Here is a reply to one our fellow board members ….


Originally posted by DrewM
Your hatred for America never ceases to astound me - I honestly don't know why you stay in a country you hate so deeply.

…. this is just a slightly more civilised way of saying,
”America. Love it or leave it.” What crap!

Once upon a time a group of men went down to the docks on the east coast of the North American continent. They wanted to protest against the King of England and ultimately gain independence from Britain altogether, so they dumped large quantities of British tea into the sea, at Boston. These people finally succeeded in gaining their independence and decided to call their new country the United States of America.

Naturally, this new-born country inherited all of the social and legal notions of “the Old Country” - some good, some not so good. But did these new “Americans” lay back with one thumb up their asses and the other one wrapped around their penises? No. The people set about to put things right. They got to work and implemented something called “democracy”, which means that these new citizens could criticise the "not-so-good" with the intention of making it good. Contrary to what many Americans believe, Democracy is a Greek notion, but the Americans were sure they could adapt the idea and make it work in The New World too. They took the good attributes of their inherited system and tried to improve upon them so that it would be even better than before. These “Americans” also noted that there were some less-than-proper things about the old way so they endeavoured to get them right as well. One of the many things that wasn’t really all that good was slavery. So they eventually freed the slaves and, although the vast majority of these Negroes ended up in poverty-stricken ghettos, at least the Americans made some effort to improve things along the way.

So for all of you 21st. Century Americans who don’t like to see people exercising their democratic rights by criticising what they perceive to be unfair, improper and down-right unjust - I have a message for you ….. WIPE OFF YOUR THUMBS AND GET TO WORK …. or at least support the people who are trying to change the United States into a better place for all Americans to live. The truth is that if those people take your advice and “leave”, then you’ll be forfeiting the little democracy you have left, France will repossess the Statue of Liberty, and you’ll be left in some very seriously deep shit.

Originally posted by Second-Guessing the Buffoons
Your thread is very anti American! If you don’t like America why don’t you just fuck off! :upyours:
First of all, I don’t live in the U.S. so “fucking off” makes little sense.
Secondly, it is true that I am Anti-BUFFOON by my thread is definitely Pro-American.

How could France repossess the Statue of Liberty?
It was a gift, not sold to us.

Originally posted by rendova
It was a gift, not sold to us.
Yes, that's true, but you see some of the French intermarried with the native Americans (the "Métis") and then went back to France spawning a whole new breed and giving additional birth to the expression, "French-Indian giver". :)

Originally posted by Catch 3
…. this is just a slightly more civilised way of saying,
”America. Love it or leave it.” What crap!

There is a difference, I think between those that see a country with problems that need to be fixed and work, by voting or whatever, to correct those problems and those that see a country that can't possibly do anything right and is so corrupt to be beyond hope. If you can't see your country as one possessing a basically sound system of government then perhaps you should leave and find some place more in tune with your political leanings.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
There is a difference, I think between those that see a country with problems that need to be fixed and work, by voting or whatever, to correct those problems and those that see a country that can't possibly do anything right and is so corrupt to be beyond hope. If you can't see your country as one possessing a basically sound system of government then perhaps you should leave and find some place more in tune with your political leanings.

This is exactly my point. There are people here who have not got a single positive thing to say about the US. In their eyes the US is the most corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, stealing country on earth.

I'd hazard a guess that if they left the US they'd soon be back.

Originally posted by Catch 3
The truth is that if those people take your advice and “leave”, then you’ll be forfeiting the little democracy you have left, France will repossess the Statue of Liberty, and you’ll be left in some very seriously deep shit.
Yeah, I thought that same thing...

Originally posted by DrewM
This is exactly my point. There are people here who have not got a single positive thing to say about the US. In their eyes the US is the most corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, stealing country on earth.
That's exactly right, and what, might I ask, is the benefit of staying here (outside of whoring it out for monetary gain) when these people hate everything about it? Are they trying to make it better? Am I missing something here? I ask you what POSSIBLE contribution these people can make? If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the majority of them come from poor homes, are extremely misguided, or are naively young and inexperienced. Take your pick.

Originally posted by DrewM
In their eyes the US is the most corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, stealing country on earth.

That almost exactly sums up my view of the cold, calculating Corporate oligarchy that is the US.

I for one do not have enough money to leave and relocate to a foreign country.

If I were to win a huge lottery windfall, I would leave skid marks getting far, far away from here.

America --unfortunately-- is destined in the very hear future to reap the consequences of the death and destruction of the pro-war, anti-environmentalist, anti-democratic, anti-human policies it has been following for the past 50+ years.

Maybe moreso than anything I have ever read, the words of Lee Roskin sum up how I feel about the land of my birth..........


Why I Hate America---------by Lee Roskin

I¹ve been asking myself why I hate America, why the anger rises up when I hear words about America¹s triumph over terrorism. Why am I so perverse when America is doing so much good and is being successful in making the world a better place? When the news media and solemn politicians say that we must stand united, bless America and support it¹s wars, why do I feel just the opposite. Why do I feel unpatriotic, cynical and disgusted with this country. Perhaps there is something to be learned here. Perhaps, if I, as a USA citizen, born, raised and educated here, prospered here, can discern this antipathy, it might give some indication why much of the rest of the world feels that way and that Pres. Bush and the American public seem to have no idea about.

First of all, what is America? I am not referring to the geographical entity of the USA which is quite beautiful outside the ruined cities, debased countryside and vast stretches of wasteland. There is much beauty here in the forests, shores, mountains, lakes and rivers, plains -- the physical nature of America is not what I am talking about. I am not talking about 'the American people' directly which obviously at 280,000,000 is quite diverse and multifaceted. I am also not talking directly about 'what America stands for' as far as history, principles and values which are variable and diverse from the most admirable to the most loathsome. However, I am speaking about the American people and what America stands for indirectly in that I am speaking about the American attitude. If one can believe the mass media, civic and religious leaders and politicians, the over riding attitude that Americans have about America is that it is the best place in the world, with superior citizens, leadership and morality.

In and of itself, this arrogance, bragging and smugness would not seem so hateful except for two reasons: it is based on falsehood and deception and it is based on the deprivation and diminution of people in places that are not the USA. Arrogance and bragging are not in themselves major hateful qualities but when they are coupled with cruelty, hypocrisy, cheating and savagery, they become almost unbearable. It is the glaring contradiction of the 'greatness of America' with the depredations and barbarity of America that leads one into despising the country in which one was born. Perhaps this is what many foreigners see -- the lie, the ugly lie that is so infuriating. Perhaps they see the democracy that elects venal fools, the media that controls the citizens minds, the arrogance of the rich, the degradation of the poor, the racial hatred, the religious intolerance, the debased environment -- all the wonderful and great things that God has bestowed upon his favorite people.

Perhaps many people in the world see, as I do, the evil hand of America that allows the cruelest, most repressive of regimes to survive if it serves the purposes of America while destroying others what do not benefit America -- look to the recent history of Central and South America, Asia or Africa, if you do not know what I am referring to because the catalog of hideous American intervention is very long.

