If I recall Terri Shiavo was starved to death to end her misery, why was she not issued a lethal dose of drugs? speaking of that, if the terminally ill want to die why do the doctors not just tell them to stop eating and starve to death. During the Shiavo case we were told that it was a painless, and in fact euphoric way to die. One of the reasons we are given why the terminally ill in Oregon wont kill themselves with guns or by jumping off of tall bridges is they want to die with dignity. So, in order to please everyone, those for and against "assisted" suicide, I say doctors recommend the terminally ill just stop eating and die a dignified death of starvation.

1st If someone wants to die that is there business healthy or not.

With that said there are those out there that honestly believe we should all hold out until the last possible moment, because one never knows the cure could be found in the next hr.

Many people fast for the euphoric bliss it causes. I've read that after five days, the hunger pains stop, and you aren't even concerned with food anymore. After the five days, the amount of time you can last fasting is limited only by how much fat your body has to eat. It goes into a starvation mode where it cuts back immensely on calories burnt for energy. It would take an awful long time for many terminally ill patients to starve themselves to death. Having never done it myself, I can offer no personal experience on what happens after the biological switch happens.

I'm not so sure it is such a com and peacefull way to go. There have been many true stories in the past that have talked about going hungry turning into cannibals and becoming very violent. The body gets to a certain point and the brain starts shutting off{protecting itself} what is left is our reptile brain which wants to do nothing but survive at what ever the cost. I think these terminally ill folks are on such good drugs that they could care less. I could not see where starving "to death" would be all that great, unless one wants to get in touch with their animal side?

Reptile brain? Please elaborate.

Trav, that's an excellent point, but take it a step further.
If lethal injection is "cruel and unusual" and Terri Schiavo's starvation was painless, then starvation would be a good compromise between the pro and anti capital punishment crowds.

It's not like she was wolfing down a Double Whopper and a plate of cheese fries at every meal for pity's sake. She was on a tube. They cut off her life support because she was brain-dead. Not unlike some of the posters on this forum.

Sounds like a reasonable proposal - nobody can make somebody else eat. It takes weeks to die from lack of food - they could die much quicker from lack of water - a matter of days.

Originally posted by DrewM
Sounds like a reasonable proposal - nobody can make somebody else eat. It takes weeks to die from lack of food - they could die much quicker from lack of water - a matter of days.

Sorry to contradict you and Travh but if you dig a little bit deeper this proposal makes no sense for most terminally ill people.
In many cases, people with terminal diseases in hospitals are under respiratory assistance and are fed by intraveinous means (sorry if this is not the appropriate english medical terminology, we only have a dubbed version of ER in France !)

Plus, it would be totally contrary to basic medical ethics to let people starve to death in hospitals.

Most of the dilemma is often to stop artificial respiration, which would lead to death. Not feeding someone would be exactly the same, just much more shocking !

Would any of you like to hear your mother/father has died of starvation in an hospital after days of agony ?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Reptile brain? Please elaborate.

The reptile part of our brain is the part that does our survival, basic instinct. Then we have the outer part of the brain that does the rest joy jealous love etc.... There was a very interesting show on TV {science channel???} they were talking about cases where folks had started to starve to death. They showed how the body started feeding off of itself and then how the outer brain shuts down etc... Starvation in my opinion is not a pleasent way to die infact it seemed very painfull and tends to put people in a very basic survival mode.

nobody can make somebody else eat. Wrong they are force feeding the protesting kidnap victims at Guantanamo. They are being very cruel about it too.

Hunger strikers allege 'force feed torture' at Guantánamo
Jamie Wilson in Washington
Friday October 21, 2005

Prisoners on hunger strike at Guantánamo Bay have alleged US troops punished them by repeatedly inserting and removing dirty feeding tubes until the detainees vomited blood.

Declassified notes released by defence lawyers for three men being held at the prison camp on Cuba said the prisoners came to view the large feeding tubes - described as the thickness of a finger - as objects of torture. "They were forcibly shoved up the detainees' noses and down into their stomachs," the lawyers reported to a federal judge in August. "No anaesthesia or sedative was provided."

According to their affidavits force feedings resulted in prisoners "vomiting up substantial amounts of blood. When they vomited up blood, the soldiers mocked and cursed at them, and taunted them with statements like 'look what your religion has brought you'."

