Almost as old as civilization itself, perhaps older, religion has been a prevalent force in society. Some form of a religion has been incorporated into human culture, and it has shaped our history, government, economics, distribution of wealth, power, people, and more.

Billions have grasped onto one, finding self fulfillment in it or adhering to it for social reasons or other reasons forced upon them. Nations have been guided by them, many wars fought in their name, and countless die over religious-based conflicts. Our systems of law and social morals, not to mention stability of of the populace are greatly affected by it. The Crusades in the Holy Land, the Jewish Holocaust, the pilgrimage and exploration of the Americas, and many other events owe themselves to the entity we call "religion".

With the modernizing of the world, people are being interconnected, cultures mixing, some dying out, others assimilating into the global community. One may question how the advancement of humankind will affect religion, should it be kept around, and how long will it hold out, if it is to die out that is...as well as many other thoughts come to mind.

Death, agony, deceit...beauty, art, love...morals, social structures, gold, blood, control, affection, destruction, creation. All a part of how religions have played out over the many years, and how they have shaped who we stand today.

My question to you is, what do you think the world would be like had no religion ever existed?

Socially? Psychologically? Politically? Economically? Geographically? Academically? and so on...
What would the future be like if all religions were abandoned here and now? How would we have turned out without it, what events would have been altered by their absence?

Share your idea of human history without religion, describe the future we may have without it, as well as the very nature of religions and faith and their purpose throughout time.

Food for thought, have a nice day and i look forward to seeing your responses.

Originally posted by Evakian


My question to you is, what do you think the world would be like had no religion ever existed?

Personally I think it would have meant that people would have been nice to be nice and bad to be bad.

People would be united by People and broken the same way.

But i honestly feel that as is the nature of our obsession with questions and the like, its inevitable that such a thing can never have happened.

You could go back in time and stop the creation of the bible, but that would just mean all those christians/catholics/JW's etc would have founded a different religion and created a different God.

Socially through technology I hope we are striving towards a future without it. Id rather devoute a portion of my time towards a mega corporation that would reward me with things I could use as opposed to an invisiable deity that gives me nothing except a "possible" ticket to heaven.

In my view

If the world didnt have Relgion it would be a better, richer place.

If the world didnt have faith, it would be the opposite.

Good Question Evak, apologies im not educated enough to give you a truly inspirational answer.

Almost as old as civilization itself, perhaps older, religion has been a prevalent force in society.You are perhaps more accurate then than you realise. About 40,000 years ago there occurred an event refered to as "The Great Leap Forward". Although modern homo sapiens had been around for tens of millenia suddenly cave art and "useless" ornamentation (culture) and ritual burial (afterlife & religious considerations) begins. Some argue that perhaps humans discovered language itself aorund this time.

Imagine that - fully modern humans no different to you or I existing for millenia without religion, culture and possibly language (as we know it). I find that really fascinating myself. But existing is all they did - it seems that the "discovery" of religion (etc) went hand in hand with progress - firstly agriculture.

In short without religion we'd still be living quite literally like animals in the forest. However some people (*ahem* ;) ) suspect that while religion was a fantastic boot-strapping process, it is getting past its sell-by date and is now perhaps an inhibiter, not an enabler, for mankind.

That said we are nowadays (i.e. since circa 40,000 years ago) culturally disposed to religious beliefs. The only way to stamp it out would be to indeed stamp it out - like in North Korea or Orwell's 1984. Despite my goofing around in the other thread I do of course think this would be damned terrible. Personally I'd rather live in a middle eastern theocracy than North Korea.

Also I know people for whom religion gives them wings and I wouldn't want to see it taken away from them.

I think the world would become a far better place if all religions were wiped out. Rational thought would increase, and people would better think for themselves. There would be less war (more people have died in the name of Jesus Christ than any other figure in human history). There would be less conflict among the religious and non-religious. HUMAN morality would take form, with all the other ficticious ones discarded (ex/ masturbation is a sin). Plus there would be alot more free time on Sunday mornings for an early sex romp.

Religion only complicates things.

I think the world would become a far better place if all religions were wiped out. Do you mean "were wiped out" or do you really mean "naturally died away"?

Originally posted by ComicsGn
I think the world would become a far better place if all religions were wiped out. Rational thought would increase, and people would better think for themselves. There would be less war (more people have died in the name of Jesus Christ than any other figure in human history). There would be less conflict among the religious and non-religious. HUMAN morality would take form, with all the other ficticious ones discarded (ex/ masturbation is a sin). Plus there would be alot more free time on Sunday mornings for an early sex romp.

Religion only complicates things.
I think this is fairly naive. True, people would be more independent...but that wouldn't necessarily make them rational. Faithlessness is not for the timid-hearted, and a significant portion of people would seize upon "Carpe diem! No consequences in the afterlife! Let's act like a jerk and care not about others!"

Originally posted by BorgHunter
"Carpe diem! No consequences in the afterlife! Let's act like a jerk and care not about others!"

We would still have a police force, so anyone who did would be thrown in jail, and since there wouldnt be a certain relgious front taking up all the armys time at the moment they would also be on hand to help with any major breaches of peace.

Its pretty sad if most of the christian/catholic world only act kindly to others because they fear hell.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Faithlessness is not for the timid-hearted

Just because Religion is gone doesnt mean Faith is. Faith in people, faith in the technology, faith in science etc etc.

