The thing that allows ostensibly sane individuals to hold religious beliefs is.........

Superstition

I.

What is Superstition?

To believe in spite of evidence or without evidence.

To account for one mystery by another.

To believe that the world is governed by chance or caprice.

To disregard the true relation between cause and effect.

To put thought, intention and design back of nature.

To believe that mind created and controls matter.

To believe in force apart from substance, or in substance apart from force.

To believe in miracles, spells and charms, in dreams and prophecies.

To believe in the supernatural.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.

In nearly every brain is found some cloud of superstition.

A woman drops a cloth with which she is washing dishes, and she exclaims: "That means company."

Most people will admit that there is no possible connection between dropping the cloth and the coming of visitors. The falling cloth could not have put the visit desire in the minds of people not present, and how could the cloth produce the desire to visit the particular person who dropped it? There is no possible connection between the dropping of the cloth and the anticipated effects.

A man catches a glimpse of the new moon over his left shoulder, and he says: "This is bad luck."

To see the moon over the right or left shoulder, or not to see it, could not by any possibility affect the moon, neither could it change the effect or influence of the moon on any earthly thing. Certainly the left-shoulder glance could in no way affect the nature of things. All the facts in nature would remain the same as thought the glance had been over the right shoulder. We see no connection between the left-shoulder glance and any possible evil effects upon the one who saw the moon in this way.

A girl counts the leaves of a flower, and she says: "One, he comes; two, he tarries; three, he courts; four, he marries; five, he goes away."

Of course the flower did not grow, and the number of its leaves was not determined with reference to the courtship or marriage of this girl, neither could there have been any intelligence that guided her hand when she selected that particular flower. So, counting the seeds in an apple cannot in any way determine whether the future of an individual is to be happy or miserable.

Thousands of persons believe in lucky and unlucky days, numbers, signs and jewels.

Many people regard Friday as an unlucky day -- as a bad day to commence a journey, to marry, to make any investment. The only reason given is that Friday is an unlucky day.

Starting across the sea on Friday could have no possible effect upon the winds, or waves, or tides, any more than starting on any other day, and the only possible reason for thinking Friday unlucky is the assertion that it is so.

So it is thought by many that it is dangerous for thirteen people to dine together. Now, if thirteen is a dangerous number, twenty-six ought to be twice as dangerous, and fifty-two four times as terrible.

It is said that one of the thirteen will die in a year. Now, there is no possible relation between the number and the digestion of each, between the number and the individual diseases. If fourteen dine together there is greater probability, if we take into account only the number, of a death within the year, than there would be if only thirteen were at the table.

Overturning the salt is very unlucky, but spilling the vinegar makes no difference.

Why salt should be revengeful and vinegar forgiving has never been told.

If the first person who enters a theater is cross-eyed, the audience will be small and the "run" a failure.

How the peculiarity of the eyes of the first one who enters, changes the intention of a community, or how the intentions of a community cause the cross-eyed man to go early, has never been satisfactorily explained. Between this so-called cause and the so-called effect there is, so far as we can see, no possible relation.

To wear an opal is bad luck, but rubies bring health. How these stones affect the future, how they destroy causes and defeat effects, no one pretends to know.

So, there are thousands of lucky and unlucky things, warnings, omens and prophecies, but all sensible, sane and reasoning human beings know that every one is an absurd and idiotic superstition.

Let us take another step:

For many centuries it was believed that eclipses of the sun and moon were prophetic of pestilence or famine, and that comets foretold the death of kings, or the destruction of nations, the coming of war or plague. All strange appearances in the heavens -- the Northern Lights, circles about the moon, sun dogs, falling stars -- filled our intelligent ancestors with terror. They fell upon their knees -- did their best with sacrifice and prayer to avoid the threatened disaster. Their faces were ashen with fear as they closed their eyes and cried to the heavens for help. The clergy, who were as familiar with God then as the orthodox preachers are now, knew exactly the meaning of eclipses and sun dogs and Northern Lights; knew that God's patience was nearly exhausted; that he was then whetting the sword of his wrath, and that the people could save themselves only by obeying the priests, by counting their beads and doubling their subscriptions.

Earthquakes and cyclones filled the coffers of the church. In the midst of disasters the miser, with trembling hands, opened his purse. In the gloom of eclipses thieves and robbers divided their booty with God, and poor, honest, ignorant girls, remembering that they had forgotten to say a prayer, gave their little earnings to soften the heart of God.

Now we know that all these signs and wonders in the heavens have nothing to do with the fate of kings, nations or individuals; that they had no more reference to human beings than to colonies of ants, hives of bees or the eggs of insects. We now know that the signs and eclipses, the comets, and the falling stars, would have been just the same if not a human being had been upon the earth. We know now that eclipses come at certain times and that their coming can be exactly foretold.

A little while ago the belief was general that there were certain healing virtues in inanimate things, in the bones of holy men and women, in the rags that had been torn from the foul clothing of still fowler saints, in hairs from martyrs, in bits of wood and rusty nails from the true cross, in the teeth and finger nails of pious men, and in a thousand other sacred things.

The diseased were cured by kissing a box in which was kept some bone, or rag, or bit of wood, some holy hairs, provided the kiss was preceded, or followed by a gift -- a something for the church.

In some mysterious way the virtue in the bone, or rag, or piece of wood, crept or flowed from the box, took possession of the sick who had the necessary faith, and in the name of God drove out the devils who were the real disease.

This belief in the efficacy of bones or rags and holy hair was born of another belief -- the belief that all diseases were produced by evil spirits. The insane were supposed to be possessed by devils. Epilepsy and hysteria were produced by the imps of Satan. In short, every human affliction was the work of the malicious emissaries of the god of hell. This belief was almost universal, and even in our time the sacred bones are believed in by millions of people.

But to-day no intelligent man believes in the existence of devils -- no intelligent man believes that evil spirits cause disease -- consequently, no intelligent person believes that holy bones or rags, sacred hairs or pieces of wood, can drive disease out, or in any way bring back to the pallid cheek the rose of health.

Intelligent people now know that the bone of a saint has in it no greater virtue than the bone of any animal. That a rag from a wandering beggar is just as good as one from a saint, and that the hair of a horse will cure disease just as quickly and surely as the hair of a martyr. We now know that all the sacred relics are religious rubbish; that those who use them are for the most part dishonest, and that those who rely on them are almost idiotic.

This belief in amulets and charms, in ghosts and devils, is superstition, pure and simple.

Our ancestors did not regard these relics as medicine, having a curative power, but the idea was that evil spirits stood in dread of holy things -- that they fled from the bone of a saint, that they feared a piece of the true cross, and that when holy water was sprinkled on a man they immediately left the premises. So, these devils hated and dreaded the sound of holy bells, the light of sacred tapers, and, above all, the ever-blessed cross.