And what is one to think of the slaughter of innocent civilians, the looting of natural resources, the exploitation of labor, the insults and humiliations that countries that are not America or it¹s chosen friends have to endure in the face of taunting arrogance of the superiority of American democracy, freedom, morality, wealth and intelligence. And, in deed, there is great wealth except those who are not so fortunate to share in it's distribution and there are clever people who have made clever discoveries and devices; that cannot be disputed.

There is also this 'kind of' democracy and freedom to be ignored and assumption that the FBI won¹t come calling -- you can carry your placard, write letters to the editor, sign petitions -- all for nothing. And what of this American morality, this American compassion -- I don¹t see it in the bombing, in the amassing of wealth at the expense of the disadvantaged, in the suffering around the world, for the new found interest in the liberation of women of Afghanistan. I guess that is what it is that is so infuriating: the sham, the fraud -- the country is full of hatred, violence and madness -- watch television or read your daily newspaper if you don¹t think so. And I guess that only adds to the anger: Americans will watch television or read their newspapers and magazines and see greatness and goodness while I see deception, misery, insanity, viciousness. Am I the only one?

And let¹s talk about culture, the culture of America. The mass culture, the culture that is enjoyed by the overwhelming numbers of Americans is of the worst degraded quality imaginable. In popular music, art (television and movies), cuisine, style, literature we find the trashiest, lowest and most depraved being the most popular. So this is what we have: the fantasy of the superiority of America against the reality of miserable America and the fantasy of the goodness of America against the reality of an aggressive, brutal, murderous America. Is it no wonder the country is awash in mind numbing drugs of the illegal and legal variety? Is it possible that a country can look into the vacuous face of George W. Bush and see greatness and goodness? What kind of a country kills thousands in Afghanistan but admits to nothing, that looks the other way.

What kind of a country takes advantage of a national tragedy to take away citizen¹s rights, give more money to the rich, spread fear throughout the land and at the same time engage in the most boastful and self satisfied rhetoric. That¹s what I see: lies, hatred, savagery, stupidity -- maybe that is what some other people also see but apparently they don¹t live in America."______Lee Roskin

Originally posted by DrewM
In their eyes the US is the most corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, stealing country on earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That almost exactly sums up my view of the cold, calculating Corporate oligarchy that is the US.

I for one do not have enough money to leave and relocate to a foreign country.

If I were to win a huge lottery windfall, I would leave skid marks getting far, far away from here.



It isn't all that expensive to relocate, Freethinker. Cuba is only about two hundred miles from Key West and Cubans are constantly making the trip from Cuba to the U.S.. I am sure you could do the same trip in the opposite direction.

Why not stop posting in this chat room. Sell your computer. The money you make from the sale of your computer coupled with the money you save by not paying for an internet provider should give you enough for a serviceable rowboat. If you hate the United States as much as you claim you should be willing to put up with a bit of hardship in order to get to Fidel's people's paradise.

If you are serious about going I'll bet there are some here who will chip in to give you a few bucks to help with the purchase of that boat.

Originally posted by Freethinker
That almost exactly sums up my view of the cold, calculating Corporate oligarchy that is the US.

I for one do not have enough money to leave and relocate to a foreign country.

If I were to win a huge lottery windfall, I would leave skid marks getting far, far away from here.

Well at least you have the courage of your convictions and are willing to say you would happily leave because you hate America so much. Personally I think you're nuts - but that is neither her nor there - you are perfectly entitled to have such opinions.

You could leave without too many problems - as mentioned - I think Cuba is your best bet, a communist paradise - exactly as you would like. You wouldn't need much money to live there - the country is so backwards & poor you'd be able to live like a King. Getting there would be easy & they'd welcome you with open arms. So what's stopping you? Maybe we can raise some money here on AllForums so you can realise your dreams. I'll donate.

Wow, what a diatribe, Mr. Roskin....
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
Americans will watch television or read their newspapers and magazines and see greatness and goodness while I see deception, misery, insanity, viciousness. Am I the only one?
Apparently not. You're in good company, right FT?
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
However, I am speaking about the American people and what America stands for indirectly in that I am speaking about the American attitude.
Nice sentence, Dick. IOW, you ARE speaking about the American people, but I like your attempt muddy the water with the "American attitude" quip. Oh, and for your information, you're doing it VERY directly...
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
If one can believe the mass media, civic and religious leaders and politicians, the over riding attitude that Americans have about America is that it is the best place in the world...(continued next quote)
And what's wrong with that? Is a US citizen no longer given the option to feel that way? Is it wrong? Perhaps it's only acceptable to walk around shouting, "FUCK THE USA". In the eyes of most self-ascribed "modern thinkers", doing so seems to serve as an act of patriotism. The irony lies in the fact that most naysayers do nothing to change it. Funny how that works, ay?
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
with superior citizens, leadership and morality.
This statement is duplicitous and unfair at best. I've never heard one solitary, died-in-the-wool, conservative say anything even remotely CLOSE to "we have superior citizens" or "leadership" when being compared to other civilized nations. As far as morality is concerned, well that's a nebulous comparison, anyway. If ANY other nation could exercise the power we have, the asshole "freethinkers" (i.e. the Parentis, Vidals, and Chomskys) would immediately come clamoring forward with all the grace, elegance and subtlety of a retard giving a speech on molecular physics.
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
In and of itself, this arrogance, bragging and smugness would not seem so hateful except for two reasons: it is based on falsehood and deception...
Bullshit. Your opinion, sir, nothing more - nothing less. I don't need to have my patriotism validated by you, or anyone else for that matter. If you don't like the "feel" you get while watching American TV, then change the channel. In short, STOP CHASTIZING ME BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY. It's none of your business, and last I checked, I wasn't making it your business.
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
and it is based on the deprivation and diminution of people in places that are not the USA.
Nowhere in the statement 'I love America' does it imply that Lithuania sucks. If I personally feel that my country is the greatest place on earth, then that's MY BUSINESS -- no one else’s -- and if you don't like it, then you can choose to ignore me, or you can suck my cock. Your choice, Fucker.
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
Perhaps they see the democracy that elects venal fools
Best point made by Mr. Roskin. No country is perfect, and yes, our system is corrupt in this respect.
Originally posted by Freethinker courtesy of Lee Roskin's predictable inanity
the media that controls the citizens minds, the arrogance of the rich, the degradation of the poor, the racial hatred, the religious intolerance, the debased environment -- all the wonderful and great things that God has bestowed upon his favorite people.
Love the last line. Do me a favor and show me one successful country where the poor are appreciated. And which countries don't show any form of racial hatred? Africa? Oh, how about anywhere in the Middle East for that matter? China? Russia? India? Come on, name it...

In short, countries that don't are comprised of one race, period. Same thing goes for religious intolerance, but on that note, at least we'll allow someone who practices a fucked up religion the right to do so because it's protected by OUR constitution. Yeah, we're a prime example of the intolerance and bigotry you lofty marble-shitters say we are, for sure... :rolleyes:

The funny thing is we don't go around talking shit about other nations, but when ours is verbally assaulted, we're relegated to the status of saying NOTHING unless we wish to be labeled nationalist. It's a fucking insult, and I, for one, am sick and tired of hearing just how bad we are when the people doing so could care less about our country, but use out-and-out nastiness under the thinly veiled guise of "constructively criticizing" (that's a fucking hoot) our nation to spark debate.

