John 14:11
Jesus said-
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the father, in me: or else believe me for the works' sake.

Regardless of my personal beliefs. This is the main reason that I would not want to live in a world that excluded the Christian religion.

It encourages much hope and good works for many.

The New Testament is the best instruction that I have seen, that is publically accepted, of putting one in touch with the positive forces within one's self.

Dan are you converting to Christianity?

Come baaaack to the dark side Dan the force is much stronger :D

Dog,

You have really got to learn to stop being stupid. I'm sorry - thats the lightest way I can say it.

Anyway,

I respect your post, Dan - and although, there are a number of reasons why I accept Christianity...what you brought up in your post is one of the most fundamentals of the Christian faith.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

The New Testament is the best instruction that I have seen, that is publically accepted, of putting one in touch with the positive forces within one's self.

I disagree. Whilst I understand and do agree that certain parts, like the one you quoted, do offer a sense of connection with your innerself, on the whole its too clouded in ancient metaphor forcing you to percieve it how you want to.

I actually believe people like Anthony Robbins and his "Get the Edge" audiosets and seminars have a vastly more powerful affect on encouraging growth within your innerself, These are publically accepted across the whole of America and the rest of the world, and have gone towards helping so many people.

I think the interesting point to note however is that Anthony Robbins is a devouted Christian. I believe that he too see's what you see in these texts, the passion, the power & the energy that comes from the Bible however he has taken that a step forward and brought it to the modern day by using modern terminology and new found ways of encouraging the core principles found in the Bible.

In short - I dont believe the Bible is the most efficient method of getting across the postive feelings inside ones self.

Yeah lets just ignore that every single religion in the world espouses the "Treat others well" doctrine. It's far more fun to create factions so they can violate this core priciple and murder each other for no reason...

Originally posted by mad dog
Dan are you converting to Christianity?

Come baaaack to the dark side Dan the force is much stronger :D
=========================================

Mad dog, I do accept many of the principals of several religions and beliefs.
I point out the New Testament mainly because it is so established.
As Loki points out, many programs have been developed for positive development of ones' self. I think the first I was exposed to many years ago was The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peel. I was actually suprised later to find out he was a minister.

As I have stated before, in disagreement with some others, that I believe positive prayer stimulates positive actions in the natural order of things.

True, as 500 pointed out, religious wars have been fought.
Wars have also had participants that had no religious belief.

We have problems with the Arab countries at this time. I believe that if the Arabs had not been treated quite badly for centuries by anglo people that the fundamental religious leaders would be hard pressed to find so many followers in their war against infidels.
I also, in no way condone what is occuring now. I merely point out a long history of bad anglo/arab interaction to which we must now pay the piper, so to speak.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Dog,

You have really got to learn to stop being stupid. I'm sorry - thats the lightest way I can say it.

YOU'RE AN A** that's the simplest/lightest way I can put it!!!! I put a big smilly behind my post and I'm sure Dan new I was joking also. I believe Dan and I see life pretty much in the same light, we have posted about this in other areas. Once again you use your fingers without knowing what is going on. Next time before you try and slam me read the whole post and crasp atleast alittle of what I'm writting, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!

1st let me clear this up you did have a good idea I was joking, correct?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Mad dog, I do accept many of the principals of several religions and beliefs.

As do I, infact it wasn't all that long ago I posted something about maybe all religions hold a shred of how life should be lived. The problem comes when people twist things and instead of practicing the religion they use the religion.


I point out the New Testament mainly because it is so established.
As Loki points out, many programs have been developed for positive development of ones' self. I think the first I was exposed to many years ago was The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peel. I was actually suprised later to find out he was a minister.

I have also agreed with you on this, infact I believe it was you and I that said if Jesus was real{even just a plain man} then his message would have been a good 1.

As I have stated before, in disagreement with some others, that I believe positive prayer stimulates positive actions in the natural order of things.

I agree with this also, this can work both ways though. You can have a group of positive people that generate positive power. On the other hand you can have a group of negative people that generate negative power. Example; I was watching a show about the skin heads, they have nothing but negative vibes and everyone that goes near them ended up the same way. Even a peacefull black person that was trying to explain different things to them ended up getting violent.

Yes, mad dog, I always appreciate your sense of humor.
I too believe we view many things in a similar manner.
Please excuse the fact that sometimes I direct my comments to you so that others may read and understand my stand/view on a particular situation.

I have never taken anything you have written as an insult. IMO you have a very good way of writtings things, I only wish I could get my point accross as well as you do.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You have really got to learn to stop being stupid.

Your Christian approach to addressing a light-hearted joke is astounding in it's eloquence and politeness.

Evakian

Perhaps we Christians have become a bit over-sensitive due to posters like Freethinker and 500 pound gorilla who seem unaable to post on the subject sans insults. Maybe Jere/Jere over-reacted but I can understand why.

While we are speaking of the Christian religion, I would like to bring up another beneficial aspect of the faith.

A true Christian person learns to not worry. If a problem arises it is turned over to Jesus to handle. This frees the person up to turn themselves toward constructive endevers without the anchor of mental strife and negativity, both of which are henderences to a natural solution.