In those days the priests were fishers for money, and they used these relics for bait.

(part two later)

II.

Let us take another step:

This belief in the Devil and evil spirits laid the foundation for another belief: Witchcraft.

It was believed that the devil had certain things to give in exchange for a soul. The old man, bowed and broken, could get back his youth -- the rounded form, the brown hair, the leaping heart of life's morning -- if he would sign and seal away his soul. So, it was thought that the malicious could by charm and spell obtain revenge, that the poor could be enriched, and that the ambitious could rise to place and power. All the good things of this life were at the disposal of the Devil. For those who resisted the temptations of the Evil One, rewards were waiting in another world, but the Devil rewarded here in this life. No one has imagination enough to paint the agonies that were endured by reason of this belief in witchcraft. Think of the families destroyed, of the fathers and mothers cast in prison, tortured and burned, of the firesides darkened, of the children murdered, of the old, the poor and helpless that were stretched on racks mangled and flayed!

Think of the days when superstition and fear were in every house, in every mind, when accusation was conviction, when assertion of innocence was regarded as a confession of guilt, and when Christendom was insane!

Now we know that all of these horrors were the result of superstition. Now we know that ignorance was the mother of all the agonies endured. Now we know that witches never lived, that human beings never bargained with any devil, and that our pious savage ancestors were mistaken.

Let us take another step:

Our fathers believed in miracles, in signs and wonders, eclipses and comets, in the virtues of bones, and in the powers attributed to evil spirits. All these belonged to the miraculous. The world was supposed to be full of magic; the spirits were sleight-of-hand performers -- necromancers. There were no natural causes behind events. A devil wished, and it happened. One who had sold his soul to Satan made a few motions, uttered some strange words, and the event was present. Natural causes were not believed in. Delusion and illusion, the monstrous and miraculous, ruled the world. The foundation was gone -- reason had abdicated. Credulity gave tongues and wings to lies, while the dumb and limping facts were left behind -- were disregarded and remained untold.

What Is a Miracle?

An act performed by a master of nature without reference to the facts in nature. This is the only honest definition of a miracle.

If a man could make a perfect circle, the diameter of which was exactly one-half the circumference, that would be a miracle in geometry. If a man could make twice four, nine, that would be a miracle in mathematics. If a man could make a stone, falling in the air, pass through a space of ten feet the first second, twenty-five feet the second second, and five feet the third second, that would be a miracle in physics. If a man could put together hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and produce pure gold, that would be a miracle in chemistry. If a minister were to prove his creed, that would be a theological miracle. If Congress by law would make fifty cents worth of silver worth a dollar, that would be a financial miracle. To make a square triangle would be a most wonderful miracle. To cause a mirror to reflect the faces of persons who stand behind it, instead of those who stand in front, would be a miracle. To make echo answer a question would be a miracle. In other words, to do anything contrary to or without regard to the facts in nature is to perform a miracle.

Now we are convinced of what is called the "uniformity of nature." We believe that all things act and are acted upon in accordance with their nature; that under like conditions the results will always be substantially the same; that like ever has and ever will produce like. We now believe that events have natural parents and that none die childless.

Miracles are not simply impossible, but they are unthinkable by any man capable of thinking.

Now an intelligent man cannot believe that a miracle ever was, or ever will be, performed.

Ignorance is the soil in which belief in miracles grows.

III.

Let us take another step:

While our ancestors filled the darkness with evil spirits, enemies of mankind, they also believed in the existence of good spirits. These good spirits sustained the same relation to God that the evil ones did to the Devil. These good spirits protected the faithful from the temptations and snares of the Evil One. They took care of those who carried amulets and charms, of those who repeated prayers and counted beads, of those who fasted and performed ceremonies. These good spirits would turn aside the sword and arrow from the breast of the faithful. They made poison harmless, they protected the credulous, and in a thousand ways defended and rescued the true believer. They drove doubts from the minds of the pious, sowed the seeds of credulity and faith, saved saints from the wiles of women, painted the glories of heaven for those who fasted and prayed, made it possible for the really good to dispense with the pleasures of sense and to hate the Devil.

These angels watched over infants who had been baptized, over persons who had made holy vows, over priests and nuns and wandering beggars who believed.

These spirits were of various kinds: Some had once been men or women. some had never lived in this world, and some had been angels from the commencement. Nobody pretended to know exactly what they were, or exactly how they looked, or in what way they went from place to place, or how they affected or controlled the minds of men.

It was believed that the king of all these evil spirits was the Devil, and that the king of all the good spirits was God. It was also believed that God was in fact the king of all, and that the Devil himself was one of the children of this God. This God and this Devil were at war, each trying to secure the souls of men. God offered the rewards of eternal joy and threatened eternal pain. The Devil baited his traps with present pleasure, with the gratification of the senses, with the ecstasies of love, and laughed at the joys of heaven and the pangs of hell. With malicious hand he sowed the seeds of doubt -- induced men to investigate, to reason, to call for evidence, to rely upon themselves; planted in their hearts the love of liberty, assisted them to break their chains, to escape from their prisons and besought them to think. In this way he corrupted the children of men.

Our fathers believed that they could by prayer, by sacrifice, by fasting, by performing certain ceremonies, gain the assistance of this God and of these good spirits. They were not quite logical. They did not believe that the Devil was the author of all evil. They thought that flood and famine, plague and cyclone, earthquake and war, were sometimes sent by God as punishment for unbelief. They fell upon their knees and with white lips, prayed the good God to stay his hand. They humbled themselves, confessed their sins, and filled the heavens with their vows and cries. With priests and prayers they tried to stay the plague. They kissed the relics, fell at shrines, besought the Virgin and the saints, but the prayers all died in the heartless air, and the plague swept on to its natural end. Our poor fathers knew nothing of any science. Back of all events they put spirits, good or bad, angels or demons, gods or devils. To them nothing had what we call a natural cause. Everything was the work of spirits. All was done by the supernatural, and everything was done by evil spirits that they could do to ruin, punish, mislead and damn the children of men. This world was a field of battle, and here the hosts of heaven and hell waged war.

IV.

