Continuation. (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=15066&perpage=15&pagenumber=13)

This is not a one-one debate between Inviolable and me, anyone can jump in.

Sorry about the delay. I still can't promise a fast turn around on my replies but will try.

Originally posted by Inviolable
My aplogies if I seem to be beating the same drum. No apology required and, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that.

This is all part of Gods plan. The bad people may live long lives but their lives may contribute to the greater good in one form or another. Even if they dont know it or it is obvious to anyone else.
This is also a very harsh statement to make, but dieing as a baby and going to heaven is better then living out a life on earth. I know it can be agrued that children might not go to heaven. Personaly I believe in the age of innocence and any person with in this catagory goes to heaven regardless.
However a discription for innocence can be lack of sin and that is what is needed to get into heaven.The problem for me is that this is a faith position. I see it like this:

Believers: There is a loving god! He sends you flowers every spring!
Me: But the world is also full of horrors and pain and misery.
Believers: Ah, but that is also because he is loving. It just doesn't look that way but take it on trust.

Say a leader can fight all the wars for his country by himself to keep the people within his country free of the destruction war brings. In order to be free of the destruction of war yourself you would have to live in his country.
Thats pretty much what Jesus did.Yet Jesus may just click his omnipotent fingers and stop all wars. I would if I could, wouldn't you?

All christians should be nice, it reflects well on God and shows people what God is all about. I am not worthy to be in Gods presence but I am.
The passage in Colossians states that we as christians can go where the wicked go but we cant partake in what they do. Its a warning to christians not to get caught up in worldly deeds.
That doesn't mean we shouldnt go to these places and talk to those people.
Jesus himself said if a man is to sick to get out of bed the doctor should go to him.So newsagent's interpretation is wrong and yours is right?

This is a major issue for Christians - they sing different songs from the same hymn sheet.

I beleive there is a hell. The bible says that when you die everything you should have done in life will be known to you. You will see with out a doubt that God does exist as well as why you should have worshiped him.Let's say I die right now whilst making this post, as an atheist. It happens - atheists die atheist all the time.

Do you, Inviolable, think I, Blob, deserve to go to hell?

Originally posted by Blob
Continuation. (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=15066&perpage=15&pagenumber=13)

This is not a one-one debate between Inviolable and me, anyone can jump in.

Sorry about the delay. I still can't promise a fast turn around on my replies but will try.

No apology required and, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that.

The problem for me is that this is a faith position. I see it like this:

Believers: There is a loving god! He sends you flowers every spring!
Me: But the world is also full of horrors and pain and misery.
Believers: Ah, but that is also because he is loving. It just doesn't look that way but take it on trust.

Yet Jesus may just click his omnipotent fingers and stop all wars. I would if I could, wouldn't you?

So newsagent's interpretation is wrong and yours is right?

This is a major issue for Christians - they sing different songs from the same hymn sheet.

Let's say I die right now whilst making this post, as an atheist. It happens - atheists die atheist all the time.

Do you, Inviolable, think I, Blob, deserve to go to hell?


I am not saying that there isn't evil, that the world is not full of horros. What I am saying is that through God it doesnt have to be that way. People do horrible things. Even if there is a natural distaster or someones home burns down. There are things we as people can do to eas the pain of these distasters. Often times we dont because it has nothing to do with us. Under God we are all Gods children. We help one another in such a manner.

Yes I would stop all wars. He can stop all of them and says he will one day.
However he is giving people a chance to see him for themselves. If the day came that God came down and just stopped everything man did that was bad. That wouldnt leave you with the option to chose him over death. I say that the devil is real and by not chosing God you are chosing him. Yet you do not see the devil either.
Its the difference between chosing good or bad. If your life is influenced by sin and you allow it then you chose bad. If your life is influenced by righteousness then you chose good.
No one man can force you to chose good or bad. So there is no proof one way or another. It is up to you and only you. That is free will.
newds wasnt saying anything I didn't say. newds was warning me not to keep up with our conversation. He didn't want me to get lost in what you were saying and have doubt. My guess is he has seen it happen before on these boards.
If you die now you will go to hell, God shows you everything when you die. If ever you have lost a love and believed it was all youre fault, you will understand to some small degree what emotions you will feel after you die, if you die now unsaved. You made the choice here on earth to ignore God. realizing how much you have ignored while you were alive will only give you so much remorse that you will fall into a very sad emotional state. One of which that is beyond words.
Does anyone deserver such a thing?
I say no one does. But that is what happens when you chose bad.
Am I saying you are bad?
No, people sin all the time and dont even know they are. Is it your responsibility to correct what you dont know. Yes I would say definitely.
Ignorance isnt bliss.

I almost forgot, getting lost in our conversation does that.
If it at all possible, could you tell me the name of a church or region in Africa where you came in contact with the starving christians there?

Originally posted by Inviolable
I say that the devil is real and by not chosing God you are chosing him.

Why? Are these the only two possible choices?

This is also a very harsh statement to make, but dieing as a baby and going to heaven is better then living out a life on earth. So then you heartily approve of abortion? It saving a baby from a life that is unwanted or unable to be cared for.
I say that the devil is real and by not chosing God you are chosing him. Is it mans fault that God hasn't made himself "real enough" to his creation? Seems like blaming the victim to me.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
So then you heartily approve of abortion? It saving a baby from a life that is unwanted or unable to be cared for.
Is it mans fault that God hasn't made himself "real enough" to his creation? Seems like blaming the victim to me.

Yes its all mans fault. God has put an inherent knowledge in each person that there is a God. If your intellect is so big that you think you are beyond looking for him then thats your fault. God just didnt give us logic he gave us emotions. If you tell me you are driven by logic alone you are wrong. It seems to me that you have made atheism a religion all its own. You have all the symptoms of a religion with the rules you post over and over again as to why there is no God. Thus your emotions take control and you worship your beliefes just as I worship God. You are stuck in the same system. Only you deny yourself the knowledg that you are. You are a slave to your own ignorance. You make yourself the victim.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Why? Are these the only two possible choices?

They are for me. You want to make your own choices go ahead. I'll call them the Vile religion. Or we can just stick to atheism.
Whatever name sounds good to you.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Why? Are these the only two possible choices?

Yes, Vile, they are. Now fess up - you really are a pagan, aren't you?:p

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Is it mans fault that God hasn't made himself "real enough" to his creation? Seems like blaming the victim to me. [/B]

Yes, Gorilla, it is. Sadly enough people are too geared to the tangible. :(
or the carnal or what they can see. Jesus is alive and well but lots of folks will never know it til they stand at the throne of judgement.:eek: That's not to say they'll be judged as wrong but they won't have a glorified body. That means they won't reign with Him for a 1000 years on earth. Don't ask if you don't want to know.

Originally posted by Inviolable
They are for me. You want to make your own choices go ahead. I'll call them the Vile religion. Or we can just stick to atheism.
Whatever name sounds good to you.

Apparently you also believe those are the only two choices for anyone. Does this mean that anyone who practices any religion other than Christianity is really worshipping Satan?

Originally posted by Inviolable
God has put an inherent knowledge in each person that there is a God.

What led you to this conclusion?

With only 2 choices it sounds more like some are afraid, either believe or go to a place of suffering. So instead of a true solid belief they are choosing to take a safe road. "Better to be safe then sorry", this causes confussion not belief. It would cause people to not search and find answers because they would be afraid of pissing off their God.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Apparently you also believe those are the only two choices for anyone. Does this mean that anyone who practices any religion other than Christianity is really worshipping Satan?

Going to hell is going to hell. If you arent on Gods side you might as well be worshiping the devil.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
What led you to this conclusion?

One its in the bible, two I knew before I became a worshiper of God. We all lack something in our life. If you say you are not you are giving yourself false hope.
Everyone in one form or another looks for something. It should be God.

Originally posted by mad dog
With only 2 choices it sounds more like some are afraid, either believe or go to a place of suffering. So instead of a true solid belief they are choosing to take a safe road. "Better to be safe then sorry", this causes confussion not belief. It would cause people to not search and find answers because they would be afraid of pissing off their God.

Safe? I am persecuted by people on a daily basis. You think being a christian is safe. Think again.

Originally posted by mad dog
With only 2 choices it sounds more like some are afraid, either believe or go to a place of suffering. So instead of a true solid belief they are choosing to take a safe road. "Better to be safe then sorry", this causes confussion not belief. It would cause people to not search and find answers because they would be afraid of pissing off their God.

Come on Mad Dog !! Haven't you read the Old Testament? What happened to idol worshippers?

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Come on Mad Dog !! Haven't you read the Old Testament? What happened to idol worshippers?

He didn't say worshipping someone other than God, he said searching for the answers. Do you think God would prefer that you worship him because you believe him to be the one true god or just because someone once told you he was the right one and you never bothered to question it? I think God would prefer the informed decision.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Safe? I am persecuted by people on a daily basis. You think being a christian is safe. Think again.

Now your mixing people up with God. If a person walks up to me and tells me I am a horrible person that looks like a monkey, should I care? NO. I also got news for you the safest religion to be in in this country is Christianity. I have yet to see a court say swear on the pagan book of wind?????????

You are taking a God safe road that has been built up by humans. When you or any other person{any religion} tells me they know God, I say good show me how you know this? BAM, nothing ever happens. The same people that tell me to except their God relize I don't quite buy into it so now they tell me believe or go to hell. So once again I ask show me of this hell and devil dude? BAM, once again nothing happens. I still search for the allmighty power, but I won't say that there is some sort of devil when I can't find one shred of evidence that there is a God.

