hi.
I am muslim. I want to know about christianity.I am going to
be familiar with christian teahings.
first the theology of it.please help me.

Jesus died for our sins, anyone who ask him for forgiveness of thier sins will be forgiven.

Why Jesus did die for your sins?
if he dies what happens that your sins been forgive?
and I want to know more than this.

Originally posted by secondboy
Why Jesus did die for your sins?
if he dies what happens that your sins been forgive?
and I want to know more than this.

2ndboy, read John chapter 1 - you'll notice 'the Word robed itself in flesh and dwelt among us' in verse 14. Why did the Word inhabit a body? So we could follow a living example of the Word. That body was named Jesus (it was a male body). The name means 'Jehovah-saved'. Jehovah means 'self-existant'
The Old Testament talks about Abraham and how the Word talked to him and also considered him, (Abraham) righteous. So we consider the Word is a spirit too. The Word appeared to Moses in a burning bush and told him to tell the people that "I am that I am" sent him (Moses) to lead them out of Egypt. Hence, 'Jehovah' the self existant one.

Jesus' body died on the cross - the Word , the self-existant one didn't die. The proof of that statement is apparent in the book of Acts Chapter 1 & 2.
Isaiah, a prophet of the Words' or Lord, prophisied the coming of the Lord to
dwell among men in chapter 53, I think. Isaiah lived a couple hundred years before Jesus was born but it may have been less, like 70 years. (I'm too lazy to look it up. But also in the book of Joel, (a minor prophet of the Lord) the experience that occurred in the book of Acts, chapter 2 verse 38 (New Testament) was prophisied by Joel. It describes the infilling of the Holy Ghost - which still occurs today. But most people think it's crazy so they don't go to hear the Word at the churches where this occurs. It's a real experience and it makes you feel safe and secure and loved and you know you're not alone anymore. Study the Bible 2ndboy.

Jesus died for our sins because He was the perfect sacrifice -

You want the simple of it?

Jesus was god's son who god sacrificed so that humans can go to heaven. Huamns couldn't go to heaven because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and defying god arbitrary rules. So God decided that they and their decendants should live horrible lives from then on. Now there is a number of giant holes in this story which makes it self contradicting but I won't get into that (almost all religions have them).

Jesus said "Love others as you love yourself." Thats basically the only lesson one needs to be a real christian.

Unfortunatly there as plenty of power hungry assholes that ignore or distort this messege to bring themselves power and money (again just as there is in every religion). They like the bible because it contradicts itself all over the plce and if it doesn't mention something then they make up what ever they want. These people call themselves Christian but are in fact nothing more than oppurtunists.

Hey secondboy!

Mhh, I think an important point is that Christanity is based on Judaism/ the holy scriptures of the Jews.

Christianity sees Jesus Christ as God's son and the so-called "Messiah". Some of the holy Jewish scriptures (the first part of the Christian bible) speak about the coming of a Messiah (very generally speaking a person who'd change things to the better) in the future.

Why did Jesus die for our sins?
There is a very famous quotation from the bible (John 3:26) saying Jesus was sent by God to die so we'd have eternal life and not get lost as 500 lb... pointed out. It also says God did that cause he loved the world this much.
In the verses around John 3:16 Jesus explains why he'd have to die to a person.
He uses examples to explain Jews in this time were familiar with, so it might be a bit hard to understand but I guess it'll help to get the picture a bit.

The bible talks about the sins being "washed away" and being "paid for".
(That's what happens to them)

It'd also be important to mention the Christian belief that Jesus did not remain that but "rose again" (he became alive again) on the third day after his death.

I'd second what 500lb said about loving people as yourself being central to Christianity (and that people often act so differently!).
Loving God is another important thing but then it's not really that much of "another thing": Loving God shows in the way you treat people (and things such as prayer, praising God... ).

Well, what else would you be most interested in knowing about?

have a good day!

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
You want the simple of it?

Jesus was god's son who god sacrificed so that humans can go to heaven. Huamns couldn't go to heaven because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and defying god arbitrary rules. So God decided that they and their decendants should live horrible lives from then on. Now there is a number of giant holes in this story which makes it self contradicting but I won't get into that (almost all religions have them).

Jesus said "Love others as you love yourself." Thats basically the only lesson one needs to be a real christian.

Unfortunatly there as plenty of power hungry assholes that ignore or distort this messege to bring themselves power and money (again just as there is in every religion). They like the bible because it contradicts itself all over the plce and if it doesn't mention something then they make up what ever they want. These people call themselves Christian but are in fact nothing more than oppurtunists.

I dont mean to contradict you but a lot of what you said there is wrong.
Adam and Eve went to heaven, there was a way to go to heaven before Jesus died on the cross and the only thing you need to know to be born again is that Jesus died for our sins.
Although love one another like you love yourself is a good lesson it isnt the only thing christains should know and absolutely is not the one thing that defines what a christain is.

Before Jesus came to earth sin was out of control. In order to go to heaven you had to be free of sin and the only way to free yourself from sin was to sacrifice something that was pure to you. This doesnt mean you had to sacrifice a sheep or a goat or whatever. This means that whatever you did in your life that turned out to be pure of heart. Say you did a lot of hard work to grow crops to feed your family and not gain anything else out of it other then to make your family happy. sacrificing some of the crops to God would free you of your sins because the work you put into the crops was pure. Pure meaning, it had no faults, it was sin free.
This however seemed to be to much work for man to do time and again. Every time you wanted to free yourself of sin you had to sacrifice something.
Sadly being free of sin is the only way to be in Gods presence.
So to make it easier on man and to show us how much God loved us he sent the only sacrifice that could be accepted for all of mans sins, he sent his own son, Jesus.
That is to say Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for our sins.

Oh yah, what is declared as crucial by many Christians is to have a "relationship" with God.
That it's not simply about doing good works of love. The belief is that while living in a relationship with God, you are influenced by God and good works are an effect of that.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Adam and Eve went to heaven, there was a way to go to heaven before Jesus died on the cross and the only thing you need to know to be born again is that Jesus died for our sins.

How do you know Adam and Eve went to heaven?


Before Jesus came to earth sin was out of control. In order to go to heaven you had to be free of sin and the only way to free yourself from sin was to sacrifice something that was pure to you. This doesnt mean you had to sacrifice a sheep or a goat or whatever. This means that whatever you did in your life that turned out to be pure of heart. Say you did a lot of hard work to grow crops to feed your family and not gain anything else out of it other then to make your family happy. sacrificing some of the crops to God would free you of your sins because the work you put into the crops was pure. Pure meaning, it had no faults, it was sin free.
This however seemed to be to much work for man to do time and again. Every time you wanted to free yourself of sin you had to sacrifice something.
Sadly being free of sin is the only way to be in Gods presence.
So to make it easier on man and to show us how much God loved us he sent the only sacrifice that could be accepted for all of mans sins, he sent his own son, Jesus.
That is to say Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for our sins.

Hmm...interesting theory...just out of curiosity, where did you get this information?

Originally posted by secondboy
hi.
I am muslim. I want to know about christianity.I am going to
be familiar with christian teahings.
first the theology of it.please help me.
====================================

Christianity is similar to Islam in some respects.
Especially, in the areas of self interpretation to justify your end result.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Jesus died for our sins, anyone who ask him for forgiveness of thier sins will be forgiven.

The truth is Jesus did not die at all. All you have to do is read the bible to know that.

Originally posted by Taji
The truth is Jesus did not die at all. All you have to do is read the bible to know that.

True - HE lives!!

Originally posted by newdsagent3
True - HE lives!!

Only to those who are foolish enough to believe in mythology.

There is no proof on the face of this earth of the life of Jesus. No documents written by him, no drawings or paintings of him, no carpentry work of his, no momento of his life. For someone who supposedly was the greatest man who ever lived the absense of any artifacts is absolutely astounding. You would think that if he was that important at the time someone would have recognized the fact have saved some momento of his life. No one did. That fact speaks volumns.

Originally posted by Taji
Only to those who are foolish enough to believe in mythology.

There is no proof on the face of this earth of the life of Jesus. No documents written by him, no drawings or paintings of him, no carpentry work of his, no momento of his life. For someone who supposedly was the greatest man who ever lived the absense of any artifacts is absolutely astounding. You would think that if he was that important at the time someone would have recognized the fact have saved some momento of his life. No one did. That fact speaks volumns.

I think you may be stuck, Taji, in the mud of the earth.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
I think you may be stuck, Taji, in the mud of the earth.

I think you are stuck in 2000 year old mythology and stories that have no basis in fact.

Originally posted by Taji
I think you are stuck in 2000 year old mythology and stories that have no basis in fact.

You can think that, Taji. I won't convince you otherwise.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
You can think that, Taji. I won't convince you otherwise.

Those who believe in the bible have never read any of the history behind it. That is where the truth is. That is where those of faith fear to go.

well I read Biblical Archeology - does that count?

Originally posted by newdsagent3
well I read Biblical Archeology - does that count?