A benefit that is sometimes hard for a non-religious person to master. Most of us, by nature, must feel that we alone are in charge of our immediate environment-therefore must worry and fret, sometimes angrily, until we alone work out the problems we face.
It must be a secure feeling to completely believe that we are not alone in our human experience and do not have to completely carry the weight alone. What a marvelous, psychological, advantage.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
While we are speaking of the Christian religion, I would like to bring up another beneficial aspect of the faith.

A true Christian person learns to not worry. If a problem arises it is turned over to Jesus to handle. This frees the person up to turn themselves toward constructive endevers without the anchor of mental strife and negativity, both of which are henderences to a natural solution.

A benefit that is sometimes hard for a non-religious person to master. Most of us, by nature, must feel that we alone are in charge of our immediate environment-therefore must worry and fret, sometimes angrily, until we alone work out the problems we face.
It must be a secure feeling to completely believe that we are not alone in our human experience and do not have to completely carry the weight alone. What a marvelous, psychological, advantage.

You sound like youre half way down the slide. lol
Not meant to be derogative. Normaly Dad is at the bottom of the slide waiting to catch you.

With that said Dan how much will a person get done when they just run around and say don't worry be happy? I'm not putting your idea down and I do agree somewhat, but on the other hand when an individual loses personal responsibility the rest of us pay a price. I'm also Not saying that every Christian does this but some do. I hope you understand what I'm saying, it is nice to think that someone is watching over us but on the other hand we need to take on personal responsibilty 1st.

Frogger; My joke was in no way insulting to any Christian infact I even said Christians are the good guys and the rest of us are bad{dark side}. Jere likes to spout off at me from time to time without taking time to read what I write or for that matter even look at who I directed it too.

Originally posted by Frogger
Maybe Jere/Jere over-reacted but I can understand why.

That is the way Jere sometimes/often reacts, it is neither 'Christian', nor polite, nor wise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mad dog
[B]With that said Dan how much will a person get done when they just run around and say don't worry be happy? I'm not putting your idea down and I do agree somewhat, but on the other hand when an individual loses personal responsibility the rest of us pay a price.
=========================================
The intent of my post was to say that unnecessary worry and strife hender the problem solving equation.
Someone truly following the New Testament would be responsible for their own actions by following the other teachings in the text.

Maybe we would be better off with the "don't worry, be happy" philosophy as an approach to problem solving.

As you can see I believe there is a lot of psychology hidden in the New Testament. Better understood as a way of life, rather than a religion, if there is a difference.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Maybe we would be better off with the "don't worry, be happy" philosophy as an approach to problem solving.

I dont understand how that actually relates to any form of problem solving, bar the obvious fact that its easier to do something when your happy about doing it than when your not.

I also fear that the Christian methology of giving their worries, problems and the like over to Jesus will deny change or adaption. Much the same way that if a child spills his juice and their mother cleans it up. The child doesnt learn to stop spilling the juice because it knows the mother is always their to clean up. Just the same as if a person gets used to shouldering off all their problems to Jesus, they will continue to hit those same problems.

When we are faced with problems that we alone have to solve, we are forced to adapt & evolve our understandings. This embrace of change allows us to further increase our knowledge and benefit in future situations.

As you can see, I am not a great fan of this "crutch" like mentality that religion often encourages.

If I may step in and say something about the problem solving discussion.
Christians should still deal with their own problems, only having faith enough in God to get them through their problems.
This in turn frees them of stress to a point.

It doesn't take away all of the stress, but does take enough away to allow them the emotional frame of mind needed, to help others with thier problems as well as take care of their own.

Generaly when someone teaches people how to relieve the stress in their lives it is to help them improve their life style.
Everyday stress is reduced and the person is looking for more to do, to replace it.
Or the person is free of random stress generated by everyday life and this in turn gives them the emotional stance to take on more stressful interest.
So they do things such as move up the ladder in their job, or open a successful
business. They get wealthy or rich and have everything in life they ever wanted.

Christians have the same advantage, but they use it in the name of the lord to help others. Thus, dealing with their problems and helping others with their own and having everything in life they ever wanted.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
I dont understand how that actually relates to any form of problem solving, bar the obvious fact that its easier to do something when your happy about doing it than when your not.
=======================================
Dan:
I suppose because I do acquire solutions to my problems without the mental anguish of worry. I simply turn over the problem to my subconcious and do my part to acquire a solution. Many people that I know can not do this. They wring their hands, worry, get angry and speak that they will never get out of the situation. Acting like the whole world will fall in on them.
========================================

I also fear that the Christian methology of giving their worries, problems and the like over to Jesus will deny change or adaption. Much the same way that if a child spills his juice and their mother cleans it up. The child doesnt learn to stop spilling the juice because it knows the mother is always their to clean up. Just the same as if a person gets used to shouldering off all their problems to Jesus, they will continue to hit those same problems.
=========================================
Dan:
You must remember my belief, that when we have a clear positive attitude and trust that a positive solution will come of the problem that natural forces go into effect to help us acquire the solution. This has helped me in my personal life many times. The solution usually comes from left field in a way that I did not expect. Knowing the solution is coming allows me to calmly pursue, and recognize, avenues that I may not have noticed had I been in a worried, upset, desperate, state.
===================================

When we are faced with problems that we alone have to solve, we are forced to adapt & evolve our understandings. This embrace of change allows us to further increase our knowledge and benefit in future situations.

