This is a little off the wall, but I am trying to figure where I am in the brain.

When I am concious, that part which is I, me, the observer, the one relating to others and making decisions, seems to be just behind the eyes.

I seem to ride there in this molecular machine we call the body.

I can find nothing in science to describe what is me, and where I am located. Yet, I am there.

I may feel I am located just behind the eyes, maybe because they see, yet the part of the brain that "sees' is actually located in the back of the brain.

Where does a blind man feel that his concious is located I wonder?

When you are thinking and aware, where does it seem that you are located??

Comments welcome!

You might want to try spending a few hours in a sensory deprivation chamber, that is, if you care enough about the question to want to take such steps. I haven't done it myself, but I am sure you could find something useful out of the experience to help you answer that question. Or maybe drop a hit of acid, something I've always wanted to try. Maybe one day...

I would wager that the vast majority of people would also think their 'self' portion also lies somewhere behind their eyes.

I don't think the scientific community will ever distinguish a self from consciousness. That is just one of those grounds that scientists will refuse to tread upon, and anybody who decides to break that norm will be labled a practitioner of pseudoscience and occultism.

It is up to us to answer these kinds of questions for ourselves. I don't think society can ever define these things satisfactorily for us.

Just my uninformed, armchair philosopher type, comments.

I do start to get strange sensations whenever I move my sense of self from behind my eyes. My head and body start to feel strange. It isn't something I care to experiment a whole lot with right now. All that consciousness and meditation stuff has lost its lustre for me. I want to explore the outside world right now, I've done plenty of exploring of my inner landscape.

If you care to hear my ramblings on all manner of things that I am unqualified to speak of, feel free to read my blog. I take all of the understandings I got from making that inner search and apply it to everything. You can find it by clicking the little website button over my post to the right. It would be interesting to see your comments on them.

Nap, I read some of your site, will read more when I have time later.

You speak of words to accomplish.
The human brain seems to work off pictures.
Words are o.k. if you can convert them to pictures that the brain can understand, I believe.

I believe more will be discovered in the study of what man has called quantam physics (multiple possibilities).

True, so many are held back by handed-down negative attitudes.
I believe negativity to be an addiction in most people.
I have seen some people try to break the negative dependency thru positive thinking and fail, then give it up saying it does not work.
The problem was that a full day of negative thinking was attempted to be overcome with a small smear of positive thinking.
The positive thinking must be practiced until it replaces the addiction of negative thinking.

Once the positive outlook becomes the norm, the infinite avenues of positive outcomes can be explored.
This aspect is much more attractive than the infinite avenues of negative outcomes that most people attract and explore thru negative thinking.

I have progressed to the point of self control that would make the exploration of acid unnecessary.

If positive thinking were to replace negative thinking, nothing would change, in my opinion. It isn't that I think it isn't possible, I just think that the best path is the natural path.

I think that everything one does is an obstruction to what one truly wants. I think that it isn't so much negative thinking that is harmful, but any thinking at all, whether it be positive or negative.

The follies of the positive thinker can be easily seen in the movie, Spanglish in which one of the leads lives her entire life through positive thinking, yet almost loses her husband and family due to the foolishness of her thinking.

Thinking itself keeps one from accessing the world as it is. It divorces the thinker from the rest of the world, and is bound to end in failure.

But we cannot stop thinking. We seem to be forever working against our true desires and natures. We think we want this or that, but we do not want it at all, it is just a foolish occupation of the mind. Our true desire may be to be a poet, yet we think we want to be a doctor. Every minute spent thinking and acting to be a doctor will forever be in vain, because your true desire is to be a poet. No amount of positive or negative thinking will ever help us to discover that which we really want, and so it will all be in vain. I think only once we stop thinking to a degree, and start listening to what our selves really want, can we ever hope to make any progress.

I am amused by your declaration of self-control, and your claim that that somehow makes exploration of acid unneccessary. If you haven't tried it before, how can you say it is unneccessary? Is it that you can bring about states of consciousness that resemble an acid trip without the drug? That might be an adequate reason, well to me anyway.

In my mind, there is no such thing as progress. It is a misnomer that names the exact opposite of the thing we are trying to achieve. Real progress would be the realisation of what you really are, and in that case, you are not progressing at all. You just are. No progress needs to be made. If your true desire is to be a poet, you would just start writing poetry, without caring whether you are a good poet or not. If your true desires were being fulfilled, you wouldn't care. There woudn't be any progress at all. You would already be there.

I think quantum physics has much yet to teach us, but I think that in the end, when there is nowhere left to go scientifically, we will still have our social and personal problems to solve. Science can never bring us a panacea, in my opinion. I think humanity will go through a similar process to the enlightenment where we are disabused of our illusions about science and its promise for mankind. It might help us live longer, jump higher and punch harder, but it can never solve our most basic problems, and the symptoms that come from them.

When you are thinking and aware, where does it seem that you are located??

If I must answer, i would say...perhaps...The Heart

Where does a blind man feel that his concious is located I wonder?

