Cuba demonstrates its high degree of preparation for confronting nature’s adversities (http://granma.cu/ingles/2005/octubre/lun24/44demuestra.html)

• Affirms President Fidel Castro

• He offers medical aid to Mexico, where Wilma left more than one million victims

BY ORFILIO PELAEZ AND HAYDEE LEON

IN face of the threat of Hurricane Wilma, the country has once again showed its high level of preparation for confronting such adversities of nature and mobilizing all forces and resources in order to protect each one of its citizens, something they cannot achieve in even the richest nations, affirmed President Fidel Castro, who spoke during a TV "Roundtable" program on Sunday, October 23.

Fidel contrasted the serenity, discipline and organization demonstrated by our people in face of the dangers posed by this menacing storm with the scenes of looting happening in stores and markets in the United States following Hurricane Katrina and now in the Yucatan, Mexico, after it was harshly lashed by Wilma’s winds of more than 200 kilometers per hour.

"That is the big difference between the capitalist system that promotes irrational consumerism, selfishness and madness, which leads people to loot a business when a disaster of this sort occurs, and our socialist society, where an enormous effort is made for equality, solidarity and justice, values that we will never renounce," Fidel emphasized.

He recalled that from the early years of the Revolution, when the first doctors were sent to Algeria, the country has always offered its selfless assistance to other peoples suffering from natural and other disasters, as was the case after the earthquakes in Peru and Nicaragua, even when the latter occurred under the dictatorship of Anastasio Somoza.

Continuing on that subject, Fidel mentioned the recent offer of aid to the people of the United States after the tragedy in Louisiana following the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina in September.

After several days of a prolonged silence waiting for a response from U.S. authorities, he noted, the Henry Reeve International Contingent was created to offer aid to countries hit by natural disasters.

Shortly after the Contingent was formed, two huge disasters took place; one was in Central America, with the torrential rains caused by Hurricane Stan, mostly in Guatemala, and the other was the devastating earthquake that shook Pakistan, leaving an estimated 50,000 people dead and more than 60,000 injured, the Cuban president explained.

FOUR MEDICAL BRIGADES IN GUATEMALA AND TWO IN PAKISTAN

Discreetly, and without publicity, he noted, we sent four brigades from the Contingent, 400 doctors in total, to the most remote locations of Guatemala affected by the torrential flooding that took thousands of lives.

In contrast with Cuba’s gesture of solidarity, other nations prepared to send aid only did so at a symbolic level, as was the case in Louisiana; some equipment, a number of helicopters, and a few million dollars, nothing more, Fidel affirmed.

You cannot sort out anything with a few millions; what is needed are medical personnel to save lives and treat the sick, but they cannot send anyone because they don’t have them, nor can they even assemble them because they are doctors who have been corrupted by money. This is where you can appreciate what a genuine Revolution is, the values that it inculcates, the enormous wealth of human capital that we have created.

Commenting on the enormous damage caused by Wilma in the Yucatán Peninsula, where more than one million people have been affected, the president offered the Mexican government and people support in the context of medical and paramedical personnel, medicine and any other kind of aid required to confront the severe impact of the hurricane throughout that region.

During the Informative Roundtable, Fidel spoke by phone to Bruno Rodríguez, first deputy minister of Foreign Affairs who, from Pakistan, gave him details of the presence there of two Cuban medical brigades offering their services to earthquake victims in that country.

According to the deputy minister of MINREX, our doctors are working in difficult conditions due to the cold and the altitude of the area in which they are located, but are devoted to their noble mission and highly compensated by the great demonstrations of gratitude and respect from the people and the Pakistani authorities.

Also in phone contact with Dr. Yoandra Muro, head of the Cuban medical mission in Guatemala, it was known that our doctors are spread out in 800 communities in the 15 departments most affected by the torrential rains of Stan and that their morale is high.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Cuba demonstrates its high degree of preparation for confronting nature’s adversities (http://granma.cu/ingles/2005/octubre/lun24/44demuestra.html)

I guess if the Cuban newspaper says so than it must be true. Of course it's much easier to get the population to mobilize and evacuate if they fear the government.

Cube is very prepared for hurricanes. I've seen such in other (non-cuban) papers.

Yeah the population wouldn't mobilize out of empowerment from the government and fear of the hurricane or anything...

Tell me lionel in which country were armed guards and police shooting people and beating/shutting up reporters after the hurricane?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I guess if the Cuban newspaper says so than it must be true. Of course it's much easier to get the population to mobilize and evacuate if they fear the government.

Except the observations and claims made here can be crossreferenced by other media. I saw on the dumbyvision a reporter in Havana saying the same thing - people were being orderly evacuated and there it was being handled well.

The government was mobilized before there was a problem! Imagine that.

I am not so much amazed by the orderly evacuation but by the fact that Deeply Red has yet to board ship for the worker's paradise. Why are you staying here when you could be enjoying life under Tio Fidel? You are welcome to stay here but one would think that with Cuba being such a wonderful place to live and being so close you would have emmigrated years ago.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Tell me lionel in which country were armed guards and police shooting people and beating/shutting up reporters after the hurricane?

Good question - I don't know either.

That's a pretty strong accusation Quarterton. Do you have any citations for that statement or are you just blowing smoke out your ass?

Lionel - the US...

Police harrass journalist:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/16/1222253
more
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091105G.shtml

Police threaten journalists for doing their job:
http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2005/09/hurricane2.html

Toronto Star staff photojournalist Lucas Oleniuk was taken to the ground by police in the Spanish Quarter after he photographed a firefight between looters and police, and police were then reportedly “beating on” a looter. A coworker at the Toronto Star told News Photographer magazine tonight, “The cops saw him and put him down, and took his gear. At first they were going to take all of his cameras, but he talked them into only taking the memory cards and letting him keep the cameras.”
...(another one)
Georgiev says, “We came upon a body (while driving) apparently shot by the police. While I was still driving I took a few photos through the open window and I heard an officer yell, ‘Get that camera, now!’ About a half dozen cops started running toward the car. Since the car was still in motion, and I saw them drawing and raising their guns at us and afraid they would shoot us, I slammed on the brakes.

