Originally posted by Evakian
No. He works in "mysterious ways" after all.



Give me directions to his house, I'd love to speak with the god-incarnate in person.



Then how do you know it is truth? An emotional "high" from prayer and belief systems that makes you think you are speaking with ethereal beings, or death, neither of which hold up as viable sources of proof.



But you don't know He sent it, so why bother?



Glad to see you here, hope you like your stay at allforums :)



So it is only God talking to you when you claim it is? We cannot know what mood you are in, we rely on your words, that is unreliable at best.



If you think Jesus told his disciples to sit around praying and feeling God's presence, and that was the key to Paradise, you'd be mistaken. Keeping away from sin, giving glory to God, helping those around you, and other ways grant you that ticket.



Many know how to deal with everyday life without having faith in God, how do you suppose they gained this knowledge?
Also, seeing as how you know why we are here on Earth, what is our purpose?

Did I say he works in mysterious ways?
Please dont put words in my mouth. What he does is a mystery to you because you dont believe in him the way I do. If you do then say how it is you do so we can move on from your assumptions. God gave me emotions. You are an intellegent person are you not? You do understand that I can understand the difference between what God does and what I do.
If not are you saying that your comprehension is better then mine?
Are you telling me that I am not as smart as you because I can not distinguish my emotions from that of God and you can?
Did I ever say that this is proof for you? No I said it is proof for me.
I clearly remember saying if you want proof ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and mean it. If you want to ask him in person you may want to wait as long as possible. It means death and once you die its to late.
I may not know God sent the money but you dont know he didnt. So why bother?
So far I am really enjoying my time here on all forums, there seem to be a lot of people here who really want to know what God did for me.
Yes that is correct, you have to rely on me to tell you when it is God is talking through me. I am not telling you to believe any of it. I have on more then a few occasions told people here to believe what they want to believe. Please dont let me stop you.
No to me you are wrong, there is only one way into heaven. If you believe you have to work to get in that that is fine dont let what I say tell you other wise, again I am answering your questions to what I believe and what I believe is that all you have to do is pray to Jesus asking him for forgiveness of your sins.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Whos truth? Your truth? I think I have already pointed out we all have our own truths.

Truth is not subjective in that manner, it is apparent and concrete to the collective.

If you believe taking that away from someone else is right, then you are wrong.

Taking away the idea from a child that believes 2+2=5, is not wrong. Taking away access to children from a child molester is not wrong. Taking away the rights of a factory to produce goods because they polluted the local rivers against outlined protocols, is not wrong.

If a child has trouble seeing that 2+2=4 then I believe they put that child in a special class. Where a special teacher teaches them 2+2=4

Should we have children put in classes with "special teachers" to wash away the acknowledgment of Jesus as the God-incarnate?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Did I say he works in mysterious ways?

No, that quote was not attributed to you at all. It was a poking for humorous reasons.

Please dont put words in my mouth.

I wasn't.

What he does is a mystery to you because you dont believe in him the way I do.

So it's not a mystery to you? Tell me His secrets, I wish to be enlightened!

You are an intellegent person are you not? You do understand that I can understand the difference between what God does and what I do.

I understand, but the timing of such claims is questionable. You alone "can tell", thus when you say sometimes God speaks through you and sometimes He doesn't, it can be a curious assertion.

If not are you saying that your comprehension is better then mine?

I'm not placing yourself below or above me in any way, I am here discussing beliefs with you, and since you seem willing to go on about it, I press on.

Are you telling me that I am not as smart as you because I can not distinguish my emotions from that of God and you can?

I never said such, to clarify.

Did I ever say that this is proof for you? No I said it is proof for me.

Very well, why does this "proof" satisfy you, yet leaves me in the dark?

If you want to ask him in person you may want to wait as long as possible. It means death and once you die its to late.

If you cannot speak with him in person, and you cannot encounter him until you pass, how do you know He is God? How do you know he is there when you die?

So far I am really enjoying my time here on all forums, there seem to be a lot of people here who really want to know what God did for me.

Glad to hear you enjoy it here at Allforums, I've loved being here, interesting place. But as for the people inquiring into your spirituality, expect a great deal of criticism, compliment, and questioning about your faith...we've people from all strokes of life here. To be blunt, I don't want to sound rude in any manner, but I do not wish to know what God did for you so much as I wish to arouse debate about the topic. I question things because it makes people think, it often makes me think, and one question leads to many, which can trail down a path that may change someone's mind. I've learned that comes out of debate sometimes, so here we are, discussing God and Jesus.

Yes that is correct, you have to rely on me to tell you when it is God is talking through me. I am not telling you to believe any of it. I have on more then a few occasions told people here to believe what they want to believe. Please dont let me stop you.

No to me you are wrong, there is only one way into heaven.

But that conflicts with Christ's teachings on religious practice, the only way to Heaven is through Him, but how you go through Him is not so linear, as outlined in Scripture.

If you believe you have to work to get in that that is fine dont let what I say tell you other wise, again I am answering your questions to what I believe and what I believe is that all you have to do is pray to Jesus asking him for forgiveness of your sins.

You seem a very honest individual, deep in his (her?) faith. But because of that, I shall take advantage and question your motives- why do you believe that all you have to do is pray to Jesus for forgiveness (to get access to Heaven)?
Also, this may seem a bit off-topic, but what denomination are you?

Originally posted by Evakian
Truth is not subjective in that manner, it is apparent and concrete to the collective.



Taking away the idea from a child that believes 2+2=5, is not wrong. Taking away access to children from a child molester is not wrong. Taking away the rights of a factory to produce goods because they polluted the local rivers against outlined protocols, is not wrong.



Should we have children put in classes with "special teachers" to wash away the acknowledgment of Jesus as the God-incarnate?

Are you a Borg?

Hey I totally agree with you on all that stuff. Taking all that stuff away from people is a good thing. Are you associating it with what I believe?
What does any of that have to do with what I believe? How does it prove anything other then the rights of a factory to pollute the local river is bad?

Again, are you Borg?
Should we put you in a special class to help you see that it is ok for people to worship what they want to worship?

Originally posted by Evakian
No, that quote was not attributed to you at all. It was a poking for humorous reasons.



I wasn't.



So it's not a mystery to you? Tell me His secrets, I wish to be enlightened!



I understand, but the timing of such claims is questionable. You alone "can tell", thus when you say sometimes God speaks through you and sometimes He doesn't, it can be a curious assertion.