As you can see, I am not a great fan of this "crutch" like mentality that religion often encourages.
===========================================
Dan:
To face a problem alone when assistance is available is kind of like going fishing without any bait. You may eventually snag a fish with an empty hook, but can have the fish come to you with the right bait.
O.K., poor example! But, I do not see this as a crutch, but even a crutch has a purpose at times.

Loki, I am merely saying that the New Testament has teachings that some people may not have been otherwise exposed to.
You and I are well read. Many are not. I know people that never finished grammar school. They will never be exposed to the great thinkers of history. They cannot call upon, and learn from, the lessons of history that we take for granted.
I believe that being exposed to the principals of writings like the New Testament gives them an opportunity to tap into natural resources that would not have been available to them otherwise.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
The intent of my post was to say that unnecessary worry and strife hender the problem solving equation.

Agreed

Someone truly following the New Testament would be responsible for their own actions by following the other teachings in the text.

okay

Maybe we would be better off with the "don't worry, be happy" philosophy as an approach to problem solving.

I think I understand what you are saying, don't let the problem get the best of you. Adding more stress to a problem will only make it worse?

As you can see I believe there is a lot of psychology hidden in the New Testament. Better understood as a way of life, rather than a religion, if there is a difference.

Aren't there religions that allready do this, I think the word I'm looking for is how to find your personal zen?

Originally posted by mad dog
Aren't there religions that allready do this, I think the word I'm looking for is how to find your personal zen? [/B]
=====================================
Sure there are.
I used Christianity as an example because most of us in this country are more familiar with its doctrines.

One point that I hope to make is that as I have studied religions they seem to be some of the first self-help instructions.
Some better than others.

When I study a religion I try to examine the original intent of the original founder(s), not what it was necessarily turned into by people with various ideals.

We tend to study historys great thinkers, and often quote them,
I believe that many of religions original founders were also great thinkers, trying to express ideas in a form that would be accepted by the peoples of their time. A time when gods and godesses were an accepted reality. Therefore giving credibility/acceptability to ideas and principals. A sort of disguised teaching.

To completely dismiss the study of all religions would be to shelter ones' self from a vast amount of knowledge that must be sifted thru for its content.

The personal zen you speak of seems to be a combination of all knowledge available, used personally, in a manner that works for the individual. What is good for me is not necessarily good for others. It seems to come from bits and pieces of lifes experiences and acquired knowledge from others.

It seems that various keys have been spread out through-out man's acquired knowledge. The seeker must spend time sifting through the history of ideas and experiences until a picture begins to form from the mixture.

I used the New Testament as an example of study because it comes from a time when the teachings of Jesus was familiar with previous oral histories from a period of time lost to us now. A time when a written history is not available for us to study now.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

When I study a religion I try to examine the original intent of the original founder(s), not what it was necessarily turned into by people with various ideals.


This is an interesting point because Christianity to me was created by a number of people with various ideals. If we are to believe the Bible then the True founder of Christianity is God, So im curious, What do you feel was God's original intent?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
This is an interesting point because Christianity to me was created by a number of people with various ideals. If we are to believe the Bible then the True founder of Christianity is God, So im curious, What do you feel was God's original intent?
=======================================

I also believe the Christian religion of today was created by a number of people.
A collection of many viewpoints, with many insights.
I cannot say I "believe the Bible" as a whole. I try to seek out those viewpoints that make sense in todays society. I do not pick only those that I necessarily agree with to promote my own philosophy, but that seem to fit into the gig-saw puzzle of written history of human experience.

We, sometimes, are guilty of confusing god's intent with man's exploration for answers.
We would first have to establish what that individual views as god.
There is probably no single god as many people invision.
The closest that we could call god, is probably located somewhere in the relm of quantum physics, "the face man can never look upon." The "force" of which we are all part of and linked together with. Probably in wave form.

I believe that to utilize this force one must have a focal point. To some it is religion, to others it is meditation, to yet others it is the central belief in self so strongly that they place no limitations upon their abilities.

Expectations of no limitations is the key.

Regardless of the method chosen, assuming that all things are possible will "move the mountain,"so to speak.

The anchors of self-limitation is possibly the most detrimental factor to a person's progress that one can impose upon one's self. I do some things simply because I do not know that I cannot do them.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
When I study a religion I try to examine the original intent of the original founder(s), not what it was necessarily turned into by people with various ideals.