Good post Prae

Quite Frankly - the USA is pretty much the best place to live on earth. People are crawling out of the woodwork trying to live here - they even have a lottery to let people in - the prize is a green card.

I'm from the UK and the UK is a great place - but living here is way better than the UK. I love this country.

Some people may disagree, it's normal for people to always like home, and personal preference is totally respectable, but to say this country completely sucks is just fantasy.

At least in this country you can actually say it sucks & spew out vomit about how terrible the place is & it's ok, in far too many countries in the world if you are caught talking like that you get strung up and your balls connected to a car battery before never being seen again. I can just imagine many of these "america sucks" people crying for their mommy.

Originally posted by DrewM
I'm from the UK and the UK is a great place - but living here is way better than the UK. I love this country.
You're of a rare breed, Drew, but it's greatly appreciated from where I'm sitting. All I ask is that if you hate this country (that is ABSOLUTELY hate it), then please leave. I'm not saying that you have to love it, but for god's sake, if you only somewhat hate it, then shut up or do something to change it. No, the US isn't a perfect country - far from it, but in reality, it's afforded my family a good life, prosperity, wealth, and a pretty free lifestyle. I think it's done this for A LOT of families.
Originally posted by DrewM
Some people may disagree, it's normal for people to always like home, and personal preference is totally respectable, but to say this country completely sucks is just fantasy.
Absolutely agreed.
Originally posted by DrewM
At least in this country you can actually say it sucks & spew out vomit about how terrible the place is & it's ok, in far too many countries in the world if you are caught talking like that you get strung up and your balls connected to a car battery before never being seen again. I can just imagine many of these "america sucks" people crying for their mommy.
No doubt. As a matter of fact, I'd pay to see it.

Originally posted by Catch 3


[b]Once upon a time a group of men went down to the docks on the east coast of the North American continent. They wanted to protest against the King of England and ultimately gain independence from Britain altogether, so they dumped large quantities of British tea into the sea, at Boston.



Did the colonists "refuse to wear proper clothes" at the Boston Tea Party?

Originally posted by Frogger

It isn't all that expensive to relocate, Freethinker. Cuba is only about two hundred miles from Key West and Cubans are constantly making the trip from Cuba to the U.S..

You are probably ignorant of the fact that your Reichwing heroes have made it illegal for American citizens to travel to Cuba.

Originally posted by Frogger
Why not stop posting in this chat room. Sell your computer. The money you make from the sale of your computer coupled with the money you save by not paying for an internet provider should give you enough for a serviceable rowboat.

Why not stick one of your thumbs up your fucking ass, and the other in your mouth, and rotate. Sell your computer and become a male prostitute. Maybe you can get a job with the White House Press corps. (I mean, you know....since we're giving each other advice and all)

Originally posted by LionelHutz
If you can't see your country as one possessing a basically sound system of government then perhaps you should leave and find some place more in tune with your political leanings.
I think you may have just gone from "A" to "Z" by skipping over a whole lot of other letters in between. After all, it's hardly anyone else's business to TELL someone to "leave" and on the other side of the coin there may be those who would like to find that "place more in tune" but can't, or don't know how - nor can they be certain that it even exists. So we're back to trying to make the changes in one's own country and I certainly see nothing wrong in it. Actually, I find it admirable.

Originally posted by Freethinker
You are probably ignorant of the fact that your Reichwing heroes have made it illegal for American citizens to travel to Cuba.

Interesting, over 100,000 Americans visited cuba for a vacation last year.

Look dimwit - don't sweat the travel ban - you can just go to Canada and fly to Havana from there, or via Mexico just take your pick.

So, now we have resolved all the issues - I guess you are packing your bags right? leaving those skidmarks at the door you mentioned....What no?....Maybe you like the US a little more than you make out. I smell hypocrisy!

Another armchair revolutionary no doubt. ;)

Originally posted by DrewM
There are people here who have not got a single positive thing to say about the US. In their eyes the US is the most corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, stealing country on earth.
I understand your gripe. Fair enough. But you must also understand that SOME country simply MUST fit the description of those qualities – not to say that one country fits them all. So hypothetically speaking, what makes you so sure that the U.S. isn't one of them?

In any case, Americans should have the right to protest without being asked to leave, otherwise your boast about “freedom of speech” is a lie.

Originally posted by Catch 3
I understand your gripe. Fair enough. But you must also understand that SOME country simply MUST fit the description of those qualities – not to say that one country fits them all. So hypothetically speaking, what makes you so sure that the U.S. isn't one of them?

In any case, Americans should have the right to protest without being asked to leave, otherwise your boast about “freedom of speech” is a lie.

Well I guess you are right - in a ranked order one country must come last in those qualities.

Americans do have the right to protest and I don't remember ever asking anybody to leave. It is a valid question - if ya hate it that much why stay? It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

fyi - most protesters protest because they love the country - what I read on here though is not protest it's a systematic mindset that revolves around how the US is rotten to the core. I think that mindset is bitter, twisted, impotent & itself rotten to the core - the US has problems sure - but some people see only negatives and nothing else.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the majority of them come from poor homes, are extremely misguided, or are naively young and inexperienced.
YOUR tired, poor, huddled masses, perhaps - yearning to breathe free? To venture from their homes without a drive-by burst of automatic fire power putting an end to their lives? Lunch break at High School with sandwiches, apple pie, and a shoot-out? Begging for a solution to their plight but no-one is listening or no-one cares because you're just a ghetto child, unemployed and therefore considered "unwilling" to get a job?

To protest OR keep your mouth shut. Tough choice, eh?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I don't need to have my patriotism validated by you, or anyone else for that matter. If you don't like the "feel" you get while watching American TV, then change the channel. In short, STOP CHASTIZING ME BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY.

In over 3000 posts I have made here, I have never fowarded the slightest criticism nor chastizement of you personally for **loving your country*.

Whenever I note that America is a county run by a callous and thoroughly dishonest band of Corporate robber barons, and that it is a country **full of hatred, violence and madness**, I am not accusing you (you pathetic little whining biotch) personally of perpetrating the violence and hatred, or of being personally responsible for this country possessing those attributes......it is in reference to the way the country is being run, to the country en masse, and to the collective character of America in its existence as a nation-state.

As for your statement that you'd "pay to see" those with a dissenting political viewpoint tortured by people in other countries by having their testicles hooked to a car battery.........well, let's just say that it demonstrates you to be exactly the type of man (I use the term "man" euphemistically) I had imagined you to be.

Originally posted by DrewM
People are crawling out of the woodwork trying to live here - they even have a lottery to let people in - the prize is a green card.
It's the U.S. who sponsors it (you should have realized that) so you've just shot yourself in the foot because it's the United States who's begging people to immigrate. The advert pops up onto my screen in Swedish every time I sign onto my Yahoo account.

