Originally posted by sedan
I suppose it is possible that there is some massive government effort involving maliciously-worded forms and disappearing documents designed to propagandize the American people into believing that no one ever renounces their citizenship.
Yes. It is possible, even probable. To what extent is another question but that's only part of the real issue.

You may think that officially calling a voluntary denunciation a ”loss of citizenship” is nothing to get upset about, that’s OK too. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

If it were me I don’t know if it would matter, though it probably would not. But it definitely is emotionally upsetting for these American guys, and I respect their feelings.

Originally posted by Catch 3
Yes. It is possible, even probable.Only if you believe the IRS destroys tax-related documents. To what extent is another question but that's only part of the real issue.Sorry, I thought that was the real issue.You may think that officially calling a voluntary denunciation a ”loss of citizenship” is nothing to get upset about, that’s OK too.Denunciation is not a loss of citizenship. I can denounce my citizenship all I want without losing it. Renunciation is, by definition and statute, 'a loss of citizenship'. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.Thanks.If it were me I don’t know if it would matter, though it probably would not. But it definitely is emotionally upsetting for these American guys, and I respect their feelings. Why is it upsetting to be told that renunciation is 'a loss of citizenship'? Is it upsetting to be told that a divorce is the end of a marriage? No. It is the divorce that is upsetting, not the meaning of the word 'divorce'.

Drew

You have to take what catch 3 says on faith. After all, what axe does he have to grind. He is simply giving the true, unvarnished facts that are kept from the American public.

Americans are renouncing their citizenship and moving to Sweden in droves. Entire neighborhoods are being depopulated as Americans renounce their citizenship and board planes for Scandinavia on a daily basis. Look around you. Are any neighbors mysteriously missing from the local block party? They have emmigrated to Sweden. Is there an empty house in your neighborhood? The inhabitants left for Sweden.

Why can't you just believe catch 3? There are so many expatriot Americans in Sweden that they are thinking of adding a field of stars on a blue background to their flag.

After all, catch 3 wouldn't exaggerate.

Originally posted by Frogger
.....catch 3 wouldn't exaggerate.

Judging from the contents of your last post, if he should ever decide to try his hand at exaggeration, you would be the person to go to for lessons.

Originally posted by sedan
Is it upsetting to be told that a divorce is the end of a marriage?
No. But it is upsetting if the divorce is the result of your wife's infidelity and yet in court she claims the divorce is the result of you beating her up, when in fact, you never once laid a hand on her.

Would you not want the divorce record to be set straight? Naw. I'm sure it would be alright for you to have people think you have a vilolent, brutal temperament - even though you don't.

Originally posted by DrewM
where are these facts you keep talking about? This is what I keep asking for over & over & this is what you never provide.
The last time we had a disagreement and I encouraged you to get in touch with FACTS (the annual number of immigrants to Sweden) you said, It doesn't matter.

So even the slightest of effort on my part to furnish you with proof of anything is no longer on my list of priorities. You’ve only got yourself to blame for that.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Judging from the contents of your last post, if he should ever decide to try his hand at exaggeration, you would be the person to go to for lessons.
Well actually, I'm enrolled in his 101 evening class but I'm not doing very well..... He is truly the master, eh! :D :D :D

Originally posted by Catch 3
No. But it is upsetting if the divorce is the result of your wife's infidelity and yet in court she claims the divorce is the result of you beating her up, when in fact, you never once laid a hand on her.Fantastic! Now the receipt of a letter notifying you of your right to appeal the loss of your nationality is analogous to hearing perjured testimony alleging spousal abuse! I am devastated by the ruthless clarity of your logic!

Originally posted by sedan
Fantastic! Now the receipt of a letter notifying you of your right to appeal the loss of your nationality is analogous to hearing perjured testimony alleging spousal abuse! I am devastated by the ruthless clarity of your logic!
So you think the "analogous divorce" is in reference to the "notification" now, is that it? I recon that if your brain would be transplanted into a bird the poor thing would fly backwards - as you obviously read that way.

Originally posted by Catch 3
So you think the "analogous divorce" is in reference to the "notification" now, is that it? I recon that if your brain would be transplanted into a bird the poor thing would fly backwards - as you obviously read that way. Very amusing. You paint yourself into a corner and shout insults at the person standing by the door. I know I shouldn't laugh at you, but it is pretty damn funny!

Originally posted by sedan
Fantastic! Now the receipt of a letter notifying you of your right to appeal the loss of your nationality is analogous to hearing perjured testimony alleging spousal abuse! I am devastated by the ruthless clarity of your logic!