“Before I knew it, I was thrown out of the car, the camera ripped from my hand, the other camera taken from the car, and I was on the car with my legs spread, hands up, a gun pointed in my neck. I was unable to see what was going on with Gordon. I was screaming “We are press” and I saw things from my car thrown on the ground, and the car was being frantically searched by the police.”

Georgiev told News Photographer, “As soon as they confirmed that we were accredited press they mellowed down a bit and gave my cameras back, they threw Gordon’s notebook on the ground and ordered us to get lost. After quickly picking up our stuff and getting in the car we drove away, then I realized the CF memory card from my other camera was missing – but not the one with the picture of the dead body.”

Police stop evacuation:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/16/1223207

Confusion over who killed who:
http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com/2005/09/ap-kills-nola-bridge-shooting-incident.html

Numerous stories to list. Basically there were contractors, 5-8 dead "looters" and cops. The story changed numerous times in the press. But in this interview it seems clear:
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20051010&s=scahill
Contractors shot and killed 5-8 armed men they saw to be a threat. It seems that now the police have taken responsiblity for the killings (I assume to deflect any inquery into the deaths).

Originally posted by Frogger
I am not so much amazed by the orderly evacuation but by the fact that Deeply Red has yet to board ship for the worker's paradise. Why are you staying here when you could be enjoying life under Tio Fidel? You are welcome to stay here but one would think that with Cuba being such a wonderful place to live and being so close you would have emmigrated years ago.
Yeah, as he's paddling his boat to Cuba he can look at all the people leaving for the US while shouting, "Hey, what the hell is wrong with you morons!?!?! Don't you know that paradise is back where you came from!!!" Of course, I wouldn't want him to think that being the only person traveling that direction (with the exception of the Coast Guard) is odd...

Viva la Che'!!!

Originally posted by Frogger
I am not so much amazed by the orderly evacuation but by the fact that Deeply Red has yet to board ship for the worker's paradise. Why are you staying here when you could be enjoying life under Tio Fidel? You are welcome to stay here but one would think that with Cuba being such a wonderful place to live and being so close you would have emmigrated years ago.

Actually, Cuba's no workers paradise.

There's a very violent Empire who claim Cuba and all of Latin America for its own. It brutalizes anyone who dares lift their head against it. Currently it's occupying Iraq, after using nuclear weapons against that country. It's now installing an Islamist regime there.

Right now the Empire maintains a concentration camp down there in Cuba, where young men are raped and violated, even murdered. It makes the accusations against the Socialist regime look like fun by comparison.

The suffering in Cuba, which compels people to flee for a better life, is also caused by the USA. The US has an embargo against the island which is causing massive suffering.

I'm not surprised you don't know this. You're a product of the American school system, which is inferior to most (including Cuba's).

Hey I've always said 'different systems for different people.'

Some Cubans hate it, some Cubans love it.

Too bad most leaders are power hungry assholes trying to push their utopian vision on other countries. Otherwise we could have a mix in the world. (again except for anarchism because power hungry assholes can't grasp the concept of an area without a ruler).

Originally posted by Deepest Red
I'm not surprised you don't know this. You're a product of the American school system, which is inferior to most (including Cuba's).
He probably did. That aside, this is unfortunately true...

Sorry big Guerilla but nowhere did those citations say the police were shooting at people or beating up reporters. It did say they were engaged in a shootout with looters and took a photo-journalists gear away from him.

That's the problem with posting gross exagerations; they have to be verified.

Bravo for Castro - he prepares for the hurricanes, shame his people live in poverty in a rat infested shit hole.

It is a shame that the US embargo keeps a lot of needed supplies out of the country, but I don't know what you mean by 'rat infested shithole.' Maybe you mean the US-run concentration camp at Guantanamo Bay?

The Cuban people have achieved unparalleled gains for the working class and poor in Cuba. They've created a society on par with any first world country in literacy, health, arts, number of doctors per capita, etc.

Most people look at what they have relative to the United States and think they're poor. What you should realize is that they're not an industrialized country, and their nearest neighbors are among the worst places to live in the world, like Haiti. Looking at it that way you can really appreciate what Cuba has accomplished.

is it possible to move to cuba? I dont know about you, but if there was a paradise out there I would be there. of course thats just me. I know better then to think the self proclaimed communists would do anything other then flap thier gums.

Originally posted by Travh20
is it possible to move to cuba? I dont know about you, but if there was a paradise out there I would be there. of course thats just me. I know better then to think the self proclaimed communists would do anything other then flap thier gums.

Is it possible to move to Iran? That's what I would do if I were a reactionary anti-communist like you.

orry big Guerilla but nowhere did those citations say the police were shooting at people or beating up reporters. It did say they were engaged in a shootout with looters and took a photo-journalists gear away from him. Umm. know they roughed them up. If you don't see that as a grave stomping of the 1st amendment rights of the press and the people of America to be informed then youre nothing but a slave.

popular news has no need for protection. It is that which the power that be do not want you to know about for which the 1st amendment was meant.

"That is the big difference between the capitalist system that promotes irrational consumerism, selfishness and madness, which leads people to loot a business when a disaster of this sort occurs, and our socialist society, where an enormous effort is made for equality, solidarity and justice, values that we will never renounce," Fidel emphasized. [/B]

Bravo, President Castro!!

EXCELLENT point.

Ever wonder WHY, in the United States, where the citizens are supposedly "free", thay have made it against the law for people to visit Cuba???!?!

Talk about a regime afraid of what their citizens might discover...........