Man sees much more than through the eyes, human existence is not defined by visual experiences alone. Ray Charles, the late soul musician, was blind for almost all of his life; he managed to create wonderful music that is adored worldwide, he lived a rich life full of tragedy and passion.
Love, Hate, the human goes from a broad array of emotions we cannot begin to understand. We hear, we touch, we see, we taste, we smell, but in the end...they are subservient to what we truly do as a human- feel.

Excerpt from the movie Equilibrium

Mary: Let me ask you something. Why are you alive?
John Preston: I'm alive... I live... to safeguard the continuity of this great society. To serve Libria.
Mary: It's circular. You exist to continue your existence. What's the point?
John Preston: What's the point of your existence?

Mary: To feel.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
If positive thinking were to replace negative thinking, nothing would change, in my opinion. It isn't that I think it isn't possible, I just think that the best path is the natural path.
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Dan:
Natural path?
===============

I think that everything one does is an obstruction to what one truly wants. I think that it isn't so much negative thinking that is harmful, but any thinking at all, whether it be positive or negative.Quote.
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Dan:
I know that some diciplines teach the blank screen ideas are best.
But I believe that the brain is naturally programed to think. It is constantly busy, even in sleep. I think direction/awareness is the key.
=========================================

The follies of the positive thinker can be easily seen in the movie, Spanglish in which one of the leads lives her entire life through positive thinking, yet almost loses her husband and family due to the foolishness of her thinking.Quote.
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Dan:
Common sense must come into play. One must be able to see the endless possibilities and choose the correct one for them.
=========================

Thinking itself keeps one from accessing the world as it is. It divorces the thinker from the rest of the world, and is bound to end in failure.Quote.
====================
Dan:
The world as it is, is only one perception. When perception changes the world you see changes. Different realities open up.
==========================

But we cannot stop thinking. We seem to be forever working against our true desires and natures. We think we want this or that, but we do not want it at all, it is just a foolish occupation of the mind. Our true desire may be to be a poet, yet we think we want to be a doctor. Every minute spent thinking and acting to be a doctor will forever be in vain, because your true desire is to be a poet. No amount of positive or negative thinking will ever help us to discover that which we really want, and so it will all be in vain. I think only once we stop thinking to a degree, and start listening to what our selves really want, can we ever hope to make any progress.Quote.
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Dan:
Allowing one's self to see the endless possibilities of realities gives one the opportunity to find contentment. We are taught to accept other peoples realities from birth. Daring to accept the possibility of creating your own reality is a big step for most people. We are caught up in the comfort of taught realities that have limitations self-imposed, usually leading to dis-comfort.
Positive thinking is but a step in the right direction.

Not realizing that endless possibilities are open to you is to accept the fact that you are already near death, and doomed to a life of inner discontentment. Hence, so many negative unhappy people living in circumstances that one would think they would be happy. Such as the rich man that commits suicide. A poor guy would think that he was so foolish.
=================================

I am amused by your declaration of self-control, and your claim that that somehow makes exploration of acid unneccessary. If you haven't tried it before, how can you say it is unneccessary? Is it that you can bring about states of consciousness that resemble an acid trip without the drug? That might be an adequate reason, well to me anyway. Quote.
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Dan:
Because I can see the infinite realities available to me. There is no need for artificial assistance.
===============================

In my mind, there is no such thing as progress. It is a misnomer that names the exact opposite of the thing we are trying to achieve. Real progress would be the realisation of what you really are, and in that case, you are not progressing at all. You just are. No progress needs to be made. If your true desire is to be a poet, you would just start writing poetry, without caring whether you are a good poet or not. If your true desires were being fulfilled, you wouldn't care. There woudn't be any progress at all. You would already be there. Quote.
==============
Dan:
Progress, to me, is to leave behind the self-imposed chains of handed-down thinking. Once this is done, the things that truly make you happy will come naturally. They are a natural reality available to you. Hidden now, by wrong choices.
===============================

I think quantum physics has much yet to teach us, but I think that in the end, when there is nowhere left to go scientifically, we will still have our social and personal problems to solve. Science can never bring us a panacea, in my opinion. I think humanity will go through a similar process to the enlightenment where we are disabused of our illusions about science and its promise for mankind. It might help us live longer, jump higher and punch harder, but it can never solve our most basic problems, and the symptoms that come from them.
=============================
Dan:
The answer to our problems is here and now. Science does not have to solve the problem for us.
If you speak of humanity as a whole I will agree, but we as individuals have a choice of accepting the realities of others or exploring our own realities. Once the potential various realities are realized it is hard to go back to societies accepted practice of a constant, unchangeable, stereotype, blueprint of one reality.
To realize that you can create your own reality is true freedom.

Originally posted by Evakian
When you are thinking and aware, where does it seem that you are located??

If I must answer, i would say...perhaps...The Heart

Where does a blind man feel that his concious is located I wonder?