I agree with what your are saying about everything else, I just wanted to touch on this part. My 1st question when I start to study a religion is.......which is original what has been added/subtracted/lost/madeup? This can be very hard to find out and sometimes you have to compare the religion to the time in history when it seemed to show up. Like I have said in the past I am a studying Druid for over 10yrs. now. There are hundreds of stories out there about them, alot are very false some could be close and others just make a person wonder. Ceaser wrote many stories of the Druids while at the same time in history so didn't the monks. Allthough some of what Ceaser wrote may have been true we also know he liked to stretch the truth in alot of his wirttings. He liked to paint himself as a hero. The monks on the other hand had no reason to lie, but a person can take info from both and learn some truths. Studying one religion can be very confussing, but studying and putting a bunch of religions together can be a down right pain in the butt :)

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
=======================================

I also believe the Christian religion of today was created by a number of people.
A collection of many viewpoints, with many insights.
I cannot say I "believe the Bible" as a whole. I try to seek out those viewpoints that make sense in todays society. I do not pick only those that I necessarily agree with to promote my own philosophy, but that seem to fit into the gig-saw puzzle of written history of human experience.

We, sometimes, are guilty of confusing god's intent with man's exploration for answers.
We would first have to establish what that individual views as god.
There is probably no single god as many people invision.
The closest that we could call god, is probably located somewhere in the relm of quantum physics, "the face man can never look upon." The "force" of which we are all part of and linked together with. Probably in wave form.

I believe that to utilize this force one must have a focal point. To some it is religion, to others it is meditation, to yet others it is the central belief in self so strongly that they place no limitations upon their abilities.

Expectations of no limitations is the key.

Regardless of the method chosen, assuming that all things are possible will "move the mountain,"so to speak.

The anchors of self-limitation is possibly the most detrimental factor to a person's progress that one can impose upon one's self. I do some things simply because I do not know that I cannot do them.

I feel like the rat in the maze after reading that. Did we get the cheese Dan?
Thats the best description I have ever heard from someone outside of the religion itself. You rival the best atheist philosophers of our time. If I do say so.
But you will never fully understand the rat, until you become one.

Originally posted by Inviolable
I feel like the rat in the maze after reading that. Did we get the cheese Dan?
Thats the best description I have ever heard from someone outside of the religion itself. You rival the best atheist philosophers of our time. If I do say so.
But you will never fully understand the rat, until you become one.
=============================================

Thank you for your response.
A question: Why would I be atheist simply because I believe the supreme force in the universe does not match your personal view, of what we term god, consists of?
Would not a rose still be a rose, regardless of the description of which none of us truely know, of the physical charactaristics?

I do not strive to understand the "rat" in your example.
I strive to understand myself and my relationship to all-that-is.

I do not attempt to speak to anyone in an attempt to have them withdraw from their religion. Nor, do I attempt to encourage a nonreligious person join any religion.
I merely view the teachings of of the original prophets to man in a different perspective. A perspective without the religion.

My message, of personal belief, is that the same benefits seem to be available to everyone. Not limited to a particular group, cult, or following, regardless of which name they go by.

This brings up the question, is it better to be spiritual or religious? Some folks feel that the only way to be religious is to join a certain group and follow there teachings. A spiritual person can believe but they don't need to follow a forum.

Dan,

My apologies for assuming to much. I should have ask, before I made the comment that you are atheist.

It does seem to me that you are onto something and the search to enlighten yourself does seem to be in the direction of research. You write as if youre witnessing your own research in a 3rd person perspective.
That is just another assumption.

What I do see that intrigues me.
It is very intelligent and well thought out.
Your view is distorted but your meaning is claer.
You paint a picture of a religion like Picasso painted his master pieces.
You are explaining the truth of the word in a tangible way.
It is in such a way, that it could quite possibly not be done by anyone else. Yet it is clear enough for everyone to understand if they just stop and look.
In that manner you seem very close.
To what I call christianity.

Originally posted by mad dog
This brings up the question, is it better to be spiritual or religious? Some folks feel that the only way to be religious is to join a certain group and follow there teachings. A spiritual person can believe but they don't need to follow a forum.

Thats a good question mad dog.

My question is, if Dan so choses to spread his new found knowledge, what options are open to him? And what is the best way to instill in others what he has learned?

Originally posted by mad dog
This brings up the question, is it better to be spiritual or religious? Some folks feel that the only way to be religious is to join a certain group and follow there teachings. A spiritual person can believe but they don't need to follow a forum.
========================================

Mad dog, I would think it is on an individual basis.
Some people, by nature, do well on their own, some seem to need the support of a group.
The advantage that I see in a group setting is that on those occasions that a person is down or depressed the group can help to bring them back up again. Especially in the beginning of learning. Later that person may be strong enough to maintain on their own. Plus, in todays society some people are not exposed to fellow-ship, due to various reasons, it can be a time of sharing and comradship.
Some people are simply alone.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[Mad dog, I would think it is on an individual basis.
Some people, by nature, do well on their own, some seem to need the support of a group.
The advantage that I see in a group setting is that on those occasions that a person is down or depressed the group can help to bring them back up again. Especially in the beginning of learning. Later that person may be strong enough to maintain on their own. Plus, in todays society some people are not exposed to fellow-ship, due to various reasons, it can be a time of sharing and comradship.
Some people are simply alone.

