This comes from Fox News and Amir Taheri and it's an example of Radical Islam spreading slowly through Europe. While out and out riots have broken out in France, other European countries also have Muslim communities who are way less than happy with their host country and could very well turn to a radical form of Islam for their own identity. This could spread, dammit.

To make a long story short, disenfranchised Muslims living in suburbs around Paris have been rioting for some 9 days now. They've been clashing with French police as well as their S.W.A.T. teams. These Muslims do NOT want to assimililate into French culture, and indeed, want all French authorities to leave their neighborhoods completely, totally alone.


Zillions of Algerian muslims had been flocking into France for decades. They've often settled into suburbs ringing Paris where they live in poverty, in small, cramped apartment that can house several generations of a single family. The unemployment rate averages 30% and, from a demographic perspective, can reach 60% amongst the younger Muslims living in these suburbs. The people living in these places can live their entire lives without needing to speak French, nor do they have to assimilate into French culture. In fact, they have rejected the culture of their host country. Theaters, dance halls, bars and such have been closed down. French citizens who have lived there have moved on to more hospitable neighborhoods. Their neighborhoods are crime ridden and there is absolutely NO police presence in these neighborhoods, none and it's been that way for years. Without a significant French presence in the suburbs ringing Paris, Muslim culture has taken root and dictates the culture in these places.


Anyway, one fine night, youths in the town of Clichy were out stealing parts off of parked cars when a women went and called the cops on them. WELL, the cops came on down to places they haven't been for years, and criminals being who they are, got offended that the cops had the audacity to come and break up their activities. So they got into a fight, a chase ensued and two youths, who went and hid from the police, ran afoul of a power pylon and got themselves electrocuted. WELL, the entire town got up in arms big time and shouting "God is Great" began rioting and it has spread to other, mostly Muslim neighborhoods. French authorities have hit back, and the Muslims hit back even harder and there have been riots for some 9 days now.


President Jacque Chirac and Premiere de Villepan are shocked and "sore" over this past weeks Muslim restlessness. They had hoped that by beating up on the U.S. and it's involvement in Iraq, they would've made a positive impression on the Muslims in France. Apparenlty, that hasn't worked. The rioters (muslims) want the French police out of their neighborhoods, their "occupied territories," they wish to run EVERYTHING in their neighborhoods themselves.

This IS a growing problem in Europe, as Muslims emmigrate to Europe and are unsuccessful at assimilating into the host country's culture. And as I've said before, there IS an element of Islamist who desire the entire world to fall under the sway of Islam. I won't say that there is a conspiracy afoot to take over France for Islam, but I WILL say that there are those out their who are now going to do their best to keep those rioting Muslims from ever assimilating into France, and those Islamic neighborhoods could very well grow like a cancer.

This could get interesting.



Paris Burning....Amir Taheri article (http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/18822)


Fox News, Muslim riots spreading (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174533,00.html)

I have been hearing for quite sometime that Middle Easterners were flooding into France in record numbers, and in general making nuisances of themselves. It will be interesting indeed to see how France deals with the problem.

France doesn't have an enormous landmass and population to absorb immigrants into. The French may be forced to leave them alone. I don't see how they could deal with it, unless they brought the military in to bring order.

If they want to run everything, let them generate their own power, dig their own landfills, cart away their own trash, grow their own food. Let's see how far they get without the necessary urban services.

Most of the Muslims in Europe are there as a result of having been citizens of former French and British colonies. When the colonies were given their freedom the people were given the option of becoming citizens of their former colonial masters. Many of them hold dual citizenship.

Those who are guilty of breaking the law should just be expelled back to the country of their origin. They do not wish to assimilate. They wish to destroy. Fine. Destroy your former homeland. The entire lot of rioters should simply be deported.

I'm sure France outlawing the Hijab in public really helped with the whole assimalation thing...

Darth, wince when did you care about France? Oh yeah, since it became something to do with being against muslims...

My God riots are stupid things. Don't people understand that wanton violence will only hurt other innocent people? Now if there were coordinated attacks on government property or police I really wouldn't have as much of a problem (assuming they had a better motivating factor as well*). But these assholes are just destroying themselves and anyone who happens to be caught nearby.

(*which there very well may be or maybe not. Events tend to just be catalysts for for a anger that has been floating under the surface for some time)

Most of the Muslims in Europe are there as a result of having been citizens of former French and British colonies. When the colonies were given their freedom the people were given the option of becoming citizens of their former colonial masters. Many of them hold dual citizenship. Good ol colonial blowback...

posted by 500lb guerilla

Darth, wince when did you care about France? Oh yeah, since it became something to do with being against muslims...


Do you think it possible that Darth might be against lawlessness rather than simply against Muslims?

Do you think it possible that Darth might be against lawlessness rather than simply against Muslims?

Not likely, give his track record lately, his use of the terms "Radical Islam" and "Muslims", instead of the religiously neutral "Arabs", or "Middle Easterners", and the inflammatory nature of his post in general. I suppose he will argue back, "We have to call a spade a spade," or some other nonsense designed to get us to hate Islam.

Well last time Darth posted anything about france it was along the "cheese eating surrender monkies" line. Something about them almost being trators for being against the Iraq war or some such. And now a sudden OMGWTF!!!1!!1!1 Paris is burning...There was a very distinct attitude shift and I can only see one underlying factor that connects the two...Especially coupled with the stuff he posted in the Israeli terrorism thread.

I consider the rioters to be radical Muslims too. This is not spontaneous rioting but a well orchestrated series of riots taking place over a long period of time and in different, unconnected locals.

They are burning cars, destroying property, firing at police and fire personel. The doused a woman with a flammable liquid and set her afire.

These are not simple, peace loving Arabs, or Middle Easterners. They are radical Muslims.

Any found to hold dual citizenship, something quite common in France, should be sent back to their country of origin. Any found to hold other country's citizenship should be deported to those countries. Any found to be French citizens only should be arrested, tried and if found guilty, jailed for long periods of time.

I consider the rioters to be radical Muslims too.

So now you too are against Islam. Don't try to hide your bigotry.

I'm no fan of Islam or any other supersitious nonsense, but these riots are clearly not about Islam. They're not equal members of French society - they're pushed to the side of mainstream French society in ghettos. That frustration builds up until it explodes. That's the normal response (unless you're a spineless liberal who whines and does nothing.)

Far from being planned, what actually happened was very different. There was tension, but absolutely no violence in reaction to the death of the two youth who died attempting to avoid the repressive police. All Muslim organizations in France called for peace and an official investigation. It was when riot police provactively marched into the suburb-ghetto where the dead youth were from, brandishing weapons and throwing insults that the violence started, according to eyewitness reports.

The information that the anti-Muslim bigot reported from Faux "news" means fuck all. The entire success of Fox "news" is the low cost in producing it, as they don't send out reporters to investigate, like, y'know, a news media would. They just spin stories and make up editorials, packaging it as "news".

Gee some responses, it's interesting to see how others percieve me, I might add.


