hi again.
we (muslims and christians) believe in god and heaven and hell.
we(muslims)don't allow anyone to insult prophet Jesus.we love
prophet Mohammad and we love Jesus also.
but why sometimes and some of christians insult prophet Mohammad ?
for example in Denmark and ...
Again we(muslims)don't allow anyone insult one of messengers of God neither Prophet Mohammad and neither prophet Jesus.

Originally posted by secondboy

Again we(muslims)don't allow anyone insult one of messengers of God neither Prophet Mohammad and neither prophet Jesus.

Some Christians are ignorant and don't know anything about the other religions that they insult. That being said, I don't think I've heard Christians insult Mohammed directly, but rather people that aren't Christians. Not that that's much better.

Having said that, there are extremist Muslims as well that are just as intolerant of non-Muslims as extremist Christians are intolerant of non-Christians.

Welcome secondboy!

Mohammed was a paedophile and mass murderer, unlike Jesus. Sounds like an insult but is a mere statement of fact. And I'm an atheist with no reason to defenc one religion over the other. Indeed, to give you muslims some credit, at least Mohammed definitely existed.

I can't believe that people are so devisive that they don't realize that judaism, christianity and Islam are merely the same religion. The only difference is when they believe God stopped messing with the Earth.

My friend had some psycho asshole follow him to the airport beause of his "allah is my co-pilot" bumper sticker. The guy came up and spit at him and said "fuck allah". I guess he was too stupid to realize he just said "fuck god".

Originally posted by Blob
Welcome secondboy!

BLOB
Mohammed was a paedophile and mass murderer, unlike Jesus. Sounds like an insult but is a mere statement of fact. And I'm an atheist with no reason to defenc one religion over the other. Indeed, to give you muslims some credit, at least Mohammed definitely existed.

I think you mean pedophile, and can you please explain to me how you get to this point?

Also, are you trying to say that you believe that Mohammed existed? So does that mean that Mohammed just BS'ed about his whole meeting with God and the angel Gabriele (or however you spell it)?

Originally posted by thetruth05
I think you mean pedophile,Paedophile is the British spelling.

and can you please explain to me how you get to this point?The thread asks why Mohammed is sometimes insulted. It is because he was a paedophile, and was a mass murderer.

Do you know I feel slightly scared posting such truths? People have been killed for lesser criticisms of Islam.

Also, are you trying to say that you believe that Mohammed existed?There is very good reason to believe he was a real historical person.

So does that mean that Mohammed just BS'ed about his whole meeting with God and the angel Gabriele (or however you spell it)? [/B]Not necessarily in a deliberate way. Perhaps he really believed it himself.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I can't believe that people are so devisive that they don't realize that judaism, christianity and Islam are merely the same religion.

No, not really. These Abrahamic faiths shoot off in vastly different belief systems.

The only difference is when they believe God stopped messing with the Earth.

That is neither the major difference, nor the only one. The practices and beliefs of the sects, and even the denominations inside each, have many different theological standings and practices.

I guess he was too stupid to realize he just said "fuck god".

That depends on who you ask.

Originally posted by thetruth05
can you please explain to me how you get to this point?

It is a matter of recorded history.

Also, are you trying to say that you believe that Mohammed existed?

Because of the length of time and accomplishments he had, the military campaigns and masses of followers allow us to be certain he did, in fact, exist.

So does that mean that Mohammed just BS'ed about his whole meeting with God and the angel Gabriele (or however you spell it)?

Mohammed was of simple background. The creation of a faith almost overnight by his uneducated self was quite a feat, but that doesn't mean an angel appeared to him. It might've been made up by him to tie into the beliefs not far north, or came to him in some sort of dream or drug induced haze. :D

Originally posted by Blob
Paedophile is the British spelling.

The thread asks why Mohammed is sometimes insulted. It is because he was a paedophile, and was a mass murderer.

Do you know I feel slightly scared posting such truths? People have been killed for lesser criticisms of Islam.

There is very good reason to believe he was a real historical person.

Not necessarily in a deliberate way. Perhaps he really believed it himself.

I myself am of no religion, but as a kid, I was raised in a Muslim family. Though I disagree with many parts of the Quraan, I have never read anywhere or heard from anyone (Jewish, Christian, etc.) that Mohammed was involved in any form of pedophilia. If Islam wanted to make their religion more appetizing to the rest of the world, I don't think they would proclaim such a thing or they would erase that little part of his life. This is basically a way to drive people away from Islam.
I don't mean this as any form of backlash Blob, but I just can't believe that Mohammed or any other prophet for that matter would have been known as a proven pedophile.

I too believe that Mohammed was a mass murderer, but according to him and his followers, he had no other choice, it was the way god intended him to do it.

I totally agree with you on the criticism part, but isn't that the same with every religion. Every religion has its zealots and psychos.

Thanks, The_Truth, I see where you are coming from now.

The reason Mohammed was a paedophile is he married a 6 year old girl called Ayesha - and consumated the marriage when she was 9 years old.

Evidence Muhammad was a pedophile (http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197)

Some Islamic scholars concede this, others try to spin it so that Ayesha was older.

The poster does have some plausible points and sources, but I'm not entirely persuaded yet, I'll read on and post something after I'm finished.

Originally posted by secondboy
Mohammad

Float like a butterfly sting like a bee. {OH yeh The rest}, run like a coward when my country asks something of me.


Ooops wrong mohammad

Originally posted by secondboy
hi again.
we (muslims and christians) believe in god and heaven and hell.
we(muslims)don't allow anyone to insult prophet Jesus.we love
prophet Mohammad and we love Jesus also.
but why sometimes and some of christians insult prophet Mohammad ?
for example in Denmark and ...
Again we(muslims)don't allow anyone insult one of messengers of God neither Prophet Mohammad and neither prophet Jesus.
=========================================

Due to the nature of certain individuals, the divisions that man can impose upon themselves will always be present.