Faith - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

I believe without Relgion they would simply move their faith in different directions not disband it.

Originally posted by Blob
Do you mean "were wiped out" or do you really mean "naturally died away"?

lol *said in a manical evil dictator voice*

"yes lets start the clensing, let us clense them all"

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
lol *said in a manical evil dictator voice*

"yes lets start the clensing, let us clense them all" It's incredible how many atheists harbour such thoughts. "Religion wants to tell us how to think so should be wiped out and replaced with how I think." :rolleyes:

I have faith, but it sickens me when I think how many have died because they didn't toe the line.

Like the 7 year old Huegenot boy beheaded because they found a Bible in his parent's cottage.

The powers that be did this in the name of God.

I wonder what kind of "god" they worshipped??!!

Or the Spaniards and Aztecs, Spaniards and Incas, the Inquisition........Bloody Mary Tudor.....the Aztecs sacrificing 90,000 people a year to their sun god......

What would the world have been like? There would be more people on this planet!

The world would be much like it is today, only without hope.

Originally posted by Frogger
The world would be much like it is today, only without hope. I have no religion yet I am a hopeful and optimistic person.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk

Its pretty sad if most of the christian/catholic world only act kindly to others because they fear hell.
Whether sad or not, I can tell you from my own experiences that I was saved from a life of recklessness and violence through my faith. I dont know that I would call it a fear of hell that helps me be more kind than i used to be, but who cares how you label it if it is a force for good.




Originally posted by Lokideviluk

Just because Religion is gone doesnt mean Faith is. Faith in people, faith in the technology, faith in science etc etc.

Faith - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

I believe without Relgion they would simply move their faith in different directions not disband it. America is fast becoming a land without belief in God. I ask anyone who lives here to tell me what they believe our country has become in the last 50 years in terms of interaction between their fellow man.


I'll give an example. The other night i was driving home late in the evening. I saw a man sitting on the curb beside his smoking vehicle. I thought of pulling over and providing any help i could. Ultimately, I decided the personal risk wasnt worth an attempt at kindness. Do you think that man would have sat unattended like that 50 years ago? I dont. The reason it happens now is that we have less faith in our fellow man than years ago. There could be many reasons for this, but you all know what I think.

I don't think it requires faith or religion to "hope". As in: "I hope the next pair would be sixes". "I hope the waitress is single and might consider banging me". "I hope I will do my best tomorrow in the ball game". To me hope means: "desire for an outcome you have no possible way to manipulate or obtain with certainty". Uncertainty, if you will. If the world has no uncertainty, hope needs not exist.

Once, many years ago, I found a wallet stuffed full of twenties. It was in a purse left behind in a cart at Kroger's.
Lord knows we could have used that money, but I turned it in. I thought, "What if the person who lost it needs it more?"

I thought how I'd feel if I had lost that much money.

It wasn't fear of God, hell, or anything like that which prompted my action. It just seemed like the fair and honest thing to do.
Maybe it's just the Golden rule:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Not long ago I lost something valuable myself--a watch and money. It was returned intact, tho I never found out who it was that had done that kindness.

It was me, rendova. I returned your watch and money.

I didn't do it in expectation of a reward but if you would like to send me a little something it would be appreciated.

pm me and I will tell you where to send the money.

Originally posted by Evakian
Almost as old as civilization itself, perhaps older, religion has been a prevalent force in society. Some form of a religion has been incorporated into human culture, and it has shaped our history, government, economics, distribution of wealth, power, people, and more.

Billions have grasped onto one, finding self fulfillment in it or adhering to it for social reasons or other reasons forced upon them. Nations have been guided by them, many wars fought in their name, and countless die over religious-based conflicts. Our systems of law and social morals, not to mention stability of of the populace are greatly affected by it. The Crusades in the Holy Land, the Jewish Holocaust, the pilgrimage and exploration of the Americas, and many other events owe themselves to the entity we call "religion".

With the modernizing of the world, people are being interconnected, cultures mixing, some dying out, others assimilating into the global community. One may question how the advancement of humankind will affect religion, should it be kept around, and how long will it hold out, if it is to die out that is...as well as many other thoughts come to mind.

Death, agony, deceit...beauty, art, love...morals, social structures, gold, blood, control, affection, destruction, creation. All a part of how religions have played out over the many years, and how they have shaped who we stand today.

My question to you is, what do you think the world would be like had no religion ever existed?

Socially? Psychologically? Politically? Economically? Geographically? Academically? and so on...
What would the future be like if all religions were abandoned here and now? How would we have turned out without it, what events would have been altered by their absence?

Share your idea of human history without religion, describe the future we may have without it, as well as the very nature of religions and faith and their purpose throughout time.

Food for thought, have a nice day and i look forward to seeing your responses.

Nice post Evak. :)

I think the world would be a very different place without religion, although it would be difficult to say exactly how.

Myth making, and the religions that arise from these myths, are a product of who we are as a species. If you take away the myth making, that changes the very nature of us...how that difference would have affected history is pure conjecture. While religion was the cause of much strife throughout history, it also inspired much good. To simply remove these threads from the tapestry of history leaves a very confused picture, and indeed causes the whole thing to unravel.

Originally posted by Frogger
It was me, rendova. I returned your watch and money.

I didn't do it in expectation of a reward but if you would like to send me a little something it would be appreciated.

pm me and I will tell you where to send the money.