I am not doubting that the places existed. It is the events that are in dispute.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
How do you know Adam and Eve went to heaven?



Hmm...interesting theory...just out of curiosity, where did you get this information?

Both questions can be answered by, in the bible.

Originally posted by secondboy
I am muslim. I want to know about christianity.I am going to
be familiar with christian teahings.
first the theology of it.please help me.

Hello secondboy, nice to see a member from Iran here. :)
I realize you are a Muslim, in a densely populated Islamic country, so Christians may be hard to come by, much less a Christian Bible. In my experience, I have known many Christians, some theologians in the field, a few Jews, and have a small group of Muslim friends, so I am no stranger to the Abrahamic faiths. I probably could sit down and discuss these topics with you, but because of the barriers we have, that is difficult.

If you cannot find a Christian Bible to read, or know a Christian in your area, you have an internet connection and know some English, so I suggest finding a website on the faith. There are going to be plenty of sites out there with information, Bible readings, and commentary on the Bible itself, as well as information on the practices and beliefs of Christian churches.

Religion is an interesting topic, and it is good to see you want to learn about others outside of your own, but the answers you seek will come more from your own research than a simple discussion on this site. If you wish to keep debating, or as you research you wish to return to this website to continue discussing it, I am sure plenty of members, including myself, would be happy to oblige.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Both questions can be answered by, in the bible.

Both questions? I never asked any questions and do not have any.

As for the bible answering questions, it is not a reliable source. You are using faulty logic & cirular reasoning. You cannot question the validity of a document and then go to that exact same document to validate it.

Originally posted by Taji
Both questions? I never asked any questions and do not have any.

The quote line shows an excerpt from Vilepagan's post, ergo that "both questions" statement was not directed towards you.

You cannot question the validity of a document and then go to that exact same document to validate it.

Bingo.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Both questions can be answered by, in the bible.

I'm not so sure that's true...

Perhaps you could be kind enough to direct me to the verse in the Bible which mentions Adam going to heaven.

All I was able to find on the subject was in Genesis.


Genesis 5:5-"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

I've found no further mention of Adam's fate after he died.

Adam and Eve were God's children, his followers. They walked with him in the Garden of Eden and God played a roll in their life after the Garden. They worshiped God appropriately for the time. That should explain that Adam and Eve went to heaven.

Originally posted by Taji
Both questions? I never asked any questions and do not have any.

As for the bible answering questions, it is not a reliable source. You are using faulty logic & cirular reasoning. You cannot question the validity of a document and then go to that exact same document to validate it.

Sorry for the confusion, I wasnt replying to you. However I have made the mistake of replying to the wrong post in the past. Kind of embarrassing. That quote button is in a tricky place if you ask me. Thats no joke, I really did reply to the wrong post and afterword looked for the rewind button.

On youre views of the bible, all I can say, is God backs up his work. You just have to get to know God before he shows you.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Adam and Eve were God's children, his followers. They walked with him in the Garden of Eden and God played a roll in their life after the Garden. They worshiped God appropriately for the time. That should explain that Adam and Eve went to heaven.

So rather than Adam and Eve going to heaven because the Bible says thay did, they went there because you find the alternative to be inconceiveable. Ok. :)

Adam and Eve went to heaven when they ate the apple. It was a red delicious with a side order of Gods favorite plant....... pot. :D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
So rather than Adam and Eve going to heaven because the Bible says thay did, they went there because you find the alternative to be inconceiveable. Ok. :)

What? Why would it matter to me either way?

It matters to you because it helps with the idea of a heaven. Who better to send to heaven but the 1st humans made, heck if they can't get in how hard is it going to be for everyone that follows.

Originally posted by mad dog
It matters to you because it helps with the idea of a heaven. Who better to send to heaven but the 1st humans made, heck if they can't get in how hard is it going to be for everyone that follows.

Only someone who isn't born again would think I was that ignorant.
The fact that Adam and Eve went to heaven has nothing to do with the fact that there is a heaven.

If you want to know what Christianity is all about read my thread "How to get to heaven when you die" It will tell you what how to become a Christian and why we need to be forgiven for our sins.

The bible says that we are all sinners. A sin is a crime against God. God is King of the universe. Because of our sins, we need to be punished by going to hell. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. God doesn't want us to go there, so He sent His Son Jesus to be born in a human body and die for yours and my sins on the cross. He rose from the dead and offered His perfect blood as a sacrifice for our sins. We need to accept that sacrifice to pay for our sins. If we do not, we will have to pay for our own sins by going to hell for eternity. God wants to save you.

Pray this:

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that YOU died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, take me to heaven when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you prayed that to God and meant it with all of your heart, you are a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

If you have any other questions please read my thread "How to get to heaven when you die"

Originally posted by mad dog
It matters to you because it helps with the idea of a heaven. Who better to send to heaven but the 1st humans made, heck if they can't get in how hard is it going to be for everyone that follows.

I don't think we should make statments like "Adam & Eve went to heaven." We don't know that statement is true. We can assume lots about Adam & Eve but when Enos was born ' then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.' Enos was their grandson so we can assume Seth and Adam & Eve may have taught him about the Lord.

Newdsagent3;
If Adam and Eve taught Enos about God then wouldn't that help them get into heaven?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Only someone who isn't born again would think I was that ignorant.
The fact that Adam and Eve went to heaven has nothing to do with the fact that there is a heaven.

Inviolable I was not thinking you were ignorant, I was just pointing out that who better to send to heaven then famous people? The "fact" that Adam and Eve went to heaven has nothing to do with the "fact" that there is a heaven, WHAT?

I want the facts about this heaven then please show me the facts about A&E going there? With facts comes 100% proof.....

Mad dog, it might've won them some favor with the Lord. They were in deep doo doo, ya know!!:bombout:

Adam and Eve were God's children, his followers. They walked with him in the Garden of Eden and God played a roll in their life after the Garden. They worshiped God appropriately for the time. That should explain that Adam and Eve went to heaven. Right, right... and they committed a sin (defying gods arbitrary rules) soooo bad that God cursed all of humanity with it and forced them into exile...yeah sounds like they went to heaven...

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Right, right... and they committed a sin (defying gods arbitrary rules) soooo bad that God cursed all of humanity with it and forced them into exile...yeah sounds like they went to heaven...

Hmmm, I think my first post here said that God forgives us of our sins.
Of course someone with a cold heart wouldnt understand that.

Originally posted by mad dog
Newdsagent3;
If Adam and Eve taught Enos about God then wouldn't that help them get into heaven?



Inviolable I was not thinking you were ignorant, I was just pointing out that who better to send to heaven then famous people? The "fact" that Adam and Eve went to heaven has nothing to do with the "fact" that there is a heaven, WHAT?

I want the facts about this heaven then please show me the facts about A&E going there? With facts comes 100% proof.....

If you are not saying I am ignorant then why are you trying to cure me of it? By demanding proof. When all I did was reply to a question someone asked.

Originally posted by Inviolable
If you are not saying I am ignorant then why are you trying to cure me of it? By demanding proof. When all I did was reply to a question someone asked.

Gee folks, it's not something to ponder. We don't know if Adam & Eve went to heaven. We know Jesus did and we know Enoch did and we know Elijah did and we know Moses did. It's likely that King David did. It's likely that the apostles who followed Jesus did. It's likely that the 3 Marys did. It's likely that you'll go if you rightly discern the Word and follow it.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Mad dog, it might've won them some favor with the Lord. They were in deep doo doo, ya know!!:bombout:

Even if they were in deep doo doo this would have been Gods 1st humans. So if he loved his creation I would think he would be more forgiving to the 1st of zilllions to follow :confused:

Originally posted by Inviolable
If you are not saying I am ignorant then why are you trying to cure me of it? By demanding proof. When all I did was reply to a question someone asked.

I am not trying to cure you of anything, when someone writes that something is a FACT I would like to see the proof? Jesus Adam and Eve and all the other myths are at question not you being ignorant. This is not about Inviolable it's about actual truth, you say something is a fact but can not show the facts{PROOF}. You said it is a FACT that Adam and Eve went to heaven. So this means that heaven Adam and Eve etc... are truths, well where is the proof?

Twist away!!!!!

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Gee folks, it's not something to ponder. We don't know if Adam & Eve went to heaven. We know Jesus did and we know Enoch did and we know Elijah did and we know Moses did. It's likely that King David did. It's likely that the apostles who followed Jesus did. It's likely that the 3 Marys did. It's likely that you'll go if you rightly discern the Word and follow it.

Newdsgent3 How do we know this? How do we even know if Jesus even existed in the 1st place? There are many books written with wonderfull stories this does not make them solid proof. Jesus was a carpenter{not one of the singers otherwise we might have an album :D} so were is the most important "beings" work? If Jesus was the son of{or God} this would have made him the most important thing ever to have walked this earth so were is the remains{clothing anything}? We have Lucy dino's etc, but nothing from the most important being ever from less then 2000 years ago.