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Is it possible to move to Iran? That's what I would do if I were a reactionary anti-communist like you.

actually I will move to a christian theocracy. wait, there isnt one, nevermind. i guess I will stay here. you and freethinker can get on one of the rickety rafts full of people risking thier lives to get to Cuba, wait, there arent any of those either, damn!

Travh20,

Don't you realize that Americans are clamoring to get into Cuba. Why, there's Victor Manuel Gerena, the former CIA agent who became an arms dealer, and Joann Chesimard, the convicted terrorist.

They didn't have to risk their lives in makeshift boats either. All they had to do was go to Canada and from there to Cuba, the people's paradise.

There are something like 75 or 80 wanted Americans in Cuba, vs. thousands upon thousands of Cubans who left there and came to the United States.

Anyone interested in driving a '57 Chevy should emmigrate to Cuba. That is basically all they drive over there.

Originally posted by Frogger
They didn't have to risk their lives in makeshift boats either. All they had to do was go to Canada and from there to Cuba, the people's paradise.

Where do you get this 'people's paradise' crap? I admire the accomplishments of Cuba, a country whose economy is built for need over profit and has succeeded despite the biggest military power in history constantly attacking them, but I've never said it was a paradise, nor have I ever heard that claim made. Another strawman because reactionaries have no way to attack the actual facts of Cuba's accomplishments.

There are far less people legally immigrating from Cuba than capitalist places like Haiti, places that do a pretty good imitation of hell.

Originally posted by Frogger
There are something like 75 or 80 wanted Americans in Cuba, vs. thousands upon thousands of Cubans who left there and came to the United States.

Including political prisoners who fled COINTELPRO.

Originally posted by Frogger
Anyone interested in driving a '57 Chevy should emmigrate to Cuba. That is basically all they drive over there. [/B]

Oh no! They drive old cars and reuse things!

What a hellhole of oppression.

Nevermind more doctors per capita than any other nation on earth, nevermind struggling against the illegal embargo or achieving one of the most literate countries on earth. On an island which basically depends on tourism and sugar for its income!

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Nevermind more doctors per capita than any other nation on earth, nevermind struggling against the illegal embargo or achieving one of the most literate countries on earth. On an island which basically depends on tourism and sugar for its income!
Yeah! And these Cuban doctors are so progressive and people oriented, they'll pretty much perform any surgery for only $39.95. They're brilliant people, and the cool part is they don't care about money. I'm thinking about moving there. Journalists love it!!!

http://www.epica-awards.org/assets/epica/2004/winners/print/images/10037a%20%20%20Cuba.jpg

I could easily counter your silly petty posts with concrete facts and documented reality, but I won't bother for another spin on this merry go round. Others can see my previous posts for a bit of truth.

Yeah! And these Cuban doctors are so progressive and people oriented, they'll pretty much perform any surgery for only $39.95.

Sounds like Earl Sheib.

The pre-Castro literacy rate was in the high 70% range so the increase is not as much as some would like to make it seem.

There is a two tiered medical system in Cuba, one for the general population and one for the party elite.

They drive old cars because they have to, not because they want to.

Political parties are outlawed. Dissenters are jailed. Children are encouraged to spy on their parents. College students are forced to take 'vacations' and work in the cane fields. There is no freedom of the press or of speech.

Maybe some people would be willing to give those things up for free medical care. I wouldn't.

there is also institutionalized racism and camps where they force people with aids to go and die. real compassion there.

the illegal embargo

Hold on there Red rider...since when is one country, in this case a capitalist republic, placing an embargo on another country, in this case a communist dictatorship that has worked against the previously mentioned country's interests in the past, illegal?
That is entirely our decision to trade or not to trade with our enemies.

a country whose economy is built for need over profit and has succeeded despite the biggest military power in history constantly attacking them

Yep, i see American fighter jets dropping bombs on Havana so regularly i take it for granted. :rolleyes:

What a hellhole of oppression.

You bet Sparky

Where do you get this 'people's paradise' crap?

Every communist on earth should ask themselves that question right away.

Originally posted by Travh20
there is also institutionalized racism and camps where they force people with aids to go and die. real compassion there.

Cuba's been praised by American civil rights leaders for its progressive efforts to eliminate racism.

I think you got confused with Guantanamo Bay, where lots of darker people are imprisoned, tortured and raped by American crackers.

Sorry Red you lose. Cuba may be a good place to live for many people but I would not call it a free country. Same goes for the US for evryone else here.

Originally posted by Frogger
They drive old cars because they have to, not because they want to.
I fully concur, Frogger, and the funny thing is, you'd think these people were just being conscious of "reusing things", right? Maybe they're just trying to make a bold political statement about anti-consumerism as they frown at the lowly, fat Americans, who have the audacity to drive new cars and live in air conditioned houses. Hogwash. They drive shitty cars because they have no choice in the matter. To claim they've done a lot is akin to putting a tuxedo on a turd. So their literacy rate is almost as good as ours...good for them - I'm impressed.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Cuba's been praised by American civil rights leaders for its progressive efforts to eliminate racism.

I think you got confused with Guantanamo Bay, where lots of darker people are imprisoned, tortured and raped by American crackers.

I forgot liberals place as much emphasis on attempts and intentions as results. as long as someone says they are for something that is good enough,e ven if all their actions say somethign else. Barbra streisand and her massive energy consumption while at the same time lecturing us to conserve is a good example.

anyway, go tell us how many blacks are in castros government.

Originally posted by Frogger
The pre-Castro literacy rate was in the high 70% range so the increase is not as much as some would like to make it seem.

Yet Cuba's literacy rate is on par with America's, and the youth are even more literate.

Cuba's literacy in youth is 99.8% and for adults is 97%.

Originally posted by Frogger
There is a two tiered medical system in Cuba, one for the general population and one for the party elite.

Prove it, and demonstrate how this has a negative affect, as Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate, better than that of the US.

Originally posted by Frogger
They drive old cars because they have to, not because they want to.