Bless your heart, you're a good fella!
The reward is in the mail! It's not money tho, but a nice new frog for your collection!:)

Originally posted by HaVoK
Whether sad or not, I can tell you from my own experiences that I was saved from a life of recklessness and violence through my faith. I dont know that I would call it a fear of hell that helps me be more kind than i used to be, but who cares how you label it if it is a force for good.




America is fast becoming a land without belief in God. I ask anyone who lives here to tell me what they believe our country has become in the last 50 years in terms of interaction between their fellow man.


I'll give an example. The other night i was driving home late in the evening. I saw a man sitting on the curb beside his smoking vehicle. I thought of pulling over and providing any help i could. Ultimately, I decided the personal risk wasnt worth an attempt at kindness. Do you think that man would have sat unattended like that 50 years ago? I dont. The reason it happens now is that we have less faith in our fellow man than years ago. There could be many reasons for this, but you all know what I think.

Yes, kinda like hitchhikers or hitchhiking. It used to be safe to offer a ride. Now, it's probably suicide. I see many people walking along with no ride. Many times I want to stop. but it's just too unsafe anymore. This is truly sad.

I used to hitch hike and I used to pick up hitch hikers. I no longer would consider doing either.

I think that the American people have lost a bit of the familial feeling they used to have. Not that long ago we all felt like Americans, distant relatives, all connected in some way. You would no more refuse to give a ride to the man standing beside a broken down car than you would refuse a ride to a distant cousin.

That feeling no longer exists. There is no longer a true American identity that brings us all together. That identity started dying at the time of the Viet Nam War and its death has been accelerating ever since.

At one time people came to this country planning on spending the rest of their lives here. They did their best to assimilate and become part of the American family. They learned the language, embraced the customs, considered themselves non-hyphenated Americans.

Today people come here and expect the country to cater to them, to carry on business in their language (you must speak Spanish to work for the Miami/Dade government), to celebrate their holidays (many American schools have Cinqo de Mayo celebrations, a Mexican holiday), to observe their customs and forget our own (Christmas decorations are no longer allowed in public areas and snowmen and pine trees are considered religious symbols equal to a menorah or star and crescent). People vote using Spanish, Mandarin, and Haitian language ballots. In New York State standardized state test are written in English, Spanish, Mandarin, Russian, Haitian, Tagalog, and upon request in other languages.

The sameness that bound us together as Americans is no longer there. America is in danger of becoming a geographical area rather than the concept it once was. Going to America no longer means going somewhere and becoming a new person. Now it simply means going to a certain place on a map.

Originally posted by Frogger
Today people come here and expect the country to cater to them,

Do you give your illegal immigrants houses, living allowances, free health care and other helpful benefits all because they managed to ignore the rules too?

If its any consilation, I still consider America to be what is roughly depicted in movies, "The place of dreams, where anything is possible"

Posted by Lokideviluk

Do you give your illegal immigrants houses, living allowances, free health care and other helpful benefits all because they managed to ignore the rules too?

Yes, for some reason the word illegal is ignored when it comes to benefits. The children of illegal immigrants place an unreasonable burden on some school districts. The illegal immigrants pay no taxes and yet their children are educated for free. They are also elligible for free school breakfast and lunch. It is even against the law for school districts to report illelgal immigrants to the government.

Hospitals in my part of the country charge an additional fee for hospital stays to help defray the cost of treating illegal immigrants.

There are no penalties attached to being an illegal immigrant.

Originally posted by Frogger
I used to hitch hike and I used to pick up hitch hikers. I no longer would consider doing either.

I think that the American people have lost a bit of the familial feeling they used to have. Not that long ago we all felt like Americans, distant relatives, all connected in some way. You would no more refuse to give a ride to the man standing beside a broken down car than you would refuse a ride to a distant cousin.

That feeling no longer exists. There is no longer a true American identity that brings us all together. That identity started dying at the time of the Viet Nam War and its death has been accelerating ever since.

At one time people came to this country planning on spending the rest of their lives here. They did their best to assimilate and become part of the American family. They learned the language, embraced the customs, considered themselves non-hyphenated Americans.

Today people come here and expect the country to cater to them, to carry on business in their language (you must speak Spanish to work for the Miami/Dade government), to celebrate their holidays (many American schools have Cinqo de Mayo celebrations, a Mexican holiday), to observe their customs and forget our own (Christmas decorations are no longer allowed in public areas and snowmen and pine trees are considered religious symbols equal to a menorah or star and crescent). People vote using Spanish, Mandarin, and Haitian language ballots. In New York State standardized state test are written in English, Spanish, Mandarin, Russian, Haitian, Tagalog, and upon request in other languages.

The sameness that bound us together as Americans is no longer there. America is in danger of becoming a geographical area rather than the concept it once was. Going to America no longer means going somewhere and becoming a new person. Now it simply means going to a certain place on a map.

Yes, very true. It bothers me, the fact that immigrants, illegal or otherwise, refuse to learn our language. They make no attempt to do so---instructions for gadgets are now 9,000 pages long as they're written in every language under the sun. All the other immigrants learned English! What makes these people so special?

Anothe gripe--the fact that the holidays at school are no longer called "Christmas " vacation or "Easter" break--now it's the "winter" holiday or "spring" break. What is this? Most people here do celebrate Christmas! Is this a PROBLEM for some people?