Sedan;

I think you are getting away from the pertinent point that Catch is trying to show you........

He is simply saying that it seems very likely that the US beaurocracy has been purposely configured in such a way that anyone reading documents concerning a US citizen's volutary renunciation of citizenship would be left with the idea that the person in question has had his American citizenship taken from him against his will. IOW, they are guilty of purposely obfuscating and confusing the terms **loss of citizenship** and **voluntary giving up of citizenship** with one another.

He is simply pointing out that in doing that they --the people who have control over how the forms are worded and the procedure implimented-- are being very dishonest, and just maybe demonstrating a fear that anyone would find out that any citizen would voluntarily do so, in that it casts the US in a bad light.

Wouldn't you agree ---after reading what Catch has presented here-- that that is the case???

Originally posted by Freethinker
Wouldn't you agree ---after reading what Catch has presented here-- that that is the case??? No.

Taking the Oath of Renunciation is by it's very nature a voluntary act. Consulars are required to bend over backwards to ensure that every such Oath is made freely. The document itself is filed with the consulate, the IRS and the Attorney General. And, of course, the signator has an original of his/her own. There's no way this procedure or the document itself can be construed as anything but voluntary, nor could anything less than a massive government conspiracy (up to, and including stealing back the signator's original) cause these documents to be 'misplaced'.

As to the Form FS-348, I tried to find one just to see what it looks like. I soon discovered that when researching this issue, search engines get clogged up with oodles of sites that tell you how to evade taxes by renouncing your citizenship, the rules consulars must follow, and how difficult it is to regain your citizenship once you have lost it. Try navigating the State Department website; it's an exercise in futility. I did, however, find this (from Visa Petition Board Interim Decision #2983: MATTER OF KEKICH):

Examining the evidence before us within these guidelines, we note that the record contains a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (Form FS-348), dated May 6, 1976, by the State Department, reciting that as a consequence of her naturalization in Venezuela upon her own application, the petitioner expatriated herself on September 25, 1963, pursuant to section 349(a)(1) of the Act. The record also includes an affidavit prepared pursuant to State Department regulations 6/ and executed by the petitioner on May 6, 1976, before a United States consul, which states that her naturalization in Venezuela was undertaken by her voluntarily, and not as a result of influence, compulsion, force, or duress. Additionally, her affidavit states that this act of naturalization was undertaken with the intention of relinquishing her United States citizenship.
-----------
6/ The relevant regulation, 22 C.F.R. § 50.41(c) (1984), provides:

Whenever a person admits that he has expatriated himself by the voluntary performance of one of the acts or fulfillment of one of the conditions specified in Chapter 3, Title III of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 or section 401 of the Nationality Act of 1940, and consents to the execution of an affidavit to that effect, the diplomatic or consular officer shall recite in or attach to the certificate the person's affidavit.

http://uscis.gov/lpbin/lpext.dll/inserts/int/int-43/int-1786?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm

This indicates that Form FS-348 requires a citation of the relevant statute used to revoke citizenship, and an affadavit stating that the loss of nationality is voluntary, if applicable. Again, there is no possible way this can be construed as anything but voluntary by anyone who reads the document (unless they really, really, really want to believe otherwise).

Thus far I can find no evidence whatsoever that the US government has attempted to hide the fact that some people renounce their citizenship voluntarily. Just because they don't publicize it doesn't mean it isn't a matter of public record. Hell, we all know about Bobby Fischer, don't we?

Originally posted by sedan
Thus far I can find no evidence whatsoever that the US government has attempted to hide the fact that some people renounce their citizenship voluntarily.

But the point remains that there is NO good reason to call such a voluntary renunciation a **loss** of citizenship.

The term "loss" makes it seem involuntary........and I just do not think Catch's conjecture is unreasonable , that a decision was made to, at some point in all the beaureacratic machinery, obfuscate the fact that some Americans ARE doing it voluntarily.

At any rate, it has been a nice discussion, and I thank you for sharing your reasoning on it.

Originally posted by Freethinker
At any rate, it has been a nice discussion, and I thank you for sharing your reasoning on it. Hold on there, Free. I don't think we're done quite yet. I found this link (http://www.debito.org/deamericanize.html) that adds fuel to both sides of the fire. Check it out, and tell me what you think. Anyone else, for that matter.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Sedan;

I think you are getting away from the pertinent point that Catch is trying to show you........