Acouple more thoughts;

If a person does feel spiritual and decides to meet others with this feeling, will it change the true feeling? Let me try an example; Casper feels he has felt God so he goes to a church{the house of dragons}. While he is there he feels that some of their teachings are correct but other things don't make sense. So instead of speaking out he just goes with the flow. Years go by and Casper doesn't have that same warm fussy feeling anymore but he does have the church. Did he swap his true personal feeling for a feeling of belonging?

Part 2} I do agree that groups can be helpfull but in order to have a personal belief you still need to look at your inner self.

Originally posted by mad dog
Acouple more thoughts;

If a person does feel spiritual and decides to meet others with this feeling, will it change the true feeling? Let me try an example; Casper feels he has felt God so he goes to a church{the house of dragons}. While he is there he feels that some of their teachings are correct but other things don't make sense. So instead of speaking out he just goes with the flow. Years go by and Casper doesn't have that same warm fussy feeling anymore but he does have the church. Did he swap his true personal feeling for a feeling of belonging?

Part 2} I do agree that groups can be helpfull but in order to have a personal belief you still need to look at your inner self.
=========================================

In my opinion, Casper in the above example, probably never understood what he was seeking.
The inner self you speak of is the answer, the bottom line.

Go back and read the Jesus quote I opened this thread with.
As a matter of fact, read John 14:10-14.
Pay particular attention to "the father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

We did not actually hear his original words, only men's interpretation of them. But the meaning is clearly there.

Look on down at verse 26: "but the Comforter, which is the holy ghost, whom the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance"...

See the "holy ghost" as the unseen-within, the inner-self.
That which helps us accomplish.
I believe Jesus tried to tell people that it is all inside us. The ability to accomplish anything. The power, the magic, is all there to contact and master the control of.

Verse 12, he is telling them that anything he did anyone can do, even greater things, by mastering this inner-self.

Men made a religion of that which is a natural ability of nature. Added in their own fears and personal likes and dislikes.

The verses I listed above are but a few of the keys, but when understood, open doors of self awareness and accomplishment.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
=========================================

In my opinion, Casper in the above example, probably never understood what he was seeking.
The inner self you speak of is the answer, the bottom line.

Go back and read the Jesus quote I opened this thread with.
As a matter of fact, read John 14:10-14.
Pay particular attention to "the father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

We did not actually hear his original words, only men's interpretation of them. But the meaning is clearly there.

Look on down at verse 26: "but the Comforter, which is the holy ghost, whom the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance"...

See the "holy ghost" as the unseen-within, the inner-self.
That which helps us accomplish.
I believe Jesus tried to tell people that it is all inside us. The ability to accomplish anything. The power, the magic, is all there to contact and master the control of.

Verse 12, he is telling them that anything he did anyone can do, even greater things, by mastering this inner-self.

Men made a religion of that which is a natural ability of nature. Added in their own fears and personal likes and dislikes.

The verses I listed above are but a few of the keys, but when understood, open doors of self awareness and accomplishment.

We all sin.
All of us.
You will not know what Jesus is talking about until you confront your sin.
"the holy ghost" or the "inner-self" is all about sin. I suggest you read up on sin and understand it better.
It is the key to what Dan is talking about.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
In my opinion, Casper in the above example, probably never understood what he was seeking.
The inner self you speak of is the answer, the bottom line.

I think I get what you're saying, but how many times has someone changed their point of view because of outside influence?

Go back and read the Jesus quote I opened this thread with.
As a matter of fact, read John 14:10-14.
Pay particular attention to "the father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

I'll have to go back later. For now I think what you are saying is that God is in everyone and they're part of god.

We did not actually hear his original words, only men's interpretation of them. But the meaning is clearly there.

How do we know for sure anything is there, interpretations can mean different things to different folks?

Look on down at verse 26: "but the Comforter, which is the holy ghost, whom the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance"...

I'm alittle lost here, if each of us have the same God in us then why are there so many different interpretations, and extremes?

See the "holy ghost" as the unseen-within, the inner-self.
That which helps us accomplish.
I believe Jesus tried to tell people that it is all inside us. The ability to accomplish anything. The power, the magic, is all there to contact and master the control of.

1st we have to find out if Jesus was even real, If he was real then would you say his message is to use positive thought to accomplish things? Also can we really say without a doubt that we all have the ability to find the power and magic?

Verse 12, he is telling them that anything he did anyone can do, even greater things, by mastering this inner-self.

So your saying any of us could turn water to wine walk on water feed the starving with 1 piece of bread and make a blind man see? I have to disagree somewhat with this. I believe some have the power to overcome while others don't. I have yet to see a person with CP cure themselfs. Don't get me wrong Dan I respect what your saying but I still believe there are boundrys that will stop certain things.

God is nature, a tree grows big and strong then along comes a fungus. The fungus wants to live and the tree wants to live, both are gods creation, which one lives. The fungus could kill the tree or another one of gods creations could come along and kill the fungus. The fungus can't will the tree to live with it and the tree can't will the fungus to go away. The same example would ably to a human with cancer.

Men made a religion of that which is a natural ability of nature. Added in their own fears and personal likes and dislikes.

This I agree with 100% they also added people Gods and demons. This is sad because they get so caught up in a religion that they miss what reality is, and often miss-interpret feelings.