Check history the devil came into play to get pagan followers. Also if God is ALL controlling/power then what does the devil really have to do??? THE DEVIL IS NOT REAL!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by newdsagent3
[B]Come on Mad Dog !! Haven't you read the Old Testament? What happened to idol worshippers?

1st thanks Lionelhutz that is my point.

Newdsagent3 if your God is all loving all knowing then I doubt highly It would mind questioning. If your God is jealous or afraid of humans finding out the truth what would It do? Exactly, make threats and scare humans into worshipping It{which would leave the question is it really "the God"?}. With that said IF humans wrote a book about a God to get power what is their best way to get followers{especially in yesteryear}? With the God that they made up they also would need something else to add a safety net so along comes satan and a place called hell. Pagans laughed at Christains when they 1st heard of their religion, they quit laughing when the Christains started using the devil and nightmare stories of a place called hell. Don't forget we are talking about a time when the gift of gab was very highly respected and those that could tell a story were listened to whether the story was true or not.

Originally posted by mad dog
Now your mixing people up with God. If a person walks up to me and tells me I am a horrible person that looks like a monkey, should I care? NO. I also got news for you the safest religion to be in in this country is Christianity. I have yet to see a court say swear on the pagan book of wind?????????

You are taking a God safe road that has been built up by humans. When you or any other person{any religion} tells me they know God, I say good show me how you know this? BAM, nothing ever happens. The same people that tell me to except their God relize I don't quite buy into it so now they tell me believe or go to hell. So once again I ask show me of this hell and devil dude? BAM, once again nothing happens. I still search for the allmighty power, but I won't say that there is some sort of devil when I can't find one shred of evidence that there is a God.

Check history the devil came into play to get pagan followers. Also if God is ALL controlling/power then what does the devil really have to do??? THE DEVIL IS NOT REAL!!!!!!!!!!

You are telling me that by chosing God I haven't looked at any other options. I am telling you I get other options forced on me daily by people who don't worship God.
Even before I became a christian I didnt just jump into christianity. So why dont we just leave it at, you know what you know and I know what I know.

I have to ask 1 thing before I finish with your post, WHY IN THE HECK TO YOU HAVE TO TURN EVERYTHING INTO A WAR OF WORDS?

Originally posted by Inviolable
You are telling me that by chosing God I haven't looked at any other options.

show me ONE/UNO/1 place where I did this?

I am telling you I get other options forced on me daily by people who don't worship God.

SO!!! I get Christians telling me I'll go to hell if I don't follow them, what is your point? I have not forced anything on you except to debate what you write.

Even before I became a christian I didnt just jump into christianity.

This is the 1st tme I heard you say this. If you don't mind my asking what made you go with the Christain religion? I have seen where you wrote that you felt God, how did this happen?

So why dont we just leave it at, you know what you know and I know what I know.

ONE MORE TIME of a hundred I am not trying to fight with you. Quit acting like a child and lets dicuss PLEASE :)

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Come on Mad Dog !! Haven't you read the Old Testament? What happened to idol worshippers?

There are a lot of things in the OT, including dragons, satyrs, and unicorns. Are you suggesting that because it appears in the OT it's the literal truth?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Yes its all mans fault. God has put an inherent knowledge in each person that there is a God. If your intellect is so big that you think you are beyond looking for him then thats your fault. God just didnt give us logic he gave us emotions. If you tell me you are driven by logic alone you are wrong. It seems to me that you have made atheism a religion all its own. You have all the symptoms of a religion with the rules you post over and over again as to why there is no God. Thus your emotions take control and you worship your beliefes just as I worship God. You are stuck in the same system. Only you deny yourself the knowledg that you are. You are a slave to your own ignorance. You make yourself the victim.
======================================

If, as you say, god has put an inherent knowledge in each person that there is a god, he did not put the inherent knowledge in each person that it is the Christian god. Nor did he put the inherent knowledge in each person that there is a heaven and hell.

You accuse of ignorance,(lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified), and then use only one source of reference(Bible) as your source of uncontestable knowledge.

You use the word victim.
It is interesting that Merriam-Webster's first definition is:
"A living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite." The second definition(as I suppose you intended) is: "one that is acted on and usually adversely by a force or agent."

Would not a person that limited themselves to one information source, that has the possibility of being incorrect- regardless of the faith bestowed upon it, stand the chance of being a victim of themselves.
An example would be that the afterlife was totally different than expected and the "person" would be unable to mentally accept what had occured after being completely unprepared for an alternative fate. This might occur after a person had rejected all but one source of information while living. Could lead to a form of eternal "hell" I suppose.

After discovering Christianity, many people use some form of the expression of changed lives, purpose, peace-of-mind, or fulfillment, to express the emotions experienced afterwards. The same things often expressed with other religions or beliefs. I suppose a person could even experience such emotions during complete disbelief.

To me, the intellect you speak of, is questioned when a person does not expose themselves to all possibilities of knowledge attainment. The old "placing all your eggs in one basket" saying comes to mind. Closed-mindedness keeps a person from learning of possibilities.

Quote from mad dog
With only 2 choices it sounds more like some are afraid, either believe or go to a place of suffering. So instead of a true solid belief they are choosing to take a safe road. "Better to be safe then sorry", this causes confussion not belief. It would cause people to not search and find answers because they would be afraid of pissing off their God.


Here you are telling me that I only chose two options because I am afraid to go to hell. I am telling you that by chosing God I have chosen so much more then what you are seeing. For one thing, all I have to do is mention the word God anywhere and debate begins. Not just average run of the mill, I like God or I don't like God but strong debate. People every where believe strongly that God does or does not exist. In life I wear a hat that says "Airapostle" on it. Sounds stupid but that is all I do. Wear a hat. The hat alone causes people, total strangers to ask, what does Airapostle mean? Why would you wear such a hat? I am not wearing the hat to get people to ask questions. I am wearing the hat because I love God. So take that as you will. Anyway.
The hat alone puts people in a state that isnt so pleasent. Every where I go people tell me what they think I should do. All I am doing is wearing a hat.
So you say being a christian is the safest religion in the U.S. I would say you are wrong. It may have been 3 or 4 years ago but it isnt any more. People believe so strongly about what they want to believe that they are willing to try and force it on you and if they'er not trying to force what they believe on you then they are trying to tell you what you believe is wrong.
Through all of this I see many other options then what I have chose. Not to mention the things I did before I became a christian.
So am I afraid to go to hell? Yes
Did I just give myself two options before and after I chose to be afraid to go to hell? No

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
======================================

If, as you say, god has put an inherent knowledge in each person that there is a god, he did not put the inherent knowledge in each person that it is the Christian god. Nor did he put the inherent knowledge in each person that there is a heaven and hell.

You accuse of ignorance,(lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified), and then use only one source of reference(Bible) as your source of uncontestable knowledge.

You use the word victim.
It is interesting that Merriam-Webster's first definition is:
"A living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite." The second definition(as I suppose you intended) is: "one that is acted on and usually adversely by a force or agent."

Would not a person that limited themselves to one information source, that has the possibility of being incorrect- regardless of the faith bestowed upon it, stand the chance of being a victim of themselves.
An example would be that the afterlife was totally different than expected and the "person" would be unable to mentally accept what had occured after being completely unprepared for an alternative fate. This might occur after a person had rejected all but one source of information while living. Could lead to a form of eternal "hell" I suppose.

After discovering Christianity, many people use some form of the expression of changed lives, purpose, peace-of-mind, or fulfillment, to express the emotions experienced afterwards. The same things often expressed with other religions or beliefs. I suppose a person could even experience such emotions during complete disbelief.

To me, the intellect you speak of, is questioned when a person does not expose themselves to all possibilities of knowledge attainment. The old "placing all your eggs in one basket" saying comes to mind. Closed-mindedness keeps a person from learning of possibilities.

I didn't say don't leave yourself with out options. I did say,"If your intellect is so big that you think you are beyond looking for him then thats your fault."
Are you saying looking for God is a waist of your time? If so you are a victim all onto yourself.

Originally posted by mad dog
I have to ask 1 thing before I finish with your post, WHY IN THE HECK TO YOU HAVE TO TURN EVERYTHING INTO A WAR OF WORDS?



show me ONE/UNO/1 place where I did this?



SO!!! I get Christians telling me I'll go to hell if I don't follow them, what is your point? I have not forced anything on you except to debate what you write.



This is the 1st tme I heard you say this. If you don't mind my asking what made you go with the Christain religion? I have seen where you wrote that you felt God, how did this happen?



ONE MORE TIME of a hundred I am not trying to fight with you. Quit acting like a child and lets dicuss PLEASE :)

Youre right I do take it to personal.
If I say all I am doing is telling you what I believe because you ask me, then why is it so important for me to show you proof of anything. It's just what I believe. Please dont go past what I just said and tell me if its all I believe then why cant I admit youre right. Because what I believe is the right thing to believe to me.
God did in fact prove to me that he exist. He came to me through emotions. I have had this conversation with other people and it did drag out a bit. It was emotions God gave me and not my own. I have been ask how could I tell the difference between God given emotions and my own.
My best and fastest responce is, If God gives you an emotion, you know its from God.
I would really rather not get into that discussion again.
My point in saying that you will go to hell is more then just saying you will b urn for eternity after you die.
There is so much to say to that then just suffering in a pit of fire.
I dont mean you will feel sad or burning for eternity is bad, I mean in life you are doing so much more to effect good and bad then you are imagining now. Once you are dead you will understand how much so. The effect of understanding this will not be something you will be able to recover from.
So I am saying learn what you can from God now while you are alive.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Yes, Gorilla, it is. Sadly enough people are too geared to the tangible. or the carnal or what they can see.

What of other religions?

Jesus is alive and well but lots of folks will never know it til they stand at the throne of judgement.:eek:

Sounds comfy, can I sit there?