If you pay attention to enough of my posts, you'll know that I firmly believe that there is a conflict of ideas that is happening in the Muslim world and between the Muslim and Western world. The Muslim world has fallen very far behind the Western world and the Muslims are well aware of it. There are two schools of thought as to how to solve the disparity between Muslim and Western cultures. There are Muslims who wish to take a more liberal view of their religion and wish to adopt Western ideas, cultures and practices in order to catch up with the West. And there are Muslims who wish to take a very strict view of their religion, they feel that Muslims have strayed from the teachings of Muhamad (sp?) and the Quran. Only by embracing the true teachings of Islam can the Muslims recapture the cultural and spiritual glories of centuries past. In order for Muslims to embrace the true lessions/scriptures of Islam, Western influence has to be rejected, and cast out of the Middle East. Unfortunately, in the age of air travel, radio, television the internet and so forth, it's impossible to do. SO, these radicals are out to bring Westen civilization to its knees. These are the Bin Laden types that carry out terrorist attacks, that are fueling the Palestinian Israeli conflict, that have taken power in Iran and are causing all the trouble in Iraq. When I refer to Radical Islam, Islamist, Radical Islamists, "the insurgents" the Bin Laden types, this is the group I'm referring to. I do NOT have a prejudice against ALL Muslims, but I'm aware that the West and the Islamists are at war for the hearts and minds of the rest of the world and I'm vigilent, dammit.




Darth, wince when did you care about France? Oh yeah, since it became something to do with being against muslims...


So, I'm just against muslims, guerilla? Leave it to you to take the simplest, most ignorant view of my postings. The French government, as well as other European governments, knew damn good and well that they had large populations of Muslim immigrants coming into their country and were not assimilating into the society of their host country's. The French have been vehemently opposing and thumbing their noses at America. Especially when it comes to the War on Terror. A large part of that motivation was to appease the outcast and unemployed Muslims that have been living in France. De Villepan and Chirac hoped that by beating up on America, the Muslims wouldn't go and beat up on their French neighbors. It hasn't worked, and I admit to a small sense of satisfaction in knowing that the the French government has just realized that trying to appease thugs never works. That small sense of satisfaction however, is quickly swallowed up by the knowledge that the most terrible aspects Islam has just reared its ugly head in France, and I have no idea how it's going to be dislodged.


Do you think it possible that Darth might be against lawlessness rather than simply against Muslims?

It's beyond lawlessness. The main thrust of my original posting, which never got across because I'm not the writer I wish to be, is that the French allowed zillions of foreigners into their country unchecked, who then wound up being stuffed into ghettos living in poverty, without police presence and without melding into mainstream France, wihout work, without a future. These dispossessed people wound up being easy prey for Jihadist who denounce Western culture and morality and we are seeing the results. While the riots in France are mostly unorganized and are done mainly by young kids, the motivation for those riots is a group of Muslims who have no wish to join or even tolerate French society.

My post, I wanted it to be about what happens when immigrants come into a country unchecked, what happens when immigrants become outcasts, what happens when the host government makes no effort to require that immigrants speak the language of their country and learn about their culture, history. Most importantly, it was about the arrogance of the French government thinking that by trying to make itself a "hero" to the Muslims by opposing America in the War on Terror, they can pacify their young, angry, unemployed, disopossed Muslim population. It didn't work and appeasing thugs never does. Dammit.


Well last time Darth posted anything about france it was along the "cheese eating surrender monkies" line. Something about them almost being trators for being against the Iraq war or some such.

I have been more than a little angry at the French government for their opposition to America. They did that to hamper and frustrate America as well as to try and keep their resident Arabic populations content. The birds have now come home to roost. Too bad the French had to learn of the dangers of Radical Islam the hard way. If you wonder why I keep howling about Radical Islamists, it's because I don't want what's happening in France to happen in the U.S., dammit.


Frogger, read "What's So Great About America" by Dinesh D'Souza and the articles by Amir Taheri, which are available on teh web for a more complete picture of my point of view on Radical Islamists, the Middle East and Muslims. I can never seem to do myself justice, dammit.

Red,

I'm no fan of Islam or any other supersitious nonsense, but these riots are clearly not about Islam. They're not equal members of French society - they're pushed to the side of mainstream French society in ghettos. That frustration builds up until it explodes. That's the normal response (unless you're a spineless liberal who whines and does nothing.)


Thank you for figuring out that dumping immigrants into ghettos is a good way to get riots. :rolleyes: I've also posted a link to an article by Amir Taheri who DETAILS Radical Islamist factors in the French riots. Thank you for showing that you don't bother to read links posted and would rather just blather away about how bad Fox News is and that I'm a "anti-muslim bigot." Dammit.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
So now you too are against Islam. Don't try to hide your bigotry.


Just where did I say I was anti-Islam? I said. I consider the rioters to be radical Muslims too.

There is a big difference between considering rioters, rioters who have been identified as Muslims, as radical Muslems and being anti-Islam.

You are using the tactics of the left in which anyone who dares identify certain groups of lawbreakers is tarred with the brush of bigotry. Dare to say the rioters are Muslim and you are labeled as being an anti-Islam bigot. Identify a theif as black and you are a racist. Say that a crime is committed by a woman and you are a misogynist.

It is an old trick and one that doesn't work. It is the mark of a lazy mind, a mind that cannot debate on the facts and so resorts to name calling.

Since the newspapers have identified the rioters as young Muslims I guess you consider them to be staffed by anti-Muslim bigots also.

It must be comforting to you to be able to so blithely toss labels at people. It is much easier than debating facts.

Originally posted by Frogger
Just where did I say I was anti-Islam? I said.

There is a big difference between considering rioters, rioters who have been identified as Muslims, as radical Muslems and being anti-Islam.

You are using the tactics of the left in which anyone who dares identify certain groups of lawbreakers is tarred with the brush of bigotry. Dare to say the rioters are Muslim and you are labeled as being an anti-Islam bigot. Identify a thief as black and you are a racist. Say that a crime is committed by a woman and you are a misogynist.

It is an old trick and one that doesn't work. It is the mark of a lazy mind, a mind that cannot debate on the facts and so resorts to name calling.

Since the newspapers have identified the rioters as young Muslims I guess you consider them to be staffed by anti-Muslim bigots also.

It must be comforting to you to be able to so blithely toss labels at people. It is much easier than debating facts.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Red,
Thank you for figuring out that dumping immigrants into ghettos is a good way to get riots. :rolleyes: I've also posted a link to an article by Amir Taheri who DETAILS Radical Islamist factors in the French riots. Thank you for showing that you don't bother to read links posted and would rather just blather away about how bad Fox News is and that I'm a "anti-muslim bigot." Dammit.

You're right. Who cares about eyewitness reports when we could listen to Faux News spin. I'm sure in their studios in America they must have a good idea of what's REALLY going on, and not what the people who are there actually say.

Let's see, there's almost no evidence this has anything to do with Islamism, and so far is a variety of ethnic groups revolting because they're fed up with being part of an underclass. And you want to charactarize this as, what was your term? Oh yeah, "radical muslims". This was the same tactic used against African Americans, in standing up for themselves they were "radical negroes" and "commies".

Is every riot by White Christians described as a "crusade"? That's the kind of childish and simplistic spin you're putting on this.

When you label people's entire behavior and outlook as one way, despite how they act or what they say, even if it contradicts your claim, you are a bigot.

I'm the biggest enemy of Islamism you'll ever meet. The spark that ignited the Islamist project was killing communists, and it was aided by the USA.

You are using the tactics of the left in which anyone who dares identify certain groups of lawbreakers is tarred with the brush of bigotry. Dare to say the rioters are Muslim and you are labeled as being an anti-Islam bigot. Identify a theif as black and you are a racist. Say that a crime is committed by a woman and you are a misogynist.

I am not afraid to call them Middle Easterners. There is no reason to think that these people are Islamists. Next thing you will be saying that Al Qaeda (fear, terr'rr, terr'rr, fear, vote for me!) has ties to guerilla fighters in France trying to take down the Western World! They may practice Islam, but that doesn't make them the same as the suicide bombers.