He is simply saying that it seems very likely that the US beaurocracy has been purposely configured in such a way that anyone reading documents concerning a US citizen's volutary renunciation of citizenship would be left with the idea that the person in question has had his American citizenship taken from him against his will. IOW, they are guilty of purposely obfuscating and confusing the terms **loss of citizenship** and **voluntary giving up of citizenship** with one another.

He is simply pointing out that in doing that they --the people who have control over how the forms are worded and the procedure implimented-- are being very dishonest, and just maybe demonstrating a fear that anyone would find out that any citizen would voluntarily do so, in that it casts the US in a bad light.

Wouldn't you agree ---after reading what Catch has presented here-- that that is the case???

People that have their citizenship removed don't then take an oath.

Clearly people do renounce their citizenship, but is it a flood that the government is trying to cover up? No, of course not. This is what people are at odds with in what catch3 writes, that plus his arrogant assumption that whatever he says is gold & can not be questioned.

Originally posted by sedan
Hold on there, Free. I don't think we're done quite yet.
It must certainly be a source of extreme, national embarassment for Free Thinker, 500 lb-er, and Napsterbater whenver this fellow logs on the forum.

My deepest, heart-felt sypathies go out to all of you. You deserves MUCH better than this "never admit I'm wrong" Sedan fool. :(

Originally posted by Catch 3
It must certainly be a source of extreme, national embarassment for Free Thinker, 500 lb-er, and Napsterbater whenver this fellow (sedan) logs on the forum.

My deepest, heart-felt sypathies go out to all of you. You deserves MUCH better than this "never admit I'm wrong" Sedan fool. :(

Catch3, I think you have gotten WAY the wrong impression from sedan.......he is one of the best --and i mean that in every sense of the word-- posters you will ever come across on internet bulletin boards.

He is consistently fair, rational and thoughtful.

He is also a very intelligent poster......there are some others here who ARE an embarassment to the human species, but sedan is on the other end of the scale.

Please keep an open mind and reconsider your view of him.

Originally posted by DrewM


Clearly people do renounce their citizenship, but is it a flood that the government is trying to cover up? No, of course not.

Maybe not.

But it still leaves unaswered the question [which Catch was trying to bring out] of WHY the powers-that-be would try to obfuscate and confuse the two issues of **loss of citizenship** and **voluntary giving up of citizenship** with one another

Freethinker

Thank you for your kind words. I think that in any sufficiently large group there will always be some people who just plain don't like each other. I believe that is the case with Catch and myself. Be that as it may, I enjoy arguing with him.

Originally posted by Freethinker
But it still leaves unaswered the question [which Catch was trying to bring out] of WHY the powers-that-be would try to obfuscate and confuse the two issues of **loss of citizenship** and **voluntary giving up of citizenship** with one another I'm still having trouble equating 'loss' with 'take'. It can just as easily mean 'give up' or 'forfeit', depending on how you choose to see it.

It's a conjecture that there is any intent to obfuscate. The form itself requires that the relevant clause be cited, and in the instance of renunciation an affadavit verifying that it is voluntary is attached. If all you look at is the title of the certificate you might assume it is involuntary, but you can't reach that conclusion if you read the whole thing. Look at the copy of the Form FS-348 from the link I provided.

In any case, the only way I can think of to get around this is to have two forms: one that says 'Certificate of Loss of Nationality' for those who have it taken away, and one that says 'Certificate of Voluntary Loss of Nationality' for those who renounce. And I don't see why a government should create a special certificate for someone who is renouncing their ties to that very same government. That would be an extraordinary courtesy.

Originally posted by sedan
In any case, the only way I can think of to get around this is to have two forms: one that says 'Certificate of Loss of Nationality' for those who have it taken away, and one that says 'Certificate of Voluntary Loss of Nationality' for those who renounce.

And I think that is a superb idea.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Catch3, I think you have gotten WAY the wrong impression from sedan.......

Please keep an open mind and reconsider your view of him.
On the strength of your recommendation, I’ll give it a try! :)

But honestly, Sedan, I suspect that you understand the issue perfectly but you just don’t like that I am the one to say it. And that is the reason I took such a personal tone. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by Catch 3
But honestly, Sedan, I suspect that you understand the issue perfectly but you just don’t like that I am the one to say it. And that is the reason I took such a personal tone. Am I wrong? Catch, my disagreement with you on this issue is sincere. Would I have argued as strenuously if someone other than yourself were the opposition? Probably not! Take that as a compliment if you like. But by the same token, I think you have gone out of your way to make an issue out of a conjecture. Aren't there are enough things to criticize about the American government without doing this? I certainly think so.