Yousef al-Shehri, 21, of Saudi Arabia, said guards had removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and reinserted it into another without cleaning it. Another said a navy doctor had put a tube in his nose and down his throat and "kept moving the tube up and down" until he finally "started violently throwing up blood".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1597412,00.html

Toture is NOW an American value.

What makes you qualify the baser natures of the brain as reptilian, mad dog?

And, well, I think it is the state of mind that you are in that makes you revert back to those instincts. People fasting intentionally would seem to be intellectually shielded from it, knowing they are in control. A person on a forced fast would find it much harder to be calm about it, I think.

Toture is NOW an American value.

This incident would be inconclusive in proving that statement. Soldiers can be made to do anything in service of their government, citizens cannot. The willingness of citizens to accept torture as a necessary measure to protect America would qualify it, at least the spirit of the words, if not as literal fact.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
What makes you qualify the baser natures of the brain as reptilian, mad dog?

As special as this would make me feel I can't take credit, so to answer your question I didn't scientist did. Do a search on the net it's there.

And, well, I think it is the state of mind that you are in that makes you revert back to those instincts.

I am to say the least surprised that you have never heard of this with all of your post about how the mind works. When we starve we don't have a choice the outer brain shuts itself down as a form of protection, it will come back if the body can find enough nutrition. The problem with this is that we remember what we did, so in the case of cannibles at the time they survived but in the end it drove them nutz.

People fasting intentionally would seem to be intellectually shielded from it, knowing they are in control.

I don't know much about this but have seen a few studies on healthy people starving, it was not the least bit pleasent. Russia in years gone past had a terrible time with food, they sold their children etc for food. Let me clear this up they didn't sell there children so they could buy food they sold them as food. Alot weren't even bought they were hunted down like cattle. I'll try to find more info about this may take some time. This of course is not the only case of a group of people starving its the only one I can think of at this time.

A person on a forced fast would find it much harder to be calm about it, I think.

You may be correct some one that is ready for something can last longer then one that is not. The problem still remains when the outer brain shuts down thought is not involved survival is. The brain tells the body it wants food. No matter how you might have believed in fasting it will change once the outer brain turns off.

Originally posted by mad dog
Russia in years gone past had a terrible time with food, they sold their children etc for food. Let me clear this up they didn't sell there children so they could buy food they sold them as food. Alot weren't even bought they were hunted down like cattle. I'll try to find more info about this may take some time.

I just did a real quick look on the net and found more info then I cared too. Russia had atleast 2 major times the 20's and then again in the 40's {Leningrad}. Both times starvation and the reptile brain took over, very very sad. People lost control and those that didn't die went straight to a real hell their own. I think you'll find it interesting if you do a search it is not pleasent.

Yes Trav, wanting people to suffer. Typical Republican.

LOL, I am no republican, and if I "want people to suffer" then you want to kill them, fair enough?

Yes, Travh has renounced his Republican party membership a few months ago. Notice the line under his avatar.

Originally posted by Travh20
LOL, I am no republican

Yet --absent an actual Nazi candidate running for political office-- you are nevertheless reduced to invariably voting for the Republicans.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, your one dull son of a bitch freethinker.

How about after they're dead, we can chop them up and feed them to starving orphans! Kill two birds with one stone right? Im just sad that i'm comatose intolerant.

Originally posted by Travh20
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, your one dull son of a bitch freethinker.

<gasp!>

An absolutely devastating riposte!!

I am skewered by your rapier wit.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
How about after they're dead, we can chop them up and feed them to starving orphans! Kill two birds with one stone right?

One day in the future, after the Conserva-Fascist's insane, anti-human agenda has had time to come to full fruition, it very possibly will come to that.

Gee, thanks for ruinin my joke. :rolleyes:

If I recall Terri Shiavo was starved to death to end her misery, why was she not issued a lethal dose of drugs? speaking of that, if the terminally ill want to die why do the doctors not just tell them to stop eating and starve to death. During the Shiavo case we were told that it was a painless, and in fact euphoric way to die. One of the reasons we are given why the terminally ill in Oregon wont kill themselves with guns or by jumping off of tall bridges is they want to die with dignity. So, in order to please everyone, those for and against "assisted" suicide, I say doctors recommend the terminally ill just stop eating and die a dignified death of starvation.