And what's with the no longer singing "religious" carols at the schools? Now they make the kids sing truly inane songs like "Jingle Bell Rock" or other nonsense.

And stores telling their help NOT to wish a customer a "Merry Christmas" are beneath contempt! What are they supposed to say? "Have a happy winter holiday"? or--"Have a good one"?

This is getting OLD.

rendova,

People used to come here to become Americans. They left their old world for the new and better world they found here. Today people come simply for the economic opportunities. They have no desire or plan to become American.



Regarding the frog you sent me for my collection. I do collect frogs and have a couple hundred of them. I even have real ones in my koi pond.

Originally posted by Frogger




Regarding the frog you sent me for my collection. I do collect frogs and have a couple hundred of them. I even have real ones in my koi pond. [/B]

My son found a nice big fat toad and put it in our turtle pond, thinking the turtle was lonely.

The turtle welcomed his new friend by promptly eating his leg off.

We rescued the toad and weeks later found that he had grown another leg.

Moral:
Turtles and toads don't mix.

It wasn't fear of God, hell, or anything like that which prompted my action. It just seemed like the fair and honest thing to do.
This more or less sums up my belief. We don't need religion to guide our collective moral compass... all we need is a sense of decency. And how hard is that really?

(As for my earlier comment about wiping out religion, I was suggesting that it be phased out of society slowly, not literally "cleansed". We shouldn't just abolish religion overnight. Just thought I'd clarify.)

Originally posted by ComicsGn
This more or less sums up my belief. We don't need religion to guide our collective moral compass... all we need is a sense of decency. And how hard is that really?

Not difficult at all for most people. Martin Luther deals with a very similar question in, Wider die himmlischen Propheten, where he cites I Timothy I:9 and Acts XVI:10 to show that man is no longer subject to the laws of Moses. Luther states that the Law is written upon the heart of every man. In addition to being religious law, it is also natural law. What he does is praise Moses and the Ten Commandments for the way they present the natural law. "Nowhere are the natural laws so excellently and systematically presented as in Moses."

It is very possible to have a peaceful, well ordered world without religion. The purpose of religion is not simply to order the world. If that were its only purpose there would be no need for religion. The major purpose of religion is to clarify and codify man's relationship to God and God's relationship to man.

Originally posted by Frogger
The major purpose of religion is to clarify and codify man's relationship to God and God's relationship to man.

Rather hard to codify something we know little or nothing about.

Id say the purpose of Religion is to give those whom need it, hope and direction.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Do you give your illegal immigrants houses, living allowances, free health care and other helpful benefits all because they managed to ignore the rules too?

All that and the kitchen sink.

If its any consilation, I still consider America to be what is roughly depicted in movies, "The place of dreams, where anything is possible"

:flowers: That means quite alot coming from a European in 2005. But remember, we wouldn't be here without you Brits :).

The major purpose of religion is to clarify and codify man's relationship to God and God's relationship to man.

I would say that one major reason for religion, as sad as it may be, would be to lead people. It gives common ground and a strong connection with people who might otherwise have absolutely nothing alike with each other. Throughout history, from the ziggurat to Mecca, religion has been used as a way to govern people. Morals instilled to protect the society, leaders in the magisterium appointed to guide the people, followers eager to listen and do anything for the cause...it all ties in to make a better society by controlling of the masses.

Also, as Lokidevil stated, it gives those people who need it, hope and direction. It gives them something to do with their life, gives them a sense of morality, inspires love and charitable deeds, and so on. To me personally, religions may have done some horrible things or taught ridiculous ideas in the past (or maybe even now), but their essential usage and purpose trumps that factor. It governs the people in more ways than ANY government ever could.

Originally posted by Comicsgn
This more or less sums up my belief. We don't need religion to guide our collective moral compass... all we need is a sense of decency. And how hard is that really?

Very difficult. Not everyone is able to grasp onto these concepts, and religion instills such values into them, or forces them in by pressure.

Rather hard to codify something we know little or nothing about.

I would so say, but then i can walk down to the bookstore and find shelf after shelf of theological texts. Such a rich and complex world is revealed through the philosophical writings of theologians. For as little as we may know about it, we are but human...our weaknesses manage to effect us here. We cannot grasp some concepts presented in the lofty visions of religion. This leaves everything to question, but I would say religion attempts to learn more about the human spirit and then attempts to "codify man's relationships".

People used to come here to become Americans. They left their old world for the new and better world they found here. Today people come simply for the economic opportunities. They have no desire or plan to become American.

I would say that America itself has changed, and very little of it can be blamed on immigrants. In the past, America has been looked up to as a shining example of what a nation could be. However, ever since nationalism reared its ugly head in the land of the free, America lost its idealism. How can we be welcoming if we are treating every immigrant like a criminal? America is one of the toughest countries to emigrate to. Its no wonder people lose their sense of wonder upon finally getting here. The friendliness and cheer of Americans is usually limited to their brethren, not newcomers. Its no wonder that immigrants would want to keep to themselves.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
America is one of the toughest countries to emigrate to.

Id question that a country that actively gives out 40,000 greencards a year in its lottery system is a difficult place to emigrate to.

Japan on the other hand is nigh on impossible.