That's not to say they'll be judged as wrong but they won't have a glorified body. That means they won't reign with Him for a 1000 years on earth.

I shall assume you mean spiritual body, but if you don't turn to God, you spend a millenia in Purgatory? Seeing as how you will no longer be tangible, time is of no matter, and seeing as how there is no way to know about this venture into Purgatory, what makes you think this is right?

Don't ask if you don't want to know.

You'll notice that much of debate here is asking questions.

Yes, Vile, they are.

Turn to a God you don't know of, or you by omission accept the Prince of Darkness and therefore spend an enternity in Damnation? Sensible, to be sure.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Going to hell is going to hell. If you arent on Gods side you might as well be worshiping the devil.

Might as well? Why is that? You must accept God, whether you truly believe or not or you are worshipping the Devil. You cannot force someone to believe, some people cannot truly believe because of the way their mind sees things.

We all lack something in our life. If you say you are not you are giving yourself false hope.

How do you know that someone's life is not fulfilled if they do not believe in God? Who are you to make such a statement on human psychology?

Originally posted by Evakian
Might as well? Why is that? You must accept God, whether you truly believe or not or you are worshipping the Devil. You cannot force someone to believe, some people cannot truly believe because of the way their mind sees things.



How do you know that someone's life is not fulfilled if they do not believe in God? Who are you to make such a statement on human psychology?

I am not trying to force you to believe, you asked I answered. Believe me or don't believe me.

I quoted the bible.
Who are you to say its wrong?

Originally posted by Inviolable
I am wearing the hat because I love God.

By wearing the hat, you alert others of your love for God and invite the questions or debate. Therefore any form of complaining leaves the blame on you.

The hat alone puts people in a state that isnt so pleasent. Every where I go people tell me what they think I should do.

Cry bigotry and end the discussion, maybe whip out the ol' chainsaw and smite the infidels.

All I am doing is wearing a hat.

That sparks the entire conversation.

So you say being a christian is the safest religion in the U.S. I would say you are wrong.

They are the most populous religion in the nation, there are more Christian churches than other category of temples, more Christian politicians than those of other affiliation, God is printed on money and in the national pledge, Christmas is a federal holiday. It is indeed the safest, that doesn't mean the minority isn't vocal, but that hardly makes you "unsafe".

So am I afraid to go to hell? Yes
Did I just give myself two options before and after I chose to be afraid to go to hell? No

You weren't afraid of Hell until you believed it existed, correct?

Originally posted by Inviolable
I quoted the bible.
Who are you to say its wrong?

Who am I to say it is wrong?

With all the stories in it that claim supernatural actions in The Bible, who are you to say it is right?

And no, there was no quotation of the Bible given, if so, quote the verse, book, and chapter, if you would be so kind.

Originally posted by Evakian
By wearing the hat, you alert others of your love for God and invite the questions or debate. Therefore any form of complaining leaves the blame on you.

Yes I am and any form of complaining is blamed on the persons complaining. They are the ones who chose to complain.



Cry bigotry and end the discussion, maybe whip out the ol' chainsaw and smite the infidels.

uhh, yeah project that, it works for you.


That sparks the entire conversation.

True it does but if you dont want to hear about God in the first place then why say anything about the hat?

It was an example. why make more out of it then what it was? So your point will be more valid then mine?
What is your point in making these statements?



They are the most populous religion in the nation, there are more Christian churches than other category of temples, more Christian politicians than those of other affiliation, God is printed on money and in the national pledge, Christmas is a federal holiday. It is indeed the safest, that doesn't mean the minority isn't vocal, but that hardly makes you "unsafe".

That is true and there has been an increase in vacant buildings, that are churches within the past 4 years. That has increesed in number each year by more then 300 a year just in the state of Michigan. I dont know where you live but I live in Detriot and I can say its not so safe here.



You weren't afraid of Hell until you believed it existed, correct?

I was worried about death, as much as we all are I suppose. I guess to some degree hell was thought about.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Yes I am and any form of complaining is blamed on the persons complaining. They are the ones who chose to complain.

If you don't want to hear complaining, don't wear the hat. Some people have the propensity to complain and speak their mind, a hat like that preys on that reaction.

True it does but if you dont want to hear about God in the first place then why say anything about the hat?

Because they want to tell you what to believe. Again, chainsaw.

What is your point in making these statements?

Expect people to attack you for the hat, that is part of being Christian, and taking it is also being Christian. There is no reason to complain about the complaints, it is a give-in they will happen.

That is true and there has been an increase in vacant buildings, that are churches within the past 4 years. That has increesed in number each year by more then 300 a year just in the state of Michigan. I dont know where you live but I live in Detriot and I can say its not so safe here.

I trust the figure, but care to provide a source for further reading?
Also, the number of churches may be declining, but Christianity is still unproportionally huge compared with other faiths in this country. There is no true danger, not any that isn't minimal.

I was worried about death, as much as we all are I suppose. I guess to some degree hell was thought about.

Not everyone is afraid/worried of or about death. Also, why would you think about Hell if you didn't believe in it?

Originally posted by Evakian
Who am I to say it is wrong?

With all the stories in it that claim supernatural actions in The Bible, who are you to say it is right?

And no, there was no quotation of the Bible given, if so, quote the verse, book, and chapter, if you would be so kind.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Read what I have been saying and you will see there is no difference.

Sorry had to edit out the extra stuff from the site I got it from. Hope I got it all.

Originally posted by Evakian
If you don't want to hear complaining, don't wear the hat. Some people have the propensity to complain and speak their mind, a hat like that preys on that reaction.

I am not complaining I am giving an example.



Because they want to tell you what to believe. Again, chainsaw.

I never said anything to them. If I seen someone with a concert T-Shirt from a band that I didnt agree with. I am not going to tell that person why I hate the band and why they should to.



Expect people to attack you for the hat, that is part of being Christian, and taking it is also being Christian. There is no reason to complain about the complaints, it is a give-in they will happen.

Again, I am not complaining. I am giving an example.



I trust the figure, but care to provide a source for further reading?
Also, the number of churches may be declining, but Christianity is still unproportionally huge compared with other faiths in this country. There is no true danger, not any that isn't minimal.

No sorry no link atm I will try and find it for you.


Not everyone is afraid/worried of or about death. Also, why would you think about Hell if you didn't believe in it?

To some point everyone wonders what may or may not happen when they die. That is what I meant. You ever have a close to death encounter? You may not have had a reason to fear death yet.

Originally posted by Inviolable
No sorry no link atm I will try and find it for you.

Post if you ever come across it again, sounds like something of interest and some concern.

To some point everyone wonders what may or may not happen when they die. That is what I meant.

Okay, clarified.

You ever have a close to death encounter? You may not have had a reason to fear death yet.

I've had my experiences from time to time, but not sure what that has to do with anything. Not everyone has to fear death just because it is assumed that they are.

Originally posted by Evakian
Post if you ever come across it again, sounds like something of interest and some concern.



Okay, clarified.



I've had my experiences from time to time, but not sure what that has to do with anything. Not everyone has to fear death just because it is assumed that they are.

I dont get you. Sometimes you give some slight indication you are christian. For the most part you definitely dont seem to be acting like it, but every now and then.

Originally posted by Inviolable
I am not saying that there isn't evil, that the world is not full of horros. What I am saying is that through God it doesnt have to be that way. People do horrible things. Even if there is a natural distaster or someones home burns down. There are things we as people can do to eas the pain of these distasters. Often times we dont because it has nothing to do with us. Under God we are all Gods children. We help one another in such a manner.I agree (bar the god bit of course ;) )

Yes I would stop all wars. He can stop all of them and says he will one day.
However he is giving people a chance to see him for themselves. If the day came that God came down and just stopped everything man did that was bad. That wouldnt leave you with the option to chose him over death. I say that the devil is real and by not chosing God you are chosing him. Yet you do not see the devil either.
Its the difference between chosing good or bad. If your life is influenced by sin and you allow it then you chose bad. If your life is influenced by righteousness then you chose good.
No one man can force you to chose good or bad. So there is no proof one way or another. It is up to you and only you. That is free will.God, being a limitless creator, made the stage, the actors and wrote the script. Any will that is free is his.

To blame the humans he created would rather be like me making tents - some from canvas and others from tissue paper - then putting them in the rain and blaming the tissue ones for not choosing to remain intact, rather than blaming myself for a bad design decision.

newds wasnt saying anything I didn't say. newds was warning me not to keep up with our conversation. He didn't want me to get lost in what you were saying and have doubt. My guess is he has seen it happen before on these boards.To my knowlegde it hasn't happened on these forums. I've seen it happen several times on my home forum, but those who deconvert were backsliding anyway.

If you die now you will go to hell, God shows you everything when you die. If ever you have lost a love and believed it was all youre fault, you will understand to some small degree what emotions you will feel after you die, if you die now unsaved. You made the choice here on earth to ignore God. realizing how much you have ignored while you were alive will only give you so much remorse that you will fall into a very sad emotional state. One of which that is beyond words.
Does anyone deserver such a thing?
I say no one does. But that is what happens when you chose bad.Then it seems you disagree with god. Or, more charitably, you think "good" is what god says, rather than what god says is "good".

Am I saying you are bad?
No, people sin all the time and dont even know they are. Is it your responsibility to correct what you dont know. Yes I would say definitely.It's not my fault god made this tent from tissue paper. I did not make myself this way.

Ignorance isnt bliss.Now, now. I haven't suggested to you that our philosophical differences are due to your ignorance.