At the time of the Shiavo case I said she would not have had to die in that slow agonizing way if the state she was in had a law like Oregon. Believe it or not, if you're going to die, there are some ways that are better than others.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I am skewered by your rapier wit.
First of all, it's a rapist's wit (as referenced from the movie Dumb and Dumber). Secondly, damn straight you were. :)

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Gee, thanks for ruinin my joke. :rolleyes:
He has a tendency to do that...

Originally posted by Travh20
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, your one dull son of a bitch freethinker.
Jesus, Trav, you even sound like a military man.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Today... is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few marines! God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays his games, and we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps, so you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand!?!?!?

Well, FT - are you going to ruin this humor with some of that patented anti-God, anti-marine, anti-US palaver.......

Well, are you??? Then quit!, you slimy fucking walrus-looking piece of shit. Get the fuck off of my obstacle. Get the fuck down off of my obstacle!

God, I love that movie...

LOL, me too.

How tall are you freethinker?

Sir, 5'9" sir!

5'9"? i didnt know they stacked shit that high!

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: [Chanting] This is my rifle.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: [Grabbing his crotch] This is my gun.
Marines: This is for fighting.
Marines: [Grabbing their crotches] This is for fun.

Whats your name fat body?

Sir, Leanord Lawrence sir!

Lawrence? lawrence of arabia?

Sir no Sir!

lawrence? that name sounds like royalty, are you royalty?

Sir no sir!


I dont like the name lawrence, only faggots and sailors are called lawrence, from now on your Gomer Pile!

Sir Yes Sir!


:D

Did someone say drugs? My beeper went off.
Remember when the White House said that "buying marijuana supports terror" and what a ridiculous flop that turned out to be?
We're spending billions on an unwinnable war on drugs. Take that money and put it toward the war on terror! Maybe if they'd done that sooner, they would have found Osama bin Roadrunner by now.
Look at this latest mess with the tunnel. It's not the only one, that's for sure. These are very sophisticated people, and they will always be miles ahead of these bumbling nitwits who laughably believe they are "controlling" drugs.
End it. The gov't is only humiliating itself and the nation.

Originally posted by boykorda
We're spending billions on an unwinnable war on drugs. Take that money and put it toward the war on terror!

Why clip your nails, they will grow back.

Maybe if they'd done that sooner, they would have found Osama bin Roadrunner by now.

"Winning" or "ending" the war on terror will be more difficult and unfeasible than the war on drugs.

These are very sophisticated people

Yes, only some impoverished farmhand that fills a balloon with cocaine, eats the balloon, vomits it out after crossing the border, and selling the cocaine to a pregnant prostitute could be considered cultured.

and they will always be miles ahead of these bumbling nitwits who laughably believe they are "controlling" drugs.
End it. The gov't is only humiliating itself and the nation.

But stopping a bigger influx of narcotics into our nation than there would be if we did not expend the resources to stop it. It is not a matter of control, that is near impossible; it is a matter of curbing drug trafficking. That tunnel discovery halted a prominent system to get here with drugs, now the hole is plugged, and that slows them down, bringing all the fewer addictions along with the lengthened break.

And Sargeant Hartman has got to be one of the greatest film characters, ever.

Did someone say drugs? My beeper went off. Remember when the White House said that "buying marijuana supports terror" and what a ridiculous flop that turned out to be? We're spending billions on an unwinnable war on drugs. Take that money and put it toward the war on terror! Maybe if they'd done that sooner, they would have found Osama bin Roadrunner by now. The kicker is that the US's "war on terror" in Afghanistan has taken it from nothing to the worlds largest supplier of opium. (of course think nothing of that fact that the [US installed] Afghan warlord's first act was to sign an agreement for an oil pipeline...)

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Today... is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few marines! God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays his games, and we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps, so you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand!?!?!?[/i]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Praetorian
Well, FT - are you going to ruin this humor with some of that patented anti-God, anti-marine, anti-US palaver.......

Humor?

Full Metal Jacket was not --that i could tell-- meant to be a comedy.