Press that down into your pipe and take a few puffs on it. But don't choke please.

Originally posted by rendova
Did the colonists "refuse to wear proper clothes" at the Boston Tea Party?
There is something fundamentally wrong with your brain, Rendova. You ought to see someone about it before you fall to the floor in a spasm.

Originally posted by DrewM -- posted: 01-30-2006 at 02:44 PM
.....don't sweat the travel ban - you can just go to Canada and fly to Havana from there, or via Mexico just take your pick.--I guess you are packing your bags right?

Originally posted by DrewM -- posted: 01-31-2006 at 3:24 AM
You could leave without too many problems- I think Cuba is your best bet...Getting there would be easy....I'll donate.

Originally posted by DrewM -- posted: 01-31-2006 at 03:30 AM
I don't remember ever asking anybody to leave (America)

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

You didn't *ask* anybody to leave. Ever.

At least if you're going to go with the tried-and-true refuge of rednecks since time immemorial with the --"Hey!!...why don't you just get out of my country!?!?!"-- routine, you could be man enough to own up to saying it.

Originally posted by DrewM
" ... what I read on here though is not protest it's a systematic mindset that revolves around how the US is rotten to the core."
I don't agree with you - but then we make up only two opinions in the broth, it's true.

Originally posted by Catch 3
It's the U.S. who sponsors it (you should have realized that) so you've just shot yourself in the foot because it's the United States who's begging people to immigrate. The advert pops up onto my screen in Swedish every time I sign onto my Yahoo account.

Press that down into your pipe and take a few puffs on it. But don't choke please.

Yes of course the US sponsors it - who else would manage US immigration than the US immigration dept? - I think it's you that's smoking dope. Do you think perhaps sweden should decide who gets a US green card?

The US is not begging people to immigrate. People are begging to get into the US - you have it the wrong way around. There are hundreds of thousands of people each year trying to get into the US vs maybe 2 or 3 trying to get into sweden each year.

The lottery is a way for some people to get in that would never make it otherwise.

Like it or not (clearly you don't like it - it seems to tear you up inside for some reason - jealousy perhaps?) - the US is the worlds most favorite destination, it's culture influences every place on the planet in some form & it is the dream of millions to live here.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

You didn't *ask* anybody to leave. Ever.

At least if you're going to go with the tried-and-true refuge of rednecks since time immemorial with the --"Hey!!...why don't you just get out of my country!?!?!"-- routine, you could be man enough to own up to saying it.

Yeah and at least if you are going to say you want to leave - don't come up with lame ass pussy boy excuses like you can't afford it. Admit it - you're an armchair revolutionary - all talk and nothing much else.

Originally posted by DrewM
" .... maybe 2 or 3 trying to get into sweden each year.

Some of your post was good, intelligent stuff but you'll forgive me if I only reply this this above?

"maybe 2 or 3 trying to get into Sweden each year"?

Jesus! Lord in heaven! You've got that so wrong that if I had the money I'd pay for your flight just for the pleasure of seeing your face :corn: upon arrivial in my city alone! Drew, I can't even find the words ...... ! If I give you the statistics you will surely call me a liar. You simply have to see it for yourself. Sweden is way up towards the top of the list for immigrants.

Can someone please lend Drew the money for a round-trip ticktet to Sweden? PLEASE!

Originally posted by Catch 3
Some of your post was good, intelligent stuff but you'll forgive me if I only reply this this above?

"maybe 2 or 3 trying to get into Sweden each year"?

Jesus! Lord in heaven! You've got that so wrong that if I had the money I'd pay for your flight just for the pleasure of seeing your face :corn: upon arrivial in my city alone! Drew, I can't even find the words ...... ! If I give you the statistics you will surely call me a liar. You simply have to see it for yourself. Sweden is way up towards the top of the list for immigrants.

Can someone please lend Drew the money for a round-trip ticktet to Sweden? PLEASE!

I can afford a round trip ticket to sweden and fyi - my comment was just a joke - a comment comparable to the miss-informed comments you posted about US immigration

Originally posted by Catch 3
YOUR tired, poor, huddled masses, perhaps - yearning to breathe free? To venture from their homes without a drive-by burst of automatic fire power putting an end to their lives? Lunch break at High School with sandwiches, apple pie, and a shoot-out? Begging for a solution to their plight but no-one is listening or no-one cares because you're just a ghetto child, unemployed and therefore considered "unwilling" to get a job?
You paint this picture as if it's the norm in our country. People in those situations are usually responsible for keeping themselves in those situations. With the amount of grant money, governmentally sponsored programs, and employment opportunities, I'm amazed they're comfortable with the status quo. If they're not in school, or not employed, then yes, they are "unwilling" to succeed, and yes, that IS their fault. End of discussion.

Originally posted by Catch 3
I think you may have just gone from "A" to "Z" by skipping over a whole lot of other letters in between. After all, it's hardly anyone else's business to TELL someone to "leave" and on the other side of the coin there may be those who would like to find that "place more in tune" but can't, or don't know how - nor can they be certain that it even exists. So we're back to trying to make the changes in one's own country and I certainly see nothing wrong in it. Actually, I find it admirable.

I did not TELL them to leave - I suggested they'd be happier elsewhere. I am not one of those "love it or leave it" people, but like I said, if one views their country's system as so fundamentally flawed then working for change is futile - you can't polish a turd.

Originally posted by Freethinker
In over 3000 posts I have made here, I have never fowarded the slightest criticism nor chastizement of you personally for **loving your country*.
And my comment wasn't directed at you personally. It was in response to the bone-headed comments of that jagoff in which you quoted earlier.
Originally posted by Freethinker
Whenever I note that America is a county run by a callous and thoroughly dishonest band of Corporate robber barons, and that it is a country **full of hatred, violence and madness**, I am not accusing you (you pathetic little whining biotch) personally of perpetrating the violence and hatred, or of being personally responsible for this country possessing those attributes......it is in reference to the way the country is being run, to the country en masse, and to the collective character of America in its existence as a nation-state.
"Whining Biotch"??? You're calling ME a whining biotch!?!?!? Jesus H. Christ, Chicken Little - you've got some fucking nerve. And just so we're clear; your comments regarding the corporate robber barons and our fellow Americans may not be directed at me, per say, but in that regard, I hope you realize that my statements are usually spurred by your interminable insistence on indicting our entire nation ala Noam Chomsky, or Penis Parenti.
Originally posted by Freethinker
As for your statement that you'd "pay to see" those with a dissenting political viewpoint tortured by people in other countries by having their testicles hooked to a car battery.........well, let's just say that it demonstrates you to be exactly the type of man (I use the term "man" euphemistically) I had imagined you to be.
Case in point, you little bitch. If you people were forced to live in Pakistan for a day, you'd be jerking off to pictures of the slums in Detroit, and you know it.