I'm not placing yourself below or above me in any way, I am here discussing beliefs with you, and since you seem willing to go on about it, I press on.



I never said such, to clarify.



Very well, why does this "proof" satisfy you, yet leaves me in the dark?



If you cannot speak with him in person, and you cannot encounter him until you pass, how do you know He is God? How do you know he is there when you die?



Glad to hear you enjoy it here at Allforums, I've loved being here, interesting place. But as for the people inquiring into your spirituality, expect a great deal of criticism, compliment, and questioning about your faith...we've people from all strokes of life here. To be blunt, I don't want to sound rude in any manner, but I do not wish to know what God did for you so much as I wish to arouse debate about the topic. I question things because it makes people think, it often makes me think, and one question leads to many, which can trail down a path that may change someone's mind. I've learned that comes out of debate sometimes, so here we are, discussing God and Jesus.

Yes that is correct, you have to rely on me to tell you when it is God is talking through me. I am not telling you to believe any of it. I have on more then a few occasions told people here to believe what they want to believe. Please dont let me stop you.



But that conflicts with Christ's teachings on religious practice, the only way to Heaven is through Him, but how you go through Him is not so linear, as outlined in Scripture.



You seem a very honest individual, deep in his (her?) faith. But because of that, I shall take advantage and question your motives- why do you believe that all you have to do is pray to Jesus for forgiveness (to get access to Heaven)?
Also, this may seem a bit off-topic, but what denomination are you?

Its getting late, this may be my last reply for tonight.
His secrets are shown to you once he is in your life. I am not the only person that God speaks through. I didnt claim to be. He speaks through a lot more people then just me. However if you are not a follower, then you must rely on me to let you know when I believe he is talking through me.
Faith is what satisfies me and leaves you in the dark. I believe he exist and you dont. God is in my life and not yours. But like you said we are still here and pressing on. You can pray to him. That is speaking to him and you are not dead yet. You asked where his house was. I told you.
The scripture doesnt say you have to do anything other then ask Jesus Christ for frogiveness of your sins. That and the fact that I asked for forgiveness and all I did was ask for frogiveness and he gave it to me. Thats why John 3:16 is so popular. I am a born again christian. Some may say baptist but I am not as strict as most. Quite a few religions believe that you must ask God for forgiveness and do a multitude of other things. That is not what the bible says and not what I believe.

Spending your time to just convince someone that what they believe is wrong, is a bad thing to do. Yup and Chrsitians missionaries go all over the world to do it. Evac's examples were a bit extreme but that does not mean there is not a point. I always foudn it fitting when missionaries get killed. Yes its a horrible and wrong thing but what do you really expect when you go out into other peoples culture and tell them that they are wrong for what they believe and have done for ages.

However this is quite a different situation. It is you who has come to these boards which are stictly for the exchange of ideas. If you refuse to exchange then there is not point in being here.

Inviolable - I congradulate you for keeping up in responding to everyone. Many people on these boards pretend not to see what they feel they can't defend/respond to.

If you believe the sky is pink then its pink. Its blue to me and pink to you. Wish I could see a pink sky, oh wait I do sometimes when the sun sets. Wish I could see the beauty of the setting sun all the time. Guess I'll just have to settle for Gods love. Over your head or under your nose? My point is that without some common set of hard realities to agree upon we are engaging in nothing more than story telling. When I say the sky is pink, you should say no its not or only at sunset. You would do far better in challenging me on that then on whether or not AnE went to heaven.
Baptism is to prove to the world that you have accepted God into your heart. It isnt to wash away your sins. Actually its both.

The bible says all are tainted with Original Sin. For AnE's "sin" God cursed all of mankind. And regardless of how much you deny it through mere repetition instead of recitation doesn't make it true.

So if you would please show how God was not a vengeful SOB in the old testament or admit you have no clue that AnE went to heaven...

If god created human beings and is all knowing and all seeing, then he knew IN ADVANCE that man would sin.

I do not sin at all and do not believe in the concept of sin. That is a religious concept and as I am not religious and do not believe in god. It is also my expeience that those of faith are the ones that need to be watched the closest as although they claim to be righteous, they are actually the ones that live the most perverted lifestyle and the ones who can be trusted the least. All you have to do is look at the catholic church to see the numbers of pedophilic priests and all the heirarchy in the church that has made a concerted effort over the past 50 years to hide those perverts from the parishioners and the law. Those are men of god who have no idea how to live a decent and honest life and have lied to themselves and the entire world. I would never have my name aligned with such evil.


Originally posted by Inviolable
I guess you can say God decided to punish multitudes of people. I like to think that God had the foresight to see that all of mankind would sin and no one would be good enough for the Garden of Eden.
Adam and Eve only sinned once to get kicked out. Now a days people sin at least 3 times a day. How many times a day do you tell a lie? or any number of other sins.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Are you a Borg?

Yes, bow to me! *shoots laser pistol*

Hey I totally agree with you on all that stuff. Taking all that stuff away from people is a good thing. Are you associating it with what I believe?

I am not in favor of stripping people of their faith, no matter what religion. But there are cases where teaching could be done, if verifiable evidence or lack thereof regarding the truth of one, to open their mind so they can see other viewpoints and make decisions.

I've seen people profess love for Jesus Christ, on their knees crying and praying, they couldn't be more happy. It would be a near crime to strip them of the joy, but it is not so good to not have open discussion about the Bible, about the history surrounding all of it.

What does any of that have to do with what I believe?

What if Jesus never existed? What if He did exist, but never rose from the dead, or was crucified?
Would it be correct to continue teaching that as truth, when it is known to be false?

Again, are you Borg?

*shoots more lasers*

Should we put you in a special class to help you see that it is ok for people to worship what they want to worship?

No need for a class, I don't think you could pull me from the principle of freedom of religion. I am adamant in my protection of it.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Faith is what satisfies me and leaves you in the dark. I believe he exist and you dont. God is in my life and not yours.

You're telling me what I believe?

But like you said we are still here and pressing on. You can pray to him. That is speaking to him and you are not dead yet. You asked where his house was. I told you.

Since His attention cannot be harnessed outside metaphysical means, it cannot sit as fact that He is there and present in life.

The scripture doesnt say you have to do anything other then ask Jesus Christ for frogiveness of your sins. That and the fact that I asked for forgiveness and all I did was ask for frogiveness and he gave it to me.

What kind of Bible are you reading?