Yep, You're right, Nappy. They're just plain old Middle Easterners. No radical Moslems there.

Read this from Newsweek and tell me again how they aren't extremist radicals.

Rage on Rue Picasso
Will the riots swell the ranks of jihadists in Europe?

Jack Guez Nov. 14, 2005 issue -

Word of the deaths spread quickly through Clichy-sous-Bois, a grim collection of housing projects an hour by train and bus from the center of Paris. Two teenage boys had been electrocuted while trying to hide near a transformer the night of Oct. 27. Rumor said they were running from police. Soon, dozens of angry young men came from the soulless high-rises looking for cops to fight and cars to burn on streets named, as it happens, after heroes of French culture: boulevard Emile Zola, allee Albert Camus, rue Picasso. Dead white men. It's Baghdad here, the rioters shouted. Night after night last week, rage spread through the ghettos that ring Paris, then beyond to every corner of France. When a tear-gas canister exploded near a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois on the fourth violent evening, a new cry went up.

"Now this is war," said one of the vandals. Others cried "jihad."

Darths assertion that a disenfranchised immigrat population is controling Frances Global politics is quite laughable. While Israelis and ex-Cubans may strangle American politicians immigrants had nothing to do with Frances position. . France oppossed the war for the monetary gain to be made through dealing with Saddam for oil. And possibly because this war was illegal and based on pure lies.

So Darth have you found those WMD's yet?

BTW Darth your a racist POS because of stuff like this (from the Israeli thread)

You disgust me, guerilla, you know that? Never mind the kinds of brutality the Palestinians have heaped upon the Iraelis, or that every single country in the Middle East is out to destroy Israel and a couple have tried, or the fact it seems one of the principle purposes of the U.N. is to condemn Israel or the fact that Israel got formed because the Jews who survived the Holocaust no longer wanted to live upon the tender mercies of other countries or the fact that Jews have historically been beaten, raped, murdered, banished, robbed and accused of just about every conspiracy there is. And woe betide them when they have the utter gall to go and do something to defend themselves.
You promote Israeli terrorism because you paint all palistinians as terrorists and deserving of it. Don't try to deny it. Its there in Black and white. Sure extremism may have triggered your racism but it in no way excuses it. You even go so far as to justify it because of actions the Germans took...you're pathetic.

Gee Guerilla,

Did I touch a nerve? First it was racist bigot, now it's "a racist POS." Your criteria for posting seems to be only "how does this make Bush look bad," or "how can I highlight what a truly rotten Nation Israel is (though admittedly THAT is a distant second), that seems to be the only thing that motivates you, so I called you down for it. Call me names all you want, but it's not going to hurt me. I KNOW I'm not a racist, I KNOW I'm right about what's happening in the Muslim world. Sincerity in one's belief's can inure one to insult.


You promote Israeli terrorism because you paint all palistinians as terrorists and deserving of it.

And you go and post a crap piece on how the Israelis are using sonic booms to terrorize the Palestinians as if the Palestinians were all home baking cookies and out of the blue the Israelis decide to scare the hell out of them.

As IF various Middle Eastern government haven't tried to destroy Israel right from the get go. As IF the Palestinians aren't taught hatred of Israel and the U.S. right from the cradle. As if Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran don't focus the rage of their own populace's onto Israel to cover their own brutal, incompetent dictatorships. As if the "peace process" just means that Israel has to cede more land, and then the "peace process" gets derailed and all that has happened is Israel just loses more land. The Palestinians are being used as a pawn to extinguish Israel, the U.N. and European countries are afraid of angering the Jihadists to defend Israel at all, and YOU are a useful idiot (Stalin's words for Communist apologists in the West, but the same principle applies here) for denouncing only Israeli attrocities, dammit.



Darths assertion that a disenfranchised immigrat population is controling Frances Global politics is quite laughable. While Israelis and ex-Cubans may strangle American politicians immigrants had nothing to do with Frances position.

Baloney! The French were well aware that they had a problem on their hands, and they were hoping that, by beating up on America, they would look heroic to the Muslims. It didnt' work. It didn't work in Spain and it ain't working in France, dammit.

France oppossed the war for the monetary gain to be made through dealing with Saddam for oil.


And, going by your ascertions, France was as pure as the wind driven snow. The truly sad, disgusting part of that little quote of yours is that YOU wanted Bush to "listen" to the French when it came to invading Iraq. YOU wanted Bush to listen to a corrupt government fearful of their own idigenous, angry Muslims for advice on how to deal with TERRORISM!??! Good god, man, you can't be serious!


Red and Napsterbater,

Thank you for showing me you did NOT read the links I posted and would rather take pot shots than to learn something new. The Amir Taheri link DETAILS the riots in France, who is rioting and the implications, which you haven't bothered to read, dammit.



So Darth have you found those WMD's yet?


So, guerilla, stil dumb enough to believe Saddam's word that he wasn't hiding his WMDs?

Yep, You're right, Nappy. They're just plain old Middle Easterners. No radical Moslems there.

A bunch of kids yelling "Jihad!" does not an Islamist movement make. Once they start killing themselves in suicide attacks, let me know.

So, guerilla, stil dumb enough to believe Saddam's word that he wasn't hiding his WMDs?

No. They are in Syria now! Let's go bomb them! Can't find them there? Well, they shipped them over to North Korea. Bomb em! Oh wait, they're in China now...

Thank you for showing me you did NOT read the links I posted and would rather take pot shots than to learn something new.

I suppose it is my failure to "learn something new" that keeps me from hating Islam.

I suppose it is my failure to "learn something new" that keeps me from hating Islam.


Thank you for showing me the depths of your refusal to learn. IF you had carefully read my posts, you'd know that I don't "hate" Islam. I (carefully!) explained that the Muslims have fallen behind the West and the two competing strategies for catching up and I've outlined which side I'm on, but either you didn't bother to read my post, or refused to "learn something new." Which is a practice that shoudn't be encouraged, dammit.

IF you had carefully read my posts, you'd know that I don't "hate" Islam.

Nobody admits to bigotry.

Long post but recaps the events that lead to all this stuff:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

State Violence in Clichy Sous Bois : An Eyewitness Account
Clichy-sous-Bois : lawlessness or injustice?
by Antoine Germa

I have been in and out of Clichy since Saturday morning, working with a France-Inter reporter on a series of reports about the situation in Clichy-sous-Bois. The city was “in arms” from the night of Thursday October 27th to the night of Monday October 30th.

I am writing what I have seen, heard, understood, and been told.

1. Two dead teenagers (Zyad and Bounna, 17 and 15 years old, from college #3) do seem to have been chased by the police, contrary to the official version which denied that there was any pursuit (the Sarkozy/Parquet version). Why else would they go in that alleyway and climb a wall to hide in a power substation when they lived so close by?

2. The ten young people who were playing soccer ran away from the police who were checking people’s i.d. because some of them did not have proper papers (amongst these, the third electrocuted youth, Metin, was in the process of having his case regularized). They were never involved in any theft from the site as the official version claimed, but that did not stop these claims from being repeated by [Prime Minister Dominique] de Villepin on Thursday. Nobody stands by these claims today, as the prosecutor from Bobigny acknowledged Saturday that it was a simple i.d. check. The youths who were arrested were released within an hour, more proof that the police had nothing on them. Metin, suffering from severe burns, “does not remember anything” according to the official version… is this silence connected to his legal status?