Most religions teach only 3 things:
How to get along with god.
How to get along with oneself.
How to get along with one another.

The additions and subtractions to these three basic principles create problems.

Float like a butterfly sting like a bee. {OH yeh The rest}, run like a coward when my country asks something of me. ...Or asks me to commit to the genocide of over 2 million people in order to deny them their democratic right to elect a communist...

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
...Or asks me to commit to the genocide of over 2 million people in order to deny them their democratic right to elect a communist...

It was only a sarcastic joke made about someone that bragged to be the toughest of all men.

Yes, some Christians, (and some Jews, and some atheist) insult Mohammed. They don't try to blow up his followers though. That seems to be the specialty of the Moslems.

It was only a sarcastic joke made about someone that bragged to be the toughest of all men. Picking up a gun does not make you tough.

es, some Christians, (and some Jews, and some atheist) insult Mohammed. They don't try to blow up his followers though. That seems to be the specialty of the Moslems. Last time I checked Israel (a Jewish state) had blown up quite a few Christians and Muslims. Oh and maybe you just forgot about groups like the Amry of God and the KKK/Christian Identity Movement? How about abortion clinic bombers?

http://www.armyofgod.com/

But I guess I can't blame you for allowing the Coroporate media to brainwash you into thinking only Muslims do such things since that all they ever report on.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Picking up a gun does not make you tough.

agreed
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Last time I checked Israel (a Jewish state) had blown up quite a few Christians and Muslims. Oh and maybe you just forgot about groups like the Amry of God and the KKK/Christian Identity Movement? How about abortion clinic bombers?

do you actually believe those people speak in the name of God?


Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

But I guess I can't blame you for allowing the Coroporate media to brainwash you into thinking only Muslims do such things since that all they ever report on.

blah blahhhh corporate media brainwashing blah blah blahhhhhh... LOL sorry i just noticed the same stuff in every post.

Humans stereotype... all of them do to SOME extent. The unfortunate one on middle-eastern men right now is terrorism.... to desperately try to blame someone for it is not worth the effort IMO.

do you actually believe those people speak in the name of God?

Do you think radical Islamist terrorists speak in the name of Allah?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Picking up a gun does not make you tough.

I agree, but running off at the mouth and then turning tail and running doesn't either.

do you actually believe those people speak in the name of God? WTF is your point? You are completely off topic. I waw refuting the ignorant shit that someone posted saying "only muslims murder for good"

blah blahhhh corporate media brainwashing blah blah blahhhhhh... LOL sorry i just noticed the same stuff in every post. Humans stereotype... all of them do to SOME extent. The unfortunate one on middle-eastern men right now is terrorism.... to desperately try to blame someone for it is not worth the effort IMO. Yeah I mean its not like many people are dumb enough to believe everything the news tells them...gimmie a break Decka. You know well that if something is repeted enough from an "authoritative" source people believe it. The news lies through omission.

Did you here about this?
http://www.thememoryhole.org/terror/tyler-terror.htm

Not if you weren't in Texas ou didn't. It happened right in the middle of America's terrorist mania binge none-the-less. Creating perceptions is what the news is about.

http://server32.irna.com/filesystem/06/01/25/972300-00-00_n.jpg
supreme leader of Iran

Concerning the recent blasphemy against the holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) by the Western press, the Supreme Leader said that it was a shameful measure by the Western liberal democrats in support of freedom of speech.

"This is while in accordance with this freedom of speech, denial of holocaust has been banned, but sacrilege against the sanctities of 1.5 billion Muslims has been allowed."
The Supreme Leader referred to the move as a threat posed by the Zionists to pit Muslims and Christians against one another.

Turning to the US president's remarks of several years ago about Crusade and the recent support of European leaders for the move on pretext of freedom of expression, Ayatollah Khamenei said that the reaction of Muslims was on time.

"It should be noted, however, that the sacred fury of Muslims was not directed towards Christians . It rather targeted the vicious plotters of the conspiracy to play a game on the politicians of the world hegemony.

"One of the reasons for the Zionists conspiracy is the hard and shocking blow dealt on them by the victory of the Palestinian Resistance Movement, Hamas, in the recent parliamentary election," he added.

The Supreme Leader noted that though during the election, the US officially financed Hamas rival groups, Hamas won the majority of the votes.

I don't think the US will be satisfied with any situation in the middle east until it is a suburban commuter's paradise replete with Toys'R'Us stores, Applebee's and Borders bookstores.

And when they are still blowing up themselves and others, the entire nation will collectively blow a gasket.

Maybe then, America will finally realize the harm it does to the global sphere. I wouldn't bet on it though.

Originally posted by secondboy
hi again.
we (muslims and christians) believe in god and heaven and hell.
we(muslims)don't allow anyone to insult prophet Jesus.we love
prophet Mohammad and we love Jesus also.
but why sometimes and some of christians insult prophet Mohammad ?
for example in Denmark and ...
Again we(muslims)don't allow anyone insult one of messengers of God neither Prophet Mohammad and neither prophet Jesus.

Hi secondboy - welcome to AllForums.

I don't think anybody has any intent to insult muslims & their beliefs. Of course some people do, but that is not the norm.

Most people in the west respect your right to practice your religion & respect things that are sacred to you, even if they are not sacred in the west.

Freedom of speech is also a fundamental right in the west - cartoons are satire, they are not intended to be a direct attack. Also, nobody is saying you do not have a right to not like the cartoons, or have every reason to be upset about them

I think the wider question now is the response. Is rioting, calling for the death of people, burning down embassies - is that acceptable behavior? Which is worse - that, or a cartoon. I think fundamentally most people in the west cannot comprehend the reaction to the cartoons.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by secondboy.
It should be noted, however, that the sacred fury of Muslims was not directed towards Christians
=========================================

I personally do not believe one word of this statement.