Now no man in whose brain the torch of reason burns, no man who investigates, who really thinks, who is capable of weighing evidence, believes in signs, in lucky or unlucky days, in lucky or unlucky numbers. He knows that Fridays and Thursdays are alike; that thirteen is no more deadly than twelve. He knows that opals affect the wearer the same as rubies, diamonds or common glass. He knows that the matrimonial chances of a maiden are not increased or decreased by the number of leaves of a flower or seeds in an apple. He knows that a glance at the moon over the left shoulder is as healthful and lucky as one over the right. He does not care whether the first comer to a theater is cross-eyed or hump-backed, bow-legged, or as well-proportioned as Apollo. He knows that a strange cat could be denied asylum without bringing any misfortune to the family. He knows that an owl does not hoot in the full of the moon because a distinguished man is about to die. He knows that comets and eclipses would come if all the folks were dead. He is not frightened by sun dogs, or the Morning of the North when the glittering lances pierce the shield of night. He knows that all these things occur without the slightest reference to the human race. He feels certain that floods would destroy and cyclones rend and earthquakes devour; that the stars would shine; that day and night would still pursue each other around the world; that flowers would give their perfume to the air, and light would paint the seven-hued arch upon the dusky bosom of the cloud if every human being was unconscious dust.

A man of thought and sense does not believe in the existence of the Devil. He feels certain that imps, goblins, demons and evil spirits exist only in the imagination of the ignorant and frightened. He knows how these malevolent myths were made. He knows the part they have played in all religions. He knows that for many centuries a belief in these devils, these evil spirits, was substantially universal. He knows that the priest believed as firmly as the peasant. In those days the best educated and the most ignorant were equal dupes. Kings and courtiers, ladies and clowns, soldiers and artists, slaves and convicts, believed as firmly in the Devil as they did in God.

Back of this belief there is no evidence, and there never has been. This belief did not rest on any fact. It was supported by mistakes, exaggerations and lies. The mistakes were natural, the exaggerations were mostly unconscious and the lies were generally honest. Back of these mistakes, these exaggerations, these lies, was the love of the marvelous. Wonder listened with greedy ears, with wide eyes, and ignorance with open mouth.

The man of sense knows the history of this belief, and he knows, also, that for many centuries its truth was established by the Holy Bible. He knows that the Old Testament is filled with allusions to the Devil, to evil spirits, and that the New Testament is the same. He knows that Christ himself was a believer in the Devil, in evil spirits, and that his principal business was casting out devils from the bodies of men and women. He knows that Christ himself, according to the New Testament, was not only tempted by the Devil, but was carried by his Satanic Highness to the top of the temple. If the New Testament is the inspired word of God, then I admit that these devils, these imps, do actually exist and that they do take possession of human beings.

To deny the existence of these evil spirits, to deny the existence of the Devil, is to deny the truth of the New Testament. To deny the existence of these imps of darkness is to contradict the words of Jesus Christ. If these devils do not exist, if they do not cause disease, if they do not tempt and mislead their victims, then Christ was an ignorant, superstitious man, insane, an impostor, or the New Testament is not a true record of what he said and what he pretended to do. If we give up the belief in devils, we must give up the inspiration of the Old and New Testament. We must give up the divinity of Christ. To deny the existence of evil spirits is to utterly destroy the foundation of Christianity. There is no half-way ground. Compromise is impossible. If all the accounts in the New Testament of casting out devils are false, what part of the Blessed Book is true?

As a matter of fact, the success of the Devil in the Garden of Eden made the coming of Christ a necessity, laid the foundation for the atonement, crucified the Savior and gave us the Trinity.

If the Devil does not exist, the Christian creeds all crumble, and the superstructure known as "Christianity," built by the fathers, by popes, by priests and theologians -- built with mistakes and falsehoods, with miracles and wonders, with blood and flame, with lies and legends borrowed from the savage world, becomes a shapeless ruin.

If we give up the belief in devils and evil spirits, we are compelled to say that a witch never lived. No sensible human being now believes in witchcraft. We know that it was a delusion. We now know that thousands and thousands of innocent men, women and children were tortured and burned for having been found guilty of an impossible crime, and we also know, if our minds have not been deformed by faith, that all the books in which the existence of witches is taught were written by ignorant and superstitious men. We also know that the Old Testament asserted the existence of witches. According to that Holy Book, Jehovah was a believer in witchcraft, and said to his chosen people: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

This one commandment -- this simple line -- demonstrates that Jehovah was not only not God, but that he was a poor, ignorant, superstitious savage. This one line proves beyond all possible doubt that the Old Testament was written by men, by barbarians.

John Wesley was right when he said that to give up a belief in witchcraft was to give up the Bible.

Give up the Devil, and what can you do with the Book of Job? How will you account for the lying spirits that Jehovah sent to mislead Ahab?

Ministers who admit that witchcraft is a superstition will read the story of the Witch of Endor -- will read it in a solemn, reverential voice -- with a theological voice -- and will have the impudence to say that they believe it.

It would be delightful to know that angels hover in the air; that they guard the innocent, protect the good; that they bend over the cradles and give health and happy dreams to pallid babes; that they fill dungeons with the light of their presence and give hope to the imprisoned; that they follow the fallen, the erring, the outcasts, the friendless, and win them back to virtue, love and joy. But we have no more evidence of the existence of good spirits than of bad. The angels that visited Abraham and the mother of Samson are as unreal as the ghosts and goblins of the Middle Ages. The angel that stopped the donkey of Baalim, the one who walked in the furnace flames with Meshech, Shadrack and Abednego, the one who slew the Assyrians and the one who in a dream removed the suspicions of Joseph, were all created by the imagination of the credulous, by the lovers of the marvelous, and they have been handed down from dotage to infancy, from ignorance to ignorance, through all the years. Except in Catholic countries, no winged citizen of the celestial realm has visited the world for hundreds of years. Only those who are blind to facts can see these beautiful creatures, and only those who reach conclusions without the assistance of evidence can believe in their existence. It is told that the great Angelo, in decorating a church, painted some angels wearing sandals. A cardinal looking at the picture said to the artist: "Whoever saw angels with sandals?" Angelo answered with another question: "Whoever saw an angel bare-footed?"

The existence of angels has never been established. Of course, we know that millions and millions have believed in seraphim and cherubim; have believed that the angel Gabriel contended with the Devil for the body of Moses; that angels shut the mouths of the lions for the protection of Daniel; that angels ministered unto Christ, and that countless angels will accompany the Savior when he comes to take possession of the world. And we know that all these millions believe through blind, unreasoning faith, holding all evidence and all facts in theological contempt.

But the angels come no more. They bring no balm to any wounded heart. Long ago they folded their pinions and faded from the earth and air. These winged guardians no longer protect the innocent; no longer cheer the suffering; no longer whisper words of comfort to the helpless. They have become dreams -- vanished visions.

Feel better now that you got that anti-religious rant out of your system?

Originally posted by Frogger
Feel better now that you got that anti-religious rant out of your system?

a) It is less a rant and more a straightforward recitation of the facts.

b) There's more.