Yep, because their country is blockaded illegally by the USA.

Originally posted by Frogger
Political parties are outlawed.

Good. I don't know a single political party that represents the majority, the working class, in America. Mobilizing the masses to make decisions directly without 'representatives' is far more democratic than the illusion of bourgeois 'democracy.'

Originally posted by Frogger Dissenters are jailed.

CIA agents and terrorists, actually.

Originally posted by Frogger
Children are encouraged to spy on their parents. College students are forced to take 'vacations' and work in the cane fields.

Oh no! College students have to work! Unlike the USA.

Originally posted by Frogger
There is no freedom of the press or of speech.

The government recently asked people and dissenting organizations to voice their criticisms. Government ministers in Cuba are regularly interupted by the people listening who disagree with their opinions. You do that here and you would get harrassed by the cops, like the fella who told Cheney to fuck himself during his photo op.

Originally posted by Frogger
Maybe some people would be willing to give those things up for free medical care. I wouldn't.

Quite a misrepresentation, as it's proven that Cuba is free in many ways aside from its first rate health care. But misrepresentation is really all you have to go on, isn't it.

Originally posted by Travh20
I forgot liberals place as much emphasis on attempts and intentions as results. as long as someone says they are for something that is good enough,e ven if all their actions say somethign else. Barbra streisand and her massive energy consumption while at the same time lecturing us to conserve is a good example.

anyway, go tell us how many blacks are in castros government.

I'm not a liberal, not even close.

The day-to-day affairs of Cuba are run by local committees, which include a large number of blacks obviously.

Deepest Red
Some issues you didn't address, like freedom of the press and others you simply glossed over like political parties.

You are an apologist for communism so I would be surprised had you reacted any differently.

Yep, because their country is blockaded illegally by the USA.

Repost: Hold on there Red rider...since when is one country, in this case a capitalist republic, placing an embargo on another country, in this case a communist dictatorship that has worked against the previously mentioned country's interests in the past, illegal?
That is entirely our decision to trade or not to trade with our enemies.

Oh no! College students have to work! Unlike the USA.

Oh no! In America there is freedom for college kids to choose when, why, and where to work! Unlike Cuba.

You are trying to justify forced labor?

The day-to-day affairs of Cuba are run by local committees, which include a large number of blacks obviously.

Oh really?

Well, of course it has to...because you said obviously at the end...because it so obvious...:rolleyes:

just answer me this red, have you been to cuba?

Originally posted by Deepest Red
It is a shame that the US embargo keeps a lot of needed supplies out of the country,

Which supplies that Cuba needs can they only obtain from the U.S., besides a head gasket for a '53 Chevy?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Which supplies that Cuba needs can they only obtain from the U.S., besides a head gasket for a '53 Chevy?

Certain medical supplies for advaned medical procedures, according to New Scientist magazine.

Originally posted by Evakian
Repost: Hold on there Red rider...since when is one country, in this case a capitalist republic, placing an embargo on another country, in this case a communist dictatorship that has worked against the previously mentioned country's interests in the past, illegal?
That is entirely our decision to trade or not to trade with our enemies.

I agree that Cuba goes against the the interets of the US ruling class. Like shutting down the brothels and giving the workers the power to govern their own lives. I welcome you adding clarity to why you consider Cuba the 'enemy'. Which to you justifies a blockade that witholds food and medical supplies!

Originally posted by Evakian
Oh no! In America there is freedom for college kids to choose when, why, and where to work! Unlike Cuba.

You are trying to justify forced labor?

Forced labor? Ok, whatever. You failed to mention Cubans don't worry about payng for college, healthcare, etc, etc.

Originally posted by Evakian
Oh really?

Well, of course it has to...because you said obviously at the end...because it so obvious...:rolleyes:

Even the bourgeois media has mentioned the structure of Cuba's government and armed forces, and how it's decentralized to the local level of neighborhood committees and isn't racially segregated.

Originally posted by Frogger
You are an apologist for communism so I would be surprised had you reacted any differently.

No, I'm not. I didn't say Cuba was perfect, ever. I have a few criticisms of it (for completely different reaons than the reactionaries here). My point was that for a third world country it's done exceptionally well and exceeded first world living standards in many areas. All because it puts people before profits.

how many times have you gone to cuba red?

Originally posted by Deepest Red
I welcome you adding clarity to why you consider Cuba the 'enemy'.

Any communist dictatorship that rapes the basic freedoms of mankind is an enemy of the United States of America.

Forced labor? Ok, whatever. You failed to mention Cubans don't worry about payng for college, healthcare, etc, etc.

So you are justifying it?
Unless they are going to those fields by choice, or in trade for the college, it is horrible.
=============================================

Deepest Red, what good is living a long life if you have no freedom?
What good is having an education if you cannot use it to better your life?

You repeatedly state how they have great healthcare, and great education...but that means nothing to me when they cannot protest the government, when there is no freedom of the press, and the economy is controlled by the state, where you are forced into labor even during your tenure in college.

All men are created equal, but it changes after that, communism brings down the powerful and raises up the impotent. Society must be free, and the government has no right to take away basic freedoms.

Communism is perhaps one of the worst systems of government imaginable. By control of the military, economy, mass media, and education systems they enforce their iron grip and step on people. No entrepreneurship here, forget about rewarding individual achievement. If i develop a cure for cancer, i want credit for helping mankind...not to get the same amount of respect and reward given to my neighbor who works on an assembly line refining sugar for a living.

It is the government's job to protect and respect the freedoms of the people, those that have the iniative and work ethic or even creativity to get ahead will do so, while the lazy of the society shall fall beneath. Communism seeks to dismantle fairness by using labels and mantras to seduce followers.

There is no worker's paradise in communism, if any can be found it lies in the bowels of capitalism. Peace may come from communism, because of political oppression. Bread may be granted, although unfairly. Land may be present, but not yours...and not because of your personal toils.