Originally posted by mad dog
Newdsgent3 How do we know this? How do we even know if Jesus even existed in the 1st place? There are many books written with wonderfull stories this does not make them solid proof. Jesus was a carpenter{not one of the singers otherwise we might have an album :D} so were is the most important "beings" work? If Jesus was the son of{or God} this would have made him the most important thing ever to have walked this earth so were is the remains{clothing anything}? We have Lucy dino's etc, but nothing from the most important being ever from less then 2000 years ago.

Mad Dog, I can't make you believe. There is no 'if' - Jesus was the ONLY begotten son of God. Look up ' Begotten'. Son of God, the phrase equates to God - that's why the Hebrews crucified Him. They hadn't read the prophesy of Isaiah obviously. Wow, if they hadn't fulfilled the prophesy, HE'd still be among us (in flesh) - but you still wouldn't believe because everyone else would be dead and couldn't give you proof that HE'd been here since just before the year 0.

We do have the New Testament - the Gospels(the first 4 books)are the story of HIM. If you can discern truth, Mad Dog, it's there.

Originally posted by mad dog
I am not trying to cure you of anything, when someone writes that something is a FACT I would like to see the proof? Jesus Adam and Eve and all the other myths are at question not you being ignorant. This is not about Inviolable it's about actual truth, you say something is a fact but can not show the facts{PROOF}. You said it is a FACT that Adam and Eve went to heaven. So this means that heaven Adam and Eve etc... are truths, well where is the proof?

Twist away!!!!!

I dont have any proof for you, I told you that on more then one occasion. It's true to me. If its not true to you please just accept that its true to me and not you and move on.
Every post I write about God, Jesus or the bible you reply to. Generally all you do is try to tell me what I know is wrong because I can't prove it to you. Time and again that is all you do, you dont listen to what I say, you dont reply properly to what I say and you dont respect anything I have to say.
Unless you can do any of the above please dont reply to anything I write.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Mad Dog, I can't make you believe. There is no 'if' - Jesus was the ONLY begotten son of God. Look up ' Begotten'. Son of God, the phrase equates to God - that's why the Hebrews crucified Him. They hadn't read the prophesy of Isaiah obviously. Wow, if they hadn't fulfilled the prophesy, HE'd still be among us (in flesh) - but you still wouldn't believe because everyone else would be dead and couldn't give you proof that HE'd been here since just before the year 0.

We do have the New Testament - the Gospels(the first 4 books)are the story of HIM. If you can discern truth, Mad Dog, it's there.

Thank you for your response, and I see nothing wrong with a belief. What gets under my skin is when someone says something is a fact but there is no proof? I would be willing to except Jesus or like I said in the past a green dragon if there could be 100% proof shown. I hear about this miracle and that miracle etc.. but one of the most important miracles, would have been to solve the problem of belief. Just imagine how much more peacefull this world would be if God{Jesus} performed just 1 miracle the absolute truth? How many wars would stop how many folks would change their greedy way of life etc...? How can this so called loving God create such confussion that it causes non-stop wars year after year? It would be like me having 2 boys, I tell 1 that he is the favorite and then I tell the other he is the favorite. Sooner or later this causes nothing but heartace and fighting.

Mad Dog, many people are skeptical, just like you - many people aren't and miracles happen everyday!

Originally posted by Inviolable
I dont have any proof for you, I told you that on more then one occasion. It's true to me. If its not true to you please just accept that its true to me and not you and move on.
Every post I write about God, Jesus or the bible you reply to. Generally all you do is try to tell me what I know is wrong because I can't prove it to you. Time and again that is all you do, you dont listen to what I say, you dont reply properly to what I say and you dont respect anything I have to say.
Unless you can do any of the above please dont reply to anything I write.

This is not a personal fight with you Inviolable, please stop trying to twist it that way. You say something is fact I ask for proof nothing more nothing less. Now if you said "MY BELIEF" I would understand, maybe you should try to reply correctly???

I understand that we all have different beliefs even those that may go to the same place of worship. What I am looking for is evidence of a God. You say yours is the true God, Willyfilly says his is the true God, Sally says hers is the true God, well which is it? Everyone has their belief but no one as of yet has shown any proof. This is a relgious forum, not the "I only believe in Christ forum" so when I ask for proof when someone says it is a fact I am curious. I have seen the shroud and other things that may or may not have belonged to Jesus but until something is solid there are NO facts only beliefs. I hope you can now understand why I reply to you, if not then I will ignore you from now on...............................MAYBE!!!!!!! ;)

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Mad Dog, many people are skeptical, just like you - many people aren't and miracles happen everyday! [/B]

Like I've said in the past I have a belief, which involves a higher power, but I will not try to pretend that I know what it is. I have read the bible{many years ago} and what I got out of it was mans words, not a Gods words but rules that were made by men for men. This doesn't mean the bible is no good it still carrys interesting{learning} stories, but I with others highly disagree this would have been Gods way of communicating with modern man. Even if this was to be Gods word how much as been changed lost stolen etc...? Kind of like picking up a novel written today, the buttler did it. 100 years from now, last few pages are missing so someone figures they know who did it so they change it, same novel new ending the driver did it. I quess there will allways be questioning until the 1 day when we{all of the human race} learn the absolute truth???????

Originally posted by mad dog
This is not a personal fight with you Inviolable, please stop trying to twist it that way. You say something is fact I ask for proof nothing more nothing less. Now if you said "MY BELIEF" I would understand, maybe you should try to reply correctly???

I understand that we all have different beliefs even those that may go to the same place of worship. What I am looking for is evidence of a God. You say yours is the true God, Willyfilly says his is the true God, Sally says hers is the true God, well which is it? Everyone has their belief but no one as of yet has shown any proof. This is a relgious forum, not the "I only believe in Christ forum" so when I ask for proof when someone says it is a fact I am curious. I have seen the shroud and other things that may or may not have belonged to Jesus but until something is solid there are NO facts only beliefs. I hope you can now understand why I reply to you, if not then I will ignore you from now on...............................MAYBE!!!!!!! ;)

Hows that arrow going through your head feel?
To bad pulling it out might make you a better person. Looks like we will never know.

Inviolavble;

Is this all you can do is twist and wine when someone has a different opinion then your hollier then thou preaching? I have tried and tried to be nice and have somewhat of a debate with you but you can only twist and turn like a fish out of water. I have learned one thing about you it is that you don't like to be questioned, atleast not about your religion. This proves to me a few things, you have no more room left{in you mind} for exploring the truth, your a preacher, or your afriad you might find out your belief isn't as strong as you felt it should be?

mad dog

Some Christians are hypersensitive about being questioned by non-believers because of the hostility they find among them. You seem to be trying to engage in honest debate but that is all too often not the case.

Since all religions, including Christianity are matters of faith the two sides approach the debate from different starting points. Non-believers demand proof and believers counter that since it is a matter of faith physical proof is not required.

There is no proof the Mohammed ascended to heaven from atop the site of the Dome of the Rock yet Moslems believe it. There is no proof that Buddah sat under a tree yet Buddhists believe it. There is no proof that Jesus died and rose again yet I alone with billions of Christiaqns believe it.

You are absolutely right. It is as if god (if there is indeed one) has set up the human race to be in constand conflict and is sitting back to watch the events and chaos unfold. However, if you read the bible, you will read about all the horror, violence and atrocities that were done by god & commanded by god. To me that is not anything I would want to align myself with. It is terrorism and evil.


Originally posted by mad dog
Thank you for your response, and I see nothing wrong with a belief. What gets under my skin is when someone says something is a fact but there is no proof? I would be willing to except Jesus or like I said in the past a green dragon if there could be 100% proof shown. I hear about this miracle and that miracle etc.. but one of the most important miracles, would have been to solve the problem of belief. Just imagine how much more peacefull this world would be if God{Jesus} performed just 1 miracle the absolute truth? How many wars would stop how many folks would change their greedy way of life etc...? How can this so called loving God create such confussion that it causes non-stop wars year after year? It would be like me having 2 boys, I tell 1 that he is the favorite and then I tell the other he is the favorite. Sooner or later this causes nothing but heartace and fighting.

Originally posted by Frogger
mad dog

Some Christians are hypersensitive about being questioned by non-believers because of the hostility they find among them. You seem to be trying to engage in honest debate but that is all too often not the case.

Thank you Frogger I know I can seem somewhat blunt but I come from the day when we didn't have to sugarcoat everything we said. I am just searching for truth, I have beliefs but that does not make them truth. I also have had many talks with different Christians and have found that some honestly believe and don't mind exploring ideas{it does not mean Jesus is false}. Then I have talked to some that as soon as I question why, they condemn me to hell and call me a heathen.

[Since all religions, including Christianity are matters of faith the two sides approach the debate from different starting points. Non-believers demand proof and believers counter that since it is a matter of faith physical proof is not required.