I am a born again christian. Some may say baptist but I am not as strict as most. Quite a few religions believe that you must ask God for forgiveness and do a multitude of other things. That is not what the bible says and not what I believe.

We could get into a debate about how that isn't what The Nazarene says, but this chat is more broad, so I'll keep it on topic. I await further responses from you tomorrow.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Yup and Chrsitians missionaries go all over the world to do it. Evac's examples were a bit extreme but that does not mean there is not a point. I always foudn it fitting when missionaries get killed. Yes its a horrible and wrong thing but what do you really expect when you go out into other peoples culture and tell them that they are wrong for what they believe and have done for ages.

However this is quite a different situation. It is you who has come to these boards which are stictly for the exchange of ideas. If you refuse to exchange then there is not point in being here.

Inviolable - I congradulate you for keeping up in responding to everyone. Many people on these boards pretend not to see what they feel they can't defend/respond to.

Over your head or under your nose? My point is that without some common set of hard realities to agree upon we are engaging in nothing more than story telling. When I say the sky is pink, you should say no its not or only at sunset. You would do far better in challenging me on that then on whether or not AnE went to heaven.
Actually its both.

The bible says all are tainted with Original Sin. For AnE's "sin" God cursed all of mankind. And regardless of how much you deny it through mere repetition instead of recitation doesn't make it true.

So if you would please show how God was not a vengeful SOB in the old testament or admit you have no clue that AnE went to heaven...

As I told Evak I am not a missionary. Yes all though I am here at this board that is strictly for debate. This thread wasnt started as such. Someone asked about christianity and considering that I am a christain I answered. As far as I know the person who started this thread has nothing to do with what has become a debate. I have yet to see them reply to anyone about a debate. It seemed to me that very shortly after a few people may have seen this as a chance to showcase what they thought of God and what they said wasnt christian.

The bible says that all are tainted by sin because we are all human and prone to sin as Adam and Eve did.
The old testiment to me shows where man can be cruel and how God corrects it. He let his followers suffer in slavery for a thousand years before he did anything. Egyptians killed babies and forced the Jews to suffer through a horrible life of slavery. So set in making the Jews suffer the Egyptians forced God to set down all kinds of plaques on them one at a time. The Egyptians could have let the slaves go at any time yet they waited until their first born were killed before they did so.
The people in Sodom killed each other over who they would have sex with. Total strangers couldnt pass through their city with out being raped.
So God destroyed the city.
You see God doing cruel things, I see God setting things strieght.
I will say this, it is not written that Adam and Eve went to heaven. It is also not written that they went to hell. It is written that they trained their childeren in the ways of God and taught them the proper way to worship him. One of their children may have commited murder. But that doesnt mean he didnt understand it was a sin and that Adam and Eve neglected him when it came to the teachings of God.
So I can say you are right and I have no proof they are not in hell now. However you have no proof that they are not in heaven now.
When I say the sky is pink when the sun sets. That is to say you can see God every now and then. You want me to say I am wrong. You want me to admit that what I believe is something I shouldn't believe in. Why? If it doesnt matter to you what I believe in then why ask for the facts? Do you want me to prove it to you? Or do you want to disprove it to me?
If you never see God in anyway then why is it so important to you?
Why even come to a place like this and debate that God exist? You know the answer. Why would you want to prove to me what you believe?
You certainly didnt come here in the hopes that I would prove to you God does exist. I could sit here and tell you everything thing you want to know. Answer all your questions beyond satisfaction and I can tell you that wouldn't be enough. You would still have doubt. There is only one way to prove to anyone God exist and that is for that person to let God into their life.
Of course then you would have to change and become something you dont like or approve of now. You would have to be a Jesus freak.

Originally posted by Evakian
You're telling me what I believe?



Since His attention cannot be harnessed outside metaphysical means, it cannot sit as fact that He is there and present in life.



What kind of Bible are you reading?



We could get into a debate about how that isn't what The Nazarene says, but this chat is more broad, so I'll keep it on topic. I await further responses from you tomorrow.

I wasnt trying to tell you what you believed, most christians dont ask the questions you have been asking.
Jesus can be reached through prayer whether it be supernatural or not.
I know this because I stold a borg laser and escaped to the 8th dimension, wait. Scratch that, having Buckaroo flash backs.
Just pray and Jesus will hear.
I read the Holy Bible, I understand that there are other books that contain the word of God or accounts of God. But for the most part they over complicate the word of God.

Originally posted by Inviolable
I wasnt trying to tell you what you believed, most christians dont ask the questions you have been asking.

To put it plainly, you appear to be assuming I am asking these questions out of curiosity or lack of knowledge on the subject, but truly I am asking these questions to open up debate, have an examination of faith, if no one steps into the conversation, then it is for you and me, but things can be addressed about the realities and fantasies of the human psyche here in the religion forum.

Jesus can be reached through prayer whether it be supernatural or not.

Just pray and Jesus will hear.

Incorrect, He can only be reached through prayer if you pray to Him and truly believe you are contacting Him. The fact that it doesn't exist on a personal level unless you have faith sheds light that it is purely based off of personally concieved notions.

I mean to say, God only exists if you want Him to.

I read the Holy Bible, I understand that there are other books that contain the word of God or accounts of God. But for the most part they overcomplicate the word of God.

The most omnipresent Force in the entire realm of the universe, both spiritual and tangible, sounds like a mighty hard task to "overcomplicate". A 2000 year old tome of thrown together texts that tell stories, some of which conflict with the workings of human mental and behavioral abilities, as well as physical workings of the Earth, seems what is the 'overcomplicated', or 'undercomplicated', part of the argument.

Why are they overcomplicated?

Originally posted by Evakian
Yes, bow to me! *shoots laser pistol*



I am not in favor of stripping people of their faith, no matter what religion. But there are cases where teaching could be done, if verifiable evidence or lack thereof regarding the truth of one, to open their mind so they can see other viewpoints and make decisions.

I've seen people profess love for Jesus Christ, on their knees crying and praying, they couldn't be more happy. It would be a near crime to strip them of the joy, but it is not so good to not have open discussion about the Bible, about the history surrounding all of it.



What if Jesus never existed? What if He did exist, but never rose from the dead, or was crucified?
Would it be correct to continue teaching that as truth, when it is known to be false?



*shoots more lasers*



No need for a class, I don't think you could pull me from the principle of freedom of religion. I am adamant in my protection of it.