The system is designed to lie to humanity about the truths of the world and nature.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Certain medical supplies for advaned medical procedures, according to New Scientist magazine.

The lack of advanced medical supplies doesn't even come close to explaining the current state of Cuba and their economy.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
The lack of advanced medical supplies doesn't even come close to explaining the current state of Cuba and their economy.

Nor did I say that. You asked for one example of an item that Cuba could only get from the USA, and I gave you one. The military blockade blocks Cuba from getting much of what it needs (it's not an industrialized economy) and is internationally opposed.

Originally posted by Evakian
Any communist dictatorship that rapes the basic freedoms of mankind is an enemy of the United States of America.

You were clever to use the qualifier 'communist' - because as you must know Uncle Sam is and has been friendly and helpful to the most repressive regimes in history, such as fascist Spain, Colombia, Chile, Saudi Arabia...

Originally posted by Evakian
So you are justifying it?
Unless they are going to those fields by choice, or in trade for the college, it is horrible.

I don't even know what you're talking about, for starters.

Originally posted by Evakian
Deepest Red, what good is living a long life if you have no freedom?
What good is having an education if you cannot use it to better your life?

The living standards of Cubans have been raised dramatically under socialism in Cuba. This is pure rubbish.

Originally posted by Evakian
You repeatedly state how they have great healthcare, and great education...but that means nothing to me when they cannot protest the government, when there is no freedom of the press, and the economy is controlled by the state, where you are forced into labor even during your tenure in college.

It's a third world country. It's not too surprising that everyone has to contribute to the common good. Here in the USA people must work to go to college as well, and many people like me can't afford it still.

Originally posted by Evakian
All men are created equal, but it changes after that, communism brings down the powerful and raises up the impotent.

For once you got something about Communism correct. The point of communism is indeed to put the working class in power and ruthlessly suppress the lazy parasite bosses and their lackies.

Originally posted by Evakian
Society must be free, and the government has no right to take away basic freedoms.

Cubans enjoy far more basic freedoms than Americans. There was a fact I once saw that listed how many children internationally sleep on the streets at night. It added that not one was Cuban. :cool:

Originally posted by Evakian
Communism is perhaps one of the worst systems of government imaginable. By control of the military, economy, mass media, and education systems they enforce their iron grip and step on people. No entrepreneurship here, forget about rewarding individual achievement. If i develop a cure for cancer, i want credit for helping mankind...not to get the same amount of respect and reward given to my neighbor who works on an assembly line refining sugar for a living.

This is a complete abstraction that has nothing to do with reality. To begin with, no communist society has existed. The most that has been possible at this point in human development is socialism, which although is far more just and equal than capitalism, is still a far cry from communism.

What's more, your grasp of basic facts are deeply flawed. The New Economic Policy started by Lenin in the early 1920s was essentially capitalist restoration, as Russia and its satellite countries were far to underdeveloped to make the full plunge into communism. Cuba has long been the same way, and is actively encouraging capital to penetrate their economy. It already exists on a limited level. So your crying about the poor entrepreneurs is not only silly but not even valid.

Originally posted by Evakian
It is the government's job to protect and respect the freedoms of the people, those that have the iniative and work ethic or even creativity to get ahead will do so, while the lazy of the society shall fall beneath. Communism seeks to dismantle fairness by using labels and mantras to seduce followers.

Pure unmaterialist dogma.

Originally posted by Evakian
There is no worker's paradise in communism, if any can be found it lies in the bowels of capitalism. Peace may come from communism, because of political oppression. Bread may be granted, although unfairly. Land may be present, but not yours...and not because of your personal toils.

There's no paradise anywhere! In all the writings of Marx, I never came across this concept. This is pure propgaganda.

The idea is not that communism will create utopia or "paradise". That's a fundamentally flawed concept in the obviously hostile and unfriendly material reality we find ourselves in. The idea of communism is to expand the horizons of human freedom and potential, to do better. Marx likened it to the beginning of history, not the end, as it would be the first chance the masses had to govern their own destiny.

Originally posted by Evakian
The system is designed to lie to humanity about the truths of the world and nature.

ROFL.

What is this "nature" that communism lies about? I await this one anxiously.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Nor did I say that. You asked for one example of an item that Cuba could only get from the USA, and I gave you one. The military blockade blocks Cuba from getting much of what it needs (it's not an industrialized economy) and is internationally opposed.

There is no military blockade. That ended with the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The U.S. refuses to do business with Cuba, but Cuba is free to get what it wants and sell to any other country in this world. So to blame Cuba's economy on the "blockade" is a cop out.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
The U.S. refuses to do business with Cuba, but Cuba is free to get what it wants and sell to any other country in this world. So to blame Cuba's economy on the "blockade" is a cop out.

Nonsense. This is demonstratebly untrue - when Cuba had more trade (the USSR) it was better off. When that source of trade disappeared, Cuban society suffered. Now that Venezuala is conducting trade with Cuba, conditions are improving. It's not rocket science, nor is connecting the dots between the most powerful empire in history, the USA, placing an embargo on the tiny, underdeveloped island and its suffering.

one minute its a tiny underdeveloped nation the next minute they have it better then we do. "oh they have so many doctors!"

Originally posted by Deepest Red
You were clever to use the qualifier 'communist' - because as you must know Uncle Sam is and has been friendly and helpful to the most repressive regimes in history, such as fascist Spain, Colombia, Chile, Saudi Arabia...

Who said I agreed with this course of action?

I don't even know what you're talking about, for starters.

We were bringing up college students forced to labor is sugar fields, something of that nature.

The living standards of Cubans have been raised dramatically under socialism in Cuba.

At the expense of human rights.

This is pure rubbish.

Deepest Red, what good is living a long life if you have no freedom?
What good is having an education if you cannot use it to better your life?

The "ideal society" presented by communism is a nightmare, it transforms humans into animals.

