http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.html

Very good if I do say so myself.

00Elf


Thank you for posting that. It was one of the most deeply profound yet simply put things I have ever seen on the internet.

If the download truely reflects how you feel I think you would enjoy reading anything written by the late Robert Nozick. The author paralleled his views almost exactly.

I posted The Philosophy of Liberty at another site I participate in, a site populated almost entirely by liberals of the more strident stripe and the comments were universally negative. Not only negative but downright nasty and directed at me personally for daring to post it.

It just reminded me again why I post there less and less and here more and more.

Even if people in allforums disagree with something they are able to do so without the constant flaming that goes on over there.

I hope everyone realizes how lucky we are to have a site like this.

Hohohohohooo! That was pretty funny.

After sitting through that eminently reasonable and well-thought out presentation, (as well as a little naive) I have come to the conclusion that liberty does not exist!

I watched it and thought it was quite good. I certainly don't see why anyone would attack someone who posted it. Philistines. :)

Originally posted by Frogger
I hope everyone realizes how lucky we are to have a site like this.

This is the first forum I tried (was it only a week ago?) and I liked it so much I looked for another. I went to www.politicsforum.org and was immediately set upon by neo-Stalinist reactionaries. After hours of intense battle I emerged intact, but spattered with the slime of vitriol, my mind numbed by the onslaught of idiocy, and I was very tired. My limited experience supports your observation.

BTW, where are these cretins? I'll learn'em a thing or two ...

pagan and sedan,

This is one of the few sites where flaming is not the order of the day. Overdose and I had a fairly serious disagreement but neither of us tossed any ad hominems at the other. We were able to disagree without being disagreeable. That is not the case at most other sites. Post something unpopular at other sites and it is not the posting that is attacked but the poster.

This is not just something liberals do. Try posting something critical of conservatives on Free Republic. I just happen to notice it more when liberals do it because they are the ones usually personally attacking me.

It seems they hope to drive away dissenting opinion and rather than having a debate site have a mutual admiriation site where everyone pats everyone else on the back saying, "We must be right. No one is disagreeing with us." As annoyed as I get, I refuse to be ridden out of town. I just stick around playing the role of gadfly, reminding them that there are views other than their own.

When I want adult debate I come here.

Originally posted by Frogger
This is one of the few sites where flaming is not the order of the day. Overdose and I had a fairly serious disagreement but neither of us tossed any ad hominems at the other. We were able to disagree without being disagreeable. That is not the case at most other sites. Post something unpopular at other sites and it is not the posting that is attacked but the poster.

This is not just something liberals do. Try posting something critical of conservatives on Free Republic. I just happen to notice it more when liberals do it because they are the ones usually personally attacking me.

I signed up at The Right Society, a forum whose leanings you can guess...I lasted about 20 minutes and I consider my posting style to be rather non-confrontational.


It seems they hope to drive away dissenting opinion and rather than having a debate site have a mutual admiriation site where everyone pats everyone else on the back saying, "We must be right. No one is disagreeing with us." As annoyed as I get, I refuse to be ridden out of town. I just stick around playing the role of gadfly, reminding them that there are views other than their own.

When I want adult debate I come here.

I was invited to post here by BorgHunter almost two years ago, and have enjoyed every minute of my time here. I've also been lucky enough to have made some good friends. I'm glad you decided to stick around Frogger, you make a fine addition to our group. :)

Originally posted by sedan
This is the first forum I tried (was it only a week ago?) and I liked it so much I looked for another. I went to www.politicsforum.org and was immediately set upon by neo-Stalinist reactionaries. After hours of intense battle I emerged intact, but spattered with the slime of vitriol, my mind numbed by the onslaught of idiocy, and I was very tired. My limited experience supports your observation.

BTW, where are these cretins? I'll learn'em a thing or two ...

This was also the first forum I've tried, but I've had little reason to look for another. I like the way you write sedan, and I hope you decide to stick around as well. Welcome to allforums.:)

Thank you for posting that. It was one of the most deeply profound yet simply put things I have ever seen on the internet.

Anytime

After sitting through that eminently reasonable and well-thought out presentation, (as well as a little naive) I have come to the conclusion that liberty does not exist!

Care to explain why? In your usual subjectivist tone of course.

Care to explain why? In your usual subjectivist tone of course.

Sure!