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V.

In the dear old religious days the earth was flat -- a little dishing, if anything -- and just above it was Jehovah's house, and just below it was where the Devil lived. God and his angels inhabited the third story, the Devil and his imps the basement, and the human race the second floor.

Then they knew where heaven was. They could almost hear the harps and hallelujahs. They knew where hell was, and they could almost hear the groans and smell the sulphurous fumes. They regarded the volcanoes as chimneys. They were perfectly acquainted with the celestial, the terrestrial and the infernal. They were quite familiar with the New Jerusalem, with its golden streets and gates of pearl. Then the translation of Enoch seemed reasonable enough, and no one doubted that before the flood the sons of God came down and made love to the daughters of men. The theologians thought that the builders of Babel would have succeeded if God had not come down and caused them to forget the meaning of words.

In those blessed days the priests knew all about heaven and hell. They knew that God governed the world by hope and fear, by promise and threat, by reward and punishment. The reward was to be eternal and so was the punishment. It was not God's plan to develop the human brain, so that man would perceive and comprehend the right and avoid the wrong. He taught ignorance, nothing but obedience, and for obedience he offered eternal joy. He loved the submissive -- the kneelers and crawlers. He hated the doubters, the investigators, the thinkers, the philosophers. For them he created the eternal prison where he could feed forever the hunger of his hate. He loved the credulous -- those who believed without evidence -- and for them he prepared a home in the realm of fadeless light. He delighted in the company of the questionless.

But where is this heaven, and where is this hell? We now know that heaven is not just above the clouds and that hell is not just below the earth. The telescope has done away with the ancient heaven, and the revolving world has quenched the flames of the ancient hell. These theological countries, these imagined worlds, have disappeared. No one knows, and no one pretends to know, where heaven is; and no one knows, and no one pretends to know, the locality of hell. Now the theologians say that hell and heaven are not places, but states of mind-conditions.

The belief in gods and devils has been substantially universal. Back of the good, man placed a god; back of the evil, a devil; back of health, sunshine and harvest was a good deity; back of disease, misfortune and death he placed a malicious fiend.

Is there any evidence that gods and devils exist? The evidence of the existence of a god and of a devil is substantially the same. Both of these deities are inferences; each one is a perhaps. They have not been seen -- they are invisible -- and they have not ventured within the horizon of the senses. The old lady who said there must be a devil, else how could they make pictures that looked exactly like him, reasoned like a trained theologian -- like a doctor of divinity.

Now no intelligent man believes in the existence of a devil -- no longer fears the leering fiend. Most people who think have given up a personal God, a creative deity. They now talk about the "Unknown," the "Infinite Energy," but they put Jehovah with Jupiter. They regard them both as broken dolls from the nursery of the past.

The men or women who ask for evidence -- who desire to know the truth -- care nothing for signs; nothing for what are called wonders; nothing for lucky or unlucky jewels, days or numbers; nothing for charms or amulets; nothing for comets or eclipses. and have no belief in good or evil spirits, in gods or devils. They place no reliance on general or special providence -- on any power that rescues, protects and saves the good or punishes the vile and vicious. They do not believe that in the whole history of mankind a prayer has been answered. They think that all the sacrifices have been wasted, and that all the incense has ascended in vain. They do not believe that the world was created and prepared for man any more than it was created and prepared for insects. They do not think it probable that whales were invented to supply the Eskimo with blubber, or that flames were created to attract and destroy moths. On every hand there seems to be evidence of design -- design for the accomplishment of good, design for the accomplishment of evil. On every side are the benevolent and malicious -- something toiling to preserve, something laboring to destroy. Everything surrounded by friends and enemies -- by the love that protects, by the hate that kills. Design is as apparent in decay, as in growth; in failure, as in success; in grief, as in joy. Nature with one hand building, with one hand tearing down, armed with sword and shield -- slaying and protecting, and protecting but to slay. All life journeying toward death, and all death hastening back to life. Everywhere waste and economy, care and negligence.

We watch the flow and ebb of life and death -- the great drama that forever holds the stage, where players act their parts and disappear; the great drama in which all must act -- ignorant and learned, idiotic and insane -- without rehearsal and without the slightest knowledge of a part, or of any plot or purpose in the play. The scene shifts; some actors disappear and others come, and again the scene shifts; mystery everywhere. We try to explain, and the explanation of one fact contradicts another. Behind each veil removed, another. All things equal in wonder. One drop of water as wonderful as all the seas; one grain of sand as all the world; one moth with painted wings as all the things that live; one egg from which warmth, in darkness, woos to life an organized and breathing form -- a form with sinews, bones and nerves, with blood and brain, with instincts, passions, thoughts and wants -- as all the stars that wheel in space.

The smallest seed that, wrapped in soil, has dreams of April rains and days of June, withholds its secret from the wisest men. The wisdom of the world cannot explain one blade of grass, the faintest motion of the smallest leaf. And yet theologians, popes, priests, parsons, who speechless stand before the wonder of the smallest thing that is, know all about the origin of worlds, know when the beginning was, when the end will be, know all about the God who with a wish created all, know what his plan and purpose was, the means he uses and the end he seeks. To them all mysteries have been revealed, except the mystery of things that touch the senses of a living man.

But honest men do not pretend to know; they are candid and sincere; they love the truth; they admit their ignorance, and they say, "We do not know."

After all, why should we worship our ignorance, why should we kneel to the Unknown, why should we prostrate ourselves before a guess?

If God exists, how do we know that he is good, that he cares for us? The Christians say that their God has existed from eternity; that he forever has been, and forever will be, infinite, wise and good. Could this God have avoided being God? Could he have avoided being good? Was he wise and good without his wish or will?

Being from eternity, he was not produced. He was back of all cause. What he is, he was, and will be, unchanged, unchangeable. He had nothing to do with the making or developing of his character. Nothing to do with the development of his mind. What he was, he is. He has made no progress. What he is, he will be, there can be no change. Why then, I ask, should we praise him? He could not have been different from what he was and is. Why should we pray to him? He cannot change.

And yet Christians implore their God not to do wrong.

The meanest thing charged against the Devil is that he leads the children of men into temptation, and yet, in the Lord's Prayer, God is insultingly asked not to imitate the king of fiends.

"Lead us not into temptation."

Why should God demand praise? He is as he was. He has never learned anything; has never practiced any self-denial; was never tempted, never touched by fear or hope, and never had a want. Why should he demand our praise?