For once you got something about Communism correct. The point of communism is indeed to put the working class in power and ruthlessly suppress the lazy parasite bosses and their lackies.

What of the lazy working class, or the hard-working leadership?

Cubans enjoy far more basic freedoms than Americans.

Okay, lets see them hold rallies, protests, petition the government, speak out on the news, and so forth.

There was a fact I once saw that listed how many children internationally sleep on the streets at night. It added that not one was Cuban.

Living standards, higher living standards more specifically, are not an indicator of freedom nor are they necessarily worth the trade-off.

Pure unmaterialist dogma.

Good argument, i can tell you won plenty of awards on the debate team in high school.

The idea of communism is to expand the horizons of human freedom and potential, to do better.

Yet it destroys freedoms and potential of the individual to do better.

What is this "nature" that communism lies about?

But unfairly stripping away the rewards of the hardworking and/or creative to support and create equilibrium with the lower classes. There are winners and losers, leaders and followers...that is the way nature flows.

Originally posted by Travh20
one minute its a tiny underdeveloped nation the next minute they have it better then we do. "oh they have so many doctors!"

Oh you silly fool. I've explained this many times. Let me try it again in terms even you can understand.

Cuba does not have any advanced industries. It relies on some agriculture and tourism basically. It is objectively underdeveloped, it fits with the definition of a third world, undeveloped country. No big industries like steel or technology. With me so far?

What capital it does have is invested in building its health care and education on a level unrivaled in any other nation, ever. It has achieved a first world living standard in many areas because of its policies. Its closest neighbors are amongst the poorest and worst off countries like Haiti, the Dominican Rep, Hondorus, Mexico, etc.

So we can see what socialism is capable of - if a tiny and backwards country like Cuba can achieve that, a lot more is possilbe for countries that have a lot more wealth, industry and so on.

Deepest Red,

Can you please explain why, if Communism is such a wonderful form of government no nation has ever voted in a free election to become Communist.

Deepest Red,
Nonsense. This is demonstratebly untrue - when Cuba had more trade (the USSR) it was better off. When that source of trade disappeared, Cuban society suffered. Now that Venezuala is conducting trade with Cuba, conditions are improving. It's not rocket science, nor is connecting the dots between the most powerful empire in history, the USA, placing an embargo on the tiny, underdeveloped island and its suffering.
Excuse me, but what, exactly, does the USSR cutting their trade with Cuba have to do with The United States? If I'm not mistaken, they were betrayed by the Russians, not us. As far as the "illegal" embargo is concerned, well, they can do business with whomever they want - just not America. It isn't our fault those people have no industry - it's a) location & planning, and b), a lack of resources. Neither of which is our fault. You seem to forget they pointed nuclear weapons at us with the intention of killing millions of innocent Americans because we "encouraged" Castro to give up his gig. I don't know if you're aware of this, but Jon Lee Anderson reported that after the crisis, Che Guevara told Sam Russell, a British correspondent for the socialist newspaper Daily Worker, that if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have fired them.

Yeah, these people are really compassionate.


My guess is you're either one of two things:

A) Cuban

OR

B) Retarded

Take your pick.

Can you please explain why, if Communism is such a wonderful form of government no nation has ever voted in a free election to become Communist. Since when have people ever been allowed to vote for the economic/political ideologies?

Oh and I suppose your bougeois sesnsitivites don't include voting as something you do by risking your life through actions towards a goal...

Lets not even mention the Zapatistas or Chavez...

And since when have the elites, who control the elections and run for office,ever allowed the people to vote back the fruits of their labor? Never happened, never will.

Your logic is idiotic. Its like saying, "well if blacks/women/mexicans/jews/asians are so smart how come they've never been the president of the US?"

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Since when have people ever been allowed to vote for the economic/political ideologies?
That's a pretty good question, actually.

Oh and I suppose your bougeois sesnsitivites don't include voting as something you do by risking your life through actions towards a goal...

Chavez was not elected as a Communist and having guerillas take over a country is not a free election.

Answer the question, Quarter Ton, when has a Communist government ever been freely elected by the people.

I'll answer it for you.


NEVER!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Nonsense. This is demonstratebly untrue - when Cuba had more trade (the USSR) it was better off. When that source of trade disappeared, Cuban society suffered. Now that Venezuala is conducting trade with Cuba, conditions are improving. It's not rocket science, nor is connecting the dots between the most powerful empire in history, the USA, placing an embargo on the tiny, underdeveloped island and its suffering.

2 things:

1) Cuba's "trade" with the USSR was more along the lines of the USSR writing a large check every month and getting little in return. That is a lot of why Cuba is suffering now.
2) Again, Cuba is absolutely, positively free to buy and sell to every other country in the world, including Canada. There is virtually nothing, animal vegetable, or mineral; low tech or high tech, that Cuba cannot get from any other western power in this world. The U.S. embargo, while completely stupid in my opinion, is not causing the suffering of Cubans.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
So we can see what socialism is capable of - if a tiny and backwards country like Cuba can achieve that, a lot more is possilbe for countries that have a lot more wealth, industry and so on.

So why are there so few socialist countries?

So why are there so few socialist countries?

I don't think socialism can work well on a scale larger than a country the size of Cuba. I think it will be left up to smaller sections within the larger countries to implement socialism. I think more should be done to make America more compatible with socialism, but not to change governments outright. There is no reason socialism cannot coexist with capitalism and a representative democracy. Well, we would need to have a representative democracy first...

Originally posted by Frogger
Deepest Red,

Can you please explain why, if Communism is such a wonderful form of government no nation has ever voted in a free election to become Communist.

Are you joking?

The CP still polls hugely in the Russian Duma, in the Czech Republic, the Ukraine, was voted into power in Vietnam and Italy (though blocked by the CIA). The KPD polled much larger than the Nazis until they were funded by the industrialists, they got 6 million votes at their peak.