The verses I listed above are but a few of the keys, but when understood, open doors of self awareness and accomplishment.

Agreed to a point.

Sorry Dan if I wrote like an arse I'm half asleep, no disrespect intended.

Originally posted by Inviolable
We all sin.
All of us.
You will not know what Jesus is talking about until you confront your sin.
"the holy ghost" or the "inner-self" is all about sin. I suggest you read up on sin and understand it better.
It is the key to what Dan is talking about.

I don't feel that I do sin, sorry to throw a wrench in your thought. I do have a very strong inner-self and have a strong believe in a God/allmighty force/whatever.

Why do you feel that I need to beat myself with quilt to find god or innerself?

I'm not saying I don't make misstakes and screw up now and then but I would never consider anything I do a sin. I am human and humans are not perfect, according to most God allready knows this.

What do you consider sinning if you don't mind me asking?

I'll say the same to you as I did do Dan please don't think I'm being a butt head, I'm not. just trying to get a crasp on your opinion

Originally posted by mad dog
I don't feel that I do sin, sorry to throw a wrench in your thought. I do have a very strong inner-self and have a strong believe in a God/allmighty force/whatever.

Why do you feel that I need to beat myself with quilt to find god or innerself?

I'm not saying I don't make misstakes and screw up now and then but I would never consider anything I do a sin. I am human and humans are not perfect, according to most God allready knows this.

What do you consider sinning if you don't mind me asking?

I'll say the same to you as I did do Dan please don't think I'm being a butt head, I'm not. just trying to get a crasp on your opinion

Thats ok I'm not taking you as a butthead. And for once I am simply not trying to push God on you. I am trying to explain what I see in Dans post, from my perspective.

You may not understand all the sins there are. To me anything that Jesus wouldnt do is a possible sin.
Hence what Dan said about the Jesus explanation.
For you, looking simply for inner peace or "inner self" could be some what less complicated. But none the less.
It will take some research on your part or really good explanations on Dans part.

I will try and give you one example and only one example, because it is very extensive.

Number one on the list of seven deadly sins . Pride.
Pride comes in many different forms. Pride in your child, work or personal life.
Pride isnt necessarily bad to have. The most important thing is to recognize it as much as possible and see exactly how much it effects your life.
The biggest mistake made with pride is flaunting what you do. This doesn't mean in personal gain. It could be anything you do. Pride is often associated with praise in all its forms. This in turn will lead to personal gain on a subconscious level.
Simply put, don't do something because people notice. Do it because it's the right thing to do. There is more to pride but thats the basic and most well known form. So I use it as a example.

You may say thats what you are doing now. You could be right. Then again, you may not have seen for yourself what pride can do and how far it goes.

Just an example and nothing more. I would rather not debate pride.

What I am trying to say is, sins are in many different forms and control your life in many different ways.
Recognizing all of them will help anyone a great deal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mad dog
[B]I think I get what you're saying, but how many times has someone changed their point of view because of outside influence?



I'll have to go back later. For now I think what you are saying is that God is in everyone and they're part of god.



How do we know for sure anything is there, interpretations can mean different things to different folks?
============================
Dan:
I see it there because it is the closest to worded advice that I have seen work in my personal experiences/situations in life.
============================



I'm alittle lost here, if each of us have the same God in us then why are there so many different interpretations, and extremes?
==================
Dan: His use of the word comforter could be another name for that force with-in us that puts us in touch with all that is.
Not everyone is conciously in touch with it. Therefore the person is being controlled more by his/her reactions to their invironment of learning from unaware persons than listening and learning from their innerself. Add to this mix leaders of so-called religious sects that have alterior motives of power/wealth and followers can be misled.
======================



1st we have to find out if Jesus was even real, If he was real then would you say his message is to use positive thought to accomplish things? Also can we really say without a doubt that we all have the ability to find the power and magic?
=================================
Dan: To follow the teaching to a positive outcome would not hinge upon the fact that he was real or not. The words of wisdom are sufficient to stand alone. His message actually teaches many of the principles that you and I have spoken upon in the past.
To look at the words without the preconceived slant of a particular religion can help one to find new meanings in the words.
==================================

I do believe that man is capable of much without personal limitation we place upon ourselves.
==========================
Dan: agrees.
==========================



So your saying any of us could turn water to wine walk on water feed the starving with 1 piece of bread and make a blind man see? I have to disagree somewhat with this. I believe some have the power to overcome while others don't. I have yet to see a person with CP cure themselfs. Don't get me wrong Dan I respect what your saying but I still believe there are boundrys that will stop certain things.

God is nature, a tree grows big and strong then along comes a fungus. The fungus wants to live and the tree wants to live, both are gods creation, which one lives. The fungus could kill the tree or another one of gods creations could come along and kill the fungus. The fungus can't will the tree to live with it and the tree can't will the fungus to go away. The same example would ably to a human with cancer.
=======================
Dan:
You know that I am fine with disagreement.