Nappy,

In my opinion you are very wrong when you say, "America is one of the toughest countries to emigrate to." In the United States you havae the opportunity to become a citizen. Many countries don't offer that. Until recently immigrants to Germany found it almost impossible to obtain citizenship. Immigrants to Japan are ostracized to an extent never seen in this country. Third and fourth generation Koreans are still considered foreignors in Japan. Very few countries are as welcoming to immigrants as the United States.

Also Japan allows only one country citizinship so youd have to renounce your original birthplace. For instance Id no longer be officially British anymore. As well as that you have to show a high degre of profiency in their language since all the documentation is in Japanese with no exceptions.

Westerners emigrating have it slightly easier since there isnt the racial hate, as there is towards the koreans and certain other places.

Question, If I went to America, could I stay as long as I wanted in your country as a "guest" or "visiter" . Obivously meaning I couldnt work, claim benefits or other citizinship benefits etc

The friendliness and cheer of Americans is usually limited to their brethren, not newcomers.I understand the exception to that is having a British accent (perhaps not in Boston, I don't know though). The conservatives love us because we came to Iraq; the liberals love us for our Pythonesque quirkiness.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokideviluk
[B]Id question that a country that actively gives out 40,000 greencards a year in its lottery system is a difficult place to emigrate to. Quote.
==============================

Or, you could simply walk across the border..... ;)

Upon reflection I think you guys are right. That is an argument I pull out against people who hate illegal immigration with a passion, which always seems to be a front for racism. Mexicans find it very difficult to immigrate to the States. I was misusing it here.

Question, If I went to America, could I stay as long as I wanted in your country as a "guest" or "visiter" . Obivously meaning I couldnt work, claim benefits or other citizinship benefits etc

No, technically you would have to leave as soon as your visa expires. But you are a UK citizen, I don't think you guys need a visa to travel to the States. There are a number of countries that US citizens don't need a visa to travel to. I think those countries are limited to ones where mass exodus's of people in that country aren't likely to abuse that by flooding into the States.

I have to commend you, Nappy. It isn't always easy to admit we were in error.

I think he was originally correct. Just so you know, loki, 40,000 visas is nothing. That's how many people voted in St. Petersburg's last election, out of a million. Not only that, but those visas are high level work visas. They're for educated foreiners who come over here for high paying engineering or such jobs. The United States has a couple million illegal immigrant(About 5 to 7 million illegals total) Mexicans working odd end jobs around this country right now. The funny thing is is that if we actually tried to boot them all out, the economies of the south west would crumble.
Frankly, we need them, but the United States does not supply work visas for people who work low end jobs, only for high education jobs. It's very hard for people such as poverty striken Mexicans to immigrate into the United States because we make it hard for those kinds of people to get citizenship or job visas here.

Just in interest of spurring on debate and readressing the topic...

What historical events/wars would have happened or never happened without religion?
What political, geographic, social, economic, and intellectual achievements would have never existed without faith?
What do you believe the purpose of religion was 2000 years ago, what do you think it is now?
If religion had not existed, how would morality be preached to society in general?
Had religion been less prominent, how would that have effected the speed of modernization beginning at the Renaissance?

Merely a few questions to maintain conversation, enjoy ;)

The Crusades, the current War on Terror, World War ll, the whole Gaza strip nonsense, and many other violent acts are all tied directly or indirectly to religion, not to mention all the sacrifices made by the ancients to their "Sun Gods" and such.

If religion had not existed, how would morality be preached to society in general?

Morality should never be preached. I think more "family-oriented" television shows and the like are appropriate ways to provide a subtle, positive influence. MTV (as Lewis Black once said, this station has destroyed music) and BET (black entertainment my ass... this station is just filled with sex and vulgarity and really makes the whole black community look bad) should certainly be destroyed. Since nearly everyone watches some television, this would be a good place to start cleaning up this shitty society. The media has a stronger effect then most people want to admit, and this would be a good step to take in the right direction.

Originally posted by ComicsGn
MTV (as Lewis Black once said, this station has destroyed music) and BET (black entertainment my ass... this station is just filled with sex and vulgarity and really makes the whole black community look bad) should certainly be destroyed. Since nearly everyone watches some television, this would be a good place to start cleaning up this shitty society. The media has a stronger effect then most people want to admit, and this would be a good step to take in the right direction.

Hell why not just revert back to the victorian age and have done with it, Chastity belts all round!! lol

Originally posted by Evakian

My question to you is, what do you think the world would be like had no religion ever existed?

Religion serves a very real purpose for the human species; it gives many people hope , and provides them a way of psychologically dealing with the fact that they're going to die.

It is, of course, a false hope. No animal is "immortal".

No canine animal.

No feline animal.

No equine animal.

And no human animal.

It is a form of mental illness, one that the homo sapien has to be propagandized over the course of many years (preferably while very young) to believe.

A very USEFUL mental imbalance for many, but still, a mental imbalance.

So, in essence, religion creates a world where humans are more contented than they'd be if they had to face the reality of their mortality..........in much the same way that small children are made happy by believeing in Santa Claus, or leprechauns, or the Tooth Fairy.

Actually, that is an excellent analogy;

Santa Claus is a pleasant myth for children; belief in an invisible omnipotent deity is a pleasant myth for adults.

Humankind, as a whole, would likely be less content absent religious belief, but that is no more to the point than saying that a drunk man is happier than a sober one.