3. All sorts of rumours began to circulate in the city : Why are the police lying? What are they hiding? People spontaneously began to riot on Thursday, on Friday they were reinforced by the “older ones”. The first targets were: the post office (many cars burnt), the fire station (a fire truck demolished), bus shelters, a school (set on fire). The rioting became particularly violent on Friday (people throwing rocks and firebombs and shooting at police cars) This took place in the big thoroughfares that run through the Chene pointu neighbourhood (close to Pama). Many cars were set on fire, their burnt out shells were still littering the streets Saturday morning.

Saturday morning there was a silent march organized by religious associations and the mosques. There were appeals for calm. All eyes were on the justice system and [Minister of Public Security Nicolas] Sarkozy was singled out for criticism. Moslem community institutions, city officials and activists were visibly united, and seemed to have the situation under control. There were slightly more than a thousand participants. Visibly tired and emotional, the Socialist Mayor of Clichy, Claude Dilain, who seems to enjoy real support amongst the population of Clichy (including the youth), made an official request to Sarkozy to open an investigation into the deaths of the two teenagers. Coming out of a meeting at the city hall after the march, the lawyer for the victims’ families announced that he would be filing a complaint in order to expose the circumstances in which they died. The police were nowhere to be seen and all seemed calm that day.

Saturday night, as the fast was broken (around 6:30pm), 400 riot police – including some who came from Chalon s/saone – appeared all over the Chene pointu neighbourhood. As usual, they were encircling – “closing off” – the neighbourhood. The police are ridiculous : joggng in step, like Roman legionnaires, shields raised and flash-guns in hand, they went street by street as if fighting invisible enemies.

At that time of day everybody is eating and nobody stays outside. So why such a show of force at a time when the streets are unusually quiet? “Provocation” is the answer given by everyone from the area I asked. This is the recurring theme since Friday night.

After an hour, some young people go outside and stand in front of the police: everyone expects a confrontation. How does the police strategy make ay sense, except in terms of “marking their territory”, “restoring order” in the most primitive and macho way possible.

Several different eyewitness accounts and recordings clearly show that the police wanted to have it out with the youths: calling out racist insults, challenging them to fight, posturing. I went to the Bousquets mosque at 9pm: it was overflowing (roughly 1200-1300 people), as this was the Night of Destiny that is traditionally spent in the mosque. Several cars and garbage cans had already been set alight, and young people were here seeking refuge in this sanctuary in the middle of the neighbourhood. Nevertheless, there was a mood of solemn contemplation, and from the beginning the imams had played an important role in restoring the peace.

Despite the police provocations, Saturday night seemed less violent. Was this because of the appeals to calm repeated all day long? Was this due to the importance of the Night of Destiny at this point in Ramadan?

4. Sunday night, I receive an outraged and dismayed telephone call from Ibrahim, the son of an imam, at 10:55pm. He tells me that while people were praying the police gassed the de Bousquets mosque. He tells me that some women – who were in the section reserved for them – almost passed out. As they left they were met with insults from the forces of law and order: “whore, bitch…” Attempts to speak to the police proved futile, those who dared to try were ordered to “Move on!” and risked being wounded with a flash-ball. Ibrahim asks me to come to be a witness but I am not in Clichy at the time.

This news seems beyond belief. How can they attack a religious gathering? Why gas the mosque when (apart from the mayor) the religious authorities have been the only ones capable of calming things down? Things are now ready to explode; new confrontations break out and more cars are set on fire: positions are becoming more and more radical, especially as the police deny that they used tear gas in the mosque. They say the type of grenade that was used is not the kind issued to police. From this point on there are two issues: the deaths of the teenagers and the attack on the mosque.

It is at this point that Sarkozy appears on television defending and justifying the police actions in Clichy, once again calling for « zero tolerance » : one hand the iron fist, the other hand… nothing, except perhaps the invisible hand of the market.

5. Monday morning : the mood is tense. At 11am, Sarkozy meets with the security forces at the de Bobigny police station, offering them his congratulations and support. The official version of the gas attack on the mosque has been somewhat modified over night. It turns out the kind of grenade used was indeed the sort issued to police, but there are still some doubts: just who could have thrown the grenades into the mosque? Yet again, the official version is completely disconnected from reality.

At 1pm I arrive at Chene Pontu to watch the news on TV with the Imam and his family: the way the media is covering events is another one of the things people have complained about since the “riots” began. People here feel that the media are the representatives of the establishment, that they are spreading lies, and more than anything else that they are helping to stigmatize people who live in these working class neighbourhoods.

And yet, one can hear a change: the newspapers and the television channels are voicing some criticisms. They are beginning to question the official version of how the two kids died and the mosque was gassed.

At 2pm here is a press conference at the Bousquets mosque. A video of the attack was caught by on a cell phone camera. It is shown to many reporters: it shows the panic as the worshippers were gassed. Then the officials spoke, firmly, with emotion, demanding a judicial inquiry and an official apology. At the heart of these demands is the fact that people of different beliefs should be treated equally. The mosque president, Mr. Brouhout, who is close to the UMP, was strikingly able to calm people down. Bouna’s older brother told journalists that he would not meet with Sarkozy, who he feels is “incompetent”; instead, along with Zyad’s family he demands a meeting with the Prime Minister. There is a consensus that the police must leave the neighbourhood in order for things to calm down.

Around this press conference, community activists are highlighting the socio-economic causes behind these events. Clichy is one of the poorest municipalities in France and community groups have less and less money to work with. Things are tense as the press conference draws to a close: young people are sharing their stories, women are explaining what they experienced and saw first hand. A common theme in all these accounts is anger at the police, who are carrying out more and more foolish – and often illegal – “muscular” interventions, and at the authorities in the ministry who are not condemning the gas attack against the mosque. The religious authorities, visibly shaken by what happened the night before, slowly manage to take control of the situation.

Everyone is nervously waiting for nightfall. At 7pm representatives of the mosque and the police reach an agreement: some youths are designated mediators in order to “calm” the more hot-headed ones and prevent further confrontations with police. This is not a new idea: indeed, some young people had suggested this Saturday, but the police were not interested then. Is it that they feel they are unable to find a solution? Is this the end of the “hard” approach, which has proven itself so ineffective?

11 :30pm : the police are playing cat-and-mouse with some young people, but the situation seems under control. I am told that the mediators are playing a key part on the ground: they go and meet with the younger kids, they talk to them to convince them to not do anything. Later that night I learn that the police station at Montfermeil has been set on fire and that the police had made some arrests. There had been no major confrontations.

Antoine Germa , Tuesday November 1st. The author is a history-geography teacher who works in Clichy-sous-Bois.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/11/327207.html
++++++++++++++=

Here is an excellant interview with a reporter for th Christian Science Monitor that helps to explain the situation as well as the reasons behind the tension that exploded.

(quite the contrast to the Knee-jerk reactionary BS Darth posted)

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/07/1438213

Guerilla,

Are you trying to assert that the riots are NOT about a clash of cultures? It seems that way to me.

One of France's largest Muslim organizations issued a fatwa condemning the violence saying, "It is strictly forbidden for any Muslim... to take part in any action that strikes blindly at private or public property or that could threaten the lives of others."


This is my favorite quote and a real screamer. How does 9/11 NOT count as striking blindly at public/private property? Or how about strapping kids to bombs and putting them onto buses in Israel?

Time will tell who is right, dammit.

Just because the majority of the rioters are Muslim does not mean that the riots are Islamic in nature.

The riots are mainly because the 'republique' is a failure. In a country where every citizen is equal and can not therefore be given any form of positive discrimination - the result is a natural discrimination that cannot be fixed easily. In France it is illegal to even collect statistics about ethnic groups and social demographics - that would be anti-republic.