The tree/fungus anology is good. They are not thinking creatures, as far as I know, with the ability to contact a higher power for assistance. I believe we are.
I have personally seen some cures come about that were out of the medical fields relm of expertise. I do not believe there are limits, only inexperienced humans, without all the keys to unlock all the secrets.
=========================



This I agree with 100% they also added people Gods and demons. This is sad because they get so caught up in a religion that they miss what reality is, and often miss-interpret feelings.



Agreed to a point.
===============
Dan: Maddog, I just throw things from my personal experiences out there for digestion. I do not strive for complete agreement. This way I learn from the experiences/views of others.
I am glad that you are a thinker. They are far between.
Thanks.

Inviolable, I am glad to see that you can look at things in different perspectives/angles. This is an asset for you.

When you were speaking to maddog on sin I was thinking.
I like the colloquial definition of sin which is something like: Any thought, word, or act, which causes harm to oneself or to others.

Especially the thought sin, because this is the direct link to our innerself, the direct link to all that is. Any thoughts of a negative nature are detrimental to our well being and natural progression.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Thats ok I'm not taking you as a butthead. And for once I am simply not trying to push God on you. I am trying to explain what I see in Dans post, from my perspective.

I didn't think you were, Dan can raise some interesting thoughts, hey?

You may not understand all the sins there are. To me anything that Jesus wouldnt do is a possible sin.

okay

Hence what Dan said about the Jesus explanation.
For you, looking simply for inner peace or "inner self" could be some what less complicated. But none the less.
It will take some research on your part or really good explanations on Dans part.

Maybe I was lucky and just happened to fall on my inner-spirit? I try not to complicate what I feel with how others preach. This is not ment as an insult, I'm just saying I have found an inner-self so why should I follow another mans intepretation?

I will try and give you one example and only one example, because it is very extensive.

Number one on the list of seven deadly sins . Pride.
Pride comes in many different forms. Pride in your child, work or personal life.
Pride isnt necessarily bad to have. The most important thing is to recognize it as much as possible and see exactly how much it effects your life.
The biggest mistake made with pride is flaunting what you do. This doesn't mean in personal gain. It could be anything you do. Pride is often associated with praise in all its forms. This in turn will lead to personal gain on a subconscious level.
Simply put, don't do something because people notice. Do it because it's the right thing to do. There is more to pride but thats the basic and most well known form. So I use it as a example.

You may say thats what you are doing now. You could be right. Then again, you may not have seen for yourself what pride can do and how far it goes.

Interesting, pride should be something that compliments a person. When a person "has to much pride" are they not changing pride into selfishness?

Just an example and nothing more. I would rather not debate pride.

okay

What I am trying to say is, sins are in many different forms and control your life in many different ways.
Recognizing all of them will help anyone a great deal.

I don't think there are all that many sins, I can lump all "sins" into one. Anything that harms is a sin against the greater power. I'll try to explain, If I kill some on purpose knowing that it is wrong that is a sin. If I own an industrial company and dump toxic waste in a river that is a sin. I feel that man made religions changed sins to feelings of quilt, make the people feel they have done wrong , this inturn keeps them under the finger{so to speak}. just a thought

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

Dan:
I see it there because it is the closest to worded advice that I have seen work in my personal experiences/situations in life.

I can go along with this, Jesus would have had a good message.


Dan: His use of the word comforter could be another name for that force with-in us that puts us in touch with all that is.
Not everyone is conciously in touch with it. Therefore the person is being controlled more by his/her reactions to their invironment of learning from unaware persons than listening and learning from their innerself. Add to this mix leaders of so-called religious sects that have alterior motives of power/wealth and followers can be misled.

Very interesting, this is exactly how I feel. I never felt spiritual until I got away from the church. Although while in the service I did enjoy going to the chaplains service. The chaplain talked more about life, he didn't preach about a god he never met. I had alot of respect for that person and felt he had a real message.



Dan: To follow the teaching to a positive outcome would not hinge upon the fact that he was real or not. The words of wisdom are sufficient to stand alone. His message actually teaches many of the principles that you and I have spoken upon in the past.
To look at the words without the preconceived slant of a particular religion can help one to find new meanings in the words.

I think I got what your shooting at, It's not the messenger that is all that important its the message.


Dan:
You know that I am fine with disagreement.

The tree/fungus anology is good. They are not thinking creatures, as far as I know, with the ability to contact a higher power for assistance. I believe we are.
I have personally seen some cures come about that were out of the medical fields relm of expertise. I do not believe there are limits, only inexperienced humans, without all the keys to unlock all the secrets.

I believe all things have a spirit ours may be more advanced??? I also agree about some unexplained cures happening {seen it happen also}.

Maybe some don't have the key to unlock there personal power or maybe there are limits. Take the guy with a broken back spinal cord is cut, he will not walk there is a limit. Now take the guy with a bad spinal cord but not cut. He still can't walk but he possibly could someday with the proper train of thought exercise and diet. I know many people with CP they probably have the biggest life foce{spirit} I've ever seen, but they still can not cure their ill. This opens up the question does the disease or the person have the stronger will? I hope I'm not confussing you with my thought, it's hard for me to explain.



Dan: Maddog, I just throw things from my personal experiences out there for digestion. I do not strive for complete agreement. This way I learn from the experiences/views of others.
I am glad that you are a thinker. They are far between.
Thanks.