Man sees much more than through the eyes, human existence is not defined by visual experiences alone. Ray Charles, the late soul musician, was blind for almost all of his life; he managed to create wonderful music that is adored worldwide, he lived a rich life full of tragedy and passion.
Love, Hate, the human goes from a broad array of emotions we cannot begin to understand. We hear, we touch, we see, we taste, we smell, but in the end...they are subservient to what we truly do as a human- feel.
======================================
Evak, I meant in no way to take away from the abilities of a sightless person.
I merely wondered if, due to the fact that I can see, I feel that my conciousness is located near the eyes.
Something within us thinks and observes. I seek where this being we call us, is housed. Is it part of or separate of the brain?

The natural path.

Something that defies definition entirely. But, let me at least make an attempt.

It is not a path at all, but a realization. The realization that we cannot know anything, cannot understand anything, cannot predict anything, cannot communicate with anybody, cannot do anything. It is also the realisation of the exact opposite of those things. That life is utterly pointless, and that there is nothing at all worth doing.

The natural path is what you do once you realise all those things. It is a natural spontaneous reaction to the events of life without trying to contain them in your thoughts.

It has no teachers, because it cannot be taught. Some liken it to enlightenment, but that would be entirely missing the point.

But I believe that the brain is naturally programed to think. It is constantly busy, even in sleep. I think direction/awareness is the key.

Certainly, but I don't believe that direction and awareness are the keys to anything. The brain will continuously think, it is true, but I think that trying to direct its thoughts is an exercise in folly for the same reason I don't like meditation. Once cannot direct and be aware at the same time. It is either one or the other. I don't have any problems with a person playing around with their thoughts, that is what they are there for, but I cannot condone making a life's practice out of such a discipline.

The attempt to direct thoughts is akin to trying to be a doctor when you want to be a poet. The mind has its own rhythm, its own method, and any attempt by you to supplant that method on a long-term basis is setting yourself up for failure.

One can be aware of them, but your awareness has its own rhythm as well. I find that I am aware of exactly the things I need to be aware of exactly when I need to be aware of them. I have no need to control my awareness, because I am not trying to get anywhere or create anything. I can just relax and have fun with it.

Allowing one's self to see the endless possibilities of realities gives one the opportunity to find contentment.

Short term contentment, it boils down to. I cannot imagine actually wanting to be jacked into that kind of information flow on anything longer than a short-term, satori-like basis, just like taking drugs. Why bother going through the disciplines, when you can take drugs and do the same thing? Unless you get off on that sort of thing. I do not.

I cannot imagine that the long-term effects on the psyche would be very good. We have been evolutionarily chosen to hunt deer, not alter our consciousnesses.

As it is, when the satori ends, the bills still have to be paid and the wife still needs attention. You might be retired, and have all the time in the world to explore such things, but chances are there is something in your life that needs attention a lot more than the cosmic flow of life.

What you are speaking of seems to be an entertainment not unlike reading books. A nice diversion, but it won't provide everlasting happiness. I think wireheading (direct stimulation of the brain by electrical impulse) provides a far better promise.

Also, contentment for me equals death. I would not wish contentment on anybody.

Because I can see the infinite realities available to me.

I somewhat doubt that. No matter what you can see, I am positive that it doesn't even approach infinity. The mind is incapable of handling that.

But it is interesting, these claims. How do you see them? Is it a seeing at all? Are you daydreaming? Do you have to enter a special state in order to do this, or does it come naturally? Did you have to learn any mental disciplines like Zen? Does it come with meditation? What exactly do you see?

Progress, to me, is to leave behind the self-imposed chains of handed-down thinking.

I do not think this is possible. One may have interesting experiences where one 'thinks' one is throwing down chains of thinking, and be 'better' off than before, but I think the only thing that is really happening is that the mind is changing focus. Nothing actually changes, except for what one is paying attention to. It is not progress at all, just a slight change in attitude. Regardless of what one may think, the same patterns of behavior will rule the subconscious mind, because it is not so easily changed.

The answer to our problems is here and now.

A sentiment I fully agree with. The scope of that solution though, requires a complete transformation of the psyche. It is possible, but only for the truly brave, or the truly foolish, the differance between which lies not in my mind.

That understanding, in my experience, comes only gradually. But, I find, that as the understanding makes its way into the mind, time itself lengthens out and slows down.

The understanding is quite different for each person. I find that something interesting happens to people when they come into contact with me and learn my way of doing things. It sets fire to their old way of doing things, even if the dynamic of the interactions make it look like they are the ones teaching me. I have no idea if it helps them or not, but they definately seem changed, if only a little bit.

Wherever I go, I tend to find the most interesting people. Our interactions lead to some pretty incredible experiences. Inevitably, I feel that we are both benefitted by the exchange, even though it often doesn't look like it on the surface.

In all the cases I can think of, and I have dozens or so to recount, I was the one in the position of power, no matter what it looked like on the surface. People inevitably have a sense of awe about me.

When I go back and look at what really happened in hindsight, I realize that I am always the one with the, I guess you could say, 'correct' frame of mind. Which is weird because I don't believe that anything is more correct than anything else. We are all wrong, and the idea of being right will forever be an illusion.

But the realization always, without fail, hits me that I was the one correct, even if I didn't believe it at the time.

Which has led to a strange juxtaposition of belief sets. I am never right, but at the same time, I am always right.