Seems to me that you have gone to church before or know people who do go to church.
Like you said before, or said in not so many words. It should be the norm to take away the bad things people do to one another. Like polluting a river. However the teachings of Jesus is about love and compassion. So I dont see where it would be wrong to keep teaching it even if Jesus never existed.
To be completely honest, I myself needed proof. God got in my way and proved to me he existed. With out his proof I would more then likely not be worshipping him now.
I seen it before I became a christain. Just like you said, on their knees crying with pure joy. To simply say it shouldnt be taken away from someone is one thing. Its an act of kindness that you bestow upon your fellow man to allow them the idiocies of such acts.
I myself, when first seeing the display, I thought I was watching a bunch of retards. I thought I would lose so much if ever I found myself in that position.
When God found me there was nothing more I wanted then to be on my knees sobbing. I am not saying that what I was thinking was what you were thinking. What I am saying is that I once was Gods worst critic. Now all I want is to feel the joy.
Now he is my life. Thank God.

Originally posted by Evakian
To put it plainly, you appear to be assuming I am asking these questions out of curiosity or lack of knowledge on the subject, but truly I am asking these questions to open up debate, have an examination of faith, if no one steps into the conversation, then it is for you and me, but things can be addressed about the realities and fantasies of the human psyche here in the religion forum.



Incorrect, He can only be reached through prayer if you pray to Him and truly believe you are contacting Him. The fact that it doesn't exist on a personal level unless you have faith sheds light that it is purely based off of personally concieved notions.

I mean to say, God only exists if you want Him to.



The most omnipresent Force in the entire realm of the universe, both spiritual and tangible, sounds like a mighty hard task to "overcomplicate". A 2000 year old tome of thrown together texts that tell stories, some of which conflict with the workings of human mental and behavioral abilities, as well as physical workings of the Earth, seems what is the 'overcomplicated', or 'undercomplicated', part of the argument.

Why are they overcomplicated?

I would have to disagree, God exist whether we want him to or not. I do agree that God may not be reached if you dont truely wish to reach him. To over complicate things is simply to add more to what you have to do to be saved.

Originally posted by Evakian
To put it plainly, you appear to be assuming I am asking these questions out of curiosity or lack of knowledge on the subject, but truly I am asking these questions to open up debate, have an examination of faith, if no one steps into the conversation, then it is for you and me, but things can be addressed about the realities and fantasies of the human psyche here in the religion forum.



Incorrect, He can only be reached through prayer if you pray to Him and truly believe you are contacting Him. The fact that it doesn't exist on a personal level unless you have faith sheds light that it is purely based off of personally concieved notions.

I mean to say, God only exists if you want Him to.



The most omnipresent Force in the entire realm of the universe, both spiritual and tangible, sounds like a mighty hard task to "overcomplicate". A 2000 year old tome of thrown together texts that tell stories, some of which conflict with the workings of human mental and behavioral abilities, as well as physical workings of the Earth, seems what is the 'overcomplicated', or 'undercomplicated', part of the argument.

Why are they overcomplicated?

Well the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Perhaps you aren't one of those.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Well the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Can you give an example where prayer affected the tangible world?

Originally posted by Inviolable
Like you said before, or said in not so many words. It should be the norm to take away the bad things people do to one another. Like polluting a river. However the teachings of Jesus is about love and compassion. So I dont see where it would be wrong to keep teaching it even if Jesus never existed.

I agree to a point, the teachings and basic ideas could remain untouched, but a re-evaluation of the faith itself would be required if He failed to have existed however.

To be completely honest, I myself needed proof. God got in my way and proved to me he existed. With out his proof I would more then likely not be worshipping him now.

What sort of proof? Through prayer I shall assume. Any sort of tangible evidence that could hold up as a factor for someone else to believe in it fails to appear, thus reasserting my position that God only exists if you wish Him to.

I myself, when first seeing the display, I thought I was watching a bunch of retards. I thought I would lose so much if ever I found myself in that position.

To me it is not any form of dementia, I think it would be a fault on my part to be so judgmental.

When God found me there was nothing more I wanted then to be on my knees sobbing. I am not saying that what I was thinking was what you were thinking. What I am saying is that I once was Gods worst critic. Now all I want is to feel the joy.
Now he is my life. Thank God.

It is good you've found a constructive source of happiness in your life.

I would have to disagree, God exist whether we want him to or not. I do agree that God may not be reached if you dont truely wish to reach him.

Unavailable, or just not there? Only belief in God or a god leads one to the faith some have. No belief, and your life goes unaffected, you make of it as you wish.

God only exists if you want Him to, if you don't want Him to, He doesn't. It is a simple matter of personal disillusionment to achieve whatever end you wish with your life.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Can you give an example where prayer affected the tangible world?

Sure.

If you believe the sky is pink then its pink. Its blue to me and pink to you. Wish I could see a pink sky, oh wait I do sometimes when the sun sets. Wish I could see the beauty of the setting sun all the time. Guess I'll just have to settle for Gods love.[B]

So since I believe that you are wrong then you admit that you are wrong. Fine then why don't you stop then if no one is ever wrong, then why do you believe that I am wrong? Because you know that this silly arguement above is illogical.

If I don't believe that a fire will burn me and I stick my hand in, it will still burn me weather I believe it or not, therefore this arguement is seriously flawed.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
If I don't believe that a fire will burn me and I stick my hand in, it will still burn me weather I believe it or not, therefore this arguement is seriously flawed.

You may be right about the fire burning you in spite of your disbelief, but believing in God or not doesn't automatically bring on so sure a punishment. At least not a tangible punishment in this world.

This also points out a problem with using this as an example for most people. Eveyone on this board knows what it's like to be burned by fire, but only a few "know" what it's like to feel the presence of God in your life. To attempt to explain this feeling to someone who hasn't experienced it would be like trying to describe pain to someone who has never felt pain. There is no common frame of reference to use to communicate the idea. In short, if you've experienced this feeling of God in your life, no explanation is neccesary, and if you haven't, no amount of explanation will suffice.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
If you believe the sky is pink then its pink. Its blue to me and pink to you. Wish I could see a pink sky, oh wait I do sometimes when the sun sets. Wish I could see the beauty of the setting sun all the time. Guess I'll just have to settle for Gods love.[B]

So since I believe that you are wrong then you admit that you are wrong. Fine then why don't you stop then if no one is ever wrong, then why do you believe that I am wrong? Because you know that this silly arguement above is illogical.

If I don't believe that a fire will burn me and I stick my hand in, it will still burn me weather I believe it or not, therefore this arguement is seriously flawed.