In the first place, this is a philosophy we are talking about. Philosophies don't actually exist, they are, by definition, figments of the mind. What turns them into reality are people implementing them. We don't actually have anybody with the power to implement the ideas of liberty detailed in that lovely link. And don't tell me that the US Government actually implements liberty, because that group of self-righteous blowhards that we call Congress, (ever actually written a letter to your congressman? I have,) is far more interested in getting reelected than actually representing the people.

It's so nice to be able to say that people in funny hats don't have the right to take our life, liberty, and property away, but that doesn't stop them from doing it, for reasons far more diverse and complicated than this puny, but interesting presentation, could ever even begin to touch upon. It's really cool that you can say on a website that our 'elected' rulers don't really run the show here, that it is really us; but that just does not reflect reality.

It is also fine to anthropormorphise and just flat out ignore the plight of the entire rest of the world, and make a few blanket statements about life in the first, all to score a few debate points. That is all that is ever going to happen, however, because no matter how 'universal' this philosophy thinks of itself as, there is no way it is ever going to surpass the level of interest group, that the presentation goes out of its way to belittle.

In the first place, this is a philosophy we are talking about. Philosophies don't actually exist, they are, by definition, figments of the mind. What turns them into reality are people implementing them. We don't actually have anybody with the power to implement the ideas of liberty detailed in that lovely link. And don't tell me that the US Government actually implements liberty, because that group of self-righteous blowhards that we call Congress, (ever actually written a letter to your congressman? I have,) is far more interested in getting reelected than actually representing the people.

This flash doesn't state the way things are, it suggests a way that things ought to be.

It's so nice to be able to say that people in funny hats don't have the right to take our life, liberty, and property away, but that doesn't stop them from doing it, for reasons far more diverse and complicated than this puny, but interesting presentation, could ever even begin to touch upon. It's really cool that you can say on a website that our 'elected' rulers don't really run the show here, that it is really us; but that just does not reflect reality.

Again, this flash is not upholding the status quo.

And read some more of the ISIL stuff, you will find that very little supports the way that things are.

It is also fine to anthropormorphise and just flat out ignore the plight of the entire rest of the world, and make a few blanket statements about life in the first, all to score a few debate points. That is all that is ever going to happen, however, because no matter how 'universal' this philosophy thinks of itself as, there is no way it is ever going to surpass the level of interest group, that the presentation goes out of its way to belittle.

That's what the 18th century Monarchs thought about Liberalism.

This flash doesn't state the way things are, it suggests a way that things ought to be.

And read some more of the ISIL stuff, you will find that very little supports the way that things are.

That is fine. You asked me why I don't think liberty exists, and I told you. Now it seems you were looking for me to attack it. Why should I? It's a nice philosophy, and a little naivete is a good thing.

And no, I don't care to read the rest of ISIL's articles. Believe it or not, they aren't the only group out there with an philosophy like this one. They just happen to have the flashy intro with the nice music. Trust me, I've heard it all before, and I already have a pretty good idea of what it is going to say. If I were interested in changing the world, then yes, I would become a full fledged believer, and send for the membership card. But I like the world as it is now, and I see no need to go on a quest to save it.

As for Liberalism, the 18th century monarchs are still right. Liberalism is still a philosophy that just doesn't exist in the real world, even though its interest group is bigger than most.

That is fine. You asked me why I don't think liberty exists, and I told you. Now it seems you were looking for me to attack it. Why should I? It's a nice philosophy, and a little naivete is a good thing.

Fine.

And no, I don't care to read the rest of ISIL's articles. Believe it or not, they aren't the only group out there with an philosophy like this one. They just happen to have the flashy intro with the nice music. Trust me, I've heard it all before, and I already have a pretty good idea of what it is going to say. If I were interested in changing the world, then yes, I would become a full fledged believer, and send for the membership card. But I like the world as it is now, and I see no need to go on a quest to save it.

There's also Cato, Free Republic, Partido Liberatad, Bureacrash, ect. But this site does have some good points overlooked elsewhere.

As for Liberalism, the 18th century monarchs are still right. Liberalism is still a philosophy that just doesn't exist in the real world, even though its interest group is bigger than most.

Except for Collectivism.

There are very few Liberals in this world (Collectivist Social Democrats aside), most, are just Stallinists in an Ayn Rand wig.

There are very few Liberals in this world (Collectivist Social Democrats aside), most, are just Stallinists in an Ayn Rand wig.

Stalinists, huh?

Fine, I suppose that there are a few Attleists in there as well.

Oh, pray, tell me what an 'Attleist' is.

I'm joking of course, but don't tell me that you've never heard of Clement Atllee!

That would be a negative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Attlee