Which has led to the type of ego you see me exhibit here. I am interested in exploring it, and what I would call my understanding, by throwing it willy-nilly against others.

Perhaps one day I can actually be proved wrong. I don't think it is possible, because I just don't believe in right or wrong, truth or falsehood. Yet, as far back as I remember, I have never been wrong, and have always been right.

It is a strange existance, yet extremely fulfilling.

maybe a blind person is just behind the ear? maybe a blind and deaf person is at the finger tips? I would say I am in my whole body except when I have a stomach thingy:D Where do you feel you are when you are having sex or eatting an awsome meal? How about when you take a walk in the woods hearing sounds smelling fresh air and seeing natures wonders? It is proven that smells can form our mood. If you smell g-moms apple pie you would probably have a better mood then if you smell the sweat from Fat Basturd :D{powers movie}.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
[B]The natural path.

Something that defies definition entirely. But, let me at least make an attempt.

It is not a path at all, but a realization. The realization that we cannot know anything, cannot understand anything, cannot predict anything, cannot communicate with anybody, cannot do anything. It is also the realisation of the exact opposite of those things. That life is utterly pointless, and that there is nothing at all worth doing.Quote.
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Dan:
To me, an acceptance of this concept, as a reality, would be to lie to myself. Decades of research and personal experience have shown me that the capabilities of man exceed these expectations.
It examples the handed-down, self-imposed, limitations I spoke of earlier.
============================

Certainly, but I don't believe that direction and awareness are the keys to anything. The brain will continuously think, it is true, but I think that trying to direct its thoughts is an exercise in folly for the same reason I don't like meditation. Once cannot direct and be aware at the same time. It is either one or the other. I don't have any problems with a person playing around with their thoughts, that is what they are there for, but I cannot condone making a life's practice out of such a discipline. Quote.

=============================
Dan: Undirected thoughts lead to an undirected life.
Awareness brings about the realization that you are in control of your environment to a certain extent. You do not have to settle for the results of someone elses reality.
Meditation can lead to frustration, I personally do not practice it.
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As it is, when the satori ends, the bills still have to be paid and the wife still needs attention. You might be retired, and have all the time in the world to explore such things, but chances are there is something in your life that needs attention a lot more than the cosmic flow of life. Quote.
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Dan:
I am not retired.
We are part of the cosmic flow, we cannot escape this fact.
What I speak of requires no effort, no exploration, no time consuming attention. Only the awareness that we are not at the mercy of the random happenings of other peoples realities, and how to escape its clutches. Granted, it is not an easy concept to grasp. Especially here in limited words of communication.

Let me try to give an example of accepted reality.
We have been taught to pretty well view everything around us as either empty space or solid matter. Yet, matter is not solid.
If you go down to the atomic level of matter it is comprised of a neucleus and at least one electron with a vacuum between the two. Now go to the neucleus itself. It is comprised of sub-atomic particles with space between them, and disappears from view at times. Quantum researchers wonder where it goes.
I will stick my neck out and say that it traverses time. The atom you saw disappear momentarily today could be the same atom that you saw momentarily appear yesterday or tomorrow.
Far-fetched, sure. But, if particles on the quantum level are akin to electrical information, as I suspect, and we being comprised of the same particles, can in effect produce change on a quantum level with electrical thought.

This is a clumsy attempt for me to try to put into words a concept that is already hard to grasp.
==================================


But it is interesting, these claims. How do you see them? Is it a seeing at all? Are you daydreaming? Do you have to enter a special state in order to do this, or does it come naturally? Did you have to learn any mental disciplines like Zen? Does it come with meditation? What exactly do you see?Quote.
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Dan:
No, to the above questions, except yes- it is natural for everyone.

What do I see? A universe of unlimited choices and realities existing until I take a mental snap-shot of the one I want, then no other reality exists.
=================================



In all the cases I can think of, and I have dozens or so to recount, I was the one in the position of power, no matter what it looked like on the surface. People inevitably have a sense of awe about me.
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Dan:
Since I am not in a power play situation here, I guess it is understandable that this awe you speak of has escaped me.

To me, an acceptance of this concept, as a reality, would be to lie to myself.

Certainly. You have to pursue your own conscious reality to the fullest before you can accept the fact that it is a lie. I would say that most people do not realize the things I am speaking of until they are on their deathbed, and they have the opportunity to look at their life without the rose-colored lenses on, though many don't get that far even on their deathbed, because they are afraid.

Decades of research and personal experience have shown me that the capabilities of man exceed these expectations.

Without a doubt. One may go very far afield indeed before finding one's true path. There is nothing wrong with the research or the experience. Just because it is a lie does not mean it should not be explored.

Perhaps you would benefit from a little ongoing story of mine.

I recently moved back to Utah to continue my martial arts studies. This is serious, hardcore stuff we are talking here, nothing like the dumbed and watered-down sport that is Karate. This includes a lot of energy work and meditation exercises. It is possible, to build enough energy to do seemingly impossible things with it, like breaking metal objects and healing the body. What is also possible is to train the blind to 'see', cultivating an awareness of objects around you using that energy.