I do not find the piece of movie dialogue at the top of this thread **humorous**.........i find it deeply, deeply sickening that a society sees fit to indoctrinate its soldiers [i.e., the Marine grunts in the referenced movie] with that sort of mindless bloodlust.

The most meaningful part of that film for me was the following piece of dialogue----


Pogue Colonel: Marine, what is that button on your body armor?
Private Joker: A peace symbol, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Where'd you get it?
Private Joker: I don't remember, sir.
Pogue Colonel: What is that you've got written on your helmet?
Private Joker: "Born to Kill", sir.
Pogue Colonel: You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
Private Joker: No, sir.
Pogue Colonel: You'd better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you.
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Pogue Colonel: The what?
Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?
Private Joker: Our side, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Don't you love your country?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pvt Joker actually possessed a great deal of intelligence, (vis his reference to Carl Jung and the duality of man) but it was of no use to him in a world where blind unquestioning obedience was the order of the day, and where his superiors were clueless simpletons (vis the reference to "the Jungian thing" flying miles over the head of the Colonel that Pvt Joker was talking to) for whom the willingness to be used as cannon fodder was the only quality wanted from or expected from the Marine recruits.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I do not find the piece of movie dialogue at the top of this thread **humorous**.........i find it deeply, deeply sickening that a society sees fit to indoctrinate its soldiers [i.e., the Marine grunts in the referenced movie] with that sort of mindless bloodlust.
Which ground-fighting soldiers don't have a penchant for "mindless bloodlust"? Russian ones? Perhaps Polish??? I don't know about you, but I think it's safe to assume they all do...

They're all "indoctrinated", for lack of a better word.
Originally posted by Freethinker
Pvt Joker actually possessed a great deal of intelligence, (vis his reference to Carl Jung and the duality of man) but it was of no use to him in a world where blind unquestioning obedience was the order of the day, and where his superiors were clueless simpletons (vis the reference to "the Jungian thing" flying miles over the head of the Colonel that Pvt Joker was talking to) for whom the willingness to be used as cannon fodder was the only quality wanted from or expected from the Marine recruits.
True, however they were on a battlefield, not in a classroom. That aside, I too, thought the scene was interesting. (And don't think for one second that I didn't take it the same way you did.)

freethinker, your ass looks like 150 pounds of chewed bubble gum.

...........

You had best square your ass away and start shitting me Tiffany cufflinks or I will definitely fuck you up...

freethinker, looks like the best part of you ran down the crack of your mommas ass and ended up as a brown stain on the matress! I think you been cheated!

Originally intimated by Freethinker
I hate our military!! Fucking fascists!!!
Who said that!? Who the fuck said that!?!?!? Who's the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant!? Nobody, huh??? The fairy fucking godmother said it. Out-fucking-standing.

Is that you John Wayne? is this me?

Sir, I said it, sir.

Well, no shit. What do we have here, a fucking comedian! Private, Joker! I admire your honesty. Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister!

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Who said that!? Who the fuck said that!?!?!? Who's the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant!? Nobody, huh??? The fairy fucking godmother said it. Out-fucking-standing.

Sir, I said it, sir.

Well, no shit. What do we have here, a fucking comedian! Private, Joker! I admire your honesty. Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister!

HAH!!!....i'd forgotten that part.

That bit WAS off-the-hook fucking hilarious.

That's what I'm talking about...

Parts of it WERE totally comedic, but I guess you're right - you can't really call it a comedy. Pretty close, though.

Dark humor, good script.

Private Joker: How can you shoot women and children?
Door Gunner: Easy... you don't lead 'em so much.[laughs] Ain't war hell?

"I got me 182 dead gooks killed!"
Originally posted by Evakian
Dark humor, good script.

Private Joker: How can you shoot women and children?
Door Gunner: Easy... you don't lead 'em so much.[laughs] Ain't war hell?
That's one of my favorite lines, Evak, if not, my favorite. Sick, but funny in a dark and really twisted way.

Originally posted by Evakian

Private Joker: How can you shoot women and children?
Door Gunner: Easy... you don't lead 'em so much.[laughs]

THAT is one of the lines of the movie that I found to be perfectly evocative of America, its relentless militarism and imperalism, and its atitude toward the rest of the people on the planet.

It is also one of the most sickening sentiments I have ever heard come out of the mouth of a human being.