As it regards the advancement of the species, humans would be far, far more technologically advanced today had religion never existed, simply for the fact that religion has since the dawn of man sought to restrict, repress and forbid virtually every avenue of scientific or medical research that thinking human beings have ever embarked upon.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Religion serves a very real purpose for the human species; it gives many people hope , and provides them a way of psychologically dealing with the fact that they're going to die.

It is, of course, a false hope. No animal is "immortal".

No canine animal.

No feline animal.

No equine animal.

And no human animal.

It is a form of mental illness, one that the homo sapien has to be propagandized over the course of many years (preferably while very young) to believe.

A very USEFUL mental imbalance for many, but still, a mental imbalance.
[quote]

OH MY MY MY!

[quote]

So, in essence, religion creates a world where humans are more contented than they'd be if they had to face the reality of their mortality..........in much the same way that small children are made happy by believeing in Santa Claus, or leprechauns, or the Tooth Fairy.

Actually, that is an excellent analogy;

Santa Claus is a pleasant myth for children; belief in an invisible omnipotent deity is a pleasant myth for adults.

Humankind, as a whole, would likely be less content absent religious belief, but that is no more to the point than saying that a drunk man is happier than a sober one.

As it regards the advancement of the species, humans would be far, far more technologically advanced today had religion never existed, simply for the fact that religion has since the dawn of man sought to restrict, repress and forbid virtually every avenue of scientific or medical research that thinking human beings have ever embarked upon.

Really? I think the basis of your belief lies in thinking you are nothing but flesh and blood and bone. If that's true and someone dreams at night and sees things in that dream who's looking at those things in the dream? It's not your flesh - your eyes are closed. It's not your bones and it's certainly not your blood. So who's looking at or seeing what's in the dream?

Upon reflection I think you guys are right. That is an argument I pull out against people who hate illegal immigration with a passion, which always seems to be a front for racism. Napsterbater

It might be a front for racism if people were only against the illegal immigration of Mexicans, but that is not usually the case. Those who are against illegal immigration are against all illegal immigration. I am against all illeagal immigration, be it from Mexico, Canada, Ireland, Great Britain or any other country. There are procedures for entering this country legally and they should be followed. ALL illegal immigrants should be deported and our borders, not only our physical borders, but our airports and shipping ports ought to be made more secure.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Really? I think the basis of your belief lies in thinking you are nothing but flesh and blood and bone. If that's true and someone dreams at night and sees things in that dream who's looking at those things in the dream? It's not your flesh - your eyes are closed. It's not your bones and it's certainly not your blood. So who's looking at or seeing what's in the dream?

The basic idea is as follows: activation patterns are shifting and connections are being made and unmade constantly in our brains, forming the physical basis for our minds. There is a whole continuum in the making of connections that we subsequently experience as mental functioning. At one end of the continuum is focused waking activity, such as when we are doing an arithmetic problem or chasing down a fly ball in the outfield. Here our mental functioning is focused, linear and well-bounded. When we move from focused waking to looser waking thought--reverie, daydreaming and finally dreaming--mental activity becomes less focused, looser, more global and more imagistic. Dreaming is the far end of this continuum: the state in which we make connections most loosely

Quoted from - http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=00072867-D925-1F0E-97AE80A84189EEDF&catID=3&chanID=sa005

Our minds are complicated and as yet there is still a great great deal of information we need to discover about the workings and reasons behind its features and behaviour.

Lack of understanding doesnt mean God newdsagent3.

Originally posted by Frogger
There are procedures for entering this country legally and they should be followed. ALL illegal immigrants should be deported and our borders, not only our physical borders, but our airports and shipping ports ought to be made more secure.

You can understand their prediciment though, and this is why in fairness I do not blame the immigrants themselves, since if I were in the kind of living conditions most of them are in and knew of a place where things would be better, Id get there.

I blame the governments, border patrols and the like for not properlly tackeling the situation and England whilst I guess tried to be humanitarian to them, simply gave too much too quickly and needs to seriously clamp down else RaceWars will break out for sure.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Lack of understanding doesnt mean God newdsagent3. That's the crux of the matter. The common theist argument that "you can't reject god unless you have all the answers for anything and everything" is a dud. One is at liberty to consider the god hypothesis to be incoherent and that the mysteries of life remain unanswered.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
The basic idea is as follows: activation patterns are shifting and connections are being made and unmade constantly in our brains, forming the physical basis for our minds. There is a whole continuum in the making of connections that we subsequently experience as mental functioning. At one end of the continuum is focused waking activity, such as when we are doing an arithmetic problem or chasing down a fly ball in the outfield. Here our mental functioning is focused, linear and well-bounded. When we move from focused waking to looser waking thought--reverie, daydreaming and finally dreaming--mental activity becomes less focused, looser, more global and more imagistic. Dreaming is the far end of this continuum: the state in which we make connections most loosely

Quoted from - http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=00072867-D925-1F0E-97AE80A84189EEDF&catID=3&chanID=sa005

Our minds are complicated and as yet there is still a great great deal of information we need to discover about the workings and reasons behind its features and behaviour. [quote]

Well you did a fine job of dodging the question - who's looking at the things pictured in your dreams?




Lack of understanding doesnt mean God newdsagent3.

For clarity you might want to edit your post so it doesnt look like you just quoted my whole text and added nothing.

Originally posted by newdsagent3


Well you did a fine job of dodging the question - who's looking at the things pictured in your dreams?