The problem with Communists hasn't been getting elected. The problem has been that getting elected achieves fuck all. The working class has to seize power for itself and weild this power for its own interests, no party can do that for them.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Deepest Red,

Excuse me, but what, exactly, does the USSR cutting their trade with Cuba have to do with The United States?

It demonstrates that Cuba, deprived of a trade is worse off. Someone tried to say that the US embargo doesn't matter, that Cuba's problems are in effect its own fault. The reality is that Cuba was doing much better and is now poorer because of losing trade.

The US has huge influence as it controls much of international capital. The euro is starting to undermine this, but that's the situation up till now. That's hardly a secret. US policy to Cuba is not just American policy but extended to everywhere it has influence.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
My guess is you're either one of two things:

A) Cuban

OR

B) Retarded

Take your pick.

Of course, I couldn't "pick" either one of them you silly reactionary.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
So why are there so few socialist countries?

It took three to four centuries for the bourgeoisie to gain power and learn how to weild it. That revolution is still not completed (look at all the fuedal and semi-feudal countries around the world).

The proletariat (workers who own nothing, not even tools, and live by selling their labor alone) originated in the mid nineteenth century or so. It hasn't nearly been long enough, but we do have one genuinely socialist nation (Cuba) and another in a socialist transformation (Venezuala) where power is being transferred to the masses. Democratic councils are being formed at all levels so that the masses will actually run their nation, workplaces, etc directly.

There are many examples of failed workers revolutions to provide us with lessons and models for the future - Paris '68, Hungary '56, the Spanish Civil War, the Russian Revolution and so on.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Are you joking?

The CP still polls hugely in the Russian Duma, in the Czech Republic, the Ukraine, was voted into power in Vietnam and Italy (though blocked by the CIA). The KPD polled much larger than the Nazis until they were funded by the industrialists, they got 6 million votes at their peak.

The problem with Communists hasn't been getting elected. The problem has been that getting elected achieves fuck all. The working class has to seize power for itself and weild this power for its own interests, no party can do that for them.

In other words, no country has ever elected to go Communist. Every Communist country became communist at the point of a bayonet.

Like I said you "bougeois sensibilities" don't believe in a real vote.

Voting at the ballot box, while it can be very legitimate and bring about some change, risks nothing. Howevere when people decide that they will no longer allow themselves to be exploited by the capitalist system and rise up against it, they risk everything. You seem to place quite a bit on the 'privlidge that the elite grant you rather than the courage that average people can exhibit.

The Zapatistas are a truely Communistic (Anarcho-sydiclism) and Democratic(direct democracy) society. Any elective representative can be recalled at any time for any reason. They are nothing more that place hlders for the people. The Zapatistas met resistance only from government officials. A large majority of Mexicans support them. The indigenous people of Mexico was tired of having their representatives assassinated and their rights trampled on. They rose up and killed only government offcials attempting to stop them from reclaiming what is rightfully theirs. hey voted as a community to throw off the shackles of capitalism. Voting with their bodies and tehir future.

Chavez has been elected many times over. He is taking steps towards a true communist society. Which is exactly why the US wants to murder him. They removed him through lies that promted a military coup. It happened as a response to him nationalizing the countries oil refineries. He was returned to office becuase the average people of Venezuela took to the streets and said no we will not accept this. He again was elected in the recall. He has increased the well being of the lower classes drastically in the country. More teachers, more schools, more assistance for the needy. He uses true communist rhetoric. Calling himself worthless and the true power of the people as what he is trying to embody.

Communistic/Egalitarian societies have existed for a long time. The Indigenous peoples of almost very continent were at one time like this. However capitalist exploiters came and destroyed them with violence, famine and sickness. In these societies no one starved. No one went without medical treatment.

Greed violence and narcissism is what keeps communism from being widespread. The fact that one person can ruin it for the majority is why it isn't wide spread. So long as people aren't in the immediate threat of death they would rather ignore violence.

Suppose 10 people have a choclate bar and want to split it up. Now suppose 2 of these ten demand through threat of violence that they are th only ones to eat the candy. They will (almost always) end up with the candy because if the others were willing to share the goody then they will also be likely to make do without to avoid violence. 8 pro-communists defeated by 2 capitalistic assholes.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Like I said you "bougeois sensibilities" don't believe in a real vote.

Voting at the ballot box, while it can be very legitimate and bring about some change, risks nothing. Howevere when people decide that they will no longer allow themselves to be exploited by the capitalist system and rise up against it, they risk everything. You seem to place quite a bit on the 'privlidge that the elite grant you rather than the courage that average people can exhibit.

The Zapatistas are a truely Communistic (Anarcho-sydiclism) and Democratic(direct democracy) society. Any elective representative can be recalled at any time for any reason. They are nothing more that place hlders for the people. The Zapatistas met resistance only from government officials. A large majority of Mexicans support them. The indigenous people of Mexico was tired of having their representatives assassinated and their rights trampled on. They rose up and killed only government offcials attempting to stop them from reclaiming what is rightfully theirs. hey voted as a community to throw off the shackles of capitalism. Voting with their bodies and tehir future.

Chavez has been elected many times over. He is taking steps towards a true communist society. Which is exactly why the US wants to murder him. They removed him through lies that promted a military coup. It happened as a response to him nationalizing the countries oil refineries. He was returned to office becuase the average people of Venezuela took to the streets and said no we will not accept this. He again was elected in the recall. He has increased the well being of the lower classes drastically in the country. More teachers, more schools, more assistance for the needy. He uses true communist rhetoric. Calling himself worthless and the true power of the people as what he is trying to embody.

can you please explain to me why so many people risk their lives to flee communist countries and not the other way around? I have still yet to get an answer on this. i sit a capitalist lie?

can you please explain to me why so many people risk their lives to flee communist countries and not the other way around? I have still yet to get an answer on this. i sit a capitalist lie?