Originally posted by DrewM
Yeah and at least if you are going to say you want to leave - don't come up with lame ass pussy boy excuses like you can't afford it. Admit it - you're an armchair revolutionary - all talk and nothing much else.

a) Nice way of dancing around and obfuscating the fact that you lied about having never asked anyone to leave. But then I would expect nothing different from a conservative.

b) If I had the money in hand I would leave people like you (it makes me physically ill to know that racist, hypocritical, self-righteous warmongers like you are controlling the political process in this country, people who are purportedly of the same species as me) behind and move out of America today.

how long would sweden last under heavy air bombardment? Seeing as they sat there with their thumbs up their rear ends while the fins got overrun by the soviets I bet not long.

The Fins are some hearty people who I wouldnt mind having on my side n a fight, the swedes seem pretty much worthless. Except for their ability to tell other people how stupid they are, they got nothing.

Originally posted by Freethinker
a) Nice way of dancing around and obfuscating the fact that you lied about having never asked anyone to leave. But then I would expect nothing different from a conservative.
Drew's comments, which you quoted earlier, were in DIRECT response to you having already said that you wanted to leave the USA. What, are you pissed at him for suggesting methods? If you're unhappy here, and you hate this country to it's very core, then why the fuck are you here? It's seems like a logical question to me.
Originally posted by Freethinker
b) (it makes me physically ill to know that racist, hypocritical, self-righteous warmongers like you are controlling the political process in this country, people who are purportedly of the same species as me)
Okay, Dop, whatever you say...

Just for shits-and-giggles, I'll bite - what, in your estimation, makes him a "racist", or "hypocritical", or a "warmonger"? And please be thorough.

STFU and leave freethinker, go sneak across the border, its free. I bet Hugo would welcome you with open arms

Originally posted by Freethinker
a) Nice way of dancing around and obfuscating the fact that you lied about having never asked anyone to leave. But then I would expect nothing different from a conservative.

where in I honestly don't know why you stay in a country you hate so deeply. did I ask anyone to leave? Yet again you look like a total fool freethinker.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
If you're unhappy here, ....

I am unhappy only in that it sickens me to see what our current extreme rightwing government is perpetrating.....how they're doing little to nothing to halt the destruction of the environment, and how they're fucking over the American Public and killing anyone who gets in the way of their oil supply.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
....and you hate this country to it's very core, then why the fuck are you here?

Even though this is about as aggravating as it would be trying to explain to a three year old why, say, rubbing his own shit in his hair is not a good idea, I wll re-iterate what has gone before.

I lack the necessary finances to leave. It takes a great deal of money to re-locate to a country like Sweden, and it is not exactly simple to be allowed to emigrate there.

Originally posted by DrewM
where in I honestly don't know why you stay in a country you hate so deeply. did I ask anyone to leave?

See if the following statement of yours sounds familiar.

""You could leave without too many problems- I think Cuba is your best bet...Getting there would be easy....I'll donate."

Even an imbecile like you would be forced to admit that that is a defacto suggestion that I should leave the U.S.

But please; keep trying to spin your fucking way out of it, binky.

It's a hoot.

Originally posted by Freethinker
See if the following statement of yours sounds familiar.

""You could leave without too many problems- I think Cuba is your best bet...Getting there would be easy....I'll donate."

Even an imbecile like you would be forced to admit that that is a defacto suggestion that I should leave the U.S.

But please; keep trying to spin your fucking way out of it, binky.

It's a hoot.

Yeah and that was in direct response to your lame ass reasons why you couldn't leave. You are the one who said you wanted to leave not me.

See ya later armchair revolutionary boy !

Out of curiosity:

Provided you were financially capable of moving out of the country, you'd move to Sweden (if not, where)?

Yeah - he'd go to sweden because Catch3 is from sweden. Hey Freethinker maybe Catch3 can let you stay in his spare room & you can both cry into your swedish beer about the US each night.

I still think Cuba is his best option.

Originally posted by DrewM
Yeah - he'd go to sweden because Catch3 is from sweden.
In FT's defense, he said he wanted to move to Sweden well before Catch 3 got here. Why? I don't know. It must be the weather, or possibly the cuisine. No, come to think of it, I guess it's the regular altruistic roundtable sessions convened by those who collectively look to bash the US under the guise of caring.

Swedish beer? God, I hope there's no such thing.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Swedish beer? God, I hope there's no such thing. Interesting link here: A Pint-size Guide To Stockholm (http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/71/Living_In_Sweden.html)

Wow, that was interesting, Sedan. Thanks. :)

No wonder their country is so (for lack of a better word) dead.

Thank god for the EU, ay?

Originally posted by Travh20
The Fins are some hearty people who I wouldnt mind having on my side n a fight, the swedes seem pretty much worthless. Except for their ability to tell other people how stupid they are, they got nothing. Plenty of Swedish-Americans are good in a fight. Reminds me of something General Patton once said: "Many of you have in your veins German and Italian blood. But remember that these ancestors of yours so loved freedom that they gave up home and country to cross the ocean in search of liberty. The ancestors of the people we shall kill lacked the courage to make such a sacrifice and remained slaves."

Originally posted by sedan
General Patton once said: "Many of you have in your veins.....Italian blood....."
Too bad for them...

Just kidding. :D

Originally posted by Freethinker
You are probably ignorant of the fact that your Reichwing heroes have made it illegal for American citizens to travel to Cuba.



Why not stick one of your thumbs up your fucking ass, and the other in your mouth, and rotate. Sell your computer and become a male prostitute. Maybe you can get a job with the White House Press corps. (I mean, you know....since we're giving each other advice and all)

If you are not planning on returning to the United States why would you care that it is illegal to travel there. Angela Davis didn't care that it was illegal.

You were complaining that you didn't have enough money to leave the U.S. I suggested a way for you to get the money.

I don't plan on leaving the United States and if I did want to leave I have enough money to do so, so there would be no reason for me to sell my computer. Being faiarly libertarian I really can't take offense at your suggestion that I become a male prostitute. I see nothing wrong with adults selling their bodies if they so wish. Of course, if I was to become a male prostitute I would be a discriminating one and no matter how much you begged, I wouldn't give you a tumbler.

Thank you for your suggestions though.

Originally posted by Evakian
Out of curiosity: Provided you were financially capable of moving out of the country, you'd move to Sweden ?

Yes.

Tonight.

Originally posted by Frogger
If I was to become a male prostitute I would be a discriminating one

Ok.

At any rate, it's interesting to know you've been thinking it through.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
People in those situations are usually responsible for keeping themselves in those situations. ... If they're not in school, or not employed, then yes, they are "unwilling" to succeed, and yes, that IS their fault. End of discussion.
I was wrong to ever think there was hope for you.

"Cancel the rest of my appointments for today, Eva. I’m going home!"

Originally posted by Freethinker
I lack the necessary finances to leave. It takes a great deal of money to re-locate to a country like Sweden, and it is not exactly simple to be allowed to emigrate there.
You're welcomed to visit anytime and we can talk about the emigration when you get here. :)

Originally posted by Freethinker
Yes.

Tonight.

Does anyone else smell something????

Originally posted by Catch 3
I was wrong to ever think there was hope for you.
Okay, have it your way - tell me how I'm wrong.