I was part of one of the only schools in America to teach this incredible knowledge to people. It is inestimable, the amount of good that would be done by bringing this to Americans.

But all of the higher level students, have left, leaving the two founders with a shattered husk of a once-great school.

The reason? Seven of them. Lust, Greed, Gluttony, Pride, Sloth, Wrath, and Envy. They could not keep it together under the odious weight of these deadly sins.

Right now, I am hoping to bring one of the top students out here to my area, so that I can learn from him. One day, I hope to carry the torch for another school, and I will do my very best to keep them from destroying my school.

Undirected thoughts lead to an undirected life.

The very best kind of life I think a person is capable of. In my eyes, a lack of purpose is an excellent thing, and keeps you from getting sidetracked in the ever-shifting flow of life.

Awareness brings about the realization that you are in control of your environment to a certain extent. You do not have to settle for the results of someone elses reality.

Certainly. I believe that it is the exercise of that control, as a philosophy of life, which is problematic. Control if you must, but the real awareness is in being able to give it up.

Giving up awareness, giving up direction, as methods for improving one's life, end in the discovery of one's true path through life. One is not following another's reality. The reality that one is left with when one drops all other realities is one's own.

What I speak of requires no effort, no exploration, no time consuming attention.

I have found in my experiences that it takes an extraordinary amount of effort just to see what is in front of one's face so that one might learn from whatever it is existance is trying to teach us. I do not think it is possible to short-cut the expending of effort in order to gain.

What do I see? A universe of unlimited choices and realities existing until I take a mental snap-shot of the one I want, then no other reality exists.

Unless you are a multi-millionaire, with scores of love interests, I am going to have to disbelieve that claim. Since you say you are not retired, and still part of the cosmic flow, my guess would be that you only see a small subset of realities, and mistake that for an infinite thing, and that you actually have a choice as to which reality you are picking. I think that your subconscious is doing the picking for you, doing the job of existance and confronting you with only the reality it wants you to see.

I too, once thought I could see like you do, until I made the effort to confront what was in front of my face, and realized my limitations. Now, I satisfy myself with pretending I actually know something of value, and claiming that it is actually better than anything else.

Since I am not in a power play situation here, I guess it is understandable that this awe you speak of has escaped me.

In this particular situation, I am making that impossible, on purpose. It is not my purpose in these interactions on allforums.net to continue old patterns. I do not wish to be held in that sense. But you are wrong when you say that you are not in a power play situation. The power play always exists, whether or not we care to admit it, or give it attention at all.

Even though I say that, I still seem to be taking a position of power. It seems to be unavoidable, from my perspective. I do not want it, I want to be tossed around and taught things, because it seems so unnatural for someone so young to do these things, but existance has something else in mind for me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Napsterbater
I have found in my experiences that it takes an extraordinary amount of effort just to see what is in front of one's face so that one might learn from whatever it is existance is trying to teach us. I do not think it is possible to short-cut the expending of effort in order to gain.Quote.
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First, good luck in the establishing of the school you wish to share. The only reason you would not have it is if you choose not to.

The effort, you speak of above, is reverse to my thinking. To me an effort must be expended to not see.
Existance is not the teacher, you are. All that exists awaits at your beck and call, eager to learn from you that which you wish it to do to assist you. This is one reality, why would a person choose another that causes difficulty?

It is interesting to me that you speak of being a multi-millionaire with several love interests. If you desire these things simply create the reality that includes them. They will come to you.
But, would it not be just as well to live in a reality of possibilities that includes the things that money could buy without the necessity of earning it? To merely instruct for it to be brought to you? It is possible.
======================


Even though I say that, I still seem to be taking a position of power. It seems to be unavoidable, from my perspective. I do not want it, I want to be tossed around and taught things, because it seems so unnatural for someone so young to do these things, but existance has something else in mind for me.Quote.
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Dan:
Feel free to take any position that is comfortable to you. It has no effect upon me nor any effect on what is really happening. If you choose to view yourself in a power position when you communicate with me, it is fine. I have the power to allow this to happen. You see, the statements that I have made here, to you, are a key to a lock. What you do with it is up to you. Sure, I have not told you everything, but I sence in you a need for labored exploration for that which you discover and prize. Self-imposed but never-the-less your reality.

Dan, you might be interested in a good book on how the brain works. "The Emperors New Mind" by Roger Penrose is an excellent book on the subject. He is a Nobel Prize winning physicist and spent ten years writing this book. It was voted the most influential book in science for the 1990's. I recomend it highly.

The only reason you would not have it is if you choose not to.

Naturally. I might choose something else in life. But there is no reason I cannot have it all, and I am going to do everything in my power to grab it.

Existance is not the teacher, you are.

Sounds a little narcissistic to me. In the end, I think you are probably right, but I am still going to try to learn everything I can from existance.

This is one reality, why would a person choose another that causes difficulty?

For amusement purposes. A life without strife is boring.

It is interesting to me that you speak of being a multi-millionaire with several love interests. If you desire these things simply create the reality that includes them.