France is also a country with failing industry because they can no longer remain competitive due to ultra strong unions strangling change - 10% unemployment, government close to bankrupt and corrupt & weak 'good old boy' leaders.

It was only a matter of time before the fires started. It might well be just the ticket to shake some light onto the arrogance.

12 nights of riots across many cities and 1 death. Sounds like they are being quite civil about it. Can you imagine how full the morgue would be after 12 nights of riots in the US?

Can you imagine how full the morgue would be after 12 nights of riots in the US?

*shivers*

I've been too busy defending my home against Al-Quada rioters these last days to post on this forum.
No, I'm joking.
But anyway it's time to answer to DB 's nonsensic posts.

First - 500LB and Drew - good posts. The long "eyewitness report" seems a very good first hand report and is coherent to other reports I have been reading in newspapers. And Drew's analysis of the situation in economic terms is rather right. There are other factors, though, mostly cultural and sociological.

First, I would like to answer some specific points in DB's posts that are either malicious lies or the result of blatant ignorance coupled with stereotypes and bias.

This will be my next post.

Who are the "rioters" ?

Mostly teenagers, some of them very young, living in poor suburbs of big and middle size cities.
Most kids in these suburbs are quiet and law abiding. But a few dozen in a suburb are enough to make a lot of fuss.

Where do they come from ?

These kids are french. Many are second generation generation immigrants. Their parents came in France during the 60's and 70's to work in France ans ultimately stayed.
Unlike what has been written here, they do not come from Middle East but from North Africa : mostly Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia - former frnech colonies. Some also are of french or european ascent.

Are they muslim terrorists ?
Some are of muslim culture, which does not mean they are religious zealots. But most of them are just the average bored teenager with no hope of getting a proper place in french society.

How did it start ?

Like has been said in a previous post, it started by the death of two teenagers who were chased by the police. They were electrocuted while trying to hide in an electricity factory.
This led other kids from their suburb to demonstrate against the police, and further repression led to more unrest. Kids in other similar suburbs soon followed this example, leading to an extension of the troubles.

is "Paris burning"
I was in Paris yesterday and the temperature was rather cool.
No, Paris is not burning, neither are other french towns. In fact we cannot really speak of riots, except in a few places (mostly Clichy where everything started). It's most about small groups of teenagers acting at night, setting up fire and disappearing quickly. It's true that "ambushes" have been set up in a few places against the police or firemen, and even gun rounds have been shot, but these are very isolated cases.

Are there many victims ?

Until now nobody has been killed : there have been a few injured, one of them very seriously, but only the two kids of the first story died.

The trouble are serious though, hundreds of cars have been burned, some stores and public places vandalised or set afire.

Is it still safe to live in France
Yes. These trouble are very impressive but located in less than 30 places. You can live one kilometer further and wee nothing different from usual (it's my case). And, once more, only a few people have been injured.

Why is this happening ?
This is a more polemic issue and of course many analysis and opinions can be stated.
The "muslim threat" desrcribed by DB is one of them. I think DB and the papers he quotes are quite wrong and depict a grossly exaggerated situation. Sure, religious identity is a problem in France, but we are far, very far from the Islamist ghettoes decribed by DB.

One thing is certain : these kids have no clear politcal or religious agenda, and even less any clear demand. They seem to act violently for many reasons :
- rage : many feel they are left over by society.
- fun : for the youngers, this is sometimes more a thrilling game of cops and villains.
- unability to express their anger through other means, due to poor education and to lack of access to traditional action means.

Most of all, and worst of all, these kids seem to have absolutely no feeling of belonging to a community but their own block. They don't care about the damege they inflict to society because they don't feel they are a part of this society. Their only solidarity is to their family and friends of the same block.
In fact, there is a competition between suburbs that explains much of the increase in trouble last days. When the kids of a suburb see what the other did on TV, they want to do worst just to be on TV next day. Their real achievement is to see their exploits reported on CNN !

Is the french govt responsible for this
Of course the first responsible are the kids. They act criminally and should be punished accordingly.

But the social context is worse than ever. These suburbs have been treated like shits during decades ; and the present govt has cut the fundings for most of the social projects in these suburbs. Many associations that did a very good work on culture and education in these places had to stop. These people feel very bitter now.

Kick ass, astra! I take it your stay in Paris was pleasant?

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
The French were well aware that they had a problem on their hands, and they were hoping that, by beating up on America, they would look heroic to the Muslims. It didnt' work.

This is the fourth or fifth time in thsi thread alone that you have mentioned **France "beating up on" America**.

Could you please explain to me what France has done that qualifies as "beating up on" America?

Because I don't see how simply refusing to join in another county's decision to go to war counts as "beating up on" that country.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
The truly sad, disgusting part of that little quote of yours is that YOU wanted Bush to "listen" to the French when it came to invading Iraq.

I certainly did.

Not because of any supposed kowtowing to the Muslims that France was doing, but because the war is WRONG.......it is goddamned evil incarnate to wage war on a country that has not harmed you; to wage war on a country simply because you want to take control of their natural resources (i.e., oil)

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
......stil dumb enough to believe Saddam's word that he wasn't hiding his WMDs?

Ok.

Let's see who the stupid person is here.

If Saddam WAS --as you clearly imply-- "hiding WMDs"..........where are they?!?!?!?!?

You've been asked again and again to provide us proof of the supposed WMDs Saddam was said to have, but you cannot do it.

Are you truly THAT goddamned willfully blind that you cannot admit to yourself --now that we have had years to search-- that the --"Saddam has hundreds of tons of WMDs!!!!-- story was complete bullshit?!?!?!

I heard it is only a matter of time before the French surrender to the teenagers

Until now nobody has been killed : there have been a few injured, one of them very seriously, but only the two kids of the first story died.

Not so. A sixty one year old man who was peacefully talking with another man was beaten to death. "The unrest claimed its first victim Monday, with the death of a 61- year-old man beaten into a coma last week." A female reporter for a Korean news organization was beaten into unconsciousness.


The trouble are serious though, hundreds of cars have been burned, some stores and public places vandalised or set afire.

While technically not untrue, a gross understatement. Not hundeds but thousands of cars have been torched along with buses. More than 2,000 cars were burned in the last two days alone. "Nationwide, vandals burned 1,173 cars overnight Monday to Tuesday, compared with 1,408 vehicles the night before, police said."


Yes. These trouble are very impressive but located in less than 30 places.

Again, not true. You have understated the locations by about ten times. " rioting was reported in 226 towns across France, compared with nearly 300 the night before."

link (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/08/D8DOGM282.html)

This may not be the Intafada transported to Europe but it is a major riot by mainly Muslem young men and it shouldnn't be understated or downplayed.

Darth Be'lal may have been too specific and harsh in his condemnation of Islam but it seems astrapol2 is perhaps trying to, at least to some extent, sugar coat what is happening.

come on frogger, the french have them right where they want them!

The rioting would have ended already but Chirac can't remember where he put his white flag.

check the nearest army base

Warning Stereotypical Racist asshole quoted below:
This is my favorite quote and a real screamer. How does 9/11 NOT count as striking blindly at public/private property? Or how about strapping kids to bombs and putting them onto buses in Israel?

You've really gone off the deep end haven't you? Apparently you have no clue about the fact that people are individuals and that power corrupts. religion is but one of many excuses for violence.

But hey thanks for demonstating for everyone that it is possible to shit out your mouth. Its a great party trick.