The riots have nothing to do with Denmark or Christians or Jews but they have everything to do with the murderous nature of the "religion of love and Peace"

They are showing us their true nature and danger. We should watch, listen and take notes for our own survival. We need to resist such behaviour, not submit to it.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I don't think the US will be satisfied with any situation in the middle east until it is a suburban commuter's paradise replete with Toys'R'Us stores, Applebee's and Borders bookstores.

You forgot Mc D's Burger king wal-carp jcpenny and adult toy stores :D

If the government is to restrict blasphemous remarks directed toward a religion, in all fairness this should be applied to all religions practiced in the country. The government should not favor one religion over another.

Imagine, if blasphemy of a similar degree of offensiveness as this one is given to each religion practiced in the US, I have a suspision that Muslims will still be the most easily offended group. In any case, if the government is not theocracy, why should it even concern itself in controlling so called "sacrilege"? The people should be able to say what they want about any religion practiced in the country.

The middle east countries seem a little different though. Many countries' government there seem to be quasi-theocracy.

They wanted to riot and blame the victim so they dug up a four month newspaper atricle and used it for pretense for world wide riots. If is wasn't the cartoons it would be something else.

We should not be controlled by uncontrolled psychopaths.

Originally posted by old-reb

We should not be controlled by uncontrolled psychopaths.

The only *uncontrolled psychopaths* i'm aware of are the ones currently running the United states; the extremist Conservative faction in Washington.

The US Government --with it's policy of pre-emptive wars against the oil producing countries around the globe-- (a warmongering rightwing ideology that enjoys extremely strong support from the very same Christian faction in the U.S. that its adherants here are trying to paint as a religion that does not intend harm against anyone of the Muslim faith) has been responsible for FAR more deaths of Muslims than all the terrorist attacks in the world combined.

Originally posted by old-reb
The riots have nothing to do with Denmark or Christians or Jews but they have everything to do with the murderous nature of the "religion of love and Peace"
Here, here.

I could post a derrogatory picture of Jesus or Abraham without fear. I wouldn't dare do the same with Mohammed because I might have my head chopped off.

Originally posted by Freethinker
The only *uncontrolled psychopaths* i'm aware of are the ones currently running the United states; the extremist Conservative faction in Washington.

Not big on reading up on world news, eh?

Originally posted by Evakian
Not big on reading up on world news, eh?

I didn't know how to answer his post but you had a good answer. Looking at your blog, I am impressed by your writing skills and the number of different subjects you write about. I am curious about your education and job.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
The middle east countries seem a little different though. Many countries' government there seem to be quasi-theocracy.

Subtract the quasi. Many of them are theocratic states.

Originally posted by Blob
I could post a derrogatory picture of Jesus or Abraham without fear. I wouldn't dare do the same with Mohammed because I might have my head chopped off.

The man who invents a way to chop heads off via internet will be a very rich man.

Originally posted by old-reb
I didn't know how to answer his post but you had a good answer. Looking at your blog, I am impressed by your writing skills and the number of different subjects you write about. I am curious about your education and job.

Thanks for the compliment, I'll update it with a slew of articles tomorrow in your honor. :D But you're being overly-kind--it's not very good, merely an informal outlet I use to get a chuckle, which explains the 'kookiness'. In any case, sorry, I prefer to keep to myself, so I shall stick with the anonymity of the internet.

Satire is fine, if you want I'll try and look through old newspapers in the house to show you images of how Arab satirists drew and made fun of Yasser Arafat and the such. But when it comes to being insulting - touching the core of someone's belief so badly - that's what makes people's blood boil.
I really want to know what the point behind publishing such cartoons is. Sure, satire, but didn't they think that Muslims would riot and do such things? Was it just made to provoke Muslims?

I think it would be better to stay away from ridiculing other's religions and beliefs. Everyone would be much happier. If you want to criticize then by all means it's your right, throwing insults is not such a wise decision though. It upsets many, and makes you look like a wimp.

The people that look like wimps are those that riot and cause harm to others because of what was put on a piece of paper. Anyone can draw or write a nasty little joke about anything, to be the bigger man, it means you have to walk away and not cause harm to others. This reminds me of the little kids on a play ground, "Bobby why did you hit that little boy", "Because mommy he called me a bad name". This type of stuff is what seperates the adults from the children.

mad dog I'm not justifying the Muslim's reaction to this incident. Rioting and the such is wrong.

What I stated were the reason's towards such a reaction from them, not a justification, and when you think of it really such insults most probably would get such a reaction. Thus: wimps.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
but didn't they think that Muslims would riot and do such things?

Honestly, they probably didn't. First of all, they probably didn't even think the Muslims would see it, but even then, they'd probably expect a protest but not necessarily a riot.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Satire is fine, if you want I'll try and look through old newspapers in the house to show you images of how Arab satirists drew and made fun of Yasser Arafat and the such. But when it comes to being insulting - touching the core of someone's belief so badly - that's what makes people's blood boil.
I really want to know what the point behind publishing such cartoons is. Sure, satire, but didn't they think that Muslims would riot and do such things? Was it just made to provoke Muslims?

I think it would be better to stay away from ridiculing other's religions and beliefs. Everyone would be much happier. If you want to criticize then by all means it's your right, throwing insults is not such a wise decision though. It upsets many, and makes you look like a wimp.

Sweety, if you could push a button and Salmon Rushdie and or the Danish cartoonist would fall dead of a heart attack and nobody would know that it you had anything to do with it; would you push that button?

lionel, given the Muslims' recent history in dealing with things (no matter how wrong they may be) do you think that trying to provoke them is such a smart idea? Obviously, they'd do more than just protest, and I say this without wanting to because it's sad but it's a fact: they will usually react with violence, extremists never cease not to.

old-reb, no I wouldn't why on earth would I?