I am attempting to do exactly that. But it isn't going to fall out of the sky just because I wish it. I have to examine in myself the qualities and attributes that keep me from attaining them. Then I have to decide if it is worth it to go through the effort to get them. I am not willing to set aside too much time in order to get rich. I am willing to do that to attract lovers. But there is no reason that I cannot have it all, doing exactly what I am doing now. That is the natural path. Doing, yet not doing.

I want an assload of cash, but I am not willing to do stupid things to get it. That makes it more difficult. I have to increase my perceptive powers to find out what the best course of action is to get it, and keep my dreams intact. That takes time and effort.

It would be easy if that were all I wanted. But my desires are extremely complex.

It has no effect upon me nor any effect on what is really happening.

This is read by me as a subconscious attempt to grab the power flow out of my hands. If you really didn't care, you would have never mentioned it.

I have the power to allow this to happen.

Certainly you do. But it would take effort for you to change the pattern of the conversation. I doubt that you would want to put yourself through that, which would explain the next statement.

You see, the statements that I have made here, to you, are a key to a lock. What you do with it is up to you.

You do not wish to make the effort, you just make such statements without the attempt to connect personally with me. The words by themselves are meaningless. It is the content behind the words that is really communicated. As they are, the words aren't the key to anything, except perhaps an interesting head-trip.

Sure, I have not told you everything, but I sence in you a need for labored exploration for that which you discover and prize.

It is just a need to get past my bullshit detector. If it takes labored exploration of points and concepts to do that, then so be it. It took me all of ten minutes to decide to get involved in my martial arts. Watching them break huge stacks of steel and concrete did it for me.

But when it comes to our interaction right now, I am willing to put forth the effort to learn what you are trying to convey, if you are willing to do the work as well, to try to teach a bright, but difficult, student. I have no need for power.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Napsterbater
I am attempting to do exactly that. But it isn't going to fall out of the sky just because I wish it.
============================
Dan:
Do not confuse the things that I have told you with wishing.
============================



But when it comes to our interaction right now, I am willing to put forth the effort to learn what you are trying to convey, if you are willing to do the work as well, to try to teach a bright, but difficult, student. I have no need for power.Quote.
==============================
Dan:
Nap, it is not that I do not wish to expend the effort to help you fully understand the things that I have said here.
I feel that I have the short-coming of not being unable to do it in print.

I had a young college student drive down from Montgomery, Alabama and spend most of Sunday with me to learn. We covered much. Yet, even this amount of one-on-one was not enough. He has basic concepts to work with, this will help him.
Right now I would suggest that you read and re-read the things that I spoke of here. Give some time. A light might come on.

Plan your day to effect the quantum field around you.
Self is intangible yet it can effect the future, present, and past which exist at the same time and space.
Plan to influence the material properties around you to bring about the things you desire. The reality that you seek.

You can influence the future, environment, people, space of which you are connected directly at its fundamental level.
Be an effective creator.

Desire no judgement, hate nor chaos.

Attempt what we have talked about. But, when you plan your day ask for tangible proof that you are going in the right direction.
Some out of the norm thing to happen each day to show you that the information I have given you is the truth. A test to see if I have given you true information.

It can fall into place with what I have given you in this discussion.
A light can suddenly come on to give you the answer.
But, be prepared to be shocked. Even a little frightened. For if you learn that you can control your environment your first thought will be a fear of negative thinking for what it might bring to you. Do not fear this because the aspect of fear is negative. There is a built in protector, you cannot harm yourself. Picture only that which you wish to accomplish. Let it overcome the self.

Remember: Test it. Ask it to show you a sign in a way you do not expect that you are on the correct path.
Good luck. Keep me informed.

I think perhaps I miscommunicated. I am not willing to actually work at it and integrate it into my consciousness. I don't believe it can be of any help whatsoever. What I am willing to do is listen to and try to understand and learn it.

I know not where you got these thoughts, or what they have done for you in your life, but I can be absolutely sure that they will not help me. Because I am not trying to get anywhere in my life. I am totally fulfilled. My life is a grand amusement, full of little adventures. I am not about to give that up for a life's teaching from some old fart whose ideas I can deconstruct with a simple act of will.

I don't think you would be able to handle my intense Socratic questioning on your every word and statement were we to ever meet in person.

I feel that I have the short-coming of not being unable to do it in print.

Surely you can create that?

I had a young college student drive down from Montgomery, Alabama and spend most of Sunday with me to learn. We covered much. Yet, even this amount of one-on-one was not enough. He has basic concepts to work with, this will help him.

That explains much. I did not know that you actually have formal students. How many? It may interest you to know that I have one student. I work with her on a strictly informal basis, though.

With her, I do not need sit down lessons or even to teach in person. All I do is be myself, the same person I am here at allforums.net. Yet she claims that my very words do to her exactly what you are saying your words will do to me. She does not need to understand what I am saying, the words carry my unique authority, and without any work whatsoever, they seem to change her very being.