Warning Stereotypical Racist asshole quoted below:

Where? You mean under that quoted line? Ahh, i see it now...

Now we have the franco-africans raising hell. France has a lengthier learning curve than even the U.S.

Gee, what a firestorm I've started!

Drew,


Just because the majority of the rioters are Muslim does not mean that the riots are Islamic in nature.

Okay, let's see. The unemployment rate is something like 50% in these suburbs where the riots are going on. The immigrants, Algerian mainly as astropol has pointed out, have NOT assimilated into French society and have no hope of doing so. Many do not speak french and they are Muslim. NOW, for almost two weeks, KIDS have been having their way on these suburbs night after night and the French police hasn't been able to quell the riots. The rioting has spread to some THREE HUNDRED French towns and no end is in sight. I will agree that it wasn't the Al Qaida types that STARTED the riots in France, but do you honestly believe that these riots haven't gotten the attention of the Al Qaida types? If teenagers can walk all over the French police, you can imagine what hardened terrorists can do.

BTW, you are correct in all your other points, except for...

12 nights of riots across many cities and 1 death. Sounds like they are being quite civil about it. Can you imagine how full the morgue would be after 12 nights of riots in the US?


Gee drew, this is France, land of the slap fights. They don't know how to get down and RIOT the way we do in America! The French police STILL do not have permission to shoot back. What do you expect, dammit.


On a more serious note, I wouldn't call complete loss of law and order night after night "civil" under any circumstances, no matter how few the deaths. Nor the other practices by the French for some 3 damn decades now.


The thing that disgusts is that I know damn good and well that had it been the U.S. and it had been black people rioting in the exact same way they are rioting in France, the press would have been having a field day. Details of centuries of racism would've been lovingly pored over, and the Jesse Jacksons types would've been nodding their heads and saying "the white man" had it coming for years now and the guerillafreethinkerechodop machine on these boards would've found some way to blame Bush, the French would've been criticizing us up one side and down the other. Dammit.

Gee astropol,

I was wondering when you would show up!


To be honest, I don't think anything I've said so far is "nonsensical." But I'll go through your rebuttalls with you, anyway.


Mostly teenagers, some of them very young, living in poor suburbs of big and middle size cities.

And we'll just gloss over the fact that they are minorities and Muslim?


These kids are french. Many are second generation generation immigrants. Their parents came in France during the 60's and 70's to work in France ans ultimately stayed.

Keep in mind that the people who bombed London were also second generation Muslim immigrants and also bear in mind that one of the points I've harped on over and over is that THESE KIDS HAVE NOT INTEGRATED INTO FRENCH SOCIETY!!


Some are of muslim culture, which does not mean they are religious zealots.

OOOOOOKAY. As I've told Drew, I don't believe that when the riots started, it was the work of religious fanatics. But after two weeks!?? Something that I've just remembered, there were and probably still are Muslim Clerics in Britain who did preach Radical Islam, it's what inspired the suicide bombings in Britain in July, dammit. I've read that there are some in the U.S. and in other parts of the world. Are you going to tell me that in these small towns like Clichy with mostly Muslim inhabbitants, that there are NOT Radical Islamists in those mosques? IF there weren't the Al Qaida types in the France before this happened, IF religion didn't have a component in starting the riots, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Islamists just got very, very interested in France, they smell blood in the water, dammit.


No, Paris is not burning, neither are other french towns. In fact we cannot really speak of riots, except in a few places (mostly Clichy where everything started). It's most about small groups of teenagers acting at night, setting up fire and disappearing quickly. It's true that "ambushes" have been set up in a few places against the police or firemen, and even gun rounds have been shot, but these are very isolated cases. .

Paris is definately not burning. But then you have to backtrack and start the "well there have been riots and ambushes and fires.....but it's not all that bad." When some 300 of your towns have experienced riots in a single night, astrapol, it's bad. Okay?


Is it still safe to live in France?

For the moment, yes. But I don't think this problem is going away anytime soon. The rioters aren't part of mainstream French society, many are unemployed and I suspect that they've turned or are going to turn to more radical Islam for their identity. It could become a Northern Ireland type thing. I don't say this to gloat. The main reason for posting this thing is to warn others that Radical Islam is spreading and it's time to take it seriously, dammit.

Why did the muslim frog cross the road?














To get to the riot.

Ribbit.

Various stuff.....


You've really gone off the deep end haven't you? Apparently you have no clue about the fact that people are individuals and that power corrupts. religion is but one of many excuses for violence.


And your point is??


But hey thanks for demonstating for everyone that it is possible to shit out your mouth. Its a great party trick.

Look, guerilla, just because your girlfriend ran out from underneath the porch last night and bit you on the leg doesn't give you the right to call me names! Dammit.


Not because of any supposed kowtowing to the Muslims that France was doing, but because the war is WRONG.......it is goddamned evil incarnate to wage war on a country that has not harmed you;


I don't know about that, freethinker, from the schoolyard to international politics, it's a great day for the rest of us when the bully gets what's coming to him!


If Saddam WAS --as you clearly imply-- "hiding WMDs"..........where are they?!?!?!?!?


That, freethinker, is the $64,000 question, ain't it?


You've been asked again and again to provide us proof of the supposed WMDs Saddam was said to have, but you cannot do it.

That's because they've been hidden, freethinker. I've provided links to dual purpose labs and such and files/documents/hard drives being selectively destroyed, but to you it's either piles of WMDs or Bush was lying. Of course YOU believe that the voting machines in Ohio were rigged, and Gore won the election in Florida in 2000, the Downing Street Memos are real and the war was for oil.

Ignorance is bliss.

Of course YOU believe that the voting machines in Ohio were rigged, and Gore won the election in Florida in 2000, the Downing Street Memos are real and the war was for oil.

The exit polls are pretty damning.

There is clearly some serious anger behind the riots - but lets face it - these are kids for the most part. They seem to be given a free hand to burn cars and have fun - so why not? - they have nothing else quite so interesting to do with their time. Kids will burn cars etc if they are allowed to.

The reason this has gotten out of control is the French government has let it get out of control - they have pretty much made a statement that it's ok to burn cars and riot - clearly there is little consequense or risk. No matter what their bad situation - rioting is not a valid form of expression. Their lives may suck - but they don't live in the slums of India. You riot - you risk being shot in the head - that is the only sensible way to stop this. The French of course would never dream of actually taking any hard action. I like seeing de Villepin squirm.

If they had gone in and started shooting the rioters - it would have stopped on day 2. Now it's spread to 300 towns and impossible to stop. It will stop of course, but only when the kids get bored or run out of cars to burn.

Who in the hell is leaving their car on street to be burned? Maybe there are more cars being left in the street - great way to get a new car via insurance money.

I bet Renault & Citroen is loving the riots. Who needs Union support for productivity improvement when you can improve sales through riots! - A wonderful situation.

The republic faces it's moment of truth. One thing is certain - the republic will never face any measure of truth. A few weeks of fires can not shake the shaky edifice.

Frogger -
you're right. I was just going to correct my previous post when I read yours. My figures were underestimated, and a guy died from his injuries (I previously refered to him as a severely injured person.

My post may appear as "sugarcoating" the situation. This was not my intent : France is really facing one of its worst times since the last ten years. But still, this is far from being apocalypse.

DB

I maintain that, on that issue, radical islam is not the main problem.
Of course there are extremist muslims in France. In the past some have been turning to terrorism and it is very likely that some will do it again.