Are you really under the impression these people can't do ANYTHING to change their situation??? If so, then that's the sickest position I can imagine assigning to a group of people in 2006. Our "ghettos" are almost completely comprised of blacks and Mexicans who you say can't change their situation because........well.........they just can't. As far as I'm concerned, that's a flat-out, racist notion. You may not think these people are capable of doing any better, but I, on the other hand, believe they can if they put their minds to it. The problem lies in them WANTING to change. Outside of that, being poor is nothing short of a self-fulfilling prophecy in which they're doomed to failure because (in your estimation) they can't do any better. Why try, right?

What's your solution? Should we send 'em bigger checks? What???

Originally posted by Catch 3
You're welcomed to visit anytime and we can talk about the emigration when you get here. :)

See Freethinker - here is your chance, if you are that serious about wanting to leave then take up Catch3 on his kind offer.

I'm guessing in reality you are just all talk.

I think the whole debate is way too focused on loving/hating a country.
Love and hate have not much to do with this ; it's more a question of political responsibility and citizenship.

The choice of staying or leaving is your personal comfort ; but whatever your decision is, you still are a citizen of this country and, because of this, you are partly responsible for your countries actions.

If you know that crimes are committed by your government, by people who were elected (not necessarily by you, but once they are in charge they are supposed to represent you anymaway), you may leave your country, but that won't change much to theses crimes.
Or you can stay and do everything to remove them from power and change your country's policy.
IMO the second choice is much more honorable.

The question is not to know if the USA are the nicest or the worst place on earth. It is to be aware of the flaws of a society and trying to make it better rather that fleeing away.

As Drew noticed, harsh criticism from the inside is usually the sign of true democracies. The places where all unhappy citizen are leaving are usually totalitary states. So you should be happy to have people criticizing the USA, and rather than dismissing their claims as anti-american, you should debate them in depth.

Originally posted by astrapol2

The choice of staying or leaving is your personal comfort ; but whatever your decision is, you still are a citizen of this country.

Not me. I already feel that I am a man without a country.......and when and if I ever get hold of enough money to relocate to another country [preferably Sweden] I intend to formally renounce my US citizenship.

I want to sever all associations --even those in the abstract-- with that faction of simpleminded, pro-war, anti-human toadies that America is overrun with........people like Drew and Decka and TravH.

You'll never leave....all talk, no balls would be my guess.

Incidentally - why don't you have your Age & From in your profile filled out?

Originally posted by DrewM
Incidentally - why don't you have your Age & From in your profile filled out?

How about if I just tell you directly.

I am --oddly enough-- from Chocolate City.

Just like you.

I am in my early fifties.

Originally posted by Freethinker
How about if I just tell you directly.

I am --oddly enough-- from Chocolate City.

Just like you.

I am in my early fifties.
You don't currently live in Chocolate City, do you? I thought you lived in Mississippi.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
You don't currently live in Chocolate City, do you? I thought you lived in Mississippi.

Maybe Mississippi has a Chocolate City.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
.... that's the sickest position I can imagine assigning to a group of people in 2006. Well, I suppose you have all the answers then! Next subject........

Originally posted by astrapol2

If you know that crimes are committed by your government, by people who were elected (not necessarily by you, but once they are in charge they are supposed to represent you anymaway), you may leave your country, but that won't change much to theses crimes.
Or you can stay and do everything to remove them from power and change your country's policy.
IMO the second choice is much more honorable.

VERY well said! This is what I've been trying to make certain people understand by my thread in the first place. Why do they think I started this thread, anyway?

Originally posted by Freethinker
How about if I just tell you directly.

I am --oddly enough-- from Chocolate City.

Just like you.

I am in my early fifties.

Did your house get flooded ?

Originally posted by Freethinker
I want to sever all associations --even those in the abstract-- with that faction of simpleminded, pro-war, anti-human toadies that America is overrun with........
This CAN be done. It is difficult but it can be done and it has been done too.

It's funny really that the most difficult part is getting the American government to "release" you.

The U.S. government produces a lot of propaganda about how “EVERYBODY” wants to live in the U.S. and become American. You can believe as much of it as you like. But the truth is that one of their biggest fears is that Americans denounce their citizenship. This scares the shit out of them because eventually it will become common knowledge that Americans are increasingly dissatisfied with the United States and “walking out”.

Here’s the snag. To become a Swedish citizen Americans MUST first denounce their American citizenship. This is because the U.S. does not want their citizens to do so. The American Embassy will put a load of psychological obstacles in your way. They will coach you, try to frighten you, and tell you that you will regret it for the rest of your life. All of this is funny really, except that they put up a public front about being so stern about “letting people IN”.

To make matters more difficult, you will have to fill in several forms that are called “LOSS of American Citizenship”. Yes! You will be perfectly willing to “GIVE UP” and to “DENOUNCE” the U.S. but they will continue making you sign papers that are called “LOSS of U.S. Citizenship”. If you succeed in filling all the forms and making your application for Swedish citizenship (a very simple formality) then you will finally be given a paper from the U.S. Embassy that states that you have a right to denounce your American citizenship. So do not despair! You will get your proof that it was you who denounced the U.S. and not that they “kicked you out”.

But they’ll still get one more stab into your ass ……. Once the papers are sent on their way and the final decree is received – you will get a “notice of loss of citizenship” and the letter will inform you that “if you feel it is unjust, you can make a repeal within 30 days”!

Originally posted by DrewM
Did your house get flooded ?

No.

Originally posted by Catch 3

The U.S. government produces a lot of propaganda about how “EVERYBODY” wants to live in the U.S. and become American. You can believe as much of it as you like. But the truth is that one of their biggest fears is that Americans denounce their citizenship. This scares the shit out of them because eventually it will become common knowledge that Americans are increasingly dissatisfied with the United States and “walking out”.


How do you make this shit up? It's incredible. If you seriously believe that then you are seriously deluded.

Originally posted by Freethinker
No.

Good - I'm glad, my house flooded and it sucked - wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Originally posted by DrewM
How do you make this shit up? It's incredible. If you seriously believe that then you are seriously deluded.
"believe it"? That's ripe. I know it. It is fact. I have represented Americans who have gone the whole gauntlet and I have been with them every step of the way - and I have all the documentation on hand.

Who's delusional now? Would you like to apologize for your ignorance or continue on your road of stupidity?

Originally posted by Catch 3
The U.S. government produces a lot of propaganda about how “EVERYBODY” wants to live in the U.S. and become American. You can believe as much of it as you like. But the truth is that one of their biggest fears is that Americans denounce their citizenship. This scares the shit out of them because eventually it will become common knowledge that Americans are increasingly dissatisfied with the United States and “walking out”.

But it will never trump the ever-fantastically fast increases in immigration. People risk life and limb illegally to get here, by the millions, annually.

Originally posted by Evakian
But it will never trump the ever-fantastically fast increases in immigration. People risk life and limb illegally to get here, by the millions, annually.

True.
But this is true for every rich country.
I think many people are fleeing away from poverty and violence rather than admiring the USA or Europe.

Originally posted by astrapol2
I think many people are fleeing away from poverty and violence rather than admiring the USA or Europe.
This is true for those people - whereas the Americans are leaving the U.S. because they want a higher degree of freedom, peace, and value of life. Everything is relative.