I almost forgot, getting lost in our conversation does that.
If it at all possible, could you tell me the name of a church or region in Africa where you came in contact with the starving christians there? I never encountered, to my knowledge, literally starving people. But daily I did encounter permanently hungry people (who were christians). Even people with fulltime work cannot afford to eat everyday in Africa.

One anecdote sticks in my mind. I was chatting to the security guard of the place where I worked. These poor guys (security guards) work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for a pittance - and I mean a pittance. They sit all day or all night (and Nairobi is cold at night) hoping an armed gang doesn't come and shoot them dead in a raid (Nairobi is violent and security guards die on the job all the time).

Anyway, this one told me his brother had died (people just die all the time in Africa). He had inherited his children and now had 11 mouths to feed on his sick joke of a paypacket - a mathematical impossibility. He told me, however, that he had the strength to carry on because he had faith in (the christian) god.

That story is one reason you'll find me a little more sympathetic to the positive aspects of religious belief than some atheists.

Originally posted by Blob
I agree (bar the god bit of course ;) )

God, being a limitless creator, made the stage, the actors and wrote the script. Any will that is free is his.

Wrong, like I said he lets you think how you want to think. If what you are saying is true then you would be stuck as an atheist. Thats not to say that you will ever be anything other then an atheist, thats to say if what you are saying is true then Gods part for you is to play an atheist and you have no choice over it. But you are the one who choses to be atheist, God didn't chose it for you.
My brother has a bumper sticker that says, God doesn't believe in Atheist.



To blame the humans he created would rather be like me making tents - some from canvas and others from tissue paper - then putting them in the rain and blaming the tissue ones for not choosing to remain intact, rather than blaming myself for a bad design decision.

Again, you can think what you want to think. The rest of the thread has also been about how God has placed an inherent knowledg that there is a God in each of us. So if you opt not to look for him then that is your fault. Making excuses wont help you, looking for excuses wont help you and putting God at a low priority because you are to bussy finding the truth someplace else, will not help you.



To my knowlegde it hasn't happened on these forums. I've seen it happen several times on my home forum, but those who deconvert were backsliding anyway.

thats good to hear =)


Then it seems you disagree with god. Or, more charitably, you think "good" is what god says, rather than what god says is "good".

No I do not, in fact I am telling you what I believe God would want me to tell you.


It's not my fault god made this tent from tissue paper. I did not make myself this way.

By learning every thing other then what you should know about God. You have made yourself that way.



Now, now. I haven't suggested to you that our philosophical differences are due to your ignorance.

Thats true, thank you. Most people assume that because I am christain that I havent looked for any proof myself. However you have told me that you do not have time to look for God and that he isnt a priority to you.
This would make you ignorant to God, no?



I never encountered, to my knowledge, literally starving people. But daily I did encounter permanently hungry people (who were christians). Even people with fulltime work cannot afford to eat everyday in Africa.

O.K Thank you.
Africa sounds pretty tuff, I dont think I want to go there.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Wrong, like I said he lets you think how you want to think. If what you are saying is true then you would be stuck as an atheist. Thats not to say that you will ever be anything other then an atheist, thats to say if what you are saying is true then Gods part for you is to play an atheist and you have no choice over it.

Although it is unlikely he would ever find a faith, that's not to say he has no choice over it. Also, this:

Thats not to say that you will ever be anything other then an atheist, thats to say if what you are saying is true then Gods part for you is to play an atheist and you have no choice over it.

contradicts this:

But you are the one who choses to be atheist, God didn't chose it for you.

The first being true, then God chose to send him to Damnation, the second being true, he can't help the quizzical, curious nature God gave him to question everything, and is being sent to Damnation for his inherent curiosity.

The rest of the thread has also been about how God has placed an inherent knowledg that there is a God in each of us.

Travel back in time thirty thousand years, find some human tribes and see what they believe. If you could somehow communicate with them, chances are they would not know of a monotheistic creature.

Same holds true going back three thousand years depending on your location.

Same holds true today depending on your location and knowledge of the world.

So if you opt not to look for him then that is your fault.

What of the muslim in Riyadh, or the agnostic tribesman in a remote region, or a Hindu in a crowded Sri Lankan village? There are plenty of cases where that can be questioned. With Blob, he questions things and has trouble believing in the notion of God, that is probably on account of his inquisitive nature, which if God exists it is either the problem of God giving him that directly, or making that inherent in all humans. You may say it is a trial for us to believe, but some cannot in good conscious find themselves believing. I wouldn't necessarily blame Blob if he isn't at a church on Sunday or in a few decades down the road.

No I do not, in fact I am telling you what I believe God would want me to tell you.

In another thread, you claimed God was speaking through you at specific times. I shall venture to say now is not one of those times because of this statement, but why do you believe it was then and not now?

Thus your emotions take control and you worship your beliefes just as I worship God. You are stuck in the same system. Only you deny yourself the knowledg that you are. You are a slave to your own ignorance. You make yourself the victim. Bwaaahahahaaaa....

Sigh...

Emotions are what promote ignorence. "I don't want to read", "I don't want to think about it", "I don't want to here about logical conlusions"...etc etc

Logic and knowledge go hand-in-hand. The more information/experience you have then better you can grasp a given situation.

Emotions can lead you in a direction but they cannot provide real knowledge. If you feel there is a presence then it is up to you to research that to the best of your abilities. You can then make a decision based on the many sources you have found and agree with.

Relying on one text for all the answers however is the most ignorent thing possible. To say "I read this one book so I know everything there is to know about God, the world, man, spirit and the afterlife" is definatly a sign that you don't really know jack shit and prefer to remain that way.

If your intellect is so big that you think you are beyond looking for him then thats your fault. God just didnt give us logic he gave us emotions. If you tell me you are driven by logic alone you are wrong. It seems to me that you have made atheism a religion all its own. And this here is exactly why it is useless talking to you. You don't debate. You build strawman effigies, then pat yourself on the back for burning them down.

read up lest you remain ignorant:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

This also makes you unsufferable:That is true and there has been an increase in vacant buildings, that are churches within the past 4 years. That has increesed in number each year by more then 300 a year just in the state of Michigan. I dont know where you live but I live in Detriot and I can say its not so safe here. You complain about being oppressed every other post. It's ridiculous. What the hell does any of this have to do with what we are talking about? Secondly how are you sooooo oppressed when the government is controlled EXCLUSIVELY by christians and christians (not just theists) are something like 80% of the US population.

Its quite telling that you cry "help help I'm bein oppressed" any time you are ever challenged on what you are claiming(especially in a discussion forum that YOU came to). It is again a sign that you would rather remain ignorant and not ever have to deal with anyone contradicting you.

I say Good day Sir.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Bwaaahahahaaaa....

Sigh...

Emotions are what promote ignorence. "I don't want to read", "I don't want to think about it", "I don't want to here about logical conlusions"...etc etc

Logic and knowledge go hand-in-hand. The more information/experience you have then better you can grasp a given situation.

Emotions can lead you in a direction but they cannot provide real knowledge. If you feel there is a presence then it is up to you to research that to the best of your abilities. You can then make a decision based on the many sources you have found and agree with.

Relying on one text for all the answers however is the most ignorent thing possible. To say "I read this one book so I know everything there is to know about God, the world, man, spirit and the afterlife" is definatly a sign that you don't really know jack shit and prefer to remain that way.

And this here is exactly why it is useless talking to you. You don't debate. You build strawman effigies, then pat yourself on the back for burning them down.

read up lest you remain ignorant:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

This also makes you unsufferable: You complain about being oppressed every other post. It's ridiculous. What the hell does any of this have to do with what we are talking about? Secondly how are you sooooo oppressed when the government is controlled EXCLUSIVELY by christians and christians (not just theists) are something like 80% of the US population.

Its quite telling that you cry "help help I'm bein oppressed" any time you are ever challenged on what you are claiming(especially in a discussion forum that YOU came to). It is again a sign that you would rather remain ignorant and not ever have to deal with anyone contradicting you.

I say Good day Sir.

You dont have any idea of who you are talking to. How can you say I chose to remain ignorant.
What you did do was say whatever it was that would help you stand correct. Thats all. You still do the exact same thing I am doing. Refuse to admit you are wrong because you know you are right. Only you're accusations are slightly different then mine. One thing I dont have an avatar, however you have a plastic baby Jesus. Let those emotions out. Show the world you are right and what you are doing is just. You are the biggest fool I have ever seen.

Originally posted by Evakian
Although it is unlikely he would ever find a faith, that's not to say he has no choice over it. Also, this:



The first being true, then God chose to send him to Damnation, the second being true, he can't help the quizzical, curious nature God gave him to question everything, and is being sent to Damnation for his inherent curiosity.



Travel back in time thirty thousand years, find some human tribes and see what they believe. If you could somehow communicate with them, chances are they would not know of a monotheistic creature.

Same holds true going back three thousand years depending on your location.

Same holds true today depending on your location and knowledge of the world.



What of the muslim in Riyadh, or the agnostic tribesman in a remote region, or a Hindu in a crowded Sri Lankan village? There are plenty of cases where that can be questioned. With Blob, he questions things and has trouble believing in the notion of God, that is probably on account of his inquisitive nature, which if God exists it is either the problem of God giving him that directly, or making that inherent in all humans. You may say it is a trial for us to believe, but some cannot in good conscious find themselves believing. I wouldn't necessarily blame Blob if he isn't at a church on Sunday or in a few decades down the road.