Does anyone know that this God exists; that he ever heard or answered any prayer? Is it known that he governs the world; that he interferes in the affairs of men; that he protects the good or punishes the wicked? Can evidence of this be found in the history of mankind? If God governs the world, why should we credit him for the good and not charge him with the evil? To Justify this God we must say that good is good and that evil is also good. If all is done by this God we should make no distinction between his actions -- between the actions of the infinitely wise, powerful and good. If we thank him for sunshine and harvest we should also thank him for plague and famine. If we thank him for liberty, the slave should raise his chained hands in worship and thank God that he toils unpaid with the lash upon his naked back. If we thank him for victory we should thank him for defeat.

Only a few days ago our President, by proclamation, thanked God for giving us the victory at Santiago. He did not thank him for sending the yellow fever. To be consistent the President should have thanked him equally for both.

The truth is that good and evil spirits -- gods and devils -- are beyond the realm of experience; beyond the horizon of our senses; beyond the limits of our thoughts; beyond imagination's utmost flight.

Man should think; he should use all his senses; he should examine; he should reason. The man who cannot think is less than man; the man who will not think is traitor to himself; the man who fears to think is superstition's slave.

VI.

What harm does superstition do? What harm in believing in fables, in legends?

To believe in signs and wonders, in amulets, charms and miracles, in gods and devils, in heavens and hells, makes the brain an insane ward, the world a madhouse, takes all certainty from the mind, makes experience a snare, destroys the kinship of effect and cause -- the unity of nature -- and makes man a trembling serf and slave. With this belief a knowledge of nature sheds no light upon the path to be pursued. Nature becomes a puppet of the unseen powers. The fairy, called the supernatural, touches with her wand a fact, it disappears. Causes are barren of effects, and effects are independent of all natural causes. Caprice is king. The foundation is gone. The great dome rests on air. There is no constancy in qualities, relations or results. Reason abdicates and superstition wears her crown.

The heart hardens and the brain softens.

The energies of man are wasted in a vain effort to secure the protection of the supernatural. Credulity, ceremony, worship, sacrifice and prayer take the place of honest work, of investigation, of intellectual effort, of observation, of experience. Progress becomes impossible.

Superstition is, always has been, and forever will be, the enemy of liberty.

Superstition created all the gods and angels, all the devils and ghosts, all the witches, demons and goblins, gave us all the augurs, soothsayers and prophets, filled the heavens with signs and wonders, broke the chain of cause and effect, and wrote the history of man in miracles and lies. Superstition made all the popes, cardinals, bishops and priests, all the monks and nuns, the begging friars and the filthy saints, all the preachers and exhorters, all the "called" and "set apart." Superstition made men fall upon their knees before beasts and stones, caused them to worship snakes and trees and insane phantoms of the air, beguiled them of their gold and toil, and made them shed their children's blood and give their babes to flames. Superstition built the cathedrals and temples, all the altars, mosques and churches, filled the world with amulets and charms, with images and idols, with sacred bones and holy hairs, with martyrs' blood and rags, with bits of wood that frighten devils from the breasts of men. Superstition invented and used the instruments of torture, flayed men and women alive, loaded millions with chains and destroyed hundreds of thousands with fire. Superstition mistook insanity for inspiration and the ravings of maniacs for prophesy, for the wisdom of God. Superstition imprisoned the virtuous, tortured the thoughtful, killed the heroic, put chains on the body, manacles on the brain, and utterly destroyed the liberty of speech. Superstition gave us all the prayers and ceremonies; taught all the kneelings, genuflections and prostrations; taught men to hate themselves, to despise pleasure, to scar their flesh, to grovel in the dust, to desert their wives and children, to shun their fellow-men, and to spend their lives in useless pain and prayer. Superstition taught that human love is degrading, low and vile; taught that monks are purer than fathers, that nuns are holier than mothers, that faith is superior to fact, that credulity leads to heaven, that doubt is the road to hell, that belief is better than knowledge, and that to ask for evidence is to insult God. Superstition is, always has been, and forever will be, the foe of progress, the enemy of education and the assassin of freedom. It sacrifices the known to the unknown, the present to the future, this actual world to the shadowy next. It has given us a selfish heaven, and a hell of infinite revenge; it has filled the world with hatred, war and crime, with the malice of meekness and the arrogance of humility. Superstition is the only enemy of science in all the world.

Nations, races, have been destroyed by this monster. For nearly two thousand years the infallible agent of God has lived in Italy. That country has been covered with nunneries, monasteries, cathedrals and temples -- filled with all varieties of priests and holy men. For centuries Italy was enriched with the gold of the faithful. All roads led to Rome, and these roads were filled with pilgrims bearing gifts, and yet Italy, in spite of all the prayers, steadily pursued the downward path, died and was buried, and would at this moment be in her grave had it not been for Cavour, Mazzini and Garibaldi. For her poverty, her misery, she is indebted to the holy Catholic Church, to the infallible agents of God. For the life she has she is indebted to the enemies of superstition. A few years ago Italy was great enough to build a monument to Giordano Bruno -- Bruno, the victim of the "Triumphant Beast;" -- Bruno, the sublimest of her sons.

Spain was at one time owner of half the earth, and held within her greedy hands the gold and silver of the world. At that time all nations were in the darkness of superstition. At that time the world was governed by priests. Spain clung to her creed. Some nations began to think, but Spain continued to believe. In some counties, priests lost power, but not in Spain. The power behind her throne was the cowled monk. In some countries men began to interest themselves in science, but not in Spain. Spain told her beads and continued to pray to the Virgin. Spain was busy saving her soul. In her zeal she destroyed herself. She relied on the supernatural; not on knowledge, but superstition. Her prayers were never answered. The saints were dead. They could not help, and the Blessed Virgin did not hear. Some countries were in the dawn of a new day, but Spain gladly remained in the night. With fire and sword she exterminated the men who thought. Her greatest festival was the Auto da Fe. Other nations grew great while Spain grew small. Day by day her power waned, but her faith increased. One by one her colonies were lost, but she kept her creed. She gave her gold to superstition, her brain to priests, but she faithfully counted her beads. Only a few days ago, relying on her God and his priests, on charms and amulets, on holy water and pieces of the true cross, she waged war against the great Republic. Bishops blessed her armies and sprinkled holy water on her ships, and yet her armies were defeated and captured, her ships battered, beached and burned, and in her helplessness she sued for peace. But she has her creed; her superstition is not lost. Poor Spain, wrecked by faith, the victim of religion.

Portugal, slowly dying, growing poorer every day, still clings to the faith. Her prayers are never answered, but she makes them still. Austria is nearly gone, a victim of superstition. Germany is traveling toward the night. God placed her Kaiser on the throne. The people must obey. Philosophers and scientists fall upon their knees and become the puppets of the divinely crowned.