I agree but isn't it better to search for the truth then take fairy tails and hold them as proof? I think it would be great if there were a loving God but as of yet I see no proof. Logaically even the miracles were not miracles they were parlor tricks. A true miracle would be like the 1 I posted earlier or even stop ALL disease FEED all the people. The stories are wonderfull but when one sits done and really thinks about them they aren't all that great.

There is no proof the Mohammed ascended to heaven from atop the site of the Dome of the Rock yet Moslems believe it. There is no proof that Buddah sat under a tree yet Buddhists believe it. There is no proof that Jesus died and rose again yet I alone with billions of Christiaqns believe it.

Fair enough Frogger I also believe in ghost angles etc... without being able to prove it, but I won't say it's a fact that they exist. If it were a fact then I would have no problem proving it to the rest of the world. So I choose to search out away to find the truth about angles ghost God, instead of preaching believe or else.

Originally posted by Taji
[You are absolutely right. It is as if god (if there is indeed one) has set up the human race to be in constand conflict and is sitting back to watch the events and chaos unfold. However, if you read the bible, you will read about all the horror, violence and atrocities that were done by god & commanded by god. To me that is not anything I would want to align myself with. It is terrorism and evil.

It's funny that you wrote this, I feel the teachings of Christianity is what drove me away from it in the 1st place. In one spot it talks of a loving caring God then in another it talks of a God that will send its creation to a hell. Well either this God loves or it hates, can't do both. It is either caring or it doesn't give a crap. It's odd how even in the religion God chooses to cause confussion{Christainity}.

Originally posted by mad dog
Inviolavble;

Is this all you can do is twist and wine when someone has a different opinion then your hollier then thou preaching? I have tried and tried to be nice and have somewhat of a debate with you but you can only twist and turn like a fish out of water. I have learned one thing about you it is that you don't like to be questioned, atleast not about your religion. This proves to me a few things, you have no more room left{in you mind} for exploring the truth, your a preacher, or your afriad you might find out your belief isn't as strong as you felt it should be?

I dont mind debating at all. I have said more then a I would have liked to have said, I am not trying to talk anyone out of what they believe. I have also admitted to being wrong on more then a few occasions. If someone else has an opinion that doesnt fit mine, I don't try and force mine on them. We have had the talk about what is fact and truth before. To me at least, it started out as talking and ended up as argueing. I said if something is true to me then that makes it fact to me. You said something about spinache and mother nature being a stream and mountains. So we got no where. I have had conversations with other people on these forums and had no problems. With you our conversations dont go anywhere. They are meaningless to have. I am not trying to force what I believe on you, all I am doing is answering questions. When you tell me that what I know is not fact because you dont see it as fact then we are no longer asking and answering questions, we are trying to force what we believe on each other.
Now if you simply say, it is not fact to you then that is fine by me. But don't tell me that what I know to be true shouldnt be true to me because it isnt true to you. Don't tell me your facts out way my beliefe because I cant prove to you how faith works. If you believe I am trying to force what I believe on you then stop talking to me. Now God. Yes God, changed my life. He, yes he. Came into my life and changed it. He introduced himself to me. He allowed me to feel him and through that I saw him. God made a presence in my life. There is no doubt that there is a God to me because God show'd himself to me.
There is no, its not fact because mad dog didnt get to experience it. There is God told me he existed. How did God do this? He stopped everything I was doing and took me to where he wanted me to meet him. Is that what you wanted to hear?
If you want proof, if you want to meet God there is 2 ways to do it.
First one and my favorite is to ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and mean it with all your heart.
Second way is to die and know God was looking for you the whole time you were alive. However you missed it and now you have to burn in hell.
Once again God made a presence in my life. He proved to me he exist beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Now that that is out of the way, I'm going to go cut down a tree and use it for wood in my fireplace because God gave me the power to do so.
Some guy ask one simple question. I answered it. That should be it.

Originally posted by mad dog
Like I've said in the past I have a belief, which involves a higher power, but I will not try to pretend that I know what it is. I have read the bible{many years ago} and what I got out of it was mans words, not a Gods words but rules that were made by men for men. This doesn't mean the bible is no good it still carrys interesting{learning} stories, but I with others highly disagree this would have been Gods way of communicating with modern man. Even if this was to be Gods word how much as been changed lost stolen etc...? Kind of like picking up a novel written today, the buttler did it. 100 years from now, last few pages are missing so someone figures they know who did it so they change it, same novel new ending the driver did it. I quess there will allways be questioning until the 1 day when we{all of the human race} learn the absolute truth???????

Yes, I think so.

Wow Inviolable I really got you babbling, sorry. I don't disprove of your beliefs in the least. My problem was the way that you wrote, you called something a fact, not a fact to yourself but an overall fact. If I told you it is a fact that rocks could talk wouldn't you say horse doo doo and ask for the proof? Now if I said I have a strong belief that rocks can talk you'ld probably understand that is my belief{of course after you called me nutz:D}. I don't have a problem with anyones belief what I do have a probem with is the preacher mentality {my way is right the rest are going to hell}. Like I said before when you write I read and am curious if there is some new info out there that I have missed. So when you type something is fact{overall not just for yourself} I want to know where the proof is, understand? As I was taught by a couple of folks on here choose your words carefully some of us can't read minds :)

interesting conversation going on here.
I'll just give my 2 cents:

There's stuff that happened to me that causes me to stick to Christianity. Yah, I do believe I've experienced God in my life.

Then, I got billions and zillions of questions just like some of you. I'm lookin for the truth...

That's why I decided to go to a bible-school. One that doesn't leave out the views of secular science. I even feel like I gotta pay attention I don't accept certain theories of secular science as the more probable, or even right ones, just because I'm taught so.

My doubt that the bible in itself is not actually "God's word" manifested. I pretty much believe the bible *contains* God's word. But yah, it's been written by humans and I totally am wondering what exactly "God's word" would be now. Nevertheless, I believe God speaks through the bible.

The confusion about religion is something that MAJORLY makes me wonder as well.

I've heard pretty often, even from my agnostic religion teacher at school, is that the EXISTANCE of Jesus is not questioned so much by secular science.
Two "facts" I remember are Josephus (Jewish history writer) mentioning him. Now Josephus mentions Jesus (at least) two times. One time he talks about Jesus being the messiah & stuff like that. The authencity of this one is questioned. However, the other time he just mentiones him on the side. From what I remember this one is seen as probably authentic.
Then, there's some grave with the letters "[some name], brother of Jesus from Nazareth..... [or something else that points at the Christianity-Jesus being meant]" written on it.

Well, you should be able to look that up somewhere =). I've heard statements like "the existance of Jesus is proven" even by non-Christians but I don't wanna claim too much here...

Other things that might be interesting to look up are claims that there wasn't enough time for myths to derive
1. from Jesus' death to the belief of his resurrection
2. from Jesus' life to the writing of the gospel of Mark

Enuff for now, have a good day everybody =)

Wasn't enough time for myths to derive? What's that mean?

If there is "proof" of the life of Jesus, where is it? So far there is absolutely nothing I have ever seen. As for Josephus, he is a totally unreliable source.

"The only references to Jesus that Christians would like Josephus to of made were in Antiquities of the Jews Book 18, Chapter 4:

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

...and Book 20:

"...[Ananus] assembled the sanhedrin (highest court of justice) of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."

However, these have turned out to be an embarrassment to Christians. Apparently, neither of these lines were in the original text of Josephus, but later appear in the Greek translation. It was forged by a Christian copier of the text who was apparently frustrated over Josephus' perceived silence over Jesus. Therefore, when eradicating all fraudulent writing, no mention of Jesus by Josephus was made.




Originally posted by lil skittle
interesting conversation going on here.
I'll just give my 2 cents:

There's stuff that happened to me that causes me to stick to Christianity. Yah, I do believe I've experienced God in my life.

Then, I got billions and zillions of questions just like some of you. I'm lookin for the truth...

That's why I decided to go to a bible-school. One that doesn't leave out the views of secular science. I even feel like I gotta pay attention I don't accept certain theories of secular science as the more probable, or even right ones, just because I'm taught so.

My doubt that the bible in itself is not actually "God's word" manifested. I pretty much believe the bible *contains* God's word. But yah, it's been written by humans and I totally am wondering what exactly "God's word" would be now. Nevertheless, I believe God speaks through the bible.

The confusion about religion is something that MAJORLY makes me wonder as well.

I've heard pretty often, even from my agnostic religion teacher at school, is that the EXISTANCE of Jesus is not questioned so much by secular science.
Two "facts" I remember are Josephus (Jewish history writer) mentioning him. Now Josephus mentions Jesus (at least) two times. One time he talks about Jesus being the messiah & stuff like that. The authencity of this one is questioned. However, the other time he just mentiones him on the side. From what I remember this one is seen as probably authentic.
Then, there's some grave with the letters "[some name], brother of Jesus from Nazareth..... [or something else that points at the Christianity-Jesus being meant]" written on it.