In another thread, you claimed God was speaking through you at specific times. I shall venture to say now is not one of those times because of this statement, but why do you believe it was then and not now? [/QUOTE]

In a previous post you said that not everyone is afraid to die. I am to assume that you were talking about yourself. Personaly I can only think of three reasons why someone wouldnt be afraid to die.
1, You have nothing to live for.
2, You live to die.
3, You know where you are going when you die.
You know you have the sense of humor a marine has.
Oftens times a marine is geared to kill and thus ready to die.
So you may not be born again, you may just be someone looking in for their own amusement. But you do not know who you may be looking in on or if one day you will be in the same place.
I am so happy I am not as lost as you.

Originally posted by Inviolable
In a previous post you said that not everyone is afraid to die. I am to assume that you were talking about yourself.

I can assure you that there are are group of people out there not fearful of their demise.

Personaly I can only think of three reasons why someone wouldnt be afraid to die.

Perhaps you should try to think of more?

I am so happy I am not as lost as you.

A) How am I "lost"? For the simple fact that I am not fearful of having my life end, because your three linear definitions are the only possibilities?
B) Spare me the condescendence, please.

Originally posted by Evakian

B) Spare me the condescendence, please.


Sure, if you return the favor.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Sure, if you return the favor.

Done. However, from my seat I have not talked down to you with a superior air, while the statement "I am so happy I am not as lost as you." may be a statement of opinion, but also very insulting. Was it absolutely necessary to say such?

But all this is taking us off on a tangent, let us return to the discussion at hand.

Originally posted by Evakian
Done. However, from my seat I have not talked down to you with a superior air, while the statement "I am so happy I am not as lost as you." may be a statement of opinion, but also very insulting. Was it absolutely necessary to say such?

But all this is taking us off on a tangent, let us return to the discussion at hand.

Wasn't meant as an insult, sorry about that.

You got cancer or something?
Whats the deal there?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Personaly I can only think of three reasons why someone wouldnt be afraid to die.
1, You have nothing to live for.
2, You live to die.
3, You know where you are going when you die.


There are many other reasons that you haven't thought of yet. Give it time.

I'm not afraid of death itself, although like most others I do have a certain trepidation about the manner of my death. No one wants to suffer. Whether you realize it or not it is possible to accept death as a natural, and unavoidable consequence of life. It is also possible to live a happy and fulfilling life without accepting christian teachings as its basis.


I am so happy I am not as lost as you.

And I'm happy I haven't wasted this life worrying about what's going to happen in the next life.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
There are many other reasons that you haven't thought of yet. Give it time.

I'm not afraid of death itself, although like most others I do have a certain trepidation about the manner of my death. No one wants to suffer. Whether you realize it or not it is possible to accept death as a natural, and unavoidable consequence of life. It is also possible to live a happy and fulfilling life without accepting christian teachings as its basis.



And I'm happy I haven't wasted this life worrying about what's going to happen in the next life.

Its not waisted worrying about the next life.
What made you think it was?
Because I am asking why he isnt afraid of death?
Why arent you afraid of death?

I just thought of this.
Just say for instance, everything that makes your life happy and fulfilling is taken away. Would you commit suicide? Because life would be over then? I mean if everything that made you happy was gone. What would there be to live for?

Not trying to be cruel or mean in asking, just extremely curious.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Its not waisted worrying about the next life.
What made you think it was?
Because I am asking why he isnt afraid of death?

I think christians in general fear what may happen to them in the afterlife. The christians are the ones that believe you must act, or believe, a certain way and you will be rewarded in heaven. Act differently and your reward is a lake of fire, and eternal torment. Christians believe they have a special insight into the afterlife and live their lives according to that belief. If it turns out that christianity is completely wrong about heaven, hell, and all the rest, I would say that it would be a waste to some degree to have molded your entire life around its teachings.


Why arent you afraid of death?

Because I think living in fear is for suckers. Death is the natural end to what we perceive as life. If you're going to fear death, do you not also fear life? Why fear something that is inevitable?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I think christians in general fear what may happen to them in the afterlife. The christians are the ones that believe you must act, or believe, a certain way and you will be rewarded in heaven. Act differently and your reward is a lake of fire, and eternal torment. Christians believe they have a special insight into the afterlife and live their lives according to that belief. If it turns out that christianity is completely wrong about heaven, hell, and all the rest, I would say that it would be a waste to some degree to have molded your entire life around its teachings.



Because I think living in fear is for suckers. Death is the natural end to what we perceive as life. If you're going to fear death, do you not also fear life? Why fear something that is inevitable?

You dodged the last question I asked.
You know there was a time when I didnt fear death. But when I found so much in life, I dont want to be away from it until I have to be. Most Christians are driven by emotions. The emotions that drive them are the after life things you are talking about. That doesnt mean that fear runs their lives. That means that they found the sorce of happieness.

So because you're not afraid to die would you commit suicide if all that made you happy was gone?

Originally posted by Inviolable
You dodged the last question I asked.

Dodged? Hardly. You just didn't like my answer.


You know there was a time when I didnt fear death. But when I found so much in life, I dont want to be away from it until I have to be.

I'm not sure what you're trying to express here.


Most Christians are driven by emotions.

I would agree that christian faith is based more on emotion than on reason.


The emotions that drive them are the after life things you are talking about. That doesnt mean that fear runs their lives. That means that they found the sorce of happieness.

What source would that be?


So because you're not afraid to die would you commit suicide if all that made you happy was gone?

Being alive makes me happy, so no.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Dodged? Hardly. You just didn't like my answer.



I'm not sure what you're trying to express here.



I would agree that christian faith is based more on emotion than on reason.



What source would that be?



Being alive makes me happy, so no.

You did dodge it, I didnt see an answer of any kind until now. Life in genral makes you happy? Just being alive. Thats a very handy answer to have.
Yes emotions are what makes the world go round. At least to me anyway. So why not live your life through them?
What is the sorce of happieness?
God.
I am trying to express that death isnt the only thing on my mind. It doesnt run my life.

So if someone tried to kill you, then the only fear you would have is of losing happieness?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Wasn't meant as an insult, sorry about that.

No harm done chap.

You got cancer or something?
Whats the deal there?

In regards to my personal life, I shall keep with the anonymity of a webforum. It is probably not healthy for the human psyche to stir on death often, but also I'd say it is dangerous to be in total fear of the natural process of where your life ends. Even if you have things to live for, you shouldn't be afraid of death or you will live in fear and agony--it is understandable to not want a gruesome end, but it is something that should be a bit more acceptable in your mind that you will die.

What made you think it was?

Why is it a waste to fear and think about the afterlife? Because that is uncertain, no matter what you believe it is never going to be concrete and real to you to discover. Live in the here and now, for the future will pave itself as you go.

Why arent you afraid of death?

Why be afraid of death at all? The "I have things to live for", doesn't strike me as the most Christian way, highly materialistic, highly repellant of the future.

everything that makes your life happy and fulfilling is taken away. Would you commit suicide?

I'd suggest that the person find a new source of pleasure.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Yes emotions are what makes the world go round.

Reason makes the world go 'round, emotions just make the trip all the more bearable.

So why not live your life through them?

Because human emotion is not a trustworthy device, nor a logical one. Therefore, emotion cannot be used a governing tool for every matter in life.

What is the sorce of happieness?

Whatever my mind wills it to be.

I am trying to express that death isnt the only thing on my mind. It doesnt run my life.

But in death you shall go to Heaven, or stride for that achievement. Because your life is run through Christian doctrine, you work your life to achieve something in the afterlife, to make yourself worthy. That entails a striving to meet death graciously, death has to be taken into consideration by Christian standards.

So if someone tried to kill you, then the only fear you would have is of losing happieness?

If someone tried to kill me, I would go by my animalistic instincts and fight to survive, that is not to say I couldn't sit back and get slain. Pain is not desirable, so I will prefer to apprehend the villain and attempt to have him mend his ways through rehabilitation.
If someone tried to kill me, I have no fear of dying, just an abhorrence of agony.

Originally posted by Evakian
No harm done chap.



In regards to my personal life, I shall keep with the anonymity of a webforum. It is probably not healthy for the human psyche to stir on death often, but also I'd say it is dangerous to be in total fear of the natural process of where your life ends. Even if you have things to live for, you shouldn't be afraid of death or you will live in fear and agony--it is understandable to not want a gruesome end, but it is something that should be a bit more acceptable in your mind that you will die.



Why is it a waste to fear and think about the afterlife? Because that is uncertain, no matter what you believe it is never going to be concrete and real to you to discover. Live in the here and now, for the future will pave itself as you go.



Why be afraid of death at all? The "I have things to live for", doesn't strike me as the most Christian way, highly materialistic, highly repellant of the future.



I'd suggest that the person find a new source of pleasure.

No I didnt mean any of the things the way you replied to them. basically my fear of death is in the fear that loved ones will be sad when I go.
There are times when I eagerly await to be with God. Oddly this happens when I am happiest.
The futur, well I often wish Jesus would just come back to Earth now.
But that is selfish and there are so many people who would be left behind when he gets here.

Originally posted by Inviolable
The futur, well I often wish Jesus would just come back to Earth now.
But that is selfish and there are so many people who would be left behind when he gets here.

Chances are I'd get "left behind", if so, may I have your house and car? :D

Originally posted by Evakian
Reason makes the world go 'round, emotions just make the trip all the more bearable.



Because human emotion is not a trustworthy device, nor a logical one. Therefore, emotion cannot be used a governing tool for every matter in life.



Whatever my mind wills it to be.



But in death you shall go to Heaven, or stride for that achievement. Because your life is run through Christian doctrine, you work your life to achieve something in the afterlife, to make yourself worthy. That entails a striving to meet death graciously, death has to be taken into consideration by Christian standards.



If someone tried to kill me, I would go by my animalistic instincts and fight to survive, that is not to say I couldn't sit back and get slain. Pain is not desirable, so I will prefer to apprehend the villain and attempt to have him mend his ways through rehabilitation.
If someone tried to kill me, I have no fear of dying, just an abhorrence of agony.