Thats my point, I am not telling you, you are wrong. All I am doing is telling you what I believe. This thread is called. " I want to know about christianity" I am a christian. If you tell me what you believe because I say " I want to know about what you believe " then rest assured I wont tell you whatever it is you believe is wrong. More then likely I will say, wow thats interesting, thank you. I wont say. thats a load of crap. Tell me you are wrong now because that can not possibley be true.

Frequently what people believe is a load of crap and totally wrong simply because they have never investigated the roots of their beliefs and not even thought of the alternatives. Only fools and children blindly accept everything. Religions was created as a control device for the peasants long befor christanity and it has works with great success, simply because it has not been questioned. It still works with people like you.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Thats my point, I am not telling you, you are wrong. All I am doing is telling you what I believe. This thread is called. " I want to know about christianity" I am a christian. If you tell me what you believe because I say " I want to know about what you believe " then rest assured I wont tell you whatever it is you believe is wrong. More then likely I will say, wow thats interesting, thank you. I wont say. thats a load of crap. Tell me you are wrong now because that can not possibley be true.

Originally posted by Evakian
I agree to a point, the teachings and basic ideas could remain untouched, but a re-evaluation of the faith itself would be required if He failed to have existed however.



What sort of proof? Through prayer I shall assume. Any sort of tangible evidence that could hold up as a factor for someone else to believe in it fails to appear, thus reasserting my position that God only exists if you wish Him to.



To me it is not any form of dementia, I think it would be a fault on my part to be so judgmental.



It is good you've found a constructive source of happiness in your life.



Unavailable, or just not there? Only belief in God or a god leads one to the faith some have. No belief, and your life goes unaffected, you make of it as you wish.

God only exists if you want Him to, if you don't want Him to, He doesn't. It is a simple matter of personal disillusionment to achieve whatever end you wish with your life.

Thats true the religion would have to be restructured. That holds no bearing on what it is now however.
I seen where you wrote about your possible religion. Is it the same as mine? Are your ideas tward God different?
The proof God gave me was showing up. Basically he stopped me in my tracks and said, hello I'm God.
Does that mean I was looking for him?
I was missing something in my life. I desperately wanted to fill that empty space. I am not saying I didnt have all the things everyone else had. I am saying I felt as if my life wasnt complete. Doesn't mean I was looking for God but it doesnt mean I wasnt either.
Was God the first thing to come along? No not to me. God let me experience all different kinds of revenue. Looking for the thing that would fill the emptyness. Bits and pieces here and there would fill up gaps like a shovel full of dirt being tossed in a ravine. It wasnt until God came along that it felt like a dozer had completely filled the ravine beyond capacity.
So God is there all the time. If you want to fill your life with something else and you think it will make you complete. Then stick with it. That doesn't mean that God isnt still there waiting for you to completely fill any emptyness that may remain.

Originally posted by Taji
Frequently what people believe is a load of crap and totally wrong simply because they have never investigated the roots of their beliefs and not even thought of the alternatives. Only fools and children blindly accept everything. Religions was created as a control device for the peasants long befor christanity and it has works with great success, simply because it has not been questioned. It still works with people like you.

My life is about God and is not blind faith. I based my life on it. There is nothing else I know more about.

Who is controlling me now?
Gorge Bush happy I am a christian because that allows him control over my every day life? Is there a secret faction someone didnt bother to tell me about? An underworld that uses christians for world conquest maybe?
My home and my money go where I feel it best to go. I make no donations to the church if thats what you mean. I donate no time to the church either. If I believe it is something God wants me to do then I do it. My money and time go where I feel it best serves God. If that is in fact what you are talking about. If not then please tell me where I am wrong and allowing myself to be controlled. Or did you not research that?

Oh and for your facts thus far. The word of God and the bible have been questioned by countless people for the past 150 years. At least.

You are being controlled by the "belief" that there is a god and where ever that notion originated from. YOu said you do what you "think" god wants you to do. WHere do you "get" those ideas from.l that is what I mean by control.

As for the bible having been questioned for the past 150 years. The bible has not only been questioned for at least that long. It has also been proven to be full of lies, fables, folklore & mythology as well as plagerism & the gross exaggeragion of many events.


Originally posted by Inviolable
My life is about God and is not blind faith. I based my life on it. There is nothing else I know more about.

Who is controlling me now?
Gorge Bush happy I am a christian because that allows him control over my every day life? Is there a secret faction someone didnt bother to tell me about? An underworld that uses christians for world conquest maybe?
My home and my money go where I feel it best to go. I make no donations to the church if thats what you mean. I donate no time to the church either. If I believe it is something God wants me to do then I do it. My money and time go where I feel it best serves God. If that is in fact what you are talking about. If not then please tell me where I am wrong and allowing myself to be controlled. Or did you not research that?

Oh and for your facts thus far. The word of God and the bible have been questioned by countless people for the past 150 years. At least.

Originally posted by Inviolable
Thats true the religion would have to be restructured.

Then perhaps it should commence.

The proof God gave me was showing up. Basically he stopped me in my tracks and said, hello I'm God.
Does that mean I was looking for him?

Through the subconscience it is a possibility, or you actually were.

I was missing something in my life. I desperately wanted to fill that empty space.

And it seems apparent that desperation was quelled with turning to God.

Doesn't mean I was looking for God but it doesnt mean I wasnt either.

So you weren't looking for Him, but you were? That, coupled with the desperation for fulfillment, as well as the culture you've been raised in arguably brought out your turning.

Was God the first thing to come along? No not to me. God let me experience all different kinds of revenue. Looking for the thing that would fill the emptyness. Bits and pieces here and there would fill up gaps like a shovel full of dirt being tossed in a ravine. It wasnt until God came along that it felt like a dozer had completely filled the ravine beyond capacity.

Do you think people who disbelieve in God, or believe in other deities, have unfulfilled lives?

So God is there all the time. If you want to fill your life with something else and you think it will make you complete. Then stick with it. That doesn't mean that God isnt still there waiting for you to completely fill any emptyness that may remain.

How is it that you go through life without God, long for fulfillment, turn to Him, but have few questions?

It is rather suspicious that you desire something more out of life, be raised in the American enviroment, then turn to an idea that relies solely on faith. You say it is God filling that void, or is it your belief in God?