Well, you should be able to look that up somewhere =). I've heard statements like "the existance of Jesus is proven" even by non-Christians but I don't wanna claim too much here...

Other things that might be interesting to look up are claims that there wasn't enough time for myths to derive
1. from Jesus' death to the belief of his resurrection
2. from Jesus' life to the writing of the gospel of Mark

Enuff for now, have a good day everybody =)

mhhh, I never heard about the second quote turning out as false... should look that one up!

I'm not an expert on myths. I just read & heard that actual myths take time to develop and there was not enough time for that...
I might put more stuff on that on here later if I can find some

invioble says:
Hmmm, I think my first post here said that God forgives us of our sins. Of course someone with a cold heart wouldnt understand that.

Yeah that "forgiving" Old Testament God you hear sooo much about...

Funny you say I have a cold heart for pointing out where god is a cruel SOB...ahh projections, projections, when you can't defend project...

Often times believing yourself to be better then God is a sign of a cold heart.
Or are you not saying you have more compassion then God?
Because God is so cruel and you are not.
You would never do anything to hurt anyone else. Say like convincing someone that what they believe isnt right or telling someone who use to think God was a God of love, that all he does is cruel things that involve mass destruction.
No you would never help someone who isnt as free thinking as you by showing them what free thinking people need to know, that God doesnt really exist and if he did all he wants to do is hurt you.
Because you are far to sophisticated to hurt anyone and how do you know that anyone who lost what they believed in wanted to believe in it in the first place.
Because you are the one to help people and set them strieght. It is you who has the voice of reason. Not that stupid guy who thinks all the impossible stuff in the bible is true, not the guy who thinks the cruel things God did was ok. You the one who saves people from themselves. Stand tall you know you earned it. You saved someone from God by pointing out how cruel God is yet again.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Often times believing yourself to be better then God is a sign of a cold heart.
Or are you not saying you have more compassion then God?
Because God is so cruel and you are not.

Firstly, one would have to believe in God to believe yourself "better" than God.

Secondly, God's alleged compassion is described in detail in the Christian Bible. The writings therein describe a God that shows immense compassion and one who also demonstrates excessive cruelty. Everyone can decide for themselves what that means.

Thirdly, why do you assume you know what someone's motive is for their apparent skepticism? Would you like to have your motives described in less than complimentary terms? For you to describe a non-believer as cold-hearted would be similar to me saying that in order to believe you have to be intellectually challenged, lacking in reasoning skills etc.


You would never do anything to hurt anyone else. Say like convincing someone that what they believe isnt right or telling someone who use to think God was a God of love, that all he does is cruel things that involve mass destruction.
No you would never help someone who isnt as free thinking as you by showing them what free thinking people need to know, that God doesnt really exist and if he did all he wants to do is hurt you.
Because you are far to sophisticated to hurt anyone and how do you know that anyone who lost what they believed in wanted to believe in it in the first place.
Because you are the one to help people and set them strieght. It is you who has the voice of reason. Not that stupid guy who thinks all the impossible stuff in the bible is true, not the guy who thinks the cruel things God did was ok. You the one who saves people from themselves. Stand tall you know you earned it. You saved someone from God by pointing out how cruel God is yet again.

Inviolable, this is a debate forum. That means that some people here will believe in God, and some won't. Hopefully people come here to exchange ideas and learn from the experience. It would seem that you wish to express your belief, but you don't wish to hear about anothers disbelief. This isn't the place to hear just one side of the argument. I also note that you want to "help" others by telling them of your belief but you assume that those discussing their skepticism do so because they want to "hurt" you. This rather starkly illustrates your bias in regards to these ideas.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Firstly, one would have to believe in God to believe yourself "better" than God.

Secondly, God's alleged compassion is described in detail in the Christian Bible. The writings therein describe a God that shows immense compassion and one who also demonstrates excessive cruelty. Everyone can decide for themselves what that means.

Thirdly, why do you assume you know what someone's motive is for their apparent skepticism? Would you like to have your motives described in less than complimentary terms? For you to describe a non-believer as cold-hearted would be similar to me saying that in order to believe you have to be intellectually challenged, lacking in reasoning skills etc.



Inviolable, this is a debate forum. That means that some people here will believe in God, and some won't. Hopefully people come here to exchange ideas and learn from the experience. It would seem that you wish to express your belief, but you don't wish to hear about anothers disbelief. This isn't the place to hear just one side of the argument. I also note that you want to "help" others by telling them of your belief but you assume that those discussing their skepticism do so because they want to "hurt" you. This rather starkly illustrates your bias in regards to these ideas.

That was an explanation of my projection. I was told I couldnt defend so I project. By saying there is no God so you can not be better then him then you are saying you are better then the people who worship God. In believing this you may want to save these people from their less then intellectually challenged selves. Only because you assume you know something they don't or understand more then they do.
How does this make your bias more of a priority then mine? You explain why you dont worship God. I explain why I dont listen to you. Why is that debate not as important as why God does cruel things?
So I say you have a cold heart. You say I am less of an intellect then you.
Thats no different then calling the God I worship a cruel SOB and then ask for debate. You cold hearted SOB.

Originally posted by Inviolable
That was an explanation of my projection. I was told I couldnt defend so I project.

500's theory, not mine.


By saying there is no God so you can not be better then him then you are saying you are better then the people who worship God.

Is this more projection? Not sure what you're trying to say here.


In believing this you may want to save these people from their less then intellectually challenged selves.

In believing what?


Only because you assume you know something they don't or understand more then they do.

Forgive me, but you've got it backwards. You are the one who claims to have all the answers. You claim that the answers to life, the universe, and everything, is contained in a two-thousand year-old book. Unlike you, I claim to have no special insight into these matters of religion. When asked to back up your claims, you seem to get defensive, and complain about people trying to hurt you by questioning your faith. I could make an observation about the strength of your beliefs if they're so easily shaken, but that would be pure conjecture on my part. :)


How does this make your bias more of a priority then mine?

What bias? Are you assuming I'm biased simply because I don't agree with you?


You explain why you dont worship God. I explain why I dont listen to you.

So far so good.


Why is that debate not as important as why God does cruel things?

It isn't debate when you complain that another person is trying to hurt you by disagreeing with your point of view.


So I say you have a cold heart.

That isn't debate either it's just an ad hominem.


You say I am less of an intellect then you.

See, that's the difference. I didn't say that about you, as it would be as invalid as your "cold-hearted" comment.


Thats no different then calling the God I worship a cruel SOB and then ask for debate. You cold hearted SOB.

:shakes head:

If there is no God then you are saying I am dumb enough to worship nothing. If you think I am dumb enough to worship nothing then you may want to help me see the light. You may want to explain to me exactly how dumb I am and correct my ignorance.
If you are saying I am not dumb enough to worship nothing then you are admitting that I do worship something. If you are saying I am just worshiping an idea then you are admitting once again I am dumb enough to worship no more then an idea and you are still better then me.
So we go back to me worshiping something. That something being God and if in fact I am worshiping God then it is entirely possible God gave me the answers to the universe.
As for the cruel SOB thing goes that is what 500 said to me. To call God a cruel SOB to someone who worships him is no less then calling that person a cruel SOB. After all I worship God and doing so I do everything God tells me to do. My life is an example of Gods work. So simplify it, say God is a cruel SOB and then say all he wanted to do was debate. That may work for you but it defently doesnt work for me. Which makes you bias. Possibly even more bias then I am.

Originally posted by Inviolable
If there is no God then you are saying I am dumb enough to worship nothing.

Interesting argument, but I said nothing of the kind.


If you think I am dumb enough to worship nothing then you may want to help me see the light. You may want to explain to me exactly how dumb I am and correct my ignorance.
If you are saying I am not dumb enough to worship nothing then you are admitting that I do worship something. If you are saying I am just worshiping an idea then you are admitting once again I am dumb enough to worship no more then an idea and you are still better then me.

If, and may. Wouldn't it be better to address the arguments made by the other posters, rather than debating yourself?


So we go back to me worshiping something. That something being God and if in fact I am worshiping God then it is entirely possible God gave me the answers to the universe.

Sure, it's possible. It's equally possible that God gave me the answers. Of course, I'm not making that claim.


As for the cruel SOB thing goes that is what 500 said to me.

Again, 500's theory, not mine.


To call God a cruel SOB to someone who worships him is no less then calling that person a cruel SOB.

If you're sensitive to such comments, perhaps a debate forum is too rough-and-tumble for you.


After all I worship God and doing so I do everything God tells me to do.

Your choice...just out of curiosity, does God tell you to do cruel things?


My life is an example of Gods work.

According to your beliefs, does that apply to me as well?


So simplify it, say God is a cruel SOB and then say all he wanted to do was debate.

I wasn't commenting on 500's desire/ability to debate, I was commenting on your desire for debate.


That may work for you but it defently doesnt work for me. Which makes you bias. Possibly even more bias then I am.

Let's take a quick little bias test.