Originally posted by Catch 3
"believe it"? That's ripe. I know it. It is fact. I have represented Americans who have gone the whole gauntlet and I have been with them every step of the way - and I have all the documentation on hand.

Who's delusional now? Would you like to apologize for your ignorance or continue on your road of stupidity?

so you have represented an American who wants to immigrate to Sweden - big deal, that is hardly any proof of your fantastical claims. So - yes - still delusional.

Originally posted by Catch 3
This is true for those people - whereas the Americans are leaving the U.S. because they want a higher degree of freedom, peace, and value of life.
That's True!!! I read that same thing in the paper just the other day. Oddly enough, the headline read, "Americans fleeing the US in search of luscious Man Ass; Sweden rolls out the welcome mat..."

All seriousness aside, please don't lecture us on peace or freedom.

Up until ten years ago, your country didn't even have pubs, for you assholes frown upon "social drinking" like it's a plague. It's no secret that you could put amphetamine freaks to sleep with your cuisine and attitude, so please, for the love of god, give it a rest, will ya?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
That's True!!! I read that same thing in the paper just the other day. Oddly enough, the headline read, "Americans fleeing to Sweden in search of luscious Man Ass; Sweden rolls out the welcome mat..." :)

Interesting - here is a chart of immigration / emmigration in sweden. The Y axis is in 1000's

http://www.scb.se/statistik/BE/BE0401/2005A01/Immigration%20and%20emigration.gif

There are almost as many people leaving as coming in. Net in-flow is an insignificant 20,000 people a year. There will certainly be americans in that - a handful - jobs, marriage etc.

Now compare to the US, and this is just tracked legal immigration - not including the hundreds of thousands of illegal entries

Lawful permanent resident status granted = 706,827 (12x higher than Sweden)

With 1.2 million people in the system waiting on a decision.

Quite a difference to sweden. It's also worth taking into account that sweden is part of the EU and it's easy for people to move around in the EU and work in different countries. Legally moving to the US is quite hard - it's an expensive & drawn out process.

Originally posted by DrewM
so you have represented an American who wants to immigrate to Sweden - big deal, that is hardly any proof of your fantastical claims.
The above post, ladies and gentlemen, is what’s called ”getting in the last word”. Despite documented proof, he says it doesn’t matter. He’d make a hum-dinger of a prosecuting lawyer ….:D

”Your honour, the jury’s seen all the documented proof and heard all of the witnesses testimonies to the fact that the accused was 12,000 miles from the scene of the crime. But it don’t mean shit! He’s guilty because of the simple fact that I’m never wrong!”

Jesus himself wept. :)

What's your proof? Something you tell us is true because you say so isn't proof, especially when even a fool knows what you claim is nothing but rubbish.

As a side note - maybe it's US neo-nazi's that are flocking to sweden - I hear these days Sweden is the neo-nazi capital of Europe.

catch 3

It is customary, when making charges that seem to be wildly inflated to provide some sort of documentation. How dare Drew question your statement, especially when you have shown yourself to be fair minded and even handed when it comes to commenting about the United States. He was wrong to not just accept what you said for the simple reason that you said it. How dare he be so disbelieving.

fair minded and even handed

It's true, even if you don't believe it yourself, Frogger.

How about this:

If your so chickenshit scared you'd trash our freedoms, enshrined in the constitution, then get the hell out of America.

:D

Originally posted by Catch 3
But they’ll still get one more stab into your ass ……you will get a “notice of loss of citizenship” and the letter will inform you that “if you feel it is unjust, you can make a repeal within 30 days”!
I don't know, Catch. Someone renounces their citizenship, and then that country allows them to change their mind if they regret their decision?

That sounds extremely considerate to me. If you call that a "stab in the ass" I think you're trying hard to find something to criticize.

Free, there's something here that smacks of insincerety to me.

You place yourself on a different plane than the rest of the money-concerned, corporatist slaves that populate this country. It's hard to believe that your big reason for not leaving this awful place would be money!

From what Catch-3 says laborers and doctors live pretty similarly under Sweden's system. Even if you have no discernible skills and nothing to offer, it sounds like they'd take pretty good care of you there.

It's hard to believe that someone in their early 50's hasn't accumulated enough money yet to make this change.

Drew couldn’t have known that I’ve been personally involved in the immigration of Americans to Sweden, so he probably thought he could bluff his way out of a difficult situation. :D

Anyway, I’m sure that he learned a very good lesson even though his fragile pride won’t allow him to admit it. :rolleyes:

Yawn :rolleyes:

You could post that you know the moon is made of green cheese because you've personally walked on the moon & guess what? It would be about as believable....seriously.

Here's the deal - you post crap & I point out why it's crap - not that I even need to point it out - it's so damn obvious that it's crap. Then, you post more crap about how you know your crap is valid, convienently ignore all actual data posted in response & then expect people to take your word as some kind of evidence. Newsflash - Your "evidence" is only evidence of your insanity & nothing much more at this stage. Data please - not your fabricated resume.

What's the swedish word for whackjob and is it part of your surname?

Get real - crap is crap & your inside track info on disenchanted Americans flocking out of the country, all hidden by the US government for fear if revolt is certainly crap of the first order :@@:

Keep smoking the chronic. Catch ya later immigration lawyer spaceman.

ps - serving coffee & cleaning the toilets in a lawyers office doesn't constitue being involved in the case, but nice try :D

U.S. Code Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part III § 1481

§ 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions


Release date: 2004-02-11

(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—

(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or

(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or

(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or

(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or

(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001481----000-.html

Originally posted by DrewM
Here's the deal - you post crap & I point out why it's crap
Crap is not always CRAP. My comes out of my ass, yours comes out of your mouth and through your computer keys. :D :D :D

Originally posted by sedan
U.S. Code Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part III § 1481

§ 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions

.................................................. ....................
.................................................. ....................
.................................................. ....................
(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State.....................
Yes. Exactly what I said.

According to this Code, a “voluntary renunciation” of American citizenship is still considered “Loss of nationality” according to the United States.

Originally posted by Catch 3
But the truth is that one of their biggest fears is that Americans denounce their citizenship.
Say, where can I read more about this?

Actually, just tell me where you got this from in the first place.

Originally posted by Catch 3
Yes. Exactly what I said.

According to this Code, a “voluntary renunciation” of American citizenship is still considered “Loss of nationality” according to the United States. No, here is exactly what you said:Originally posted by Catch 3
To make matters more difficult, you will have to fill in several forms that are called “LOSS of American Citizenship”. Yes! You will be perfectly willing to “GIVE UP” and to “DENOUNCE” the U.S. but they will continue making you sign papers that are called “LOSS of U.S. Citizenship”. If you succeed in filling all the forms and making your application for Swedish citizenship (a very simple formality) then you will finally be given a paper from the U.S. Embassy that states that you have a right to denounce your American citizenship.In point of fact, the law states:

A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—

(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

(2) or (3) or (4) or (5) or (6) or (7).