For the same reason no country has ever freely voted to become communist. Communism doesn't work in any society larger than tribal.

I've addressed that point repeatedly. A far smaller percentage of people immigrate from Cuba than from most countries in Latin America; no other Latin American country is allowed as many people to emigrate from it as Cuba; America accepts a number of Cubans who are documented murderers and criminals fleeing punishment, and so on.

The fact of the matter is that Cuba is a far freer and more humane society than the USA, a country that kills so many of its own people and invades so many countries exporting death while Cuba by contrast saves so many lives around the world with its doctors. Cuba has defied the empire successfully and is an inspiration to the working class everywhere.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Cuba is a far freer and more humane society than the USA, a country that kills so many of its own people and invades so many countries exporting death while Cuba by contrast saves so many lives around the world with its doctors. Cuba has defied the empire successfully and is an inspiration to the working class everywhere.

Bravo.

Well spoken.

I honestly don't understand what is keeping the two of you from moving to Cuba.

Originally posted by Frogger
I honestly don't understand what is keeping the two of you from moving to Cuba.

1. No habla espanol.

2. My friends and family are mostly here in the US.

3. My Irish skin would not do so well under the Cuban sun.

4. As Che Guevara himself said: "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most
important fight of all – you live in the heart of the beast."

Originally posted by Deepest Red
1. No habla espanol.

2. My friends and family are mostly here in the US.

3. My Irish skin would not do so well under the Cuban sun.

4. As Che Guevara himself said: "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most
important fight of all – you live in the heart of the beast."

1. Learn

2. Bring them with you

3. Wear suntan lotion

4. Stop reading Che Guevara

I honestly don't understand what is keeping the two of you from moving to Cuba.

Poor relationships between Cuba and the US over the past couple of decades MAY have a little influence on that, just maybe...

Gringitos - You crack me up. All of you. Have any of you ever immersed yourselves into Cuban-American culture? Do any of you really know how Cubans here or there feel about Castro and their system. Having a Mexican passport has enabled me the honor and terror of visiting this lost civilization. Only a select few would tell you that for no reason, other than fear, would that stand beside their dictating leader. Communism in theory, may seem to be the most fair, but it is also the surest way to produce terror and destruction and desire for more.

Originally posted by Divalatina
Gringitos - You crack me up. All of you. Have any of you ever immersed yourselves into Cuban-American culture? Do any of you really know how Cubans here or there feel about Castro and their system. Having a Mexican passport has enabled me the honor and terror of visiting this lost civilization. Only a select few would tell you that for no reason, other than fear, would that stand beside their dictating leader. Communism in theory, may seem to be the most fair, but it is also the surest way to produce terror and destruction and desire for more.

Bigots - you crack me up. All of you.

I live in an Hispanic neighborhood right now and I see Cuban flags everywhere. I've talked to a few Cubans and they've told me great things about their homeland, and they contrast it with the dog-eat-dog mentality of the U$A.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Bigots - you crack me up. All of you.

I live in an Hispanic neighborhood right now and I see Cuban flags everywhere. I've talked to a few Cubans and they've told me great things about their homeland, and they contrast it with the dog-eat-dog mentality of the U$A.

And yet they choose to live here and not in Cuba. Doesn't that tell you something Deepest Red?

Let's make a deal Deepest Red, we'll both move over to Cuba...employment is guaranteed so we'll both get jobs.

I will observe the amount of labor you do, and do less. If you lower your effort, i will too...to a greater extent even.

When we go home after work to our neighboring domiciles with the same furniture, same quality food, and same size building...I will wait to see how long you enjoy living under communist ideals.

When you see your family barely squeak by and none of your hard-earned income goes towards their personal income, you will undoubtedly question why you are starving to feed your children, and i sit back lazily enjoying spending time with mine.

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Bigots - you crack me up. All of you.

I live in an Hispanic neighborhood right now and I see Cuban flags everywhere. I've talked to a few Cubans and they've told me great things about their homeland, and they contrast it with the dog-eat-dog mentality of the U$A.

Ever thought of asking them why they live in the beautiful land of opportunity called the USA and not the unfair, unjust, life-sucking Cuba?

I mean...if Cuba is so good, why did they leave...and if they were born here, why not risk your life to head back to such a great place?

And before you answer...think about how you wouldn't even be free to express yourself under Castro's regime.

Bigots? WTF?

Long story short, some people like it, some don't. How hard is that to understand?

Originally posted by Deepest Red
Bigots - you crack me up. All of you.

I live in an Hispanic neighborhood right now and I see Cuban flags everywhere. I've talked to a few Cubans and they've told me great things about their homeland, and they contrast it with the dog-eat-dog mentality of the U$A.

thats why they are here right? why dont you look at the obvious jackass.

BIGOT?? You have got to be kidding me. I am a female Hispanic who has deep roots in another country. I am not a bigot, but I am not blind either.

Originally posted by Divalatina
BIGOT?? You have got to be kidding me. I am a female Hispanic who has deep roots in another country. I am not a bigot, but I am not blind either.
Don't waste your time, Diva - the people championing the "Cuban way of life" are undoubtedly a group of disillusioned, idealistic fools, and that's being nice considering the fact that they opt to live here. It’s hypocrisy in its worst form, period.

We see Cubans risking life and limb on rafts to sail to America. And not the other way around.

Why is this? It doesn't take more than a few mere seconds to figure out.

Is it because they are told lies? Surely a dictatorship with a controlled mass media does not speak of how much better of its neighbors are. And whatever news they do hear gives them a compelling enough reason to risk their very lives and undergo perilous struggles to live in this country.

If you consider Cuba to be such a wonderful society, why is that you do not risk life and limb to go there?

You wish to stay here and push for similar ways of life?
I am sorry, but that can never happen...as the ideals of communist countries directly infringe on many of the founding ideals of the United States of America in its most quintessential founding documents and practices.