No. I do not run my life just to achieve things in the afterlife. I am given life to live it. So I live it. If most of your life was spent happy and content then why not live it by emotions?
You can make people around you happy in such a manner as to be happy around them.
Greed, lust, power. To many people in the world thrive on these things. Its the motive that sets them in motion to improve themselves.
Logic is just a tool used to get people the things they seek when it comes to greed, lust and power.
If you really want to use logic use it to make yourself and those around you happy by asserting your emotions in a positive way.

Originally posted by Evakian
Chances are I'd get "left behind", if so, may I have your house and car? :D

Defently! I hope they make you happy. Do you need a new computer? I know a man who builds them and gives them away to people. Nice computers.
2GB of ram and a 256 NVidia card.

Originally posted by Inviolable
If most of your life was spent happy and content then why not live it by emotions?

As odd as it sounds, sometimes living through your reasoning abilities, not your emotions, is what can make you fulfilled.

Greed, lust, power.

Woohoo! Now you're talking! :D

If you really want to use logic use it to make yourself and those around you happy by asserting your emotions in a positive way.

Seems logical ;)

As for your property, thank you, my cat will love his new home and automobile.

Originally posted by Inviolable
You did dodge it, I didnt see an answer of any kind until now. Life in genral makes you happy? Just being alive. Thats a very handy answer to have.

It may be "handy", but it happens to be true.


Yes emotions are what makes the world go round. At least to me anyway. So why not live your life through them?

I see nothing wrong with living your life for happiness, but we were discussing fear.


What is the sorce of happieness?
God.

My, what a "handy" answer. :)


I am trying to express that death isnt the only thing on my mind. It doesnt run my life.

I didn't mean to imply that fear of death ran your life, just that it is a major impetus for your faith.


So if someone tried to kill you, then the only fear you would have is of losing happieness?

Well, as I said I do have some trepidation regarding the manner of my death, so unless this hypothetical person with homicide on their mind was going to kill me with sex, I might fear whatever they had planned. :D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
[B]It may be "handy", but it happens to be true.

Very well.



I see nothing wrong with living your life for happiness, but we were discussing fear.

Yes we are, so far you haven't been very fourth coming.




My, what a "handy" answer. :)

It may be "handy", but it happens to be true.


I didn't mean to imply that fear of death ran your life, just that it is a major impetus for your faith.

No, life is a major impetus to be a christian. The life that Jesus offers is the driving force in a christian.



Well, as I said I do have some trepidation regarding the manner of my death, so unless this hypothetical person with homicide on their mind was going to kill me with sex, I might fear whatever they had planned. :D

Well, as long as you die happy.

Originally posted by Inviolable
.
So you say being a christian is the safest religion in the U.S. I would say you are wrong. It may have been 3 or 4 years ago but it isnt any more.

What as changed so much in the past 3-4 years?

People believe so strongly about what they want to believe that they are willing to try and force it on you and if they'er not trying to force what they believe on you then they are trying to tell you what you believe is wrong.

I think this is where you get confussed with my questions. I don't want you to change your belief, but when you tell me something I like to see proof. If there were solid proof then all the problems related to religion would be solved. I am searching for answers people seem to have strong beliefs but yet don't have solid proof, this confusses me. Like I said before I believe in ghost because I have seen what I believe was a ghost. I also believe that ghost can be explained through searching for the correct answers. So I look for solid proof of what I have seen not a fairy tail in a book. I may never know the answer or maybe 1 day science will show what ghosts are????

Originally posted by Inviolable
Youre right I do take it to personal.

I try not to make personal attacks against you if you notice I use words like some folks or people in general. I don't personally know you, but I do know many holy rollers.

If I say all I am doing is telling you what I believe because you ask me, then why is it so important for me to show you proof of anything. It's just what I believe.

This confusses me about statements you have made and what Christians believe. Isn't it the Christian belief to spread the word, show people the way? If so then isn't very important to be able to back up that belief? Also IF Christ is the true way then wouldn't be very important to have solid proof?

Please dont go past what I just said and tell me if its all I believe then why cant I admit youre right. Because what I believe is the right thing to believe to me.

Once again you are getting me confussed with someone else, I didn't say you are wrong I ask for evidence. We both believe in some sort of higher/other power, you have a strong belief that you know this power. I have yet to see any evidence or proof of mans formed religion to hold any proof. If I believe in something and want to share it with others then I also want to be able to supply proof. Plus as I've seen you and others post, man has free will, then what is wrong with finding the 1 true religion?


God did in fact prove to me that he exist. He came to me through emotions. I have had this conversation with other people and it did drag out a bit. It was emotions God gave me and not my own. I have been ask how could I tell the difference between God given emotions and my own.
My best and fastest responce is, If God gives you an emotion, you know its from God.

Be VERY carefull with feeling this many men have killed and commited murder while using Gods name/feeling his emotion. I know that sounds harsh but think about it hard.



My point in saying that you will go to hell is more then just saying you will b urn for eternity after you die.
There is so much to say to that then just suffering in a pit of fire.
I dont mean you will feel sad or burning for eternity is bad, I mean in life you are doing so much more to effect good and bad then you are imagining now. Once you are dead you will understand how much so. The effect of understanding this will not be something you will be able to recover from.
So I am saying learn what you can from God now while you are alive.

The last part, how do you know what death is like? have you flat lined or something?

Originally posted by mad dog
I try not to make personal attacks against you if you notice I use words like some folks or people in general. I don't personally know you, but I do know many holy rollers.

O.K.


This confusses me about statements you have made and what Christians believe. Isn't it the Christian belief to spread the word, show people the way? If so then isn't very important to be able to back up that belief? Also IF Christ is the true way then wouldn't be very important to have solid proof?

Spreading the word and showing the way isnt what you think it is.
The way a christian is suppose to do that is by telling people what God has done for them. Thats it.
Basically all we as christians are suppose to do is raise your curiosity about God. If you have people in your face preaching to you. Tell them they are wrong and what I said. That all they are suppose to do is tell you what God did for them.



Once again you are getting me confussed with someone else, I didn't say you are wrong I ask for evidence. We both believe in some sort of higher/other power, you have a strong belief that you know this power. I have yet to see any evidence or proof of mans formed religion to hold any proof. If I believe in something and want to share it with others then I also want to be able to supply proof. Plus as I've seen you and others post, man has free will, then what is wrong with finding the 1 true religion?

Nothing, see you soon.




Be VERY carefull with feeling this many men have killed and commited murder while using Gods name/feeling his emotion. I know that sounds harsh but think about it hard.

O.K I will be carefull about telling people God has showed himself to me through emotions.

You seen ghost?
I believe what you have seen were demons. I could tell you more?





The last part, how do you know what death is like? have you flat lined or something?

No my father passed away and came back, then told me, then died again.
Just kidding. Its in the bible.

Originally posted by mad dog
What as changed so much in the past 3-4 years?

A lot has changed recently. Did you know that the U.S use to have more missionaries leaving this country then any other? Now other countries are sending them here, in the hopes to find more missionaries.


I think this is where you get confussed with my questions. I don't want you to change your belief, but when you tell me something I like to see proof. If there were solid proof then all the problems related to religion would be solved. I am searching for answers people seem to have strong beliefs but yet don't have solid proof, this confusses me. Like I said before I believe in ghost because I have seen what I believe was a ghost. I also believe that ghost can be explained through searching for the correct answers. So I look for solid proof of what I have seen not a fairy tail in a book. I may never know the answer or maybe 1 day science will show what ghosts are????

I can tell you exactly what I think the ghost are?
God doesn't want to leave absolute proof. He does leave proof, maybe you just dont see it the way God meant it to be seen?
Once you do worship God he does give you absolute proof. Haven't you ever wondered why people have such strong faith?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Inviolable
I can tell you exactly what I think the ghost are?
===============================
Tell us.

Are you sure you want to know?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Just kidding. Its in the bible.

How did the Bible's many authors know what death is like? If you are to claim "it was knowledge imparted to them by God", how can you have assurance of its solidity as truth?

Are you sure you want to know?

Pray tell, go on about these ghosts, if you would.

Originally posted by Evakian
How did the Bible's many authors know what death is like? If you are to claim "it was knowledge imparted to them by God", how can you have assurance of its solidity as truth?

God told me. To bad you are not in the loop. Maybe he told your cat? hehe



Pray tell, go on about these ghosts, if you would.

Ghost are demons that are on the earth to fool people. Demons know all there is to know about a person so they can take on the persona of anyone.

Originally posted by Inviolable
God told me.

How? When? and why do you think God would just arbitrarily "tell you" what death is like?

To bad you are not in the loop.

Pity really, in fact, it is a pity that the entire human species in all its existence has never been told by any supernatural source what the afterlife will be, except you.

Maybe he told your cat?

Maybe, one of my cat's ancestors was St. Iams, so it is possible.

Ghost are demons that are on the earth to fool people.

Why has there never been verifiable documentation of a ghost ever?

Demons know all there is to know about a person so they can take on the persona of anyone.

If they know everything about someone, why do you suppose they use such knowledge to the mediocre ends of "fooling people". It doesn't add up, or the ethereal world has a strange sense of humor equal to Tom Greene.

Originally posted by Evakian
How? When? and why do you think God would just arbitrarily "tell you" what death is like?

Because he loves me. Think it was in Dec of 04. In a church.



Pity really, in fact, it is a pity that the entire human species in all its existence has never been told by any supernatural source what the afterlife will be, except you.

He will tell the enitre human species, some of us learn before we die and some of us learn after. You may be one of those that are after =(



Maybe, one of my cat's ancestors was St. Iams, so it is possible.