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Satire is fine, if you want I'll try and look through old newspapers in the house to show you images of how Arab satirists drew and made fun of Yasser Arafat and the such. But when it comes to being insulting - touching the core of someone's belief so badly - that's what makes people's blood boil.
I really want to know what the point behind publishing such cartoons is. Sure, satire, but didn't they think that Muslims would riot and do such things? Was it just made to provoke Muslims?

I think it would be better to stay away from ridiculing other's religions and beliefs. Everyone would be much happier. If you want to criticize then by all means it's your right, throwing insults is not such a wise decision though. It upsets many, and makes you look like a wimp.


The truth is that printing cartoons that vilify other religions and people is one of Islams favorite weapons and they don't want to allow their favorite weapon turned on themselves.

You say that the Imam that is calling for riots doesn't represent Islam but you are but a teenage girl and you claim to represent what Islam is all about. Would you talk face to face with a Pakistani Imam and tell him that he doesn't represent Islam when he calls for rioting and killing?

So way off Denmark prints an offending cartoon and Sharia law must be applied to all people of the earth.

Also history if full of paintings of Allah that Muslims painted.

Could it be that people in Pakistan were getting too coozy with the Westerners who were feeding and rescuing muslims who were in the earth quake. They needed something to fire up the hate level of Westerners.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
lionel, given the Muslims' recent history in dealing with things (no matter how wrong they may be) do you think that trying to provoke them is such a smart idea?

No, not at all.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
[color=firebrick]Obviously, they'd do more than just protest, and I say this without wanting to because it's sad but it's a fact: they will usually react with violence, extremists never cease not to.

Yeah, that seems obvious now, but I don't think those in the west are used to thinking in terms of violent riots over things printed in the paper. Plus, I don't think most non-muslims are familiar with the idea that it's considered wrong to print images of Mohammed. I certainly wasn't aware of that.

old-reb, "truth" can be a very subjective term.
About me being just a teenage girl, well one of the greatest Imam's or preacher's was only 12 years old when people started to listen to him. He started with fatwa's at the age of 14 I think. People follow wisdom, not age. Not that I'm saying that I'm as wise or anything, but I can tell the difference between what's wrong and right. (his name was Al Shafi'i if I'm not mistaken)
About your question, yes I wouldn't mind talking to a Pakistani Imam. I'd see his point of view and explain mine, why would there be a problem there?
Yes Sharia law must be applied to all Muslims but you see there are types there, it gets complicated, and you don't follow everything that you hear blindly you should use your head.
Paintings of Allah? Seriously? Please show me one. Islam teaches that drawings of faces and of the divine are sinful. By the way, trying to portray or draw any of the Prophet's is a sin in Islam too. No one knows how they really look like, and no one knows how Allah looks like either. Islamic art is of calligraphy and geometric shapes, also, maybe a bit of nature. That's what I've noticed.

Lionel, just wanting to provoke a specific group of people isn't really smart, especially when it shakes their whole belief system.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.13.Overboard-X.gif

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.16.Flimflammable-X.gif

:)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
old-reb, "truth" can be a very subjective term.

Paintings of Allah? Seriously? Please show me one. Islam teaches that drawings of faces and of the divine are sinful. By the way, trying to portray or draw any of the Prophet's is a sin in Islam too. No one knows how they really look like, and no one knows how Allah looks like either. Islamic art is of calligraphy and geometric shapes, also, maybe a bit of nature. That's what I've noticed.




Here are a couple. I have seen many more posted online from Ottoman empire museum gallelrys.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Lo8qgYFwTdXLqM:http://www.oranous.org/Image/High%2520Quality/Prophet%2520Mohammad.jpg



http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:brickGr3_IdnWM:http://www.nndb.com/people/673/000044541/mahomet-sized.jpg

I've been taught that portraying any of the prophet's is sinful. I didn't know that people did it.

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Danish_Cartoons/index.shtml

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Yeah, that seems obvious now, but I don't think those in the west are used to thinking in terms of violent riots over things printed in the paper.

I think this is the main point. There is a cultural difference wide enough in this area that doesn't allow for understanding on the other side. Most westerners just shake their heads at TV images of people rioting over a cartoon.


Plus, I don't think most non-muslims are familiar with the idea that it's considered wrong to print images of Mohammed. I certainly wasn't aware of that.

I think this point was probably known by the cartoonists. If I'm not mistaken, Mohammed is represented artistically by intricate mosaics and the like. I seem to recall that it's also considered blasphemous to attempt to create something that's artistically "perfect", and in these mosaics flaws are purposefully added by the artist to ensure no blaspemy is implied.

I understand how Westerner's might perceive this issue, but it's funny how other paper's printed these images just to provoke the Muslims even more. It's like I dare you to and the papers go bring it on

Let me share an interesting article I read regarding the issue:
http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16615

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
I understand how Westerner's might perceive this issue, but it's funny how other paper's printed these images just to provoke the Muslims even more. It's like I dare you to and the papers go bring it on

Let me share an interesting article I read regarding the issue:
http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16615

It is not that we dare you it is just that we will not allow you to control our lives, we are not Muslims and we will not submit to Islamic radicals. Once we submit on one thing then there will be something else, it is a step by step deal. We want to stop it on this step.

Who's controlling your life? You have your freedom, we have ours. You have your laws, we have ours. You have your religion, we have ours.

Respect all of the above as we will respect you, and we will have peace and live happily ever after.

http://home.twcny.rr.com/dtz/images/0_01.jpg


http://home.twcny.rr.com/dtz/paintings.htm

Innocent Sweety,

You are so upset because we showed Mohammad, well your people show him so where is your outrage?

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Who's controlling your life? You have your freedom, we have ours. You have your laws, we have ours. You have your religion, we have ours.

Respect all of the above as we will respect you, and we will have peace and live happily ever after.