You believe you are praying to divine, omnipotent force, which in turn convinces you of the workings you claim to have achieved. Sometimes it cannot be answered, such as begging for physical gifts (say, get out of debt, buy a home), but when asked wholeheartedly for some inverted cause (i.e. "life fulfillment"), it is answered. How can you be certain that it is God doing this to change your mindset, change your body, control your emotions, and interact with you, and not some workings of your own mind and body through the subconscience?

Originally posted by Evakian
Then perhaps it should commence.



Through the subconscience it is a possibility, or you actually were.



And it seems apparent that desperation was quelled with turning to God.



So you weren't looking for Him, but you were? That, coupled with the desperation for fulfillment, as well as the culture you've been raised in arguably brought out your turning.



Do you think people who disbelieve in God, or believe in other deities, have unfulfilled lives?



How is it that you go through life without God, long for fulfillment, turn to Him, but have few questions?

It is rather suspicious that you desire something more out of life, be raised in the American enviroment, then turn to an idea that relies solely on faith. You say it is God filling that void, or is it your belief in God?

You believe you are praying to divine, omnipotent force, which in turn convinces you of the workings you claim to have achieved. Sometimes it cannot be answered, such as begging for physical gifts (say, get out of debt, buy a home), but when asked wholeheartedly for some inverted cause (i.e. "life fulfillment"), it is answered. How can you be certain that it is God doing this to change your mindset, change your body, control your emotions, and interact with you, and not some workings of your own mind and body through the subconscience?

OK Our conversation has come full circle. We have talked so much you are asking the same questions all over again. Unless that is what you set out to do. Then job well done.
If there are any other questions that I have not already answered at least twice, we are done here.

Originally posted by Taji
You are being controlled by the "belief" that there is a god and where ever that notion originated from. YOu said you do what you "think" god wants you to do. WHere do you "get" those ideas from.l that is what I mean by control.

As for the bible having been questioned for the past 150 years. The bible has not only been questioned for at least that long. It has also been proven to be full of lies, fables, folklore & mythology as well as plagerism & the gross exaggeragion of many events.

You are being controlled by the devil and where ever your thoughts came from. So sad you will burn in hell for thinking you are to smart to be controlled.
My master will slay you after you have died once and cast you into a lake of fire. MAUHAHAHAHA.
That about what you wanted to hear?

On Nov 22 1859 Darwin released his book Origin of Species. Sold out its first day. In Dec of that same year Lord Palmerston proposed to make Darwin a Knight. Bishop Wilberforce stopped Darwins Knighthood before he had the chance to see the Queen. Dirty old bishop, I am so happy I am not a Catholic.
Darwins book was so popular that John Murray suggested a second printing called Origin of Species 2 with a German translation. Although the book was a huge success and won Darwin a few awards it did not disprove the existence of God.
Unless you are thinking of some other proof and wondering if I am fool enough not to have looked for answeres there either.
If you had a clue you would check your own facts. Instead of coming here and assuming I dont know.

The bible says that all are tainted by sin because we are all human and prone to sin as Adam and Eve did. God intentionally created tainted beings? If God is all seeing and all knowing heknew exactly what he had created. And if he knowingly created beings that have a prediliction for evil then God cannot be purely good.

If I genetically engineer a Giant preying mantis psycho killing machine and let it loose amoung millions of potential victims am I evil? The animal might "choose" not to go on a murdering rampage..."Hey, I just created that beatiful peice of workmanship so give me some credit, but I bear no responsibility for its actions..."

The Egyptians could have let the slaves go at any time yet they waited until their first born were killed before they did so.

Right and what all this crap about free will? I am free to choose sin but if I do I will be tortured forever? Wheres the freedom in that?

The people in Sodom killed each other over who they would have sex with. Total strangers couldnt pass through their city with out being raped. So God destroyed the city. You see God doing cruel things, I see God setting things strieght. By saving the guy who offered up his daughters to be raped then engaged in incest with them?

I will say this, it is not written that Adam and Eve went to heaven. It is also not written that they went to hell. It is written that they trained their childeren in the ways of God and taught them the proper way to worship him. Again with the incest...
:D
So I can say you are right and I have no proof they are not in hell now. However you have no proof that they are not in heaven now. Thanks for finally admitting it. I don't have to prove they are not in heaven. I never pretended to know their outcome unlike someone else...
When I say the sky is pink when the sun sets. That is to say you can see God every now and then. You want me to say I am wrong....blah blah blah...psuedo victimization....Help, Help I'm being oppressed...etc etc... Still not sure, Over the head or under the nose? My point was that you need to admit that facts are not readily mutatible to ones beliefs. Motivations may be, but facts must be concrete. Otherwise we are just wasting bytes on entertainment cloaked as mutual learning.
There is only one way to prove to anyone God exist and that is for that person to let God into their life. Of course then you would have to change and become something you dont like or approve of now. You would have to be a Jesus freak. Where you said "let God into their life" I think you meant to say "blind acceptance of Christian mythology". Faith by its very definition is an 'ignorence of facts.'

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

Get that? Even if God does exist it, would be quite cruel of him to blame those who use the logic he gave us to say "there is no proof."

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
God intentionally created tainted beings? If God is all seeing and all knowing heknew exactly what he had created. And if he knowingly created beings that have a prediliction for evil then God cannot be purely good.

I think thats a pretty extreme way to look at it. God didnt actually create tainted beings... they were made perfect, and then they succombed(probably butchered the spelling) to sin. They had the option to be perfect but the temptation was too much.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

If I genetically engineer a Giant preying mantis psycho killing machine and let it loose amoung millions of potential victims am I evil? The animal might "choose" not to go on a murdering rampage..."Hey, I just created that beatiful peice of workmanship so give me some credit, but I bear no responsibility for its actions..."

Who said God doesn't "bear responsibility"?... the thing is, God gave us the CHOICE of either being a "beautiful piece of workmanship" or a "psycho killing machine".. its up to you if you want to sin or not mostly, and sometimes its pretty much inevitable.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Right and what all this crap about free will? I am free to choose sin but if I do I will be tortured forever? Wheres the freedom in that?

You had the right to choose... you arent a programmed robot who always does the right thing. You can go down the street and kill people if you want... thats how God supposedly determines if you are worthy of heaven.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Where you said "let God into their life" I think you meant to say "blind acceptance of Christian mythology". Faith by its very definition is an 'ignorence of facts.'

You can say that all you want.. but with a payoff like heaven why WOULDNT you want to do what you had to in order to go there?

and some facts back up the bible... although its a stretch in some cases.


Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

Get that? Even if God does exist it, would be quite cruel of him to blame those who use the logic he gave us to say "there is no proof."

unfortunately, you dont make the rules.. he does.

He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Look up believe.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Look up believe.

:D having some dude poor water over my head will save me :D :D.

Lets be real, preacher Bob pooring water and chanting boogy boogy boogy is not going to save anyone.

Originally posted by mad dog
:D having some dude poor water over my head will save me :D :D.

Lets be real, preacher Bob pooring water and chanting boogy boogy boogy is not going to save anyone.

Pouring water over your head is not what is meant by baptism.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Pouring water over your head is not what is meant by baptism.

Can you tell me how one man can save another example; preacher babtizing any person? This babtizing garbage is just that garbage, if God loves us then he can do the saving. Another man does not know anymore about God/s then another. I've babtized myself 1000 of times every time I swam in a lake river pond ;)

Sorry newdsagent3 but I can not see how a person dunking my head or splashing water over me would save my soul. This is just another scare tactic used to get followers; "get babtized or you'll rot in hell!!!" HORSE HOCKEY.

Since you're a non-believer you can expect nothing else.

Originally posted by secondboy
hi.
I am muslim. I want to know about christianity.I am going to
be familiar with christian teahings.
first the theology of it.please help me.

this probably isn't the place to ask about Christianity, it would be like going to al queada and asking them to tell you about Judaism, thats about how most of the memebers of this forum feel about christians, pure hatred, animosity and contempt. They stop short of wanting to blow them up but it wont be long. Perhaps go toa church and talk to a pastor after the service.

They stop short of wanting to blow them up but it wont be long.

Yeah, me and Evak are taking up the cause to blow up churches. Donate more than fifty bucks and we'll send you a commemorative mug! It'll have the name, location, and pastor's name and face on it. If we get enough money, we'll shoot for a Catholic school!

*sips commemorative mug and cackles*

Take up the offer folks, nothing like a cup of Reverend Joe to start the day...

Originally posted by Travh20
this probably isn't the place to ask about Christianity

Why not? There are Christians and learned atheists on theology here. Plenty of interesting viewpoints.

it would be like going to al queada and asking them to tell you about Judaism

Find some threads titled "Kill all the Christian infidel pigs in the name of Science!!!" and you might be able to draw up a parallel.

thats about how most of the memebers of this forum feel about christians, pure hatred, animosity and contempt.

I hold none of the characteristics you list, nor do I see them often out of many members. This is a pretty big stretch.

They stop short of wanting to blow them up but it wont be long.

*visualizes FT and Echo2 sneaking around in commando outfits with guns in a church parking lot*

Perhaps go toa church and talk to a pastor after the service.

He is from Iran, let's flip it-do you know where the nearest mosque is by you?

This is as perfect place to talk about religion, Christianity included. If Secondboy has legitimate questions I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

I am a committed Christian who knows a bit about the religion, having studied it formally for four years. While my views on Christianity are my own and may not be in agreement with those of others who post here they are not in any way off the wall and are illustrative of mainstream Christianity.

Originally posted by Frogger

I am a committed Christian who knows a bit about the religion, having studied it formally for four years.

Just the fellow I'm looking for.....I have a few questions about proper Christian behavior that you should be able to answer.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors bitch to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Being a committed Christian who knows about religion, having studied it formally for four years, I am confident you can answer these queries. Thank you.

Freethinker - you are not a new being - the law never saved anyone - it was written to show us that we needed more than laws to make us pleasing to God. Your mockery is astounding and no one mocks God and gets away with it.

I'm not to sure about your questions Freethinker, let me ask you one.
Are all atheist stupid enough to assume that all christians have no evidence of their own, for their faith, or is that just you?

Whats that line Forest Gump has?
Stupid is as stupid does.

I'm not to sure about your questions Freethinker

I am a little curious about what you mean by "not sure". "Not sure" can probably mean many different things, such as "not sure what the questions are asking" (which seems unlikely, seeing that the questions are pretty specific), "not sure why I should answer the questions", "not sure about how to answer these questions"...etc. Of course, no one is obligated to answer any questions if they are not willing to, but if you would answer this little question of mine here that'd be great.

Of course like you said, no one is obligated to answer any questions if they are not willing to.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Just the fellow I'm looking for.....I have a few questions about proper Christian behavior that you should be able to answer.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors bitch to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Being a committed Christian who knows about religion, having studied it formally for four years, I am confident you can answer these queries. Thank you.





Those questions are easy to answer. They do not apply to Christians. All the examples you gave are from the Old Testament, and not only from the Old Testament but from the Pentateuch, that part of the Old Testament the Jews refer to as Torah.

If you read the New Testament you will see that Jesus in his role as The Christ superceded the laws of the Old Testament. There is a reason the first 39 books are called the Old Testament and the last 27 are called the New Testament. The coming of The Messiah meant that God was making a new testament with man, a new relationship between God and man if you will.

Dear Freethinker
You asked
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors bitch to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Leviticus 1:9 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD. NIV

First I think you are mistaken, it is the priest not you who is to make the offering, your part is to take it to the priest. (unless you are a priest then you need a special permit.)

Second Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

Christ Jesus is the one and only perfect offering. (sacrifice) He offered Himself once and for all ending the need to offer animal sacrifices ever again.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?
Exodus 21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. [8] If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. [9] If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. [10] If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. [11] If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. NIV

First I think you are mistaken and have taken this passage out of context, this passage is talking about a man buying a wife, further more he would not be required to continue her education and thus would not have to pay for it.

Second Romans13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. [2] He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. [3] Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. [4] For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. [5] Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. [6] But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. [12] He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. [13] The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. [14] How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! [15] For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. NIV

When Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead three days later He brought and end to the covenant of the law and started a covenant of grace, this covenant of grace is what we live under today, therefore the covenant of the law no longer applies.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

Please see answer to question b)

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?

Please see answer to question b)

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

Please see answer to question b)

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Leviticus 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales--whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water--you are to detest. [11] And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. [12] Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you. Acts 11:5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. [6] I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. [7] Then I heard a voice telling me, `Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.' [8] "I replied, `Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' [9] "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, `Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' [10] This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again. NIV

This was a health concern and in old testament times was made detestable to keep the people healthy but in new testament times the health concern is no longer valid so God made it clean.