I'm an atheist and I'm willing to say publicly that I might be completely wrong...there may very well be a God, and I may burn in hell for all eternity for my disbelief.

Inviolable, are you willing to make a similar admission about your beliefs, or are you quite certain that your opinion is correct?

I dont have any problems with debate. If I am suppose to handle being called a cruel SOB then why shouldnt someone else be able to handle me saying they have a cold heart?
And all though you never said anything I typed, you suggest it by saying there is no God. You may also not want to help people by pointing out your beliefes but you stopped long enough to tell me what I typed to 500 was wrong in your eyes. Then you point out what 500 wrote. So let it be between me and 500.
Further more, no I can not say I am wrong. Not when God is present in my life and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am not going to burn in hell. Sad that you can say there is a chance you will burn in hell for eternity and not care to correct it.

Bravo Inviolable. bravo!

Originally posted by Inviolable
And all though you never said anything I typed, you suggest it by saying there is no God.

So by him saying that there is no God, you go off on a tangent and connect it with statements that do not have much association with that comment. What is the purpose of that?
From that reasoning, saying that God does exist is slandering him personally, and calling him vulgar names, which of course is nowhere present in the text of that statement.

Not when God is present in my life and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am not going to burn in hell.

How did you come about this state of spiritual knowledge that you are spared 'eternal damnation'?

Evakian.
If there is no God then what am I worshipping? Is it not plain to see that by saying to someone who worships God that there is no God. That that person is in fact not as enlightened as you are.
To be completely honest that is what I am saying when I say you do not worship God. You lack all the knowledge God may bestow upon you when he is void in your life. As I said before God is present in my life. His prsence assures me that I will not burn in hell.

Thank you Newd, but I can't take the credit for what God has done.

Originally posted by Inviolable
I dont have any problems with debate.

It's hard to see that you leave room for debate when you assume insults not made, and lack any doubt as to your position.


If I am suppose to handle being called a cruel SOB then why shouldnt someone else be able to handle me saying they have a cold heart?

But no one called you cruel, or an SOB, you chose to take those comments personally.


And all though you never said anything I typed, you suggest it by saying there is no God.

If I suggested there is no God, I apologize. It's not my place to make that claim with any level of certainty. I believe there is no God however, at least not one remotely similar to the one in the Christian Bible.


You may also not want to help people by pointing out your beliefes but you stopped long enough to tell me what I typed to 500 was wrong in your eyes.

The only thing "wrong" with your post was that you seem to not be able to differentiate between what you "know" and what you "strongly believe".


Then you point out what 500 wrote. So let it be between me and 500.

Nah...that's no fun.


Further more, no I can not say I am wrong.

I wasn't asking you to say you are wrong, I was asking you to admit you might be wrong. If you can't, I'd have to say you are definately more biased than I when it comes to religion.


Not when God is present in my life and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am not going to burn in hell.

I'm glad for your certainty. If I may ask, from where does this certainty stem?


Sad that you can say there is a chance you will burn in hell for eternity and not care to correct it.

Well, like you, I think I'm not wrong, but I also think that if there is a God, the chance that the afterlife is anything like what is portrayed in the Christian Bible approaches zero. Unlike you, I'm not willing to live my life based on the unlikely probability that God revealed himself in a remote backwater of civilization to some wandering Jews 2000 years ago, and decided that the best way to communicate his message of love, and redemption, was to inspire men to write an arcane and at times nearly indecipherable, tome.

Originally posted by Inviolable
If there is no God then what am I worshipping? Is it not plain to see that by saying to someone who worships God that there is no God. That that person is in fact not as enlightened as you are.

That last sentence has a problem, because such an assertion cannot be proved unless the transmitter of said message says that is what they wish to imply. If they say they did not wish to imply it, then you must content yourself with that simple answer as the truth.

You lack all the knowledge God may bestow upon you when he is void in your life.

Go on about this knowledge that God bestows upon his worshippers that the non-believers do not have, if you would.

His prsence assures me that I will not burn in hell.

Could you elaborate about how you know of his presence? Also, having read the Bible and spoken with theologians and clergymen on Christian faith, mere presence in your life does not denote in any way, shape, or form that you are guaranteed passage into Heaven.

Thank you Newd, but I can't take the credit for what God has done.

You thought those words, you typed those words, you (hopefully and most likely) own the computer on which it was typed, as well as pay for the maintenance. It was your doing, if it was God's doing, then that cites a proposal that God speaks through you to the people on this forum. If so, what backing does such a claim have?

To worship something is to love it like you love family. You make it a part of your life.
What you are worshiping is what you long to be. There is nothing more important to you. So to insult what I worship hits home. You arent just saying, I would like to prove to you you are wrong. You are saying I hate everything you stand for and this is why. If I called your parents cruel SOB's that would be no different. It is different to you because you dont even believe God exist. But not to me, not only do I believe he exist I worship him.
Why couldnt the thing I worship be the thing I know?
If my life is based on God then I know about God.
God is in my life. There are no doubts for me that he is in my life. I tried to explain to some degree before but it didnt really go to well. If you like ham and cheese then its a fact that you like ham and cheese. You aren't just believing you like ham and cheese you really like ham and cheese.
If your mom sticks to the beliefe that you hate ham and cheese then she isnt going to make ham and cheese for you, if she loves you that is.
Even if you eat a ham and cheese sandwhich in front of her smiling the whole time and making yummy noises. She may still not believe you like ham and cheese.
What she believes doesnt make it true.
Do you stop eating ham and cheese because she believes you hate it?
I love God, why should I stop loving God because someone else thinks hes a cruel SOB?
Even if the point is that he may not exist. He is in my life and he does exist.
If its true to me then its a fact.

Can you hear yourself Inv?
"boo-hoo, they are being mean to me for not agreeing with everything I say..."

Secondly I am debating you over your unfounded claims about the bible. I never once said God idn't exist. But hey don't let that interfere with your persecution complex...

You claimed that Adam and Eve went to heaven with absolutly no proof to back it up. You were challenged on this point. Your response was that god is loving and compassionate. I pointed out that we are dealing with the Old Testament God who is vengeful and cursed humanity for eternity for Adam and Eve's perceived transgressions and also cast them out of paradise to toil and ache for the rest of their lives. The Old testament God is a cruel SOB. This can be backed up with many many stories in the bible, unlike your claim that Adam and Eve went to heaven.

I never called you a cruel SOB but you did manage to call me "cold hearted." Again with the projections. You called me a name then claimed I did such to you. You see the problem yet?

If you had this much trouble understanding my simple point and felt like you were being mercilessly attacked a persecuted you need to get out of here now. You obviously don't want to debate but to try and convert people. Sorry wrong boards...

Originally posted by Evakian
That last sentence has a problem, because such an assertion cannot be proved unless the transmitter of said message says that is what they wish to imply. If they say they did not wish to imply it, then you must content yourself with that simple answer as the truth.



Go on about this knowledge that God bestows upon his worshippers that the non-believers do not have, if you would.



Could you elaborate about how you know of his presence? Also, having read the Bible and spoken with theologians and clergymen on Christian faith, mere presence in your life does not denote in any way, shape, or form that you are guaranteed passage into Heaven.



You thought those words, you typed those words, you (hopefully and most likely) own the computer on which it was typed, as well as pay for the maintenance. It was your doing, if it was God's doing, then that cites a proposal that God speaks through you to the people on this forum. If so, what backing does such a claim have?

God is in my life, emotionally I feel him.
He makes his presence know through emotions. So far I have only felt love from him. When I say God allows you to feel him emotionally, its God you are feeling.
You can find out for yourself by asking Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and mean it. If you are not truely remorseful of your sins then nothing will happen.

I am not sure what it has to do with anything, but I am writing on a computer that God gave me. It is my computer. I own it. However God gave it to me. I guess you mean did I not work for it? or pay for monthly fees? I pay my cable bill thats about it.
I was saying God was talking through me yes.

What you are worshiping is what you long to be. There is nothing more important to you. So to insult what I worship hits home. You arent just saying, I would like to prove to you you are wrong. You are saying I hate everything you stand for and this is why. Right and I worship caring and compassionate humans. I celebrate humanity's willingness to work togather and learn from each other. I have no desire to be a god.

Even if the point is that he may not exist. He is in my life and he does exist. If its true to me then its a fact. Argueing existentialism is stupid. I say the sky is pink. Its what I believe, it is fact, nothing you can say will change my mind. Wanna debate the fact that the sky is pink?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Can you hear yourself Inv?


Secondly I am debating you over your unfounded claims about the bible. I never once said God idn't exist. But hey don't let that interfere with your persecution complex...

You claimed that Adam and Eve went to heaven with absolutly no proof to back it up. You were challenged on this point. Your response was that god is loving and compassionate. I pointed out that we are dealing with the Old Testament God who is vengeful and cursed humanity for eternity for Adam and Eve's perceived transgressions and also cast them out of paradise to toil and ache for the rest of their lives. The Old testament God is a cruel SOB. This can be backed up with many many stories in the bible, unlike your claim that Adam and Eve went to heaven.