The rioters are trying to blackmail the west into obeying Islamic law in our own lands. If we give in on this issue then Islamics will know they have the power over us and they can riot to get officials who don't cow tow to Islam fired. They can demand better immigration laws for Muslims. They can demand that Muslims not be allowed to have a Jew for a judge.

It opens a whole can of worms and I say lets fight this black mail now or forever be blackmailed again and again.

When a spoiled child throw a tantrum, do you give into him? You do if you want to see more tantrums.

That site is blocked in the UAE I can't view the picture, I think you know why now :) I told you that portraying any of the prophet's is a sin.

Regarding the blackmail. Well, it's funny how one little thing can turn into a big deal. Suddenly you've made it about fundamentalism versus secularism while I think that that's far from the issue. It's more about asking for respect towards religion. No one made such a big fuss about laws and the such, the fuss is only being made for printing such insulting images.
Seriously, don't you get it? It's anger for being insulting not for going against our beliefs.

Innocent Sweety

You say that you would not have a problem meeting with an Imam and discussing issues on which you disagreed.

It would be nice if it was as simple as that.The truth is, dissent is not allowed in Moslem countries. Groups of men who interpret religious standards their own way roam the streets beating women who do not cover their heads or exhibit the requisite humility. Women are not allowed out of the house unescorted. Adulterers are stoned to death. There is no religious freedom in countries headed by Moslem governments other than in a few nations that have been influened by the West.

Originally posted by Frogger
There is no religious freedom in countries headed by Moslem governments other than in a few nations that have been influened by the West.
Like where she is.

You're right, Prae, the UAE is one of the more liberal of the Middle Eastern States.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Regarding the blackmail. Well, it's funny how one little thing can turn into a big deal.
Which "little thing" are you referring to - the cartoon, or the requisite response they had to it (that being the embassy torching/calling for death/or outright violence)?
Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Suddenly you've made it about fundamentalism versus secularism...
BAM, you got it - that's exactly what it's about, period. Devout Muslims are socially and spiritually stuck in the Middle Ages, and I have a feeling they always will be (IOW, they'll never be of a progressive mindset). To call for a mans DEATH over a cartoon clearly demonstrates how backwards and primitive their thinking is. I mean, I can't believe the level of indoctrination at work here. In all honesty, to riot over something so basic serves as, in my opinion, irrefutable proof that they're a savage, barbaric, uncivilized lot. Although, what else can we expect from a place where 13 year-old boys regularly tote around fully automatic weapons? In my estimation, 80% of the Middle East should be classified as the fifth rung of Hell.

You know what guys you obviously have a stereotypical view of Islam and believe me what you see is not the true Islam. Regarding fundamentalism versus secularism that is pretty far from the topic, the only reason we got angry was because of the insult! I think that if you watch this link it'll tell you more than enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8kXbNbjmhI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fonegoodmove%2Eorg%2F1gm%2F

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
You know what guys you obviously have a stereotypical view of Islam and believe me what you see is not the true Islam. Regarding fundamentalism versus secularism that is pretty far from the topic, the only reason we got angry was because of the insult! I think that if you watch this link it'll tell you more than enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8kXbNbjmhI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fonegoodmove%2Eorg%2F1gm%2F


Speaking the truth is an insult to Islam?

Innocent Sweetie

You don't seem able to differentiate between getting angry and killing people. That is one of the problems with Islam today. It is okay to get angry. It is okay to become incensed. It is even okay to rant and rave. It is not okay to call for the deaths of cartoonists. It is not okay to cut off the heads of innocent aid workers and reporters. It is not okay to declare fatwas on book authors.

Islam has gone from being a respected religion to being a pariah among the religions of the world and you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Innocent Sweetie

You don't seem able to differentiate between getting angry and killing people. That is one of the problems with Islam today. It is okay to get angry. It is okay to become incensed. It is even okay to rant and rave. It is not okay to call for the deaths of cartoonists. It is not okay to cut off the heads of innocent aid workers and reporters. It is not okay to declare fatwas on book authors.

Islam has gone from being a respected religion to being a pariah among the religions of the world and you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Originally posted by Frogger
Islam has gone from being a respected religion to being a pariah among the religions of the world and you have no one to blame but yourselves.
Exactly right, Frogger.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
You know what guys you obviously have a stereotypical view of Islam and believe me what you see is not the true Islam. Regarding fundamentalism versus secularism that is pretty far from the topic, the only reason we got angry was because of the insult! I think that if you watch this link it'll tell you more than enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8kXbNbjmhI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fonegoodmove%2Eorg%2F1gm%2F

====================================

All I see is that Islam is loosing respect in the eyes of many people in the world.
The fundamentalists are forcing a show down. Win or loose all.
We could be witnessing the eventual end of what was once a great and respected religion.
Brought on by fanatical leaders that do not mind whipping their followers up into a frenze of eventual death and self destruction.

This is a sad state of affairs in the history of man.

Is it just me or am I repeating myself over here?
Islam does not promote the actions that you are all against.

Regarding Islam going from a respected religion that is very true and I admit it I will not deny facts here. Truth stands, though, that one honest voice speaks louder than a crowd. The good ones may be a minority in the world of Muslims as many have become radicals but it's up to them to continue in their original faith or follow in the wrong steps...

Originally posted by Frogger
Innocent Sweetie

You don't seem able to differentiate between getting angry and killing people. That is one of the problems with Islam today.

With respect Frogger, you don't seem to be able to differentiate between Islam and the actions of a few of its radical members. That's one of the problems the US faces today.

The actions of Islamic terrorists reflect the teachings of Islam to the same degree that the actions of Fred Phelps represent the teachings of Jesus. You would be quick to disavow Phelps's Christianity, yet you apply the label "Islamic" to the actions of mass murderers.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Who's controlling your life? You have your freedom, we have ours. You have your laws, we have ours. You have your religion, we have ours.