I am looking at those things, for exactly the same reason that I can see things when i close my eyes. Our biological profile is complex, yes, but just because you personally dont understand it doesnt mean that God exists.

I will look and find for you the exact explanation as to why when our eyes are closed we can still see images in a consious state, as the article i quoted details why it happens in dreams.

It might be a front for racism if people were only against the illegal immigration of Mexicans, but that is not usually the case. Those who are against illegal immigration are against all illegal immigration.

I don't find too many people that are well-informed on that point. I've never heard a person complain about Irish immigrants, or Canadian immigrants, or even German immigrants, which we have quite a few of in this country, illegal or no. It's almost as if only white people are allowed to immigrate here and follow the American Dream(TM). Problem is, most of the same arguments that people use against illegal immigration are also valid against legal immigration. Many people are against immigration, period, even if they say they are only against legal immigration.

I really don't think the security argument washes. One can spend all the money on security in the world, and it won't make it much harder for people to attack the United States. At best you can only protect a few high-profile targets, leaving other high-profile targets (the equivalent of) unsecured. The United States simply does not have the manpower or the ability to deport all of our illegals, (read: Mexicans) or to keep them from entering the country. Some illegals have been here for years, it would be inhumane to deport them over some small matter of paperwork, especially if they aren't causing any problems. I don't see how claiming that all illegal immigrants need to be deported actually means anything, other than to make you look better to the right-wingers. Or saying that our borders need to be secured. It just isn't possible, barring a Berlin-style wall. Immigrants will just find another way.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
For clarity you might want to edit your post so it doesnt look like you just quoted my whole text and added nothing.

"Excuse me, please" says newdsagent3


I am looking at those things, for exactly the same reason that I can see things when i close my eyes. Our biological profile is complex, yes, but just because you personally dont understand it doesnt mean that God exists.

I will look and find for you the exact explanation as to why when our eyes are closed we can still see images in a consious state, as the article i quoted details why it happens in dreams.

I never said it proves God exists - my point is we are more than flesh and blood and bone as you presume when you say there is nothing but the grave when we die. We are seeing images when we close our eyes and when we dream and the essence that sees them is the us or you or I. The individual himself. :flowers:

Fair enough, You believe in spirits/souls, I dont. You cant prove they exist as I cant prove they dont. Null argument.

Saying anything along the lines of, "But its soo meaningful/deep/complex/vague/mysterious/etc so it must be our spirit/soul" doesnt count as proof.

I never said it proves God exists - my point is we are more than flesh and blood and bone as you presume when you say there is nothing but the grave when we die. We are seeing images when we close our eyes and when we dream and the essence that sees them is the us or you or I. The individual himself.
Of course we're more than flesh and blood and bone. Flesh is the layer covering the bones and blood runs through the body. Under that happens to be organs(not considered part of your flesh) and then there's the brain. Which happens to be made up of neurons which use electricity to operate. These neurons "store"information(not in one neuron(we don't know how)). Everything you see, hear, taste and feel is more than the direct neural information, it is stored then processed to compare with previously stored information. The cerebral cortex is made up of multiple areas that handle certain things and is considered the conscious part of your brain. Any thought process goes through there as processing stored information and extrapolating for current data input. When dreaming electrical pulses travel throughout your brain and sending previously stored data to be once again processed with other data pretty much randomly extracted. You don't need eyes to understand visual input, though you did need to have once gotten stored data from the past to relate that visual input to in order for the brain to not just dump it. Actual data from senses aren't the majority of what you "see", it's your brain's interpretation of it. Therefore, what you're seeing is pretty much what you always see, processed information.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I never said it proves God exists - my point is we are more than flesh and blood and bone as you presume when you say there is nothing but the grave when we die. We are seeing images when we close our eyes and when we dream and the essence that sees them is the us or you or I. The individual himself. I did it agin, huh -newds.

This is by Blibbob:

Of course we're more than flesh and blood and bone. Flesh is the layer covering the bones and blood runs through the body. Under that happens to be organs(not considered part of your flesh) and then there's the brain. Which happens to be made up of neurons which use electricity to operate. These neurons "store"information(not in one neuron(we don't know how)). Everything you see, hear, taste and feel is more than the direct neural information, it is stored then processed to compare with previously stored information. The cerebral cortex is made up of multiple areas that handle certain things and is considered the conscious part of your brain. Any thought process goes through there as processing stored information and extrapolating for current data input. When dreaming electrical pulses travel throughout your brain and sending previously stored data to be once again processed with other data pretty much randomly extracted. You don't need eyes to understand visual input, though you did need to have once gotten stored data from the past to relate that visual input to in order for the brain to not just dump it. Actual data from senses aren't the majority of what you "see", it's your brain's interpretation of it. Therefore, what you're seeing is pretty much what you always see, processed information.

Here I thought I was communicating with Lokideviluk - Blibbob you're the reason I gave up physics - :bombout:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by newdsagent3
[B]Here I thought I was communicating with Lokideviluk - Blibbob you're the reason I gave up physics -
========================================

This is not a private chat room.
Anyone and everyone, has the right to join a conversation when they wish to.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE]Originally posted by newdsagent3
[B]Here I thought I was communicating with Lokideviluk - Blibbob you're the reason I gave up physics -
========================================

This is not a private chat room.
Anyone and everyone, has the right to join a conversation when they wish to.