I never called you a cruel SOB but you did manage to call me "cold hearted." Again with the projections. You called me a name then claimed I did such to you. You see the problem yet?

If you had this much trouble understanding my simple point and felt like you were being mercilessly attacked a persecuted you need to get out of here now. You obviously don't want to debate but to try and convert people. Sorry wrong boards...

What I said was you are not that cruel.
Those were things you would never do.
That and you have a cold heart. So far you haven't proved me wrong.
It was my impression that these forums were civil although I often see SOB used in debate. I would guess you enjoy seeing people upset and use terms like SOB to get someones Goat.
I couldnt tell you how it helps to prove your point but if it makes you happy dont let anything I say stop you. You keep spreading the hate. It seems to be what you do best.

Where you see God casting Adam and Eve out of Eden and condemning all of man kind I see two people who were persuaded by the devil to sin and being forced to pay the price of sin. That doesn't mean God didn't forgive them.

Where you see God casting Adam and Eve out of Eden and condemning all of man kind I see two people who were persuaded by the devil to sin and being forced to pay the price of sin. That doesn't mean God didn't forgive them. ummm...And just what do you think Baptism is for? (Far be it from me to tell someone who pretends that they have all the answers of course..) God hasn't even forgiven all of humanity for Adam and Eve's "original sin"...why would he forgive the direct culprits?

It was my impression that these forums were civil although I often see SOB used in debate. I would guess you enjoy seeing people upset and use terms like SOB to get someones Goat. I am being civil. If you can't handle me critiqueing gods cruel ways I suggest you leave. If you can tehn stop whining about it and say something of value.

That and you have a cold heart. So far you haven't proved me wrong. Again with the name calling. And your calling me uncivil?...

Originally posted by Inviolable
God is in my life, emotionally I feel him.
He makes his presence know through emotions. So far I have only felt love from him. When I say God allows you to feel him emotionally, its God you are feeling.

How do you know it is God you are feeling, and not some sort of emotional rush brought on by belief in a god?

I am not sure what it has to do with anything

It has a lot to do with what you posted. You did those things, not God. If God did those things, you would be claiming that he works through you towards us. What evidence is offered that could support such an assertion?

but I am writing on a computer that God gave me.

Did you purchase it, build it, or were you given it by another person? If so, trails lead elsewhere. If you mean God gave you life into this world full of the materials to make computers, then you'd be mistaken again. Your parents brought you here.

I was saying God was talking through me yes.

Does God speak through you because you are devout in your faith towards him? If so, does that mean everything you say becomes God talking through you?

Also, you failed to address:
Go on about this knowledge that God bestows upon his worshippers that the non-believers do not have, if you would.

Could you elaborate about how you know of his presence? Also, having read the Bible and spoken with theologians and clergymen on Christian faith, mere presence in your life does not denote in any way, shape, or form that you are guaranteed passage into Heaven.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Right and I worship caring and compassionate humans. I celebrate humanity's willingness to work togather and learn from each other. I have no desire to be a god.

Argueing existentialism is stupid. I say the sky is pink. Its what I believe, it is fact, nothing you can say will change my mind. Wanna debate the fact that the sky is pink?

If you believe the sky is pink then its pink.
Its blue to me and pink to you. Wish I could see a pink sky, oh wait I do sometimes when the sun sets.
Wish I could see the beauty of the setting sun all the time.
Guess I'll just have to settle for Gods love.

I never said you wanted to be a God.
All I really said was it was cruel to take away someones beliefes.

All I really said was it was cruel to take away someones beliefes.

How do you take away someone's beliefs? I am bewildered by this statement. I am under the impression that beliefs are not something that can be taken away forcibly.

WHen you said that "god cast Adam & Eve out of the garden of Eden it did not mean that he diid not forgive them". That may be true. But what that does mean is that god decided to punish multitudes of generations of people who never committed that particular sin at all because of the acts of another. That is completely cold hearted, vindictive & cruel.

No one knows how to commit evil acts better than god himself.




Originally posted by Inviolable
What I said was you are not that cruel.
Those were things you would never do.
That and you have a cold heart. So far you haven't proved me wrong.
It was my impression that these forums were civil although I often see SOB used in debate. I would guess you enjoy seeing people upset and use terms like SOB to get someones Goat.
I couldnt tell you how it helps to prove your point but if it makes you happy dont let anything I say stop you. You keep spreading the hate. It seems to be what you do best.

Where you see God casting Adam and Eve out of Eden and condemning all of man kind I see two people who were persuaded by the devil to sin and being forced to pay the price of sin. That doesn't mean God didn't forgive them.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
ummm...And just what do you think Baptism is for? (Far be it from me to tell someone who pretends that they have all the answers of course..) God hasn't even forgiven all of humanity for Adam and Eve's "original sin"...why would he forgive the direct culprits?

I am being civil. If you can't handle me critiqueing gods cruel ways I suggest you leave. If you can tehn stop whining about it and say something of value.

Again with the name calling. And your calling me uncivil?...

Baptism is to prove to the world that you have accepted God into your heart. It isnt to wash away your sins.
And God does forgive us for our sins if we ask him to. Now we just ask, back when Adam and Eve were alive it was different but that doesnt mean God didnt forgive them. That just means it wasnt as easy then as it is now. Just because they committed the first sin doesnt mean that they are condemned to hell either.
For as long as you referrer to God as a cruel SOB I'll continue to say you have a cruel heart. If you cant handle it find another thread.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
How do you take away someone's beliefs? I am bewildered by this statement. I am under the impression that beliefs are not something that can be taken away forcibly.

Just like the devil suggested to Even to eat of the fruit. He can suggest someone that what they believe is wrong. It isnt taken away forcibly but the person who suggested is still in the wrong. The person who lost their beliefe is still paying for what someone else did.

Just like the devil suggested to Even to eat of the fruit. He can suggest someone that what they believe is wrong. It isnt taken away forcibly but the person who suggested is still in the wrong. The person who lost their beliefe is still paying for what someone else did.

So do you mean to say that no one should ever say anything to anyone else that would "suggest that what they believe is wrong"? Then what are you doing on a discussion forum? How do you discuss anything if anyone who disagrees with you and tries to provide evidence or suggestions as to why you are wrong, is hurting you?

Say I believe in the existence of Exisliasna the Goddess of Lust who has sex with me when I am sleeping. Then, when I discuss it on a forum like this one, I expect to see other views, I expect to see suggestions that I am wrong. I even expect to see evidence that I am wrong strong enough that I cease to believe in the existence of Exisliasna. If the prospect of this scares me or offends me, then I would not have gone to a discussion forum.

Just like the devil suggested to Even to eat of the fruit. He can suggest someone that what they believe is wrong. It isnt taken away forcibly but the person who suggested is still in the wrong. The person who lost their beliefe is still paying for what someone else did.

So do you mean to say that no one should ever say anything to anyone else that would "suggest that what they believe is wrong"? Then what are you doing on a discussion forum? How do you discuss anything if anyone who disagrees with you and tries to provide evidence or suggestions as to why you are wrong, is hurting you?

Say I believe in the existence of Exisliasna the Goddess of Lust who has sex with me when I am sleeping. Then, when I discuss it on a forum like this one, I expect to see other views, I expect to see suggestions that I am wrong. I even expect to see evidence that I am wrong strong enough that I cease to believe in the existence of Exisliasna. If the prospect of this scares me or offends me, then I would not have gone to a discussion forum.

You said "Baptism is to prove to the world that you have accepted God into your heart. "
Then why do they baptizre infants who know nothing of what the process means and know nothing of god?

/B][/QUOTE]For as long as you referrer to God as a cruel SOB I'll continue to say you have a cruel heart.

Nothing and nobody has ever been as cruel as god. the bible is filled with atrocities committed by god or commanded by him.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Inviolable
[B]Baptism is to prove to the world that you have accepted God into your heart. It isnt to wash away your sins.
And God does forgive us for our sins if we ask him to. Now we just ask, back when Adam and Eve were alive it was different but that doesnt mean God didnt forgive them. That just means it wasnt as easy then as it is now. Just because they committed the first sin doesnt mean that they are condemned to hell either.
For as long as you referrer to God as a cruel SOB I'll continue to say you have a cruel heart. If you cant handle it find another thread. [

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
So do you mean to say that no one should ever say anything to anyone else that would "suggest that what they believe is wrong"? Then what are you doing on a discussion forum? How do you discuss anything if anyone who disagrees with you and tries to provide evidence or suggestions as to why you are wrong, is hurting you?

Say I believe in the existence of Exisliasna the Goddess of Lust who has sex with me when I am sleeping. Then, when I discuss it on a forum like this one, I expect to see other views, I expect to see suggestions that I am wrong. I even expect to see evidence that I am wrong strong enough that I cease to believe in the existence of Exisliasna. If the prospect of this scares me or offends me, then I would not have gone to a discussion forum.