Respect all of the above as we will respect you, and we will have peace and live happily ever after.

You obviously do not understand the words that you print. Here you have promised to respect us but still you deny us the right to freedom of the press.

You promise us respect but the Koran itself calls the Jews, dogs and pigs. From the middle east Islam sends a steady stream of insults against non-Muslim. If you understood the promise then insults woud stop from both directions.

One of our founding principals is freedom of speech and one of you founding principals is to prevent freedom of speech. Houston we have a problem.

Muslims think that by bad behaviour that they can totally disregard the rights of non-muslims.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Is it just me or am I repeating myself over here?
Islam does not promote the actions that you are all against.

Regarding Islam going from a respected religion that is very true and I admit it I will not deny facts here. Truth stands, though, that one honest voice speaks louder than a crowd. The good ones may be a minority in the world of Muslims as many have become radicals but it's up to them to continue in their original faith or follow in the wrong steps...
===================================

I understand what you are saying Innocent. Christianity went thru a similar occurance in the Middle Ages, leaders with their own motives using people to accomplish their own ideals.
This cost many lives.

Christianity survived after changes of attitudes.
Islam probably will also.

This situation must be very frustrating for people such as yourself.

What you are wittnessing in Middle Eastern countries is only more proof that no religion can be used as a government. It simply does not work. When religion rules it seems to lead to hatred and bloodshed. History has proven this many times in many cultures.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
With respect Frogger, you don't seem to be able to differentiate between Islam and the actions of a few of its radical members. That's one of the problems the US faces today.

The actions of Islamic terrorists reflect the teachings of Islam to the same degree that the actions of Fred Phelps represent the teachings of Jesus. You would be quick to disavow Phelps's Christianity, yet you apply the label "Islamic" to the actions of mass murderers.

We have a moderate muslim here called innocent sweety and she denies us our freedom of the press. Show me a moderate Muslim that thinks Israel has a right to life and Denmark has the right to free press.

Originally posted by old-reb
You obviously do not understand the words that you print. Here you have promised to respect us but still you deny us the right to freedom of the press.

I doubt Sweety would deny you the right to freedom of the press. You are speaking about the wishes of some radical Muslims.


You promise us respect but the Koran itself calls the Jews, dogs and pigs.

The Bible contains many ideas and messages that we don't consider appropriate today, and only Christian extremists follow the Bible's every dictum. I would imagine the same is true of the Koran.


From the middle east Islam sends a steady stream of insults against non-Muslim. If you understood the promise then insults woud stop from both directions.

One of our founding principals is freedom of speech and one of you founding principals is to prevent freedom of speech. Houston we have a problem.

A large part of the problem is that some people attribute the behavior of a few wackos to "muslims".


Muslims think that by bad behaviour that they can totally disregard the rights of non-muslims.

Yeah...like that.

I doubt Sweety would deny you the right to freedom of the press. You are speaking about the wishes of some radical Muslims.


Here we have Innocent Sweety, Meow, threatening a member for posting a picture of Mohammad.
This places her in line with the cartoon rioters who deny us "freedom of press" Muslims have freedom to print the most horrific cartoons about Jews and Christians but we must be submissive to our masters.

The radicals do the rioting and killing and the moderates just do jihad by pen.

She is placing the blame of harm to cartoon makers on themselves instead of on the ones who threaten and kill writers for not pleasing Islam.

Innocent Sweety
Meow

Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 421


Dude, you have the right to do whatever you want to do. You also have the right to think, use your mind and know whether or not certain actions made by your part will have nasty consequences or not.

old-reb let me make this clear:
What you have quoted me to saying was not meant to be threatening at all. I clearly said that everyone has the right to do whatever they want to do. I also said that with that right come responsibilities and the necessity of using your mind in certain situations or when acting in certain ways. It was a piece of advice, not threat. Please don't put words in my mouth.

If anyone misinterpreted what I said too, I hope the above explanation cleared things.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
old-reb let me make this clear:
What you have quoted me to saying was not meant to be threatening at all. I clearly said that everyone has the right to do whatever they want to do. I also said that with that right come responsibilities and the necessity of using your mind in certain situations or when acting in certain ways. It was a piece of advice, not threat. Please don't put words in my mouth.

If anyone misinterpreted what I said too, I hope the above explanation cleared things.

I did not mean to imply that you would carry out the threat. I only ment that you were saying that it would be wise to curtail freedom and not print anything that would inflame terrorist or expect the consquences which places you on the side of the radicals. This could come from extremist views or submissive views but both support Islamics.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
It was a piece of advice, not threat. Please don't put words in my mouth.

If anyone misinterpreted what I said too, I hope the above explanation cleared things.[/color]

You'd have to stretch the meaning of some words beyond recognition to see a threat in your post, Sweety. :)

Originally posted by Frogger
Innocent Sweetie

You don't seem able to differentiate between getting angry and killing people. That is one of the problems with Islam today. It is okay to get angry. It is okay to become incensed. It is even okay to rant and rave. It is not okay to call for the deaths of cartoonists. It is not okay to cut off the heads of innocent aid workers and reporters. It is not okay to declare fatwas on book authors.

Islam has gone from being a respected religion to being a pariah among the religions of the world and you have no one to blame but yourselves.

I agree - there's lots of hysteria over a CARTOON of a dead man. I agree that it's disrespectful to Mohammad but hysteria promotes nothing but disrespect for life. When 9-11 happened I saw many pictures of Muslims laughing and celebrating - so why not a cartoon with Mohammed sporting a bomb in his turban?