What I think I can do for you is to cultivate that kind of authority in your words, so that you can reach far more people. Your words may not be able to touch me, but they are certain to be able to touch many others. What I think I am here for is to teach the teachers. To get them to hold themselves to a higher standard than they think is necessary, so that they might reach more people. I think it is an admirable profession, so I am willing to donate time and effort into showing teachers how to truly teach.

I think that you will find that it is the smallest of things that keep your message from being heard. I can show you how to be aware of these smallest of indicators. I think that a sharp attention to detail is key to getting your ideas across.

If you like, I can even deconstruct your attempt here to teach. I think you could learn much from the attempt.

Nap, I am sorry that you were under the impression that I was attempting to teach you.
We merely had a discussion.
I do not have, want, or try to attract "students."
I have merely coached a few people that I thought worthy of changes in their lives.

Your attempt to shake me will always fail, the words you used in your last post tell me a lot about where you are in life.
I am sorry.

I actually used your questions to put forth some material for others to read and consider.

Your attempt to shake me will always fail, the words you used in your last post tell me a lot about where you are in life.
I am sorry.

No worries. That is what I do, shake people up, get them to think about their lives and where they are going. If you don't want that input, it doesn't bug me. I will search elsewhere, and bring my light to others. Time is too short to spend on people unreceptive to my ideas.

Then again, I am just interacting naturally with others here, without attempting to control my interactions. If I am trying to shake you up, then I think maybe you need shaking up, and existance sent me here to do just that for you. That would certainly explain why you do not answer my questions.

I am interested in what you might think about where I am in life. From the context of the sentence, I can only conclude that it is some sort of negative thing you want me to realize. If that is true, why do you not just say it? I have no problems with it, and rather, expect it after my unflattering questions.

But I think you have the wrong idea when you talk of a discussion. That is two people trying to teach each other. I have no problems with that, and I don't think you should either. I expect others to try to teach me, and I try to teach them as best as I can. I believe there is something I can learn from everybody, something I can apply to my own reality.

If you have a college student drive down to be coached by you, that is a teacher-student relationship, no matter what you might think of the dynamic. You may be avoiding the issue, but the drive to teach and be heard is a core desire of the human condition. Denying it won't get you anywhere, and will in fact keep that desire from being fully fulfilled, allowing you to move on to other, more unselfish pursuits.

Now, back to my original post.
Although I may feel that my awareness is inside my head, I do not believe it to be a part of the brain that can be located by science.
I believe it to be more of a non-tangible energy field.
An energy field interacting with the brain, but not located in a particular region.

This energy field would not require the body, but the body would require this energy field, and a healthy brain, to function in what we would call a normal mode. I say a healthy brain because it is required to direct every day, bodily, functions.

This energy field would leave the body when it could no longer serve its purpose.

I really think you would enjoy "The Emperor's New Mind". It is an examination of what quantum physics has to tell us about how the mind works. It doesn't have all the answers, but it does attempt to explain within the limits of physics how it is possible for thought and conciousness to exist.
Among the more important points is that human thinking is not digital, but is analog. That is to say that humans do not use an on/off or yes/no thought pattern. Instead they recognize all the intervening values between 0 and 1. We think in terms of probability rather than certainty.
What you describe as energy fields undoubtedly exist in some form. Certainly electrical fields and magnetic fields exist around neurons. As the neurons charge and discharge their electrical potential, the fields are altered. This effects change in the quantum mechanical environment of the brain.
How this results in conciousness is not known yet, but it is a fertile field for study.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I am not about to give that up for a life's teaching from some old fart whose ideas I can deconstruct with a simple act of will.

Napsters mommy now takes him to his room, puts him over her knee and gives him a spanking for being disrespectfull.




Dan ??? If the body is the host for the energy and the body dies where does the energy go? Is there another unseen host or does it just go everywhere? Can the energy after being a unit for so long learn how to stay together, becomming something like a ghost? Most of us have good and bad energy{love hate} do you think this would seperate? If it did seperate then would we still be the individual?

Thanks Imagineer, I will try to pick a copy up one day for information. Right now, I am purposely trying to stay away from the information of "experts" for a while. I am trying to influence my conciousness to provide me with answers. So far it has been an interesting process.

This resulting conciousness you speak of, I believe, was here before man.
Since it is apparant to me that this conciousness can create effects, it is possible that it may have brought about changes for man to be created. "It", may have experimented over a long period of time for the perfect host.

Far-fetched thinking, I know, but it could explain in a scientific way, the origin of man.
Probably not a very well received idea.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mad dog
Dan ??? If the body is the host for the energy and the body dies where does the energy go?Quote.
=================================

Dan:
I do not have all the answers of course, but it would seem to me that the energy, not being limited by time/space as we perceive it, could virtually go anywhere it desired. Then again, it may not "go" anywhere. It also may have the option of joining another fertilized egg and begin anew. It may then, one day, seek out others that it was comfortable with in the previous existance that have joined new bodys.