No thats not what I am saying. To talk someone out of what they believe can be done but shouldnt be done. Believe what you want to believe I wont try and stop you.
Spending your time to just convince someone that what they believe is wrong, is a bad thing to do.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Spending your time to just convince someone that what they believe is wrong, is a bad thing to do.

So should churches end all evangelizing and missionary work?
Should teachers stop trying to convince their students that 2+2 does not equal 5?
Should we abolish all parliaments around the world because debating is wrong and pointless?

Also, you seem to have ignored my postings. Would you be so kind as to answer those questions, or address those issues, that I took the time to ask you?

Originally posted by Evakian
How do you know it is God you are feeling, and not some sort of emotional rush brought on by belief in a god?



It has a lot to do with what you posted. You did those things, not God. If God did those things, you would be claiming that he works through you towards us. What evidence is offered that could support such an assertion?



Did you purchase it, build it, or were you given it by another person? If so, trails lead elsewhere. If you mean God gave you life into this world full of the materials to make computers, then you'd be mistaken again. Your parents brought you here.



Does God speak through you because you are devout in your faith towards him? If so, does that mean everything you say becomes God talking through you?

Also, you failed to address:

If God wants to let a person know it is him, dont you think God would do that beyond a shadow of a doubt?
You want evedence of it ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and mean it. Short of that or dieing I can offer no such evidence. I can only tell you what God did for me, the rest is up to you.
The money for the computer came to me in a strange way. I received four money orderes in the mail for one thousand dollars each. I did not tell anyone I wanted a computer, because at the time I didn't. I was not in need of money but I didn't have enough money to buy a computer and I am not associated with any charities neither am I a preacher. So there was no need for anyone to send me money. As of yet no one has admitted to sending me the money. I have a few ideas but no proof so far as to where the money came from. So I give God the thanks.
I got the computer and realized that I enjoyed spending time on it. So here I am.
God does talk through me, however I am human and being of the flesh I am not always in a spiritual mood.
So everything I say is definitely not from God, I like to think advice I give about God is from God. When I am in the spirit it is easy to tell that God is talking through me.

How do you know that presence in your life doesnt guaranty you go to heaven?
Where is your proof?
I know that I asked Jesus Christ for forgiveness and meant it and God was in my life. I have said before that God gives you emotions that let you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is there. I also say again that if God gives you emotions to let you know he is there, you know they are God given emotions and not your own.
The knowledge God gives you is vast, if you need it and most do. He gives you knowledge on how to deal with every day life as well as why we as people are here on Earth.

Originally posted by Evakian
So should churches end all evangelizing and missionary work?
Should teachers stop trying to convince their students that 2+2 does not equal 5?
Should we abolish all parliaments around the world because debating is wrong and pointless?

Also, you seem to have ignored my postings. Would you be so kind as to answer those questions, or address those issues, that I took the time to ask you?

I havent ignored them I was gone. I just got back, its not easy to keep up with 4 people on an empty stomach. So I went out for some food.
A teacher does not convince, a teacher teaches. With Evangelist you can turn the channel, with churches you can chose not to go. Missionaries, well they are dieing out and I have no control over what a missionary does.
I dont see what is wrong with offering someone something to believe.
Taking away what someone may believe in is quite different. You may be taking away their whole life, their reason for living. So it is a bad thing to do. It is defently a bad thing to do if all you are doing it for is to feel better about yourself.

Originally posted by Inviolable


Even if the point is that he may not exist. He is in my life and he does exist.
If its true to me then its a fact.

It's true - HE's alive and HE's tangible !! That's a fact!!

Originally posted by Taji
WHen you said that "god cast Adam & Eve out of the garden of Eden it did not mean that he diid not forgive them". That may be true. But what that does mean is that god decided to punish multitudes of generations of people who never committed that particular sin at all because of the acts of another. That is completely cold hearted, vindictive & cruel.

No one knows how to commit evil acts better than god himself.

I guess you can say God decided to punish multitudes of people. I like to think that God had the foresight to see that all of mankind would sin and no one would be good enough for the Garden of Eden.
Adam and Eve only sinned once to get kicked out. Now a days people sin at least 3 times a day. How many times a day do you tell a lie? or any number of other sins.

Originally posted by Taji
You said "Baptism is to prove to the world that you have accepted God into your heart. "
Then why do they baptizre infants who know nothing of what the process means and know nothing of god?

/B]For as long as you referrer to God as a cruel SOB I'll continue to say you have a cruel heart.

Nothing and nobody has ever been as cruel as god. the bible is filled with atrocities committed by god or commanded by him.



Originally posted by Inviolable
[B]Baptism is to prove to the world that you have accepted God into your heart. It isnt to wash away your sins.
And God does forgive us for our sins if we ask him to. Now we just ask, back when Adam and Eve were alive it was different but that doesnt mean God didnt forgive them. That just means it wasnt as easy then as it is now. Just because they committed the first sin doesnt mean that they are condemned to hell either.
For as long as you referrer to God as a cruel SOB I'll continue to say you have a cruel heart. If you cant handle it find another thread. [

Catholics baptise infants. Thats what they believe not me. I am not catholic.
I don't have anything against catholics.
It's just not what I believe.

Originally posted by Inviolable
A teacher does not convince, a teacher teaches.

Some children can be stubborn, those that believe 2+2=5 and are that, would take some convincing, not mere teaching.

With Evangelist you can turn the channel, with churches you can chose not to go.

So? They still spend their time professing faith in a belief system that discounts other belief systems. Therefore, it goes along doing, as you say, what is wrong by telling others what they believe is wrong.

Missionaries, well they are dieing out and I have no control over what a missionary does.

Your point?

I dont see what is wrong with offering someone something to believe.

Yet you go along with the statement-
Spending your time to just convince someone that what they believe is wrong, is a bad thing to do. despite the fact that missionaries evangelizing do indeed tell others what they believe is wrong, because Christianity is right, if you listen to that missionary.

Taking away what someone may believe in is quite different. You may be taking away their whole life, their reason for living.

Well if their beliefs can be disproven in favor of other formats of belief, then by all means-they better find a new reason for living.

It is defently a bad thing to do if all you are doing it for is to feel better about yourself.

What if it is about spreading truth?

Originally posted by newdsagent3
It's true - HE's alive and HE's tangible !! That's a fact!!

Proof?

Originally posted by Inviolable
If God wants to let a person know it is him, dont you think God would do that beyond a shadow of a doubt?

No. He works in "mysterious ways" after all.

You want evedence of it ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and mean it.

Give me directions to his house, I'd love to speak with the god-incarnate in person.

Short of that or dieing I can offer no such evidence.

Then how do you know it is truth? An emotional "high" from prayer and belief systems that makes you think you are speaking with ethereal beings, or death, neither of which hold up as viable sources of proof.

I have a few ideas but no proof so far as to where the money came from. So I give God the thanks.

But you don't know He sent it, so why bother?

I got the computer and realized that I enjoyed spending time on it. So here I am.

Glad to see you here, hope you like your stay at allforums :)

So everything I say is definitely not from God, I like to think advice I give about God is from God. When I am in the spirit it is easy to tell that God is talking through me.

So it is only God talking to you when you claim it is? We cannot know what mood you are in, we rely on your words, that is unreliable at best.

How do you know that presence in your life doesnt guaranty you go to heaven? Where is your proof?

If you think Jesus told his disciples to sit around praying and feeling God's presence, and that was the key to Paradise, you'd be mistaken. Keeping away from sin, giving glory to God, helping those around you, and other ways grant you that ticket.

The knowledge God gives you is vast, if you need it and most do. He gives you knowledge on how to deal with every day life as well as why we as people are here on Earth.

Many know how to deal with everyday life without having faith in God, how do you suppose they gained this knowledge?
Also, seeing as how you know why we are here on Earth, what is our purpose?

Originally posted by Evakian
Some children can be stubborn, those that believe 2+2=5 and are that, would take some convincing, not mere teaching.



So? They still spend their time professing faith in a belief system that discounts other belief systems. Therefore, it goes along doing, as you say, what is wrong by telling others what they believe is wrong.



Your point?



Yet you go along with the statement-
despite the fact that missionaries evangelizing do indeed tell others what they believe is wrong, because Christianity is right, if you listen to that missionary.



Well if their beliefs can be disproven in favor of other formats of belief, then by all means-they better find a new reason for living.



What if it is about spreading truth?

Whos truth? Your truth? I think I have already pointed out we all have our own truths. If you believe taking that away from someone else is right, then you are wrong.
I never said listen to me and only me. If you believe in something else more power to you. I am not here preaching I am here answering questions. Considering you are asking me what I believe then I am answering thusly. I have no control over missionaries, meaning I am not a missionary how can you say I go along with what they do unless you know I am one. I am telling you what God did for me, that is all. You like what you hear or you don't.
If a child has trouble seeing that 2+2=4 then I believe they put that child in a special class. Where a special teacher teaches them 2+2=4