Originally posted by newdsagent3
I agree - there's lots of hysteria over a CARTOON of a dead man. I agree that it's disrespectful to Mohammad but hysteria promotes nothing but disrespect for life. When 9-11 happened I saw many pictures of Muslims laughing and celebrating - so why not a cartoon with Mohammed sporting a bomb in his turban?
Because not all or even most Muslims were celebrating? You do realize that the "news" bites CNN, et al. feeds you are made to be as sensationalist as possible without losing too much credibility, right?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Because not all or even most Muslims were celebrating?


yes, we have heard this exactly 959,365 times since then, in fact, no one thing has been repeated as much since

Originally posted by Travh20
yes, we have heard this exactly 959,365 times since then, in fact, no one thing has been repeated as much since

What's your point Trav?

yes, we have heard this exactly 959,365 times since then, in fact, no one thing has been repeated as much since Except for racist idiots reminding us that yes some (assumedly) Muslims were celebrating on 9-11.

Hey Trav I don't here you talking any shit about the 5 Israelis that were celebrating on 9-11...now why could that be...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

old-reb, it wasn't a threat, period. You're still putting words in my mouth, I'm going to repeat: Please don't do that.

Oh and Frogger, I am able to differentiate between anger and killing people, a sad majority of extremists, however, cannot.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
old-reb, it wasn't a threat, period. You're still putting words in my mouth, I'm going to repeat: Please don't do that.



When you tell someone that there are consequenses for an action then that is a warning or threat. Not that the threat was aimed at anyone person, it could be aimed at the cartoonist in Denmark or Itlay.

It is like saying, "Knock this chip off my shoulder and expect something bad to happen".

Please don't be scolding me for what you say.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Except for racist idiots reminding us that yes some (assumedly) Muslims were celebrating on 9-11.

Hey Trav I don't here you talking any shit about the 5 Israelis that were celebrating on 9-11...now why could that be...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

There is the proof, it was the Joooos and also it was not an airliner but a missile hit the pentagon.

How did them Joos get them dumb Muslims to fly dem planes?

Originally posted by old-reb
When you tell someone that there are consequenses for an action then that is a warning or threat. Not that the threat was aimed at anyone person, it could be aimed at the cartoonist in Denmark or Itlay.

It is like saying, "Knock this chip off my shoulder and expect something bad to happen".

Please don't be scolding me for what you say.

What we have here is a culture difference. In your Muslim community it would be common knowledge that to joke about Mohammad is dangerous. It is as common knowledge as knowing that putting your finger in the fire will get it burned. So what you said is normal talk in Muslim land but in the West where we are still feeling the effects of the cartoons it is a serious threat to our freedom of speech and that freedom is just as important to us as Muslim need to snuff out that freedom.

You just stated a fact and in some circles a fact is a threat. I don't feel any personal animosity toward you I just know that you speak from what you were taught.

Originally posted by old-reb
What we have here is a culture difference. In your Muslim community it would be common knowledge that to joke about Mohammad is dangerous. It is as common knowledge as knowing that putting your finger in the fire will get it burned. So what you said is normal talk in Muslim land but in the West where we are still feeling the effects of the cartoons it is a serious threat to our freedom of speech and that freedom is just as important to us as Muslim need to snuff out that freedom.

You just stated a fact and in some circles a fact is a threat. I don't feel any personal animosity toward you I just know that you speak from what you were taught.

Reb, I come from the "west" like you, and for the life of me, I can't understand why you took what Sweety said as a threat. I think you're reaching here.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Reb, I come from the "west" like you, and for the life of me, I can't understand why you took what Sweety said as a threat. I think you're reaching here.


Darth Be'lal
The Forsaken

Registered: Feb 02, 2004
Location: Southeastern CT
Posts: 1265


Gee Jim,

Are you willing to fight for your freedoms? I say this because the Radical Muslims have most definately thrown down the gauntlet. I posted one of the offending cartoons that got the Islamist's panties in a bunch, are you willing to do the same?
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Innocent Sweety
Meow

Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 431


Dude, you have the right to do whatever you want to do. You also have the right to think, use your mind and know whether or not certain actions made by your part will have nasty consequences or not.

Originally posted by old-reb
Darth Be'lal
The Forsaken

Registered: Feb 02, 2004
Location: Southeastern CT
Posts: 1265


Gee Jim,

Are you willing to fight for your freedoms? I say this because the Radical Muslims have most definately thrown down the gauntlet. I posted one of the offending cartoons that got the Islamist's panties in a bunch, are you willing to do the same?
-----------------------------------
Innocent Sweety
Meow

Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 431


Dude, you have the right to do whatever you want to do. You also have the right to think, use your mind and know whether or not certain actions made by your part will have nasty consequences or not.
I have a thought! Why don't you ASK HER what she meant instead of ASSUMING that "nasty consequences" = "DIE INFIDEL!" Fucking bigot. I can't stand people like you. Hopefully most of you are older and will die soon so we can stop prejudging people based on dumbass things like broad religious and political affiliations, amount of pigment in one's skin, whom one likes to bone, and/or the presence or absence of a uterus. Open your mind, because it's more closed than a...closed...thing. Yeah, that'll do.

Originally posted by old-reb
Darth Be'lal
The Forsaken

Registered: Feb 02, 2004
Location: Southeastern CT
Posts: 1265


Gee Jim,

Are you willing to fight for your freedoms? I say this because the Radical Muslims have most definately thrown down the gauntlet. I posted one of the offending cartoons that got the Islamist's panties in a bunch, are you willing to do the same?
-----------------------------------
Innocent Sweety
Meow

Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 431


Dude, you have the right to do whatever you want to do. You also have the right to think, use your mind and know whether or not certain actions made by your part will have nasty consequences or not.

No threat there reb, just an accurate observation.

old-reb doesn't every action you make have consequences to follow? I merely stated that with such specific actions that you all see to be fine to you will most probably bring nasty consequences by others and that it's so obvious that the consequences will be of the such.
Let me repeat: It was not a threat.