The revelation that religion is the root of all evil will be a great relief to the suffering masses of atheistic North Korea.

Excellent post FT.

Originally posted by Blob
The revelation that religion is the root of all evil will be a great relief to the suffering masses of atheistic North Korea.

I am not aware of Ingersoll [or anyone else] having asserted here that **religion is the root of all evil**.

Please provide the evidence that would support what you're implying.

Or, conversely, you could just admit you dishonestly floated a bit of bullshit exaggeration in order to try scoring a point.

And you succeeded, Blob.

Score

Freethinker 0
Blob 1

Originally posted by Freethinker
I am not aware of Ingersoll [or anyone else] having asserted here that **religion is the root of all evil**.

Please provide the evidence that would support what you're implying.Are you a lawyer in real life or something?

I hereby testify to those present that I take back the phrase "religion is the root of all evil". It was entirely misrepresentative of the above article and had no basis in fact.

Or, conversely, you could just admit you dishonestly floated a bit of bullshit exaggeration in order to try scoring a point. I furthermore acknowledge that "religion is the root of all evil" is a bullshit exageration of the above article which I posted sarcastically in a failed attempt to score a point.

Happy now?

But, seriously, what do you make of undeniably atheistic North Korea, FT? I wouldn't want to live there.

So, then, their ain't suffering masses of Christianic SOUTH Korea?




Aigo, chukka, ne...




:(

Actually the people of NK are suffering at the hands of an egotistical, self-proclaimed God.

What right does one man have to tell another what to do?

He has no such right and is therefore placing himself above mankind when engaging in such. Proclaimations become mantra, opposition becomes evil, obedience becomes praise.

He has every right to tell others what to do. On the other hand, they have every right to tell him to go fu*k himself.

Still doesn't mean that he hasn't self-imposed himself as a god.

He hasn't proclaimed himself a god. That would be the height of folly in an atheistic society. What he has done is build a cult of personality around himself, or rather extend the cult of personality that his father had built to include himself.

Jest a mutter of history...



When the bubonic plague wiped out a THIRD of Europe in the "good ol" daze...




...the Catholic Church sold... tickets ta Heaven...




www.it's-been-reported-that-the-number-of-believers-back-then-went...down.edu



:(



www.beware-of-permanent-prayin'-damage,voters.edu

Until the Catholic Church lost its political power during the Industrial Revolution, I doubt anyone was a believer due to anything but fear or greed.

That's a bit of a simplification, Odder. The Roman Catholic Church did not sell tickets to heaven. It sold indulgences.

The selling of indulgences is dependent on a belief in purgatory, a sort of way station for the soul on its voyage to heaven. The thinking was that good works, and observing certain rituals could lessen a souls time in purgatory. Among the rituals to be observed was the visiting of certain holy sites especially sites where reliqaries held the mortal remains of saints. The church realized that not everyone could take the time to visit these sites and that not everyone could afford to do so, so they said that people who could not visit the holy sites could gain some of the benefits of the visit by sponsoring someone else's visit. In other words, pay money.

Most people did not buy indulgences for themselves but for departed loved ones.
this changed in the early sixteenth century when Johann Tetzel, a Dominican Monk began traveling through Germany selling indulgences that would allow one to sin without fear of punishment. Although he still proclaimed, "When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." This selling of indulgences in order to allow people to sin without fear of retribution was one of the 95 Theses Martin Luther hung on the door of the Wittenburg church.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Indulgence.PNG

This is a copy of an actual indulgence signed by Tetzel in which he promises the bearer freedom to sin without repercussions for a period of ten days.

Originally posted by Blob
Are you a lawyer in real life or something?

I hereby testify to those present that I take back the phrase "religion is the root of all evil". It was entirely misrepresentative of the above article and had no basis in fact.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Blob
I furthermore acknowledge that "religion is the root of all evil" is a bullshit exageration of the above article which I posted sarcastically in a failed attempt to score a point.

Happy now?

If you were being sarcastic and were not really trying to make a serious commentary, i apologize. I did not recognize it as such.

Originally posted by Blob
But, seriously, what do you make of undeniably atheistic North Korea, FT? I wouldn't want to live there.



Huh?!?!?.....before, you WERE being sarcastic, but NOW, you ARE wanting to make a serious point about North Korea being atheistic....?!?!

How odd.

Anyway, to answer your question, I am not really certain what you mean about North Korea as it regards this particular discussion, because I see zero relevance that the fact that NK is atheistic has to the fact that the basis of religious belief is possessing a superstitious mindset.

If your question concerns NK being a 'worse' country than the US, even though this nation is very religious and NK is not religious at all, i'd say [as others have touched on] that their political situation (IOW, the harsh dictatorship they live under) has more to do with their living conditions than anything to do with the nation as a whole being religious versus non-religious.

Originally posted by Frogger
And you succeeded, Blob.

Score

Freethinker 0
Blob 1

Blob not only did not score a point, but has retracted the entire statement.

Egg;..............meet Frogger's face.

________________________________

We live in a world full of people who cannot think or reason clearly. Sanity is an island battered in an ocean of frothing delusion. The people who believe in science are the minority. The people who believe in bloody, supernaturalist fairytales are the overwhelming majority.

Originally posted by Freethinker
If you were being sarcastic and were not really trying to make a serious commentary, i apologize. I did not recognize it as such.

Huh?!?!?.....before, you WERE being sarcastic, but NOW, you ARE wanting to make a serious point about North Korea being atheistic....?!?!

How odd.It was a serious point all along, albeit expressed in a wisecrack.

Anyway, to answer your question, I am not really certain what you mean about North Korea as it regards this particular discussion, because I see zero relevance that the fact that NK is atheistic has to the fact that the basis of religious belief is possessing a superstitious mindset. Yes it's a slight tangent. And for the record I do of course agree religion is based in superstitions. But I am less condemning of this than the writer of the article and think religion can be a positive thing nonetheless.

Unlike many Americans, my atheism is apolitical because non-religious systems can be just as bad. If I were American I would probably be concerned by the politicisation of the religious right and take a more political view of religious matters.

If your question concerns NK being a 'worse' country than the US, even though this nation is very religious and NK is not religious at all, i'd say [as others have touched on] that their political situation (IOW, the harsh dictatorship they live under) has more to do with their living conditions than anything to do with the nation as a whole being religious versus non-religious. I think their living conditions are a result of the dictatorship.

I think religion can be for good or bad depending on the context. In the case of NK, for example, if bibles were to be smuggled in and people found god perhaps this could be liberating and cause the government to crumble. That's just speculation I know, but Chomsky, for example, celebrates the cooperatives created by catholic priests in Brazil as a positive political development.