Leviticus 20:13 " `If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [25] They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. [26] Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. [27] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. [28] Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. [29] They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [31] they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. NIV

This is detestable in both the old and new testament times and the punishment for both old and new testament times is death. The difference is that in new testament times God Himself will hand out the punishment.


g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?
Leviticus 21:16 The LORD said to Moses, [17] "Say to Aaron: `For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. [18] No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; [19] no man with a crippled foot or hand, [20] or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. [21] No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. [22] He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; [23] yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy. ' " NIV

This is only for the descendants of Aaron, everyone else whether defective or not may not come near the altar during old testament times.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, [20] by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, NIV

In new testament times we that believe in Jesus are now able to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus.


h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

Please see answer to question b)

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Please see answer to question b)

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Please see answer to question b)

I would like to leave you with these last few scriptures. Please heed them and take them to heart.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [20] Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. NIV

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. [11] As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." [12] For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, [13] for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." NIV

According to many scriptues the Old Testament MUST be followed.


the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)



Originally posted by John14-6
Dear Freethinker
You asked
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors bitch to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Leviticus 1:9 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD. NIV

First I think you are mistaken, it is the priest not you who is to make the offering, your part is to take it to the priest. (unless you are a priest then you need a special permit.)

Second Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

Christ Jesus is the one and only perfect offering. (sacrifice) He offered Himself once and for all ending the need to offer animal sacrifices ever again.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?
Exodus 21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. [8] If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. [9] If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. [10] If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. [11] If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. NIV

First I think you are mistaken and have taken this passage out of context, this passage is talking about a man buying a wife, further more he would not be required to continue her education and thus would not have to pay for it.

Second Romans13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. [2] He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. [3] Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. [4] For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. [5] Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. [6] But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. [12] He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. [13] The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. [14] How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! [15] For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. NIV

When Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead three days later He brought and end to the covenant of the law and started a covenant of grace, this covenant of grace is what we live under today, therefore the covenant of the law no longer applies.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

Please see answer to question b)

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?

Please see answer to question b)

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

Please see answer to question b)

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Leviticus 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales--whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water--you are to detest. [11] And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. [12] Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you. Acts 11:5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. [6] I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. [7] Then I heard a voice telling me, `Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.' [8] "I replied, `Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' [9] "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, `Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' [10] This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again. NIV

This was a health concern and in old testament times was made detestable to keep the people healthy but in new testament times the health concern is no longer valid so God made it clean.

Leviticus 20:13 " `If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [25] They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. [26] Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. [27] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. [28] Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. [29] They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [31] they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. NIV

This is detestable in both the old and new testament times and the punishment for both old and new testament times is death. The difference is that in new testament times God Himself will hand out the punishment.


g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?
Leviticus 21:16 The LORD said to Moses, [17] "Say to Aaron: `For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. [18] No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; [19] no man with a crippled foot or hand, [20] or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. [21] No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. [22] He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; [23] yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy. ' " NIV

This is only for the descendants of Aaron, everyone else whether defective or not may not come near the altar during old testament times.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, [20] by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, NIV

In new testament times we that believe in Jesus are now able to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus.


h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

Please see answer to question b)

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Please see answer to question b)

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Please see answer to question b)

I would like to leave you with these last few scriptures. Please heed them and take them to heart.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [20] Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. NIV

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. [11] As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." [12] For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, [13] for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." NIV [C[the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

I think you are wrong. According to the scripture the old testament is NOT to be ignored.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)



Originally posted by Frogger
Those questions are easy to answer. They do not apply to Christians. All the examples you gave are from the Old Testament, and not only from the Old Testament but from the Pentateuch, that part of the Old Testament the Jews refer to as Torah.

If you read the New Testament you will see that Jesus in his role as The Christ superceded the laws of the Old Testament. There is a reason the first 39 books are called the Old Testament and the last 27 are called the New Testament. The coming of The Messiah meant that God was making a new testament with man, a new relationship between God and man if you will.

Originally posted by Taji
I think you are wrong. According to the scripture the old testament is NOT to be ignored.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
===========================================

Of the commentary explanations I have checked, it seems that Jesus was speaking of the 10 Commandments of god.
Not the Old Testament.

Dear Taji
You said:
According to many scriptures the Old Testament MUST be followed.

the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

John 10:22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, [23] and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. [24] The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." [25] Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, [26] but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. [27] My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and the Father are one."[31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"[33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."[34] Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? [35] If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- [36] what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'? [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." [39] Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. [40] Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed [41] and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true." [42] And in that place many believed in Jesus. NIV

I think you are mistaken and have taken this passage out of context, Jesus is talking to the religious leaders and telling them (the religious leaders) that they (the religious leaders) said they (the religious leaders) were gods and that the word of God came to them (the religious leaders) and that the word of God (Scripture) cannot be broken according to them. (the religious leaders) "[34] Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? [35] If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- NIV

They (the religious leaders) said it way back in the Psalms Psalm 82 A psalm of Asaph. Psalm 82:1 God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the "gods": [2] "How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? Selah [3] Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. [4] Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.[5] "They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. [6] "I said, `You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' [7] But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." [8] Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. NIV

Jesus was asking them (the religious leaders) that if according to them (the religious leaders) they (the religious leaders) mere men were gods why was it so hard for them (the religious leaders) to believe that Jesus a mere man was the Son of God and therefore supersedes them. (the religious leaders) Jesus ending the covenant of the law and started a covenant of grace.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Luke 16:10 "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. [11] So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? [12] And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own? [13] "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." [14] The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. [15] He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. [16] "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. [17] It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. NIV

I think you are mistaken and have taken this passage out of context, Jesus is telling the religious leaders That God trusted them (the religious leaders) with very little (The Law) and they (the religious leaders) couldn’t be trusted with it, (The Law) so God was not going to trusted them (the religious leaders) with much. (The Good News) Instead God will judge them (the religious leaders) with there (the religious leaders) own law and that God was not going to have any mercy on them. (the religious leaders) [17] It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. NIV Jesus is ending the covenant of the law and started a covenant of grace.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [18] I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. [19] Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. NIV

I think you are mistaken and have taken this passage out of context, This is the fulfillment of the Law. Jesus is telling the people that if they (the people) follow The Law that they (the people) will get the same punishment that the religious leaders are going to get. Jesus is drawing the people toward Him and ending the covenant of the law and started a covenant of grace.

Matthew 22:40 "On these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets." 22:37 Jesus said unto him. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind, 38 "This is the first and great commandment. And the 2nd is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." This is the law as Jesus gave it.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the Kingdom of God is preached and every man presses into it."