Borg and Vile, thanks for your posts and for pointing out what you did.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Because not all or even most Muslims were celebrating? You do realize that the "news" bites CNN, et al. feeds you are made to be as sensationalist as possible without losing too much credibility, right?

I don't watch CNN. Just as most or many Americans do not follow the teachings of Christ - I realize that lots of Muslims do not follow the teachings of Mohammad. I haven't read the Quoran though so I don't know what it teaches. I don't even know if I spelled it correctly.

Mohammed was a paedophile and mass murderer, unlike Jesus. Sounds like an insult but is a mere statement of fact. And I'm an atheist with no reason to defenc one religion over the other. Indeed, to give you muslims some credit, at least Mohammed definitely existed.

Question of Fatwa As-salamu As-salamu `alaykum. While debating with a Christian group, they posed a question that caused great perplexity to Muslims inCalifornia. It is related to the Prophet’s marriage to `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her). Here, an author of a flyer they had, as well as the Christian group posed this question:

Would a 50-year-old “Prophet of God” have sex with a 9-year-old girl?

Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

Before answering your question, we would like first to state that through the centuries, the enemies of Islam have advanced numerous accusations and far-fetched theories to discredit Islam and its last Prophet, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). Praise be to Allah alone, all such accusations have been successfully refuted by the Muslim Ummah. It is no wonder that we see a group of some Christians reinventing accusations against the noble character of the Prophet about his marriage to young `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her).

We have forwarded your question to Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Garden Grove, California. He states the following:

"The author of this flyer attacks the character of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) by using these words, “Prophet of God having sex with a 9-year-old girl.” He is trying to confuse his readers as if the Prophet was not married to this girl or married her against her will. The Prophet’s wife `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) was indeed young, but he married her according to the traditions of his people at that time.

`A’ishah was most pleased with this marriage. She became his best supporter and learned much of Islam from him. She was a great teacher for many women and men of her time. Her parents were very pleased with this marriage. Historically, it is not confirmed that she was 9 years old when she came in the household of the Prophet. There are various reports from age 9 to age 24. Her maturity, knowledge, intelligence, and contributions during the life of the Prophet and afterwards all indicate that she was either an exceptional nine-year-old or must have been older than that. Whatever the case may be about her age, one thing is certain: she was a most compatible spouse of Prophet Muhammad. None of the contemporaries of the Prophet, his friends or foes, are reported to be surprised by this marriage or made objections to it.

The author should read his own Bible and ask himself how fair he is in judging Prophet Muhammad with one standard and his own prophets with another. If he thinks that a Prophet of God should not have a very young wife, then he should also reject Abraham as God’s Prophet. If he cannot accept a 50-year-old Prophet of God having a 9-year-old wife (though I do not agree that she was 9), then he should also not accept an 86-year- old Prophet of God who slept with a young maiden of his own wife without marrying her, as the Bible says (see Genesis 16:1-16). He should then reject all the Prophets who came in the line of Prophet Abraham, including Jesus. He should also reject the whole Bible, Old and New Testament, because they both praise Abraham as a great person.

We as Muslims, of course, honor Prophet Ibrahim (peace and blessings be upon him) and respect his marriage to Hajar (may Allah be pleased with her). She was the honored mother of Prophet Isma`il (peace and blessings be upon him and upon all the Prophets of God)."

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
old-reb doesn't every action you make have consequences to follow? I merely stated that with such specific actions that you all see to be fine to you will most probably bring nasty consequences by others and that it's so obvious that the consequences will be of the such.
Let me repeat: It was not a threat.




Ok, ok, don't get excited.

Would a 50-year-old “Prophet of God” have sex with a 9-year-old girl?

God belongs to everybody, even child rapists.

Iahmael was not a prophet of Gods'. In fact the Lord said of Ishmael, " and he will be a wild man, and his hand will be against every man and every mans' hand will be against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of his brethren." Genesis 16:12

Abraham was a man of great faith and it was accounted to him as righteousness. He was not married to Hagar as you said - it was Sarahs' idea for him to reproduce with Hagar.
Look at the mess that created!

When this story broke on the media, Islam leaders admitted freely that there were also insulting cartoons regardling the christian Jesus in Islam newpapers. I think your statements are decidedly one sided.


hi again.
we (muslims and christians) believe in god and heaven and hell.
we(muslims)don't allow anyone to insult prophet Jesus.we love
prophet Mohammad and we love Jesus also.
but why sometimes and some of christians insult prophet Mohammad ?
for example in Denmark and ...
Again we(muslims)don't allow anyone insult one of messengers of God neither Prophet Mohammad and neither prophet Jesus.

Darth Be'lal
The Forsaken

Registered: Feb 02, 2004
Location: Southeastern CT
Posts: 1265


Gee Jim,

Are you willing to fight for your freedoms? I say this because the Radical Muslims have most definately thrown down the gauntlet. I posted one of the offending cartoons that got the Islamist's panties in a bunch, are you willing to do the same?
-----------------------------------
Innocent Sweety
Meow

Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 431


Dude, you have the right to do whatever you want to do. You also have the right to think, use your mind and know whether or not certain actions made by your part will have nasty consequences or not.
It sounds to me like what she was saying is that if we piss them off, we'll have to answer for it...probably with our lives. Not that she endorses it, but that we should curb our freedoms because our actions could lead to having "nasty consequences" when we doodle in the comedy section of our newspapers. Look, I.S., if I have to worry about my life over a cartoon being printed in a free press, then I'd just as soon eliminate every person in the Middle East with extreme prejudice. I don't think we should be collectively held hostage because +/- 20% of the Muslims out there want us all dead. The only way I see us getting along is if your respective governments IMMEDIATELY arrest demonstrators calling for violence against the west so they can be purified by our government in Guantanamo Bay. The only problem with that is that 90% of your populace seemingly agrees with them (but, of course, they don't endorse the violence....). Yep, it's a big problem if you ask me.