Originally posted by sedan
Aren't there are enough things to criticize about the American government without doing this? I certainly think so.
The plight of Americans should be of concern to all of your countrymen.

You’ve got stockpiles of governmental, pro-American propaganda PLUS uncountable numbers of John Wayne and Bruce Willis films to wave the flag of self-serving righteousness. Am I right?

But get anything that “tells it like it is” then America begins to stammer. The films “Platoon” and “Born on the Fourth of July” needed foreign backing merely to tell the story of your own citizens.

So until the story on American denounceés comes out in book form or at a theatre near you it will continue to require “people like me” to inform “people like you”.

In any case, who said that you do not have the right to ignore my posts entirely? What was it we were saying about ”freedom of expression/freedom of choice”? The fact that so much has been said on this thread (on this subject) indicates that the story of American denounceés is an interesting one, and one that few Americans know anything about. Why hell! You've invested a lot of time on this subject yourself! But yet you want me to stay away from it.

Sounds to me like a personal problem.

catch 3

You are like barnyard manuer. When you first encounter it the reek is overpowering but after awhile the smell begins to go away. The constant attack on your olfactory senses desentizes your sense of smell. In the same way your constant attacks on the United States have begun to desenitize people. Rather than smelling like the big shit you would like to be you smell more like a luke warm fart.

Originally posted by DrewM
This is exactly my point. There are people here who have not got a single positive thing to say about the US. In their eyes the US is the most corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, stealing country on earth.

I'd hazard a guess that if they left the US they'd soon be back.

Then we got the people that would do anything to move here. We take everything for granted here, every single thing. People from other countries do not have the opportunities that people in the US have. So to the people that are saying that this country is corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, and so on...fuck off.

Originally posted by Bit/Byte
Then we got the people that would do anything to move here. We take everything for granted here, every single thing. People from other countries do not have the opportunities that people in the US have. So to the people that are saying that this country is corrupt, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating, and so on...fuck off.

I tend to agree. The US haters are just a bunch of whining pussies in my book.

Originally posted by Catch 3
The plight of Americans should be of concern to all of your countrymen.The so-called 'plight' of someone having to fill out some paperwork to change his or her national status concerns me not at all.So until the story on American denounceés comes out in book form or at a theatre near you it will continue to require “people like me” to inform “people like you”.I denounce my government all the time. Should someone make a film about me? Perhaps you are right on this one. As for 'people like me' needing 'people like you', well, we all need some comic relief every now and then.The fact that so much has been said on this thread (on this subject) indicates that the story of American denounceés is an interesting one, and one that few Americans know anything about.The only reason this thread continues is because you refuse to drop the subject. Few Americans know or care about it because it is a total non-issue of zero relevance to them.Why hell! You've invested a lot of time on this subject yourself!I don't mind doing research; no matter the subject, it always turns up some unexpected rewards. Besides, I find it helpful to argue from evidence and facts. It beats the hell out ot supposition every time.But yet you want me to stay away from it.I made an observation that there are real issues you could be addressing. It's entirely up to you if you want to further pursue the matter.Sounds to me like a personal problem.Agreed.

Originally posted by Catch 3
So until the story on American denounceés comes out in book form or at a theatre near you it will continue to require “people like me” to inform “people like you”.
And you're calling us self-righteous?!?!

You're such a stroker.

Originally posted by Frogger
... your constant attacks on the United States have begun to desenitize people.
Actually, it is re-polarizing them. Truth has that affect on people. That is why “freedom of expression” is so important. It’s much better to make judgement on FACT rather than conjecture and false propaganda.

It is not necessary for you to admit anything. If you’ve been introduced to new information and you’re man enough to find out if it really is fact or bullshit then the affect will shape your conscientiousness. After that it’s up to.

Of course, if you prefer to sit on you ass and buy all your views wholesale from Fox News then you're up the creek. But that's my opinion, certainly not yours.

Originally posted by sedan
The only reason this thread continues is because you refuse to drop the subject.
When your mother comes over tomorrow morning to wash your clothes and make your bed, be sure to ask her if she dropped you on your head when you were an infant.

Use your brain (if there's anything left of it :@@: ) and think about what you wrote, above. Don't worry - if it doesn't come to you immediately it will eventually sink in.

Theres very few things myself and my chief debating partner Drew agree,which is ok cause we wont fall out over it,but I have to agree,'The American Dream' has given hope to millions of people,since its birth,the American people are wonderful,I just wish theyd sort out how their dream is ran,cause it effects every person on the planet..