I guess my discussion isn't good enough for you, Blob. :(

Sorry for the delay, I'm on holiday at the moment. I'll probably start two new threads to reply to both you and Inviolable when I get back.

The fact that he scored the point has nothing to do with his intentions, only with the results.


I repeat.

Blob 1
Freethinker 0

Originally posted by Freethinker
I am not aware of Ingersoll [or anyone else] having asserted here that **religion is the root of all evil**.

Please provide the evidence that would support what you're implying.

Or, conversely, you could just admit you dishonestly floated a bit of bullshit exaggeration in order to try scoring a point.

According to the bible itself, god is the source of all evil.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

What he has done is build a cult of personality around himself, or rather extend the cult of personality that his father had built to include himself. Ummm, frogger what are cults normally centered around?....

To address the title of this thread, what are the true foundations of religious beliefs?

Considering evidence of spirituality or religion can be traced to atleast Neanderthal, it does make one wonder. We can see from there it evolved as man and culture evolved.

Can we say perhaps that man is hardwired for the belief in a Higher Power or god or gods?

Originally posted by stillJR
To address the title of this thread, what are the true foundations of religious beliefs?

Considering evidence of spirituality or religion can be traced to atleast Neanderthal, it does make one wonder. We can see from there it evolved as man and culture evolved.

Can we say perhaps that man is hardwired for the belief in a Higher Power or god or gods?

It is easier to believe in a higher power than to do the work and actually collect the emphirical data required to evaluate and prove otherwise.

Man has always wanted to find a reason for things he does not understand. If he is unable to find a reason, he uses god as the only reason available. Thus we have the "god of the gap" syndrome. Anything that cannot be explained he assumes is "obviously" created by god.

Originally posted by Taji
It is easier to believe in a higher power than to do the work and actually collect the emphirical data required to evaluate and prove otherwise.

Man has always wanted to find a reason for things he does not understand. If he is unable to find a reason, he uses god as the only reason available. Thus we have the "god of the gap" syndrome. Anything that cannot be explained he assumes is "obviously" created by god.

How does one either prove or disprove the existence of a Higher Power, or God? We can only form conclusions or opinions, yet there are not absolutes.

I agree that man has always pasted the title of either good or evil upon that which he does not understand, and for most this would mean either a "god" or a "demon."

If you look in the New Testament, it is written of those who were possessed with deaf and dumb demons. (It would be tough being deaf in those days!) Those who were suffering from epilepsy were also considered possessed with a demon. Proof in black and white of labeling that which they do not understand as either or.

Originally posted by stillJR
How does one either prove or disprove the existence of a Higher Power, or God? We can only form conclusions or opinions, yet there are not absolutes.

I agree that man has always pasted the title of either good or evil upon that which he does not understand, and for most this would mean either a "god" or a "demon."

If you look in the New Testament, it is written of those who were possessed with deaf and dumb demons. (It would be tough being deaf in those days!) Those who were suffering from epilepsy were also considered possessed with a demon. Proof in black and white of labeling that which they do not understand as either or.

So far there is not even any proof of the life of Jesus Christ. There is no evidence of his esistance on this earth, no documents that he wrote, no paintings or drawings of him, no carpentry work, nothing written about him during his life time. That is very powerful evidence of omission of someone who supposedly was the most important man in history. You would have thought that someone would have recognized that point and saved some momento of his life. But apparently not. That speaks volumns to me.

Originally posted by Taji
So far there is not even any proof of the life of Jesus Christ. There is no evidence of his esistance on this earth, no documents that he wrote, no paintings or drawings of him, no carpentry work, nothing written about him during his life time. That is very powerful evidence of omission of someone who supposedly was the most important man in history. You would have thought that someone would have recognized that point and saved some momento of his life. But apparently not. That speaks volumns to me.

There are some skeptics who believe Jesus was a mythical character, but the vast majority do not doubt his existence. The real debate is whether or not he was the messiah or the "son of God."

If Jesus did not exist, than a whole lot of people went to a great extreme to make up a tale.

Thomas Jefferson himself believed in the man Jesus, but not as the son of God, or the supernatural Jesus. He is quoted many times of Jesus being one of the greatest philosophers, and went so far as rewriting the New Testament, void of all miracles, including the resurrection.

My personal take on Jesus was he was quite the rebel, and most likely someone who I would have enjoyed hanging out with. I would also have enjoyed sitting at the feet of Socrates as well as Buddha.

<<Originally posted by stillJR
There are some skeptics who believe Jesus was a mythical character, but the vast majority do not doubt his existence. The real debate is whether or not he was the messiah or the "son of God."

If Jesus did not exist, than a whole lot of people went to a great extreme to make up a tale.

Thomas Jefferson himself believed in the man Jesus, but not as the son of God, or the supernatural Jesus. He is quoted many times of Jesus being one of the greatest philosophers, and went so far as rewriting the New Testament, void of all miracles, including the resurrection.


My personal take on Jesus was he was quite the rebel, and most likely someone who I would have enjoyed hanging out with. I would also have enjoyed sitting at the feet of Socrates as well as Buddha. >>


Jesus may NOT be the biblical messiah awaited by the Jews. We know that the messiah complex is a mental illness and finding it manifested in ancient times is no less sad than when we encounter it now in the population.

Three Jesuses who thought they were messiahs are mentioned in the xn bible. Eight Jesuses who thought themselves messiahs are listed in the writings of Josephus.

"There were plenty of godmen at the time of Jesus, and a great number of them were called Jesus. Only in the New Testament we have Jesus Bar Abbas (in later manuscripts called Barabbas) and Bar Jesus. Josephus identifies a few of these messiahs: Jesus son of Danmeus, Jesus son of Sapphias, Jesus son of Ananus, Jesus the high priest and son of Onias, Jesus son of Gamaliel, Jesus son of Gamala, Jesus son of Saphat, Jesus son of Thebuthus. Couldn't Jesus have been inspired by some of these messiahs?"

A large part of the Christ story is a synthesis of these ancient Pagan myths about the dying and resurrecting of Godman Osiris-Dionysus. Why did they adopt these myths and apply them to Jesus?
The ancient myths about the Pagan Godman Osiris-Dionysus, the 'virgin birth', 'resurrection after death', etc., existed 500 years before the birth of Jesus. It's a stolen idea from the pagans. The story in the bible is not original, authentic in any in any sense, because Isaiah got the idea from old Pagan myths, figuring that he could pass them off as new to another generation. Later, the myths were applied to Jesus.

Originally posted by Taji
<< >>


Jesus may NOT be the biblical messiah awaited by the Jews. We know that the messiah complex is a mental illness and finding it manifested in ancient times is no less sad than when we encounter it now in the population.