Among the kids who are burning cars, there are many people of muslim culture and sure, some may want to refer to islam. But this is far from being the main issue. Unfortunately, most of these kids have no political agenda. They just enjoy being the center of worldwide attention for the first time in their life.

Just for the record :

1- unlike what has been said, the islamic veil is not forbidden in France. People are free to dress the way they want. The recent law just forbids "obvious religious signs" in public schools (a mistake IMO : I agree that school should be free from religious propaganda, but a law was not necessary for this, it should have been settled on a case-per-case basis).

2- There are no "places where the police had not been for years". There are many places where the police is not welcome and is reluctant to go, though.
Our govt dismantled local police offices who were doing a great job by being present on a daily basis, and being familiar whith people of their area. This was a big mistake : now, when police squad come, they are seen as an intrusive force without any link to the local population, and they behave accordingly.


Drew
I strongly disagree that shooting at kids would have been the right answer. French police already has a bad enough reputation, often justified, of unnecessary brutality and racism. If another kid died, it would really set the country on fire, and lead to a much worse situation.

I prefer to see hundreds of cars burn than ten people die. Not all french people think like me, and these events are only adding to racism and anger. Guess who will ultimately benefit from this ? The Front National and the demagogic right.

Just for the records - many people in french towns just park their cars in the streets. Outdoors parkings are very common in suburbs built during the sixties, and there are usually few security guards. Downtown, most houses don't have a car park.

I usually park my car in my street, as 80% of my neighbours do. I still do since
a- It's the most convenient solution.
b- I dont feel threatened, even though I live in a popular area where many immigrants live.

Nice posts Astra, it's good to get the opinion of someone who's there.

I'm probably not the first to say it and this comment will likely make me unpopular but you know what? Fuck it.

I am sick of Muslims!

Oh sure, only .01% of them are committing violent acts of terrorism shit, but sometimes a rotten apple spoils the whole bunch. How many Jewish/Christian Extremists do you see blowing themselves up in the name of their god? I'm not biased either, I myself am agnostic. I have no real religious preference. I've simply noticed the obvious correlation between Islam and violence and it's gotta stop. These people (oh no, he said "these people") are being fuckers on a frequent enough basis that I can't help but look down on them to some degree. I know good people that are Muslims, so don't take my statements to be overly cruel here. I just think that many Muslims have a screw loose (ex/ 9-11 attacks, London bombing, suicide bombers in Iraq, violence in France, etc) and need to be straightened out.

Is it really so wrong to judge a group that keeps on making themselves look so incredibly bad? I don't hate the Islamic faith, just the followers who act like assholes.

Rioting in France is nothing new.

If they keep it up they will call out the Army and kill the people making the problem.

No big deal.

In the future it would be best to limit the migration of workers. The United States is up to its armpits in illegal aliens not to mention the millions of legal aliens.

It's too late for us but Europe will survive.

Originally posted by cranston36
If they keep it up they will call out the Army and kill the people making the problem.

I don't think so. Frnace has large police forces, some of them dedicated in riot control. The army has never been unsed in this kind of situation and I don't see what they coul do.

Plus, it's not a french tradition of killing rioters.

Originally posted by cranston36


In the future it would be best to limit the migration of workers. The United States is up to its armpits in illegal aliens not to mention the millions of legal aliens.

It's too late for us but Europe will survive.

Immigration is already very stricly controlled in France. And the trouble makers are not immigrants, they are second generation kids, with the french nationality.

[
Plus, it's not a french tradition of killing rioters
.


But there is a tradition in France of rioters killing others. Look at the numbers of innocents killed during and immediately following the French Revolution.

Also, there is a bit of a tradition of the French killing rioters. Algeria was a French Department, if I'm not mistaken and the French killed many Algerian rioters.

Originally posted by Frogger



But there is a tradition in France of rioters killing others. Look at the numbers of innocents killed during and immediately following the French Revolution.

Hmmm… we can't really call the french revolution a riot.

Originally posted by Frogger

Also, there is a bit of a tradition of the French killing rioters. Algeria was a French Department, if I'm not mistaken and the French killed many Algerian rioters.

You're absolutely right, if you refer to the brutal repression of 1961 in Paris, when a large number of algerian immigrants were thrown in the Seine. In fact they were not even rioters, they were peauceful demonstrators. A very dark episode of our history.
Ironically, the law that is used today to enable curfews in a few towns was passed in 1955 to repress demonstrations during the Algeria war.

Centuries of brutality towards african population let deep scars in our society.

Astra - are there white kids buring cars too? I read something saying there was.

How many Jewish/Christian Extremists do you see blowing themselves up in the name of their god? Hey look Darth heres another racist moron for you to play with.

There were quite a few abortion clinic bombings and doctors being murdered by Christian Extremists. Theres also quite a few Christian extremists murdering people in Iraq right now. In fact the military loves violent knee jerk reactionaries. Israel is filled with Jewish extremists that murder Muslims and Chrstians on a regular basis.

But I guess they don't fit your question because they aren't dedicated anough to blow themselves up, just others.

This riot would have nothing to do with Muslims and more to do with immigrants if the pigs hadn't fired a tear gas canister into the mosque during prayers. Besides that as far as I know this isn't a muslim riot or a race riot. This is a riot of the disenfranchised people of France. C'mon Astra help clarify this for us.

But there is a tradition in France of rioters killing others. Look at the numbers of innocents killed during and immediately following the French Revolution. And then they just handed themselves over to another dictator. Those French are wacky.

Centuries of brutality towards african population let deep scars in our society And it's coming back to the surface. I'm sick of people who blame the victim. Of course its hard to see in this case but that is exactly what happened. The cops have repeatedly harrassed these people with impunity. Thinking they would always get away with such actions because they always had. This is nothing but blowback from a population that has been oppressed.

Funny ain't it. Racism causes the tension and when it breaks loose more racism scurries out of the woodwork.

French Muslims face job discrimination
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Astra - are there white kids buring cars too?

Well, "technically" most of them are "white" - mediterranean type is quite common in France.
I suppose you mean kids from french ascendants.
The answer is yes, of course. These suburbs are not ghettoes with 100% population from african origin. There are many "french" people there too, and nothing prevents their kids to be as dumb as others.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

This riot would have nothing to do with Muslims and more to do with immigrants if the pigs hadn't fired a tear gas canister into the mosque during prayers. Besides that as far as I know this isn't a muslim riot or a race riot. This is a riot of the disenfranchised people of France. C'mon Astra help clarify this for us.


Right, nothing to add.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

And it's coming back to the surface. I'm sick of people who blame the victim. Of course its hard to see in this case but that is exactly what happened. The cops have repeatedly harrassed these people with impunity. Thinking they would always get away with such actions because they always had. This is nothing but blowback from a population that has been oppressed.

Funny ain't it. Racism causes the tension and when it breaks loose more racism scurries out of the woodwork.


I agree with you. Anyway, we should not be naive either and deny any responsibility for these kids. They do not have to behave that way (and in fact many kids don't).
Their first victims are usually their neighbours and relatives. This won't help them get a better life. This is just adding to mayhem, confusion, anger and racism.

It seems things are cooling down lately. I guess the bad weather will help - it started raining today on France and I think it's way less funny to go messing around when you're wet and frozen.

I agree with you. Anyway, we should not be naive either and deny any responsibility for these kids. They do not have to behave that way (and in fact many kids don't). Their first victims are usually their neighbours and relatives. This won't help them get a better life. This is just adding to mayhem, confusion, anger and racism. Of course. This needs to stop as soon as possible. The quickest way to stop it would be to announce a reform of the police department and the way they handle themselves. To call for unity within france and to announce that descrimination will not be tolerated. These people are striking out to be heard and acknowledged. The sooner that is done the sooner the destruction and violence will stop. Of course they are welcome to prosecute any people who have been apprehended. However to deny their motivation will only lead to future riots (or the spread of this one).