No telling, I havent a clue what an animal knows.


Why has there never been verifiable documentation of a ghost ever?

Got me, why hasnt there ever been documented verification animals have emotions?


If they know everything about someone, why do you suppose they use such knowledge to the mediocre ends of "fooling people". It doesn't add up, or the ethereal world has a strange sense of humor equal to Tom Greene.

Well, they are demons in the ethereal world. Its not like they are demons in the realistic world, where fooling people would be mediocre.
If someone sees a ghost and believes its a ghost, what religion do you think they will follow?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Because he loves me. Think it was in Dec of 04. In a church.

You mean to say you were sitting there praying and suddenly understood what the afterlife will be?

He will tell the enitre human species, some of us learn before we die and some of us learn after.

In your words, what do you believe is the reason for the selective nature of this, be it different Christians, atheists, and so forth.

You may be one of those that are after =(

Always the procrastinator. :D

Got me, why hasnt there ever been documented verification animals have emotions?

Any person with working senses can see and hear that animals are expressing emotions. Now, if you mean feelings on a deeper level that we humans experience, there is no evidence because they do not, as their brains are less developed than ours.

Well, they are demons in the ethereal world.

If demons exist, chances are that is the only place they do.

If someone sees a ghost and believes its a ghost, what religion do you think they will follow?

None, it all depends on the situation and enviroment in which the person has lived/been raised in.

An Indian man who spends his life hearing about Hindusim but is not an adherent, one day has the misfortune to have delusions of Hindu gods invoked by a playful imagination and lack of reasoning, and so he'd turn to Hinduism or likely be interested in it.

The same goes with a truck driver on a lonely road in America seeing "ghosts" cross the road, being American he is predisposed to turn to Christianity to find answers to quell the debacle.

Originally posted by Evakian
You mean to say you were sitting there praying and suddenly understood what the afterlife will be?

No, I was sitting there listening to the preacher and was overwhelmed by God. That explained a lot.



In your words, what do you believe is the reason for the selective nature of this, be it different Christians, atheists, and so forth.

Selective?
He selcets to tell his followers before they die and doesnt tell the people who dont follow him until after they die.



Always the procrastinator. :D

I'm sorry =(



Any person with working senses can see and hear that animals are expressing emotions. Now, if you mean feelings on a deeper level that we humans experience, there is no evidence because they do not, as their brains are less developed than ours.

I dont have any animals, so I dont spend enough time with them to see what you are saying.


If demons exist, chances are that is the only place they do.

True.



None, it all depends on the situation and enviroment in which the person has lived/been raised in.

exactly


An Indian man who spends his life hearing about Hindusim but is not an adherent, one day has the misfortune to have delusions of Hindu gods invoked by a playful imagination and lack of reasoning, and so he'd turn to Hinduism or likely be interested in it.

That indian guy was fooled pretty good.



The same goes with a truck driver on a lonely road in America seeing "ghosts" cross the road, being American he is predisposed to turn to Christianity to find answers to quell the debacle.

Not likely, but I guess it could happen.
More then likely the guy will become a ghost hunter. But then again. he might rabit, he might.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Apparently you also believe those are the only two choices for anyone. Does this mean that anyone who practices any religion other than Christianity is really worshipping Satan?

Not directly, but false religion is of the devil. Of course, it looks good in order to get people to accept it, but Jesus is the one who leads to eternal life in Heaven. He is the one who can forgive sins.

Originally posted by mad dog
With only 2 choices it sounds more like some are afraid, either believe or go to a place of suffering. So instead of a true solid belief they are choosing to take a safe road. "Better to be safe then sorry", this causes confussion not belief. It would cause people to not search and find answers because they would be afraid of pissing off their God.

If yuo believe in the Lord, you don't have to be afraid. Your sins are forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Spreading the word and showing the way isnt what you think it is.
The way a christian is suppose to do that is by telling people what God has done for them. Thats it.

How do they know God has done it for them? maybe it is something else?
Basically all we as christians are suppose to do is raise your curiosity about God. If you have people in your face preaching to you. Tell them they are wrong and what I said. That all they are suppose to do is tell you what God did for them.

I have a good friend that loves to get in my face about his idea of born again Christianity. I have alot of fun with his ideas about how life should be.


O.K I will be carefull about telling people God has showed himself to me through emotions.

My point is look how many wars or deaths have been caused by some fool saying he was doing what he felt God wanted. I don't think your killing folks????:) If you've had positive emotions then I quess there would be nothing wrong with that.

You seen ghost?
I believe what you have seen were demons. I could tell you more?

I don't doubt there are mischievous spirits{I dont' believe in the devil}. I also feel that with the mischievous spirits there are just as many good spirits. The ghosts that I have seen were just there they caused no harm.


No my father passed away and came back, then told me, then died again.
Just kidding. Its in the bible.

I was just curious, so what you are really telling me is that you have no more of an idea about death then I do? I have met someone that died {more then once} he told me there is something after death but he could not explain what. He doesn't buy into any of the religions, I think he may know better then someone that has never had that type of experience JMO

Originally posted by Inviolable
A lot has changed recently. Did you know that the U.S use to have more missionaries leaving this country then any other? Now other countries are sending them here, in the hopes to find more missionaries.

I still fail to see how Christianity is taking a punch in the nose in this country. Infact I see just the opposite, it seems to be gowing and getting more involved in places it doesn't belong.


I can tell you exactly what I think the ghost are?
God doesn't want to leave absolute proof. He does leave proof, maybe you just dont see it the way God meant it to be seen?
Once you do worship God he does give you absolute proof. Haven't you ever wondered why people have such strong faith?

I have a strong faith, but I do not pretend to know God. If I didn't have a faith then I wouldn't bother searching for answers. Mans religion reminds me of the old timer, example; college what the heck good will that ever do? TV's they'll never catch on, who the heck would drive 1 of those 4 wheeled things horses are stronger. See my point of view except an answer/idea with no knowledge and it causes nothing but confussion and trouble. I can allready see where alot of folks are putting David K{waco} on a pedestal, and forgetting what this horses arse really was like. So who knows 1000 yrs from now people might say he was the 2nd comming.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Ghost are demons that are on the earth to fool people. Demons know all there is to know about a person so they can take on the persona of anyone.

Interesting, then how do you explain it when a ghost helps a person, example; Joe saw a ghost that told him not to fly on a plane that ended up crashing? There are thousands of stories about ghost doing good.

Originally posted by mad dog
Interesting, then how do you explain it when a ghost helps a person, example; Joe saw a ghost that told him not to fly on a plane that ended up crashing? There are thousands of stories about ghost doing good.

A ghost doing good is fooling someone as much or more then a ghost doing bad. If you fear ghost you will more then likely want to avoid them. If you like them then you will more then likely hunt them down.

I mean, if a ghost told me the future I would be looking for them.

Not now but, you get my point.

Originally posted by mad dog
I still fail to see how Christianity is taking a punch in the nose in this country. Infact I see just the opposite, it seems to be gowing and getting more involved in places it doesn't belong.

I guess its a mute point. You see what you see. I see what I see. Maybe we should just move on?




I have a strong faith, but I do not pretend to know God. If I didn't have a faith then I wouldn't bother searching for answers. Mans religion reminds me of the old timer, example; college what the heck good will that ever do? TV's they'll never catch on, who the heck would drive 1 of those 4 wheeled things horses are stronger. See my point of view except an answer/idea with no knowledge and it causes nothing but confussion and trouble. I can allready see where alot of folks are putting David K{waco} on a pedestal, and forgetting what this horses arse really was like. So who knows 1000 yrs from now people might say he was the 2nd comming.

I see it this way.
The Old Testament has been around from about 6 to 8 thousand years. The New Testament has been around roughly 3 thousand years.
So, whats your point?
That people fail to see your point because they are holding onto old things?
You aren't going to be alive a 1000 yrs from now. So how will you even know what you are preaching now will even last that long?
For all you know a 1000 yrs from now Jesus will rule the world and you wont be around for any of it. So why bother saying what may or may not happen a thousand years from now.
The Earth may not even be here in a thousand years.

Originally posted by mad dog
How do they know God has done it for them? maybe it is something else?


Because of God given emotions.





My point is look how many wars or deaths have been caused by some fool saying he was doing what he felt God wanted. I don't think your killing folks????:) If you've had positive emotions then I quess there would be nothing wrong with that.

Happieness in all its forms. But I have no proof for you so, no happieness for you =p


I don't doubt there are mischievous spirits{I dont' believe in the devil}. I also feel that with the mischievous spirits there are just as many good spirits. The ghosts that I have seen were just there they caused no harm.


Whats that saying? The greatest lie the devil ever pulled off, was convincing people he doesnt exist.


I was just curious, so what you are really telling me is that you have no more of an idea about death then I do? I have met someone that died {more then once} he told me there is something after death but he could not explain what. He doesn't buy into any of the religions, I think he may know better then someone that has never had that type of experience JMO


No I havent died. But the guy who you talk about. He died and has no proof of what he seen. So why believe him over me?
Why would God show him anything if God knew the guy wasn't dead yet?
I mean he may have flat lined, but that dont mean he is in death now? Youre talking to him arent you?

Originally posted by Inviolable
I guess its a mute point.

moot point

Originally posted by LionelHutz
moot point


Oh, I see now. Thank you.

Originally posted by Inviolable
A ghost doing good is fooling someone as much or more then a ghost doing bad. If you fear ghost you will more then likely want to avoid them. If you like them then you will more then likely hunt them down.

I mean, if a ghost told me the future I would be looking for them.

Not now but, you get my point.