Three Jesuses who thought they were messiahs are mentioned in the xn bible. Eight Jesuses who thought themselves messiahs are listed in the writings of Josephus.

"There were plenty of godmen at the time of Jesus, and a great number of them were called Jesus. Only in the New Testament we have Jesus Bar Abbas (in later manuscripts called Barabbas) and Bar Jesus. Josephus identifies a few of these messiahs: Jesus son of Danmeus, Jesus son of Sapphias, Jesus son of Ananus, Jesus the high priest and son of Onias, Jesus son of Gamaliel, Jesus son of Gamala, Jesus son of Saphat, Jesus son of Thebuthus. Couldn't Jesus have been inspired by some of these messiahs?"

A large part of the Christ story is a synthesis of these ancient Pagan myths about the dying and resurrecting of Godman Osiris-Dionysus. Why did they adopt these myths and apply them to Jesus?
The ancient myths about the Pagan Godman Osiris-Dionysus, the 'virgin birth', 'resurrection after death', etc., existed 500 years before the birth of Jesus. It's a stolen idea from the pagans. The story in the bible is not original, authentic in any in any sense, because Isaiah got the idea from old Pagan myths, figuring that he could pass them off as new to another generation. Later, the myths were applied to Jesus.

Do tell! I have new research to do I see. Speaking of taking pagan myths and converting them to the bible, we can look at Noah's flood. First the Sumeriens, than the Babylonians, followed by Genesis. The Epic of Gilgamesh has numerous and obvious similarities to that of Genesis.

Originally posted by stillJR
Do tell! I have new research to do I see. Speaking of taking pagan myths and converting them to the bible, we can look at Noah's flood. First the Sumeriens, than the Babylonians, followed by Genesis. The Epic of Gilgamesh has numerous and obvious similarities to that of Genesis.

There is a lot in the bible that is not original. There is also a lot of personal & politial agenda of the individuals who wrote it as well. To say that it is simply a religious text is not true. ONce you know the political history of the life of the writer, much of the stories change meaning.

Originally posted by Taji
There is a lot in the bible that is not original. There is also a lot of personal & politial agenda of the individuals who wrote it as well. To say that it is simply a religious text is not true. ONce you know the political history of the life of the writer, much of the stories change meaning.

It is of my opinion that most of the old testament is a very bias history of a group of people, with their own spin with of course added myths taken from other cultures. How convenient though how most religions see themselves as the "truly enlighened ones" believing they alone hold the truth. That they alone are favored in the eyes of their god, and so many wonder why we have yet to obtain peace in this world. How many wars have been fought in the name of "god?"

To Taji:

I am quite happy that I found this forum! Thanks for the info, as I have been researching online this morning. Quite amazing to say the least. This just reaffirms my suspicion of all religions originating from Animism.

Originally posted by stillJR
To Taji:

I am quite happy that I found this forum! Thanks for the info, as I have been researching online this morning. Quite amazing to say the least. This just reaffirms my suspicion of all religions originating from Animism.

You very well may be rigtht. There certainly is not much original thought in christianity either.

Most christians believe god is loving, yet that is not what is written in the scriptures. It clearly states that god created evil & uses it whenever he chooses. The god of the bible is more like a terrorist and slaughters innocent children and the unborn, women, the elderly & demands human sacrifice. There are also thousands of acts of unspeakable violence and atrocities.

God also has a complete different set of rules for behavior for mankind than he does for himself. If god himself cannot mantain a decent standard of behavior without temper tantum, jealousy & violence, how can he expect mankind to do it?

Throughout history those kinds of god have all been proven to be the main charachters of mythology. I agree with that. An omnipotant god would not have the need for dramatic displays of overt power, rage & jealously.

Originally posted by Taji
You very well may be rigtht. There certainly is not much original thought in christianity either.

Most christians believe god is loving, yet that is not what is written in the scriptures. It clearly states that god created evil & uses it whenever he chooses. The god of the bible is more like a terrorist and slaughters innocent children and the unborn, women, the elderly & demands human sacrifice. There are also thousands of acts of unspeakable violence and atrocities.

God also has a complete different set of rules for behavior for mankind than he does for himself. If god himself cannot mantain a decent standard of behavior without temper tantum, jealousy & violence, how can he expect mankind to do it?

Throughout history those kinds of god have all been proven to be the main charachters of mythology. I agree with that. An omnipotant god would not have the need for dramatic displays of overt power, rage & jealously.

The Old Testament is extremely violent, with justification of brutal murder of deemed "guilty" as well as innocent. It is extremely difficult to find any sort of love or compassion in such a god.

It would be quite easy to draw to the conclusion that man has formed god in his own image, according to his own needs or wishes.

What puzzles me is how normally intelligent individuals can still buy into the belief that this god would choose only certain people to reveal his intentions or mysteries to. Especially regarding the way this was supposedly done. With Moses, it was a burning bush. (Now that really had to be some powerful stuff he was smoking!) There are times when I wonder if many of these so called prophets were in fact suffering from a mental illness, believing themselves as chosen, or were actually hallucinatory.

Bringing back animism, spirits or spiritual beings were believed to reveal themselves through dreams or visions to the select few. Follow this belief from middle paleolithic age, right into the common era, and it is still very alive and well in all religions today.

Originally posted by stillJR
The Old Testament is extremely violent, with justification of brutal murder of deemed "guilty" as well as innocent. It is extremely difficult to find any sort of love or compassion in such a god.

It would be quite easy to draw to the conclusion that man has formed god in his own image, according to his own needs or wishes.

What puzzles me is how normally intelligent individuals can still buy into the belief that this god would choose only certain people to reveal his intentions or mysteries to. Especially regarding the way this was supposedly done. With Moses, it was a burning bush. (Now that really had to be some powerful stuff he was smoking!) There are times when I wonder if many of these so called prophets were in fact suffering from a mental illness, believing themselves as chosen, or were actually hallucinatory.

Bringing back animism, spirits or spiritual beings were believed to reveal themselves through dreams or visions to the select few. Follow this belief from middle paleolithic age, right into the common era, and it is still very alive and well in all religions today.

The truth is they did not have to be smoking anything. It is a well known fact that the poor storage of rye, in ancient times, caused it to ferment & it becomes toxic producing a substance called ergot. That ergot when digested causes hallucinations. Which could very well account for many of the so called visions that were attributed to the prophets. There could also very easily have been mental illness involved as well. Today people who go around calling themselves the messiah are in mental institutions. Back then, minor mental defects were not easily detected and not attributed to mental disease at all. People were very naive as far as mental illness was concerned.