On a lighter note:

"The [rioting] immigrants, mainly North African Muslims, are upset that they're being shunned by French society. They feel alienated, scorned, looked down upon. Apparently, they're unaware this is a common situation known as Being French."
---Rob Corddry

Guerilla's garbage......

Hey look Darth heres another racist moron for you to play with.

Being disgusted with the .01% of the Muslims who are out committing terrorist acts isn't racist, nor moronic, dammit. Which is what comics was saying. What disgusts me about YOU is that you have that the only bad news you care to post is what makes Bush/America or Israel look bad.


There were quite a few abortion clinic bombings and doctors being murdered by Christian Extremists. Theres also quite a few Christian extremists murdering people in Iraq right now. In fact the military loves violent knee jerk reactionaries. Israel is filled with Jewish extremists that murder Muslims and Chrstians on a regular basis.

And this is your excuse for turning a blind eye to Jihadist? Anything that "Christain/Israeli extremists" are(n't) up to is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what the Jihadists are doing. Which you aren't interested in because it doesn't make Bush look bad. Your motives are transparent, and disgusting.



This is a riot of the disenfranchised people of France.

DUH! And they also happen to be Muslims. I'll grant that when the riots first started, it didn't have anything to do with Islamic Jihad, but the extent and scope of it, now? The U.S. was attacked by Islamists, Spain got attacked, Britain was attacked, Australia almost had a major terrorist strike. And you are going to sit here and tell me, that after how inept the French have proved in stopping these riots, that things are not going to get worse? There are zillions of disenfranchised Muslims living throughout Europe, and they are ripe for the influence of Jihad. Mark my words in the upcoming weeks and months, dammit.


Media fails to call Muslim rioters, Muslim (http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/joelmowbray/2005/11/10/175028.html)

Baghdad on the Seine (http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/suzannefields/2005/11/10/175026.html)

When Muslims Attack...France (http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/benshapiro/2005/11/09/174870.html)

Quarter Ton,

Some of what you say makes sense but then you go and ruin it by adding crap like this.

There were quite a few abortion clinic bombings and doctors being murdered by Christian Extremists.

What do you call quite a few, one, two, maybe three? One abortion doctor has been killed. I don't know of any dictionary that would define one as quite a few.

Darth is arguing too far on the anti-Muslim side and you are his counterpart on the other side. Neither of you seem able to see any ground somewhere in the middle.

The rioting is being done by mainly Muslim teens and young twenty somethings. That is fact, not conjecture.

Conjecture says this is not a Muslim uprising but rather the acts of young men who feel disenfranchised from French society even though they are for the most part French citizens. That conjecture is probably right. This is not Jihad. This is not a religious uprising. This is young kids who feel they are marginalized by society getting their revenge against those they view as oppressors.

When you say things like, "There were quite a few abortion clinic bombings and doctors being murdered by Christian Extremists. Theres also quite a few Christian extremists murdering people in Iraq right now.", you are oppoosing one type of religious bigotry with another. When you call the police pigs you instantly mark yourself as an extremist whose statements should all be viewed through a filter to find their underlying motive.

Perhhaps if you used less imflammatory language you would be taken more seriously by more people.

If a cop who fires weapons into a church isn't a pig then what is?

Being disgusted with the .01% of the Muslims who are out committing terrorist acts isn't racist, nor moronic, dammit. Which is what comics was saying. Ahh yes but blaming all the rest of the Muslims for it is and that is exactly what you do.

Ahh yes but blaming all the rest of the Muslims for it is and that is exactly what you do.

It could be my fault again for not making myself clear. There are two factions in the Muslim world, one wished to take their religion a little more liberally, modernize and follow the West in the 21st century, the other half wishes to return to the older, stricter interpretations of the Koran, shut the West out of the Middle East and have a 14th century style of Islam. These are the Bin Laden types that I'm trying to warn everyone ELSE about, dammit.


Darth is arguing too far on the anti-Muslim side and you are his counterpart on the other side. Neither of you seem able to see any ground somewhere in the middle.

Frogger,

I'll have to say it yet again. Read one of Bin Laden's terrorist manifestos, read about the new Iranian President's plans for his country, read about what Muslims think of Western Culture and society, read "What's So Great About America" by Dinesh D'Souza and start reading the articles by Amir Taheri. Then maybe you'll see why I've been harping on the Jihadist bit here, dammit. I'm not "anti-Muslim." I'm just aware of what a situtation like what is going on in France is capable of becoming.

There are those, who are Muslims, who wish to hurt the West as badly as they can. It's these guys I'm aware of, and it's why I've been so vehement on this issue on these boards, dammit.

Lighten up on the dammits, damn it.

Originally posted by Frogger
Lighten up on the dammits, damn it.

It is a trademark

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
If a cop who fires weapons into a church isn't a pig then what is?

Any of several mammals of the family Suidae, having short legs, cloven hooves, bristly hair, and a cartilaginous snout used for digging, especially the domesticated hog, Sus scrofa domesticus, when young or of comparatively small size.

Note the use of the term "pig" to refer to a police officer is considered offensive slang.


Ahh yes but blaming all the rest of the Muslims for it is and that is exactly what you do.

Which is exactly what you do when you refer to cops as "pigs"...you tar all of them for the bad behavior of a few.

No it is you who read it that way. I only called the cops who shot tear gas into a mosque pigs. I never use it as a blanket term but to make examples of cops breaking the law. Politicians who do the same are also pigs.

Police who break the law to violate citizens are far more offensive then any word to describe them could be.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
No it is you who read it that way. I only called the cops who shot tear gas into a mosque pigs. I never use it as a blanket term but to make examples of cops breaking the law. Politicians who do the same are also pigs.

Police who break the law to violate citizens are far more offensive then any word to describe them could be.

Forgive me 500, but that's a cop-out...it's no different then someone saying something bad about liberals and then claiming they didn't mean all liberals.

You didn't say "the cops who did such-and-such are pigs", you said:

This riot would have nothing to do with Muslims and more to do with immigrants if the pigs hadn't fired a tear gas canister into the mosque during prayers.

It's not how I read it, it's how you wrote it. You made no qualifying statement at all, you just referred to a group of persons as "pigs" without specifying who the pigs were.

The quickest way to stop it would be to announce a reform of the police department and the way they handle themselves. Well gee I didn't call them the Pig department here now did I.

I cannot be held responsible for you making assumptions about what I write. I will continue to call police who break the law pigs. I had already clarified this issue and my use of the word with you on a thread a while back. If you can't remember more than 3 months back too damn bad.

You didn't use a modifier when you called them pigs. You can use all the weasel language you wish after the fact but the fact remains you called the police pigs.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I cannot be held responsible for you making assumptions about what I write. I will continue to call police who break the law pigs.

I have no problem with you using the term to refer to lawbreakers. That's not what you do. It may be the idea that you intend to express, but you do it so poorly that it isn't made clear in your posts.


I had already clarified this issue and my use of the word with you on a thread a while back. If you can't remember more than 3 months back too damn bad.

There's nothing wrong with my memory 500, the problem lies in your inability, or your lack of desire, to be specific in your references. Of course, you've had this pointed out to you before, so maybe I should make a snide remark about your memory?

Go ahead, Vile, the door has been opened.