I find this interesting also, this would mix over into finding God. Kind of a catch 22, God doing good may be a lie it could be your devil fooling you?????????

Back to spirits why can't there be helpfull or good spirits why would they all have to be bad? To me this seems very foolish, what would you do if someone you knew{dead} came to you and guided you through something? I don't understand how you can buy into the God thing but dismiss ghost all together as possibly being good?

Originally posted by Inviolable
The Old Testament has been around from about 6 to 8 thousand years. The New Testament has been around roughly 3 thousand years.
So, whats your point?

Does anyone know the real time frame the testaments have been around this doesn't sound right? I may be wrong just wondering.


That people fail to see your point because they are holding onto old things?

People holding onto the old is fine if the old is truth. I've heard much talk come from the old about different things seamonsters dragons, elfs, etc..... How many of these stories are true?


You aren't going to be alive a 1000 yrs from now. So how will you even know what you are preaching now will even last that long?

I bet if I wanted to play a dirty trick on the people of the future it would not be that hard. Bury something in a place were it won't be found for many years make up a BS story that could seem somewhat true. I hope you see my point stories have away of changing and growing even if they aren't true.


For all you know a 1000 yrs from now Jesus will rule the world and you wont be around for any of it. So why bother saying what may or may not happen a thousand years from now.
The Earth may not even be here in a thousand years.

How very true and you just made my point, people of a thousand years past didn't care about us either. They used religion to gain power{this is fact} so which religion was true if any? The religion that was more agressive won the push. Some religions were lost others grew so if the past can't help us where do we turn next? If there was a Jesus then there must be some solid proof somewhere? If there wasn't a Jesus then maybe we have found all there is?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Whats that saying? The greatest lie the devil ever pulled off, was convincing people he doesnt exist.

The greatest thing done to get followers was to create a devil? Sorry but You can not have a God that is all powerfull and all loving. Then turn around and say there is a satan, this means you would believe in another God like creature, remember God is a jealous God ;). Either God would have to be both or It is not alone in the kingdom of godem. My point is that suppose God is all power at the same time all forgiving loving etc... It has total control over ALL. This means It would be one in the same as the devil. I do not buy into any of the devil garbage being sold, it is a scare tactic and a waste of time. It also takes away from the real search for who or what is God.


No I havent died. But the guy who you talk about. He died and has no proof of what he seen. So why believe him over me?

I can't say who I believe but lets say you live on a lake and bob lives in a sand pit, who am I going to take swimming lessons from?

Why would God show him anything if God knew the guy wasn't dead yet?

He claimed he did feel something just not what preachers preach. So maybe he found the true answer just not the 1 fromed religions suggest?

I mean he may have flat lined, but that dont mean he is in death now? Youre talking to him arent you?

Actually he may be dead now I have not seen him in a long time and his health wasn't great. Lets face it though he was closer to death then you or I so maybe he was learning the answer?

Originally posted by mad dog
I find this interesting also, this would mix over into finding God. Kind of a catch 22, God doing good may be a lie it could be your devil fooling you?????????

Back to spirits why can't there be helpfull or good spirits why would they all have to be bad? To me this seems very foolish, what would you do if someone you knew{dead} came to you and guided you through something? I don't understand how you can buy into the God thing but dismiss ghost all together as possibly being good?

I would think the person was a demon trying to fool me. Demons do know all there is to know about someone. So they can take on the persona of anyone.

Originally posted by mad dog
Does anyone know the real time frame the testaments have been around this doesn't sound right? I may be wrong just wondering.

No, not really. The dead sea scrolls are really really old and there are text and books that are really really old that use books from the bible as exaplmes for a religion. I guess I can get exact time frames if I look.



People holding onto the old is fine if the old is truth. I've heard much talk come from the old about different things seamonsters dragons, elfs, etc..... How many of these stories are true?

Well, it all had to come from someplace. More then likely there is some truth to some of it. If not all of it. Not saying the whole of it is true as a story, what I am saying is some where some how someone found some truth behind the fiction at one time or another.
Please keep that to pixies and unicorns.




I bet if I wanted to play a dirty trick on the people of the future it would not be that hard. Bury something in a place were it won't be found for many years make up a BS story that could seem somewhat true. I hope you see my point stories have away of changing and growing even if they aren't true.


If all they found were your little box or whatever. Then I doubt it would even be known to anyone past the person who found it. That is if someone from the scientific community did in fact find it.
Generaly speaking an archeologist finding a pot in the middle of no where may wonder where it came from but if no proof is found, blah blah blah.
There is no point to what you just said. The christian religion wasnt found by an archeologist. It was passed on for more then 2 thousand years now. The bible hasnt changed in all that time. You can say it has but you have no proof. The bible has remained the same I can assure you.



How very true and you just made my point, people of a thousand years past didn't care about us either. They used religion to gain power{this is fact} so which religion was true if any? The religion that was more agressive won the push. Some religions were lost others grew so if the past can't help us where do we turn next? If there was a Jesus then there must be some solid proof somewhere? If there wasn't a Jesus then maybe we have found all there is?

No one from the bible used religion to gain power. No one who worshiped God that is. Some pharos used it to set themselves up as Gods to strengthen their stature as a leader.
Do you research what you know?
I keep telling you there is solid concrete proof of Jesus.
You deny yourself the proof.

Originally posted by mad dog
The greatest thing done to get followers was to create a devil? Sorry but You can not have a God that is all powerfull and all loving. Then turn around and say there is a satan, this means you would believe in another God like creature, remember God is a jealous God ;). Either God would have to be both or It is not alone in the kingdom of godem. My point is that suppose God is all power at the same time all forgiving loving etc... It has total control over ALL. This means It would be one in the same as the devil. I do not buy into any of the devil garbage being sold, it is a scare tactic and a waste of time. It also takes away from the real search for who or what is God.


I am not to sure what you are saying here. I think the basic premise is, christians made the devil up to help scare people into worshiping God?
And that if indeed there were a devil the devil would be in a position to be worshiped?
So God wouldnt have made him?
Just making sure I understand you here. You can get back to me with yes or no answers to my questions please. I would be gratefull.



I can't say who I believe but lets say you live on a lake and bob lives in a sand pit, who am I going to take swimming lessons from?

Bob in the sand pit may have been a navy seal. You dont know.



He claimed he did feel something just not what preachers preach. So maybe he found the true answer just not the 1 fromed religions suggest?

Yeah true, but then again death does funny things to the body and mind.


Actually he may be dead now I have not seen him in a long time and his health wasn't great. Lets face it though he was closer to death then you or I so maybe he was learning the answer?

Closer to death yes, but not closer to the answers of life and death.

Originally posted by Inviolable
I keep telling you there is solid concrete proof of Jesus.
You deny yourself the proof.

I'll bite...what proof would that be?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I'll bite...what proof would that be?

I already told you. God gives you proof after you ask Jesus for forgiveness.

Originally posted by Inviolable
No, I was sitting there listening to the preacher and was overwhelmed by God. That explained a lot.

God, or some emotional surge of feeling brought on by the pragmatic minister?

He selcets to tell his followers before they die and doesnt tell the people who dont follow him until after they die.

Then why do millions upon millions of devoted Christians not know exactly what awaits them?

I dont have any animals, so I dont spend enough time with them to see what you are saying.

No matter, another topic, another time.

That indian guy was fooled pretty good.

I bet the Indian guy would say the same of you. He felt the power of Ishvara during a ceremony on the Ganges and was transformed forever. How do you know he is wrong and you are right, if there is no evidence aside from this emotional feeling, that he also gets the same or similiar feeling from his ceremony and belief.

Originally posted by Inviolable
I already told you. God gives you proof after you ask Jesus for forgiveness.

One human's emotions are not sufficient proof to other humans that there is indeed a divine being.

Originally posted by Evakian
One human's emotions are not sufficient proof to other humans that there is indeed a divine being.


Maybe you dont spend enough time with humans to see what I am saying.

Originally posted by Evakian
God, or some emotional surge of feeling brought on by the pragmatic minister?


Yes, the preacher had an evil mind emotion control device.
No, actually I'm a hippy and it was drug induced.
O.K really, it was God.


Then why do millions upon millions of devoted Christians not know exactly what awaits them?

Their time has not yet come.





I bet the Indian guy would say the same of you. He felt the power of Ishvara during a ceremony on the Ganges and was transformed forever. How do you know he is wrong and you are right, if there is no evidence aside from this emotional feeling, that he also gets the same or similiar feeling from his ceremony and belief.

Got me, I dont know a thing about his ceremony. Is the Ganges cold? maybe it was some kind of induced feeling due to self mutilation? Does it get cold in Bangladesh? What time of the year was it? Rivers never get ice on them, well few do. Was it cold enough there to freeze the surface of the Ganges river? Are you talking about that river?
Or are you talking about a flock of gansters? Ganges, plural for gang?
Or were they planks of some kind on a boat?
More info may help me decide.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Yes, the preacher had an evil mind emotion control device.
No, actually I'm a hippy and it was drug induced.
O.K really, it was God.

The two unlikely scenarios are not the only options to shoot down the possibility of the third. You seem not so good at coming up with reasons, like in the death situation previously.

Their time has not yet come.

They worship and pray, fast, and spread the Gospel. They live moral lives and love God. It seems highly convienient for you to say "Their time has not yet come" because you have this knowledge and they do not, although you are a born-again Christian while this hypothetical person has lived this way all their life.
In other words, you can't give a proper answer, probably on the fallback of not knowing "God's Plan" for us, never once coming to terms with the idea that no such being exists or has interaction with our lives.

Got me, I dont know a thing about his ceremony.

Like you and the preacher talking? Indeed.

Is the Ganges cold?

I