Jacques the Ripper
By June Thomas
Posted Friday, March 14, 2003, at 3:29 PM PT

As far as the Sun, Britain's top-selling paper, is concerned, "one man has put the lives of 300,000 British and American troops on the line." Saddam Hussein? Osama Bin Laden? No, "Only Jacques Chirac's arrogance, stupidity and personal vanity are to blame for bringing us to the brink of a terrible war with Iraq." The editorial claimed the French president just wants to "resurrect his tarnished political career at home and protect his dirty oil and trade deals with Iraq. Now he struts the world stage like a peacock on heat, convincing himself he is a major player. It is the biggest mistake of his life."

The paper's Web site offered a tasteful graphic showing Chirac's face morphing into that of his "pal" Saddam Hussein. Elsewhere, head shots of the two leaders appeared over the headline, "Spot the Difference. One is a corrupt bully who is endangering world peace. The other is Saddam Hussein." The paper's political editor warned that "charlatan Jacques Chirac is basking in cheap applause for his 'Save Saddam' campaign—but his treachery will cost his people dear. … For all his lofty pretence, Chirac's motive is to boost French oil and trade deals with Iraq."

So true - he is a disgrace to the western world & a great shame for the French people.

I thought it interesting that last week when the British propsed 6 clear tests of a willingness to disarm - Ch-iraq rejected the proposal BEFORE Iraq rejected it !!!

Ch-iraq is a arrogant french fool

I'm with you DrewM, this guy is a joke.

"In recent days France has been at the receiving end of the most vitriolic criticism. However, it is not France alone that wants more time for inspections. Germany is opposed to us. Russia is opposed to us. Indeed at no time have we signed up even the minimum majority to carry a second resolution. We delude ourselves about the degree of international hostility to military action if we imagine that it is all the fault of President Chirac.

The harsh reality is that Britain is being asked to embark on a war without agreement in any of the international bodies of which we are a leading member. Not Nato. Not the EU. And now not the security council. To end up in such diplomatic isolation is a serious reverse. Only a year ago we and the US were part of a coalition against terrorism which was wider and more diverse than I would previously have thought possible. History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition. "

Robin Cook, leader of the House of Commons, in his resignation letter.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,916359,00.html

Yep but a coalition with France is close to worthless anyway - when will you understand that the US has zero use, respect, or need for France. If you want to work with the US - then great, but clearly France is against the US - don't pretend otherwise. France did wreck the UN process by stating they would veto no matter what. France must now accept the consequences - which will be further isolation and irrelevance on the world scene.

The days of the UN security council are numbered, it is an undemocratic & 1945 focused aparatus that makes no sense today. Expect the UN security council to evolve into something different. It's unlikely France could maintain it's veto holding position. Without a veto card - France has no greater relevance or voice than Swaziland. On top of that France's position in the EU is in steep decline.

The focus on the war on terror will continue unchanged. Look how fast the whole world changed it's focus after 9-11. That is because the US sets the focus for other countries to follow. This is a plain fact even if you don't like the reality of it. The US position of economic & military weight wasn't a gift - it was created by the US people. All the factors point to the increase of US power / influence over the next 20 years at least & the steady decline of "old Europe" - the plain truth is you can't compete - so countries like France try to take the role of "brakes on the machine" - good luck with that.

The problem is not France being isolated. It is the UK and USA having totally messed up their diplomacy. The USA are more isolated than ever. They have failed to get support from most of their former allies. Russia and China, in contradiction with all previsions, have not agreed to their war.
So, sure, the USA do not need France or any other country to win this war. Sure, the USA are THE superpower. But what will the USA do after they "win" this war ? How will they administrate Iraq alone ? How will they fight terrorism alone ?

You keep on missing the point. It doesn't matter if nations like France help with rebuilding, with the war on terror or anything else. France is too irrelevant to matter. In a world with 192 nations - there are always going to be a significant number that will side with & support the US because the economics of the world revolves around the US. Not by any stretch of the imagination does much revolve around countries like France except wine & cheese.

You are right that the US diplomacy could have been better, but it's hard to deal with countries that absolutely are not willing to face upto their responsibilities in the UN, and say they will "veto no matter what" and reject proposals even before Iraq does. France only had a voice because the US chose to go the UN route - so the burden was on France, not the US. They blew it. Increased support for the war in the UK & the US is directly due to the French position.

France is isolated & after this war is won will be further isolated - why? because they are too insignificant to be anything other than isolated. No matter what - the US will not be isolated - it's too big to be isolated - so wheras other countries can easily ignore France, they can't so easily ignore the US.

France's position was bankrupt from the start - they wanted containment, appeasement & eventual lifting of sanctions so THEY could benefit from less than $50b in trade - it was NEVER about the Iraqi people. It was ALWAYS about promoting French influence & relevance - which is a non-starter and a pure case of avoiding reality & avoiding change (which is a French speciality). Even now, with troops going into battle - France is still harping on and sticking the knife into the US. They are incapable of showing any solidarity because they are too proud & too too stuck in a 200 year old picture of their importance. France is irelevant - when will you undertand that? The good people of France should elect leaders that have a clue before it is too late. It's unfortuanate that in France you only have 2 choices in elected officials - Communists, or Elitists from the "old boys network"

Villepin is at the UN today, nobody is even interested.

If Hussain flee's Iraq - he should go to his great ally France, where he will be welcomed with open arms, especially if he brings the codes to his swiss bank accounts - Maybe he could share an apartement with Ch-Iraq, or run for election in France, maybe one day he could be the president of France & the story would be complete.

Well, excuse me, but YOU miss the point.
I don't talk about France any more. I talk about the USA. Just read again the pathetic list of the only countries that support this war. Who is hoing to help Bush rebuild Iraq ? Eritrea ? Latvia ? Who is going to help you in the "war against terror" ? Slovakia ?
The fact is the USA are more lonely than they ever have been since 1917.

