According to today’s edition of “The Guardian”, nearly half the workforce of the UK have the reading and writing skills of children leaving primary school.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/further/story/0,,1693572,00.html

I dread to think what percent of the American population falls into that category.

Originally posted by Catch 3
According to today’s edition of “The Guardian”, nearly half the workforce of the UK have the reading and writing skills of children leaving primary school.

I dread to think what percent of the American population falls into that category.

Why don't you look it up?

We could turn the clock back year after year and end up with the same thing. How many great leaders from yesteryear couldn't even read????????????????????

Literacy is an important factor to living in a complex world, but I can't help but think that maybe at least some of the reason people choose to remain illiterate is as a rebellion to that very complexity. Perhaps these people wish to return to a much simpler lifestyle, and their refusal to read and participate in modern society is a psychological feedback mechanism, and I think it physically manifests itself at times as dyslexia.

At any rate, illiterate people can be just as fun and smart and interesting as literate people. Richard Branson, CEO of Virgin, is highly dyslexic, and hates to deal with numbers and figures and dreary stuff.

I disagree with you, Napster, at least for the majority of illiterate people. I think it's mostly because they didn't get the opportunity to enjoy reading and are not living in an an environment where reading is valued.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Why don't you look it up?
Because if I do I’ll feel compelled to post it. I'm Swedish and I'm not welcomed to post such things or the whole ”anti-American” hysteria will kick up again.

You’re an American, right? Maybe you should post it. You won't suffer the same repercussions. Yes, I think you should do it. Pretty please with sugar on top?
:) :) :)

Originally posted by mad dog
How many great leaders from yesteryear couldn't even read????????????????????
If I’m not mistaken Nikita Khrushchev was illiterate until he was in his 20’s.

Doesn't work that way Catch. You can be American and still be anti-American! Weird how that works, isn't it?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Doesn't work that way Catch. You can be American and still be anti-American! Weird how that works, isn't it?
I don't make the norms here, Napster. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em - and you've been in enough of the scuttles (right alongside me) to know how it goes. :)

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Literacy is an important factor to living in a complex world, but I can't help but think that maybe at least some of the reason people choose to remain illiterate is as a rebellion to that very complexity.

This could hold some truth, I remember a time when folks would put down college because it was BS.

Perhaps these people wish to return to a much simpler lifestyle, and their refusal to read and participate in modern society is a psychological feedback mechanism, and I think it physically manifests itself at times as dyslexia.

Interesting, if someone doesn't like the society they're dealing with they can manifest a disease that will keep them where they feel the happiest. I could believe this to a small degree, example someone that loses a loved one dies soon after of a broken heart



At any rate, illiterate people can be just as fun and smart and interesting as literate people. Richard Branson, CEO of Virgin, is highly dyslexic, and hates to deal with numbers and figures and dreary stuff.

I agee with this just because a person does not follow the norm does not mean they are stupid.

Catch 3 if you post something that is research by others this does not mean you are anti- American. I could post something from the KKK this doesn't make me racist, unless of course I agreed{which I would not}. If you deide to stay with us you'll have to build up a suit of leather{stronger hide] otherwise you won't make it long.

Maybe in France they don't have the same problems Astra, but citizens in the States in my opinion suffer from a great deal of information overload. It wasn't too long ago when I myself had no patience to read anything substantial. Now I visit the bookstore regularly once more to read whatever holds my attention for more than three seconds. I can't imagine actually buying anything though...

I notice that literacy itself in the United States is on two levels. The first level, the most you read is a pulp novel once in a while, except as required by school/career, which is generally regarded as a chore. The second, you read extensively for one reason or another, due to personal interest or as a side effect of one's station in life.

I would argue that certain instances of level one should actually be considered illiteracy, because the desire and spirit of acquiring information through the written word just isn't there. Some people just aren't verbally oriented enough to care to pick up random information from written materials. It's not that they can't read, it just doesn't fulfill them to the level that it does more literate people.

At any rate, I believe that all persons contribute significantly to human progress, whether they do it consciously or not, and it doesn't help to force people to become 'literate' as is socially acceptable. Which, to be intellectually honest, includes schooling.

Originally posted by Catch 3
Because if I do I’ll feel compelled to post it. I'm Swedish and I'm not welcomed to post such things or the whole ”anti-American” hysteria will kick up again.

You’re an American, right? Maybe you should post it. You won't suffer the same repercussions. Yes, I think you should do it. Pretty please with sugar on top?
:) :) :)

Why let that stop you. We already know you are anti-American. The article was about literacy in the United Kingdom but you simply had to make a veiled negative reference to the United States. Your anti-Americanism is transparent and boring.

Psst... don't let that bother you Catch, Frogger's pretty transparent and boring too.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say that too loud?

People read for two reasons, to gain information and for pleasure. Both types of reading are on the increase. More and more items require reading an instruction manual before using the item. More and more people are also reading for pleasure. Just look at the number of book sales annually in the United States. Despite t.v., video games, etc., the number of books sold increases all the time. Where there were once little book shops that catered to a small population we now have Borders and Barnes and Noble filled with people purchasing books. Bools are sold at Costco and in supermarkets. Rather than a lessening in reading for enjoyment the United States is seeing an increase in that activity.

I read a statistic somewhere that says only a small fraction of books bought from bookstores in the US are actually read.

Of course. People get in their cars, go to the bookstore, spend time walking up and down the aisles perusing titles and purchase books they aren't going to read. Then they go to the supermarket and buy groceries they aren't going to eat.


I would need a reputable citation before I believed a statistic you 'read somewhere'.