On a scale from 1 to 10 of agreement I would say we are close to atleast an 8 or higher. I am a thinker but I'm a horrible writter, so explains the confussing questions :)

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
When you were speaking to maddog on sin I was thinking.
I like the colloquial definition of sin which is something like: Any thought, word, or act, which causes harm to oneself or to others.

Especially the thought sin, because this is the direct link to our innerself, the direct link to all that is. Any thoughts of a negative nature are detrimental to our well being and natural progression.

Holy cow batman, I just read this, your thoughts about sin. It's what I wrote to Inviolable in my post to him. I'd be interested in his reflection on what is sin.

Inviolable if you don't mind could you list the sins? you don't have to explain just list what type of sin that would make God upset.

Originally posted by mad dog
Holy cow batman, I just read this, your thoughts about sin. It's what I wrote to Inviolable in my post to him. I'd be interested in his reflection on what is sin.

Inviolable if you don't mind could you list the sins? you don't have to explain just list what type of sin that would make God upset.

I would be happy to list the sins for you, but.
Sins are not categorized in that way. In very much the same way Dan is thinking what you are saying to me, recognizing sins compliments the effect.
I chose pride and the seven deadly sins as an example because everyone can associate with, the seven deadly sins.
Think of what Dan is saying in graph form. Sin would be 1/25 of the pie chart.
Now take sin and place it in its own graph. Guilt would be 1/8 of that on the sin pie chart.
Your life shouldnt be controled by guilt.
In retrospect, guilt would be a sin.
Sins are what people do that make them something they shouldnt be.
Guilt can make people do just as many bad things as pride or any other sin.

There are verses in the bible about sin and I will be happy to list the ones I think will help you best, to understand me.
However that will take some research on my end. So I will have to get back to you on that.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Inviolable, I am glad to see that you can look at things in different perspectives/angles. This is an asset for you.

When you were speaking to maddog on sin I was thinking.
I like the colloquial definition of sin which is something like: Any thought, word, or act, which causes harm to oneself or to others.

Especially the thought sin, because this is the direct link to our innerself, the direct link to all that is. Any thoughts of a negative nature are detrimental to our well being and natural progression.

Bingo.

In reading verses in the bible about sin. You will find a "direct link".
A guide, if you will.
Do's and don'ts so to speak.
Understanding sin is having a map to what you call "innerself"

Maddog, I would also like to add that to get a full picture of the things that I have spoken of one would also have to read as many of the gospels that early Christians read as possible.

The Bible is limited on information because a Bishop in the 4th century circulated a letter to the churches on what gospels to consider and not consider.

There were many gospels available to early christians. Some were included in the Quran, but not the Bible, although early Christians had access to and read them. For various reasons many early writing were selected to be excluded from the Bible.

Some were exclude simply because women were portrayed as having a place in knowledge and religion and this was not accepted by the men of the time.

It is quite easy to see that much knowledge was hidden because it simply was not understood or stood against the principles of pious bastards that had their own set of rules that they wanted everyone to live by.

Many decendants of these bastards are still around to cause hate and discord today.

These are the main reasons that all information has to be sorted thru today and try to pick out what was good information and what was mis-information penned in by stupid ass people with alterior motives that led to the killing and mayhem we see today and have seen in the past.

Dan,
I don't mean to derail your point and I hope you dont take offence but I dont think the holy bible has been changed.

I know there are differences in being born again, catholic and Jewish.
I believe that at one time catholics believed just as born again cristians do.
Until, in the 4th century bishop Silvester now known as St.Silvester
was the first to begin the christianization of the common man. On a wide scale that is. At least in my opinion. I am not trying to associating your comment with Silvester. However when you mentioned the 4th century I thought of him and the theory I have. He added several rules that were meant to force people into understanding the beliefe. It may have not been him per se, but he did have a rather larg amount of influence.
Because of his supposed miracles catholics now have several rules that are not even in the bible.

I dont mean to ramble on about Catholicism but I believe poeple make to many comparisons to catholics and christianity. I also know it is suppose to be one in the same, but there is a huge grey area that people dont commonly see.

The Jewish community believes that Jesus never died. To some extent they are stuck in the old testiment.

Neither one of their views is taken directly from the holy bible.
Not all of them at least.
The holy bible is unique in its directness to the word of God.

The holy bible in whole tells Gods story exactly the way it should be told.
People may often point out that the old testament is brutal and has no bearing or point. Often times they dont see how it compliments the new testament.
Like a work of art, if you just step back you can see the whole picture.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Inviolable
[B]Dan,
I don't mean to derail your point and I hope you dont take offence but I dont think the holy bible has been changed.
=========================================

There is no offense to be taken on my part.
I am not saying the bible has been changed after it was formed from selected gospels.

History records that when the bible was made into one book that many existing gospels were not included. This decision of what to include and what not to include in the bible was made by a group of religious leaders. This is the point that much information was lost.

What we see when we open the Christian bible is what they allowed to be included and nothing else.

The bishop I spoke of I do not know the spelling of his name. It sounds out like(Apanecious).