It may be a requirement of Swedish law that an American must renounce his/her citizenship to become a Swedish national, but all that happens under American law is that when you become a Swedish national, your American nationality is lost. No messy forms or procedures are necessary.

Originally posted by DrewM
it's so damn obvious that it's crap.
The more you try to deny the truth, the more it stings you.

As I was saying ……

Giving up (renouncing) your American citizenship will be officially deemed a LOSS of citizenship. An official form is printed and filled in which is called
“CERTIFICATE OF LOSS OF NATIONALITY OF THE UNITED STATES”
This is “Form FS-348”

In addition to this form, a letter is sent to the individual stating that the LOSS of American citizenship has been “approved”.

In this letter it states that “you are entitled to appeal to the Board of Appellate Review in the Department of State with regard to the decision that you have lost your United States nationality.”

Further it states, “Your appeal must state clearly the basis upon which you claim that the Department’s holding of loss of United States nationality should be reversed.”

And it says, “If your appeal contains allegations of facts and circumstances which you did not mention when you previously presented your case, or which do not agree with allegations or admissions you have previously made, you should support the new allegations with the best evidence obtainable, in the form of copies of official records, statements from officials of the foreign government, or affidavits by person who have personal knowledge of the facts.”

All of the above quotes are accurate and true (although the underscoring and highlighting is mine), and I’m sure that anyone reading those documents would naturally believe that the person in question has had his American citizenship taken from him, against his will! The fact that he voluntarily renounced his American citizenship is completely masqueraded by the language of the official, American documented titles.

It is true that there is an additional paper called “OATH OF RENUNCIATION OF THE NATIONALITY OF THE UNITED STATES”, which must also be signed but this paper has no “FORM FS number” and is consequently of far less importance. Without this significant FS number it may possibly (very conveniently) be “misplaced” in the wastepaper basket.

Naturally, what with all the formal documentation termed ”LOSS” of citizenship, the U.S. can make up any figure they like if ever the question of renunciation comes up. 100% percent of all ex-American citizens have gone through the process of LOSING their American citizenship. So theoretically, the U.S. can claim that there has never once been an actual renunciation, although there can be doubt that they’re not quite so stupid to make such a claim. But it leaves one assuming that the only voluntary ex-Americans are those who “DEFECTED” over to the Soviet Union and became hideous, nasty, un-American, Communists. You can be sure that this is the precise notion the U.S. would love for all its’ citizens to believe.

Originally posted by Catch 3
The more you try to deny the truth, the more it stings you.

Yeah whatever :@@: I guess you feel pretty well stung then.

Originally posted by Catch 3
As I was saying ……

Giving up (renouncing) your American citizenship will be officially deemed a LOSS of citizenship. An official form is printed and filled in which is called
“CERTIFICATE OF LOSS OF NATIONALITY OF THE UNITED STATES”
This is “Form FS-348”So far, so good. The government officially recognizes that you have lost your American nationality.In addition to this form, a letter is sent to the individual stating that the LOSS of American citizenship has been “approved”.

In this letter it states that “you are entitled to appeal to the Board of Appellate Review in the Department of State with regard to the decision that you have lost your United States nationality.”This is fair. If you have voluntarily renounced your nationality, this is your chance to change your mind. If your nationality has been revoked by the State Department, this is your chance to fight their decision.Further it states, “Your appeal must state clearly the basis upon which you claim that the Department’s holding of loss of United States nationality should be reversed.”

And it says, “If your appeal contains allegations of facts and circumstances which you did not mention when you previously presented your case, or which do not agree with allegations or admissions you have previously made, you should support the new allegations with the best evidence obtainable, in the form of copies of official records, statements from officials of the foreign government, or affidavits by person who have personal knowledge of the facts.”Perfectly reasonable. If you want the State Department to reverse it's determination of your national status, you should explain why.All of the above quotes are accurate and true (although the underscoring and highlighting is mine), and I’m sure that anyone reading those documents would naturally believe that the person in question has had his American citizenship taken from him, against his will!Only if you are pre-disposed to see it that way.The fact that he voluntarily renounced his American citizenship is completely masqueraded by the language of the official, American documented titles.This is really a stretch. You seem to see some kind of nefarious intent demonstrated by the innoccuous bureaucratese employed by governments everywhere. Look, everyone receives the same certificate whether they voluntarily renounced their nationality or had it taken from them by statute. Everyone receives the same letter notifying them of their right to appeal. I suppose a different letter could be sent to those who have voluntarily renounced their nationality. It could say something like this: "We know you have renounced your nationality but would really like you to reconsider. Please change your mind and let us know ASAP. America would love to have you back."It is true that there is an additional paper called “OATH OF RENUNCIATION OF THE NATIONALITY OF THE UNITED STATES”, which must also be signed but this paper has no “FORM FS number” and is consequently of far less importance.This is only necessary if the loss of nationality is a result of U.S. Code Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part III § 1481 (a) (5). It has no function in any other circumstance.Without this significant FS number it may possibly (very conveniently) be “misplaced” in the wastepaper basket.It's unlikely that a bureaucrat who approved the certificate would 'file 13' the very paperwork that caused him/her to do so. Downright unnatural behavior for that kind of animal. Also, I found this in an article about taxes and renunciation from BNATAX Management (http://www.bnatax.com/tm/insights_bruce.htm): "Existing practice in an oath of renunciation procedure is to file one original with the Consular Officer at the Embassy and a second with the IRS Service Center in Philadelphia." I've never heard of the IRS 'misplacing' any tax-related documents.Naturally, what with all the formal documentation termed ”LOSS” of citizenship, the U.S. can make up any figure they like if ever the question of renunciation comes up. 100% percent of all ex-American citizens have gone through the process of LOSING their American citizenship. So theoretically, the U.S. can claim that there has never once been an actual renunciation, although there can be doubt that they’re not quite so stupid to make such a claim. But it leaves one assuming that the only voluntary ex-Americans are those who “DEFECTED” over to the Soviet Union and became hideous, nasty, un-American, Communists. You can be sure that this is the precise notion the U.S. would love for all its’ citizens to believe. I suppose it is possible that there is some massive government effort involving maliciously-worded forms and disappearing documents designed to propagandize the American people into believing that no one ever renounces their citizenship. But since, as you point out, it would be stupid to make this claim I don't know why anyone woud waste their time doing so. This contention looks like nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

What sort of people deny truth and even their own knowledge? Liars and Revisionists. :D

What sort of people make stuff up? - Idiots perhaps.

Catch - you have never offered any proof of your cliams beyond you working on an immigration case. I am not sure how that would give you inside info on "secret US actions" - but please - for once drop the coy remarks, stop avoiding perfectly reasonable arguments & provide your proof.

If you have no proof - time to move on to a new topic & chalk this one up to mission not accomplished on your part.

Originally posted by DrewM
beyond you working on an immigration case.
Not one - Three. And your denial of documented fact is equally astounding. :confused: Or perhaps you don't really know the definition of the word "LOSS"? :D It's that simple.

Ok - three, but where are these facts you keep talking about? This is what I keep asking for over & over & this is what you never provide.