I knew that. :)

Napsterbater, Illegal Mexicans crossing the border is not that great a problem here in New York. The two largest groups of illegal aliens are the Irish and the Chinese, with Russians running pretty high also.

When an illegal if found to have deplaned at Kennedy Airport, he is taken to a judge who gives him an appearance ticket and tells him to return to court at a later date, usually in about a month. The guy leaves, enters the underground economy and never shows up at court.

I think the guy shouldn't even be allowed to leave the disembarkation area. He should be turned around, placed back on the plane he arrived on and sent back to where he came from.

Don't most people apply for visas in the country they are visiting? Or, when visiting the States, do they have to apply for their visa in their home country?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Don't most people apply for visas in the country they are visiting? Or, when visiting the States, do they have to apply for their visa in their home country?

You could probably do both since the Greencard lottery is done out of state whilst I guess visa's for newly weds probably takes place in side the US

As I read this thread I find the biggest base to argue against religion is that religion itself is corrupt enough to start wars and kill the innocent. Some may recall the holy crusades in the 1100's. Others may bring up various accounts where in secs fight over holy land or try to use violence to force others into their beliefs.
So you say with out religion these people would have nothing to fight or kill over.

I believe people are people and we will make our own reasons to fight and kill over, regardless.
What reason did Hitler have for killing countless millions?
Why did Stalin kill millions of his own people?
Why did the leaders of countries like Japan and China do the same thing as Stalin?
Beliefs of any kind, religious or not can be damaging to man kind.
As long as man can think, he can think of reasons why he should be destructive. If peace and harmony is your true goal and you wish to do it with out religion then man must first lose free will. However many a war was fought to preserve mans free will, so that the freedom to act upon our own thoughts and conjecture may be maintained.

We've read in the Bible that man is a sinner, he's lawless, he transgresses Gods' instructions on how to live rightly in Gods' eyes. I believe it. I don't think Hitler or Stalin or Pancho Villa(?sp) or Saddam Hussien or maybe even George Bush believe God/Jesus when He said to love God with all your heart
and your neighbor as yourself. :thumbs: Man is supposed to subdue the earth not kill it or each other.

See to me thats different. Faith comes from within. I don't consider it religion. religion can be taken away. Faith cannot. I don't know. Does that make me religious?

Originally posted by Ansem
See to me thats different. Faith comes from within. I don't consider it religion. religion can be taken away. Faith cannot. I don't know. Does that make me religious?

Religious - the word comes from the latin word 'regilare' (sp?) it means to bind together or tie fast. I think humble, gentle, kind thinking folks have that tie to each other but I think it's called liberalism now.

[/QUOTE]In short without religion we'd still be living quite literally like animals in the forest

That is an outrageous statement! Man went far beyong that point even berfor any religions were established.

Christianity for one was one of the most barbaric & often evil forces on the face earth for eons. All you need to do is read the scriptures to find proof of that.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob
You are perhaps more accurate then than you realise. About 40,000 years ago there occurred an event refered to as "The Great Leap Forward". Although modern homo sapiens had been around for tens of millenia suddenly cave art and "useless" ornamentation (culture) and ritual burial (afterlife & religious considerations) begins. Some argue that perhaps humans discovered language itself aorund this time.

Imagine that - fully modern humans no different to you or I existing for millenia without religion, culture and possibly language (as we know it). I find that really fascinating myself. But existing is all they did - it seems that the "discovery" of religion (etc) went hand in hand with progress - firstly agriculture.

In short without religion we'd still be living quite literally like animals in the forest. However some people (*ahem* ;) ) suspect that while religion was a fantastic boot-strapping process, it is getting past its sell-by date and is now perhaps an inhibiter, not an enabler, for mankind.

That said we are nowadays (i.e. since circa 40,000 years ago) culturally disposed to religious beliefs. The only way to stamp it out would be to indeed stamp it out - like in North Korea or Orwell's 1984. Despite my goofing around in the other thread I do of course think this would be damned terrible. Personally I'd rather live in a middle eastern theocracy than North Korea.

Also I know people for whom religion gives them wings and I wouldn't want to see it taken away from them.

Originally posted by Blob
In short without religion we'd still be living quite literally like animals in the forest

That is an outrageous statement!Nice to meet you too.

Man went far beyong that point even berfor any religions were established.How do you know that?

Christianity for one was one of the most barbaric & often evil forces on the face earth for eons. All you need to do is read the scriptures to find proof of that.I was refering to pre-Christian religions.

All you have to do is look at the natives in South America. They do not live like animals in the forest. Far from it, they have highly defined family groups.



Originally posted by Blob
Nice to meet you too.

How do you know that?

I was refering to pre-Christian religions.

In short without religion we'd still be living quite literally like animals in the forest No offence but that is about the most ignorant and idiotic statement I've ever heard.

Originally posted by Taji
All you have to do is look at the natives in South America. They do not live like animals in the forest. Far from it, they have highly defined family groups. They have religious beliefs. I'm talking about human beings circa +40000 years ago who did not have ritualised burials, ornamentation etc.

No offence but that is about the most ignorant and idiotic statement I've ever heard.Coming from you, that's reassuring.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
No offence but that is about the most ignorant and idiotic statement I've ever heard.

Care to explain why?
It seems you haven't opened a history book in a very long time...