There used to be a rather common saying in the US that went something like this: .....when General Motors sneezes, the whole country gets a cold.....(or words to that effect). I submit that one might change GM to USA, and country to world so it might apply to the present.
It's rather hard to believe that the USA, and friends will be alone when it comes to the rehabilitation of Iraq once the shooting stops. There's going to be no shortage of perks in digging Iraq out of it's present situation, and even the most ardent of anti-war types are going to be in line to get their piece of that particular pie.

You must be confused… I thought the point was not getting "pieces of the pie" but helping the poor Iraqi people to build a noble democracy and to implement free-market ? To set an example for the world to follow ? To restore justice and hope in Middle East ?
Or am I wrong ? Is this finally a war to get Iraqi oil and building markets ?
:D

By the way, the US govt has already appointed friendly american companies to rebuild Iraq. Most of them with direct links withe the govt top members.

The rehabilitation of Iraq will be huge, make no mistake. In order to assist the Iraqi population mega-bucks (in any currency) will need to be spent rebuilding & repairing the infastructure. Is it misguided to believe that Iraq will pay for this?

Yes. It will take years to rebuild an Iraqi economy able to pay. The american taxpayer will pay for this reconstruction. Oh, I almost forgot, the Latvian and Eritrean taxpayer, maybe ? Or maybe they will just support the idea of rebuilding Iraq; like the 30 countries of the huge coalition "support" war.

Wait and see, bubba, wait and see which countries participate in the rehabilitation. Even your own country will assist. The American taxpayers have been called upon before....this won't be the first or the last time. It's the American way. While that may not be the BEST way, it's certainly way ahead of whatever is in third place.

Astropol - the point is that you cynically attack the purpose of the US & claim that the US is all lonely in the world. Your are fooling yourself - just wait & see.

You incinuate that the countries that support the US are somehow inferior ("..pathetic list..") - well "newsflash" - France is no more or less relevant than any of them.

The problem with countries like France is all you are about is hot air, opinions & words. You never take any action or have a clear sense of purpose that actually involves doing anything - France's history is full of the mistake of doing nothing. You'd rather be ruled by opinion polls - even now you think that polls in other countries have any relevance - they don't. If France doesn't like it - they should do something about it, which is an impossibilty. Whatever France says or thinks has ZERO relevance or impact in the world because they contribute close to nothing of any value. France seems to believe they have this important role or voice - that is absurd. They had a microphone at the UN & now that mic was turned off by the US & nobody is listening. Take away the veto ability from France and what is left - a tourist spot.

I have no doubt that you personally have good intent in your opinions - it's a shame that the elitist French leaders have hijacked public opinion.

Paris is in for one almighty embarrasement when the truth in Iraq comes out.

Drew, ES…
Maybe before Borghunter has to start telling us "no insults", it is time to calm down a little bit.
Your opinion is quite clear. I guess you also understand what I mean. We clearly disagree on many things - mostly analysis of the reasons why Bush wants this war and Chirac opposes to it, and about the diplomatic and economic consequences of this war. OK. I see no point in getting more angry at each other, when it is clear we won't change our minds.

Still, I think it is worth discussing.

What has been bugging me all these weeks is : how comes the opinions on both sides of the Atlantic have becomen so different ? There are equally well educated people in the USA and Europe, we share the same basic culture, political system and values. We have access to the same informations.

I do not buy the idea of propaganda. The press in both continents is rather free and independent. Being not an adept of conspiracy theories, I do not believe that some secret networks are busy manipulating people's minds.

So what ?
I posted large quotes from a remarkable article of the Washington Post in the thread "Dirty tricks". I think the main factors to explain this growing gap between Europe and the USA are quite well explained there.

What is your analysis ?

http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1455

My "attacks" on the integrity of France are based on your cynical analysis of the US. The US is not the bad guy - Sadaam Hussain is.

I know you are a peace-nik and you are entitled to your views. What you have never addressed is how your views sit with the actions of the French government. The French government are not simplistic peace-niks - their position is about containment of the US superpower. Your views are based on a reaction to war, Ch-iraq's position is not based on anything to do with Iraq - it is all about containment of the US.

Perhaps the people in France are concerned about the US - but I can tell you that people in the US don't care less what France says or thinks, the word France is not even any part of the news at this stage.

I think France has hugely miss-calculated. Explain how your views sit with the actions of the French government and don't say Ch-iraq cares anything about the horrors of war, or about Iraq - it has NOTHING to do with these issues.

Drew, no offense, but you're beginning to sound like Tent. He liked plays on words ("How em-bare-assing") and you with Ch-iraq. It makes you sound like a moron. I know you're not, but it does make you sound like one.

"no offense" - Thats all you have to add to the discussion?

I don't like to revisit things ten times...I've already said something in another thread earlier, I believe.

I think you said something like "war is bad" & "Bush is a monster" - profound

Notice that it's something you pro-war types have yet to grasp.

:)

Originally posted by DrewM

Perhaps the people in France are concerned about the US - but I can tell you that people in the US don't care less what France says or thinks, the word France is not even any part of the news at this stage.


You're funny. It is you, and you only in that forum, who keeps on talking about France again and again. If you have a personal problem with France you shoud see a shrink, because I can't do anything for you.

During much of the 20th Century France was insignificant - nothing but a loud voice, nothing to back it up. As we begin the 21st, not much has changed in that regard.

You're funny. It is you, and you only in that forum, who keeps on talking about France again and again. If you have a personal problem with France you shoud see a shrink, because I can't do anything for you.

Good job at avoiding the issues.

Originally posted by DrewM
Good job at avoiding the issues. Did you really expect any more than total avoidance of the issues?