I dread to think what percent of the American population falls into that category.
US is most likely not the most and obviously not the least literate country in the world. So I really don't "dread to think...category". Adult literacy among developed countries that provide mandatory secondary education should all be roughly close. Post a comparative study result and let's see.

Originally posted by Catch 3
Because if I do I’ll feel compelled to post it. I'm Swedish and I'm not welcomed to post such things or the whole ”anti-American” hysteria will kick up again.

But what if it's not as bad as you think it is?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I read a statistic somewhere that says only a small fraction of books bought from bookstores in the US are actually read.

Napsterbater I have to agree with Frogger on this one that statement is just funny :D

Henry where did that 20.00 go did you go out drinking again?

No Lucy I wanted you to be proud of me so I bought a book that I'll never read, hey atleast I didn't drink that money away.

Hey Lucy could you buy some hair spray for me, yeh I know I'm bald but others don't need to find out. :D :D

Ok, I searched the stats...

According to nationmaster.com, the USa are apparently ranking quite badly in literacy (the % of adults who are able to read and write ) : with 97% they rank 68 of the 202 world countries. (1st : Australia, Finland, Norway, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Denmark, with 100 % ; sweden 24 with 99%, France 29 with 99% too). But in fact the 108 first countries all have rates superior to 90%, which is quite amazing (considering they provide relaible stats of course) and the difference between the USA and countrie that rank better is not very relevant.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Why don't you look it up?

Here I waltz in about to post the stats but astra stole my job! :D

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Literacy is an important factor to living in a complex world, but I can't help but think that maybe at least some of the reason people choose to remain illiterate is as a rebellion to that very complexity. Perhaps these people wish to return to a much simpler lifestyle, and their refusal to read and participate in modern society is a psychological feedback mechanism, and I think it physically manifests itself at times as dyslexia.

There is always room for the possibility of subconscious rebellion, but many times illiterate people have it as they were not taught, or have a learning disorder, do not have the discipline or self-respect to learn, were raised in other methods, or born with an inherent hindrance to their ability to learn...and so because their minds function differently, our one-size fits all education and career system often looks down upon the status.

You can be American and still be anti-American!

In all reality, there isn't such a thing as anti-American, in the sense it is used anyway.

I read a statistic somewhere that says only a small fraction of books bought from bookstores in the US are actually read.

This just in from RandomLiteraryStatsCo.-
It apparently seems that nearly a small fraction of people might actually purchase the books they skim through at various stores

Gallup has some competition.

Originally posted by Frogger
Of course. People get in their cars, go to the bookstore, spend time walking up and down the aisles perusing titles and purchase books they aren't going to read.

I'd believe there are plenty of people like that, I see them in bookstores, even know some. As for the food, that is probably far more rare, based on the size of the average American waistline.

but many times illiterate people have it as they were not taught, or have a learning disorder, do not have the discipline or self-respect to learn,

I'm not a huge believer in the idea of discipline, and I don't believe self-respect has anything to do with it. Lots of people just don't care to read, and I don't really blame them.

In all reality, there isn't such a thing as anti-American, in the sense it is used anyway.

Don't tell me that, I've been saying that shit for years.

According to wikipedia, about 1 in 7 adult Americans are functionally illiterate. This amounts to about 40 million people.
Imagine--not being able to read in today's world. A sad and frightening statistic and there's many reasons for it---basically--unable to learn, unwilling to learn.

The statistic I was provided indicates that 10% of Americans are completely illiterate. Just don't ask for a source. :)

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Psst... don't let that bother you Catch, Frogger's pretty transparent and boring too.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say that too loud?
Yes, you did say that too loud. Furthermore, your comment was also extremely transparent. You tried to veil your intentions by disguising it in a hesitant, diplomatic tone while your real purpose in posting it was because you know your statement to be true.

Originally posted by Frogger
People read for two reasons ...
In your case this is certainly true:

1). Comic books
2). Graffiti on shit-house walls.
Originally posted by Frogger
Rather than a lessening in reading for enjoyment the United States is seeing an increase in that activity.
I'm pleased to see that we agree for once.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Ok, I searched the stats...

According to nationmaster.com, .....
Well done, Astra!

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I'm not a huge believer in the idea of discipline, and I don't believe self-respect has anything to do with it. Lots of people just don't care to read, and I don't really blame them.

They don't respect themselves enough to become more active and efficient in society, and they cannot discipline themselves to learn or attempt to learn, which in turn could highlight any disability they have that explains it. Self-discipline and self-respect play a big role in forcing yourself to read, whether you are a child or an adult, you decide how much effort you put into it and you decide how proficient you will become.

I work several hours a week at a library (doing genealogy research for patrons), and we also have an adult literacy course, free, for patrons who cannot read or who read at a very low level of understanding. Many people are quite sincere about wanting to improve their skills, which they never picked up for one reason or the other, and are willing to do the extensive work involved....others, after a few classes, decide it's too much work and drop out.

Needless to say, this phenomenon is probably found worldwide. It is truly up to the individual, if they wish to learn to read or not. Look at Abe Lincoln--he never had formal schooling and taught himself, basically, from books given to him by his stepmom ( who was illiterate. ) However, he remained a poor speller for most of his life, but I'm not going to hold that against him--he got his point across.

Originally posted by Evakian
They don't respect themselves enough to become more active and efficient in society, and they cannot discipline themselves to learn or attempt to learn, which in turn could highlight any disability they have that explains it. Self-discipline and self-respect play a big role in forcing yourself to read, whether you are a child or an adult, you decide how much effort you put into it and you decide how proficient you will become. Sounds like you're advocating study as a means of learning. Pretty dangerous ground there.