Is there another unseen host or does it just go everywhere? (Quote.)
=======================================
Dan:
I do not believe it necessary for it to need another host. It would be quite self-sufficient. These energy fields are probably linked together, with each other, in some manner. This linking is what you have seen me mention before as the collective River-of-knowledge.
===================================

Can the energy after being a unit for so long learn how to stay together, becomming something like a ghost?(Quote.)
=====================================
Dan:
I would say to that, that it could accomplish this feat with but a mere desire.
Being energy- influencing other energy- it could manifest itself to a "remembered" form very easily for some purpose.
======================================

Most of us have good and bad energy{love hate} do you think this would seperate? If it did seperate then would we still be the individual?(Quote).
=======================================
Dan:
First, love/hate may be learned, emotional, chemical, responses of the human brain.

I once read where a doctor/scientist said that all memory could not possible be retained in the brain. That there has to be another location(somewhere) for the majority of memories that we recall.
It seems quite possible that energy particles could retain memory.

I have lived for 57 years, 57 years of gazillions of megabits of memory. Everything I have ever experienced is recorded. Every thing that I have heard, said, smelled, touched, and saw. I can instantly recall the smell of a rose, the touch of velvet, the sound of running water, the sight of a beautiful sunset. All recorded somewhere.

Who would have thought that one day there would be memory metals that could return to their original shape after damage. yet, today they exist and are being experimented with to build automobiles from.

It is an interesting thought that emotions may rule the energy force after seperation. Should this be the case I can see where "enlightened prophets" in the past have spoke so much on the developing of a love attitude toward yourself and others.
It could be that the ruling emotions of this life carry over to the "afterlife" of the energy form.
These attitudes may be a changing force on the energy force and cause a comfortable or uncomfortable existance afterwards. Hince the heaven/hell subject.

I do believe that after a life time of contact and interaction with the emotions of the human brain that certain tendacies and characteristics would carry over and be retained.

I know that my views of the things being discussed here go against the built-in, handed-down, assumptions of many people.
Yet, how many times have a generations assumptions been proven wrong by science? Many I would say.
Raising questions seem to make others investigate.

The generations that thought the earth flat, or earth the center of the universe, these are merely two examples that were later proven wrong.

What "we" are and what endless possibilities abound strikes at the very heart of scientific curiosity.
To stimulate the answers-questions must be asked. Theorys must be discussed.

Often, I think that the answers were here, only the questions were missing.

Man has evolved from the dark times of seeking to explain his potentials and beginnings thru gods in the sky, to realizing that he may be a god in his own right. In touch with unlimited possibilities.

Napsters mommy now takes him to his room, puts him over her knee and gives him a spanking for being disrespectfull.

I am working my way up to having the courage and the sensitivity to say these sorts of things even to my parents. I think the exercise of this kind of discussion only helps people. Discussing like this on a webforum is perfect training for me.

Already though, my mother has discovered many of the things that I have by herself. I am very proud of my mommy. Both of my dads though, could really use some loving disrespect.

Dan I agree with your experiments, and I wonder if the 1st "religions" were closer to reality? I used the word religions for lack of a better word{maybe spiritual forces would be better?}.

Look at the American indians{of yesteryear} and even some tribes today of how they felt that they are part of everything, an energey force. Did modern man invent modern religion not only for power but to just make a hard answer to understand, easier?

I was just picking, but I noticed something

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I am working my way up to having the courage and the sensitivity to say these sorts of things even to my parents.

Calling elders "old farts" has nothing to do with sensitivity ;). In order to receive respect a person needs to show respect. A knowitall in reality knows nothing, how can one learn if they never listen?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mad dog
[B]Dan I agree with your experiments, and I wonder if the 1st "religions" were closer to reality? I used the word religions for lack of a better word{maybe spiritual forces would be better?}. (Quote).
===========================================
Dan:
Possible, there have been sooo many beliefs. Isn't it interesting that so many beliefs instilled fear. A negative emotion.
=======================================

Look at the American indians{of yesteryear} and even some tribes today of how they felt that they are part of everything, an energey force. Did modern man invent modern religion not only for power but to just make a hard answer to understand, easier? (Quote).
==========================================
Dan:
Mad dog, I believe that original religions were often misinterpretations of impressions people received. By impressions I mean information miagrating from the energy force within us to the concious mind.

Look at the New Testament sometimes, when you have the opportunity. I believe that many changes were made in what was supposedly the words of Jesus, but look at some of the phrases in the context of the things that I have spoken of here. Sort of in a new way, not in the handed down way. Some of his words take on a new meaning. There are probably many such occurances of misinterpretation in many religions and beliefs.

If a person opens themselves and recognizes the "messages" from their inner self much can be learned. I do not mean "voices", I mean impressions and ideas that seem to come from what I call left field.

Remember the inventers like Edison that said solutions came to them during sleep.
I learned long ago that when I had a problem I could not work out I turned it over to my sub-concious and let it work it out while I went on about my business of life. Then, bam, the answer would suddenly pop into my head- while I maybe had my mind on something else entirely.

It is so interesting that we are truly in charge of our own fate, and that we DO NOT have a planned life with no chance of choosing possibilites.

It is especially comforting when one realizes that there is no penalty/reward system, after we die, for following a particular set of man-written rules while we live.

Perhaps man can, one day, learn that religion and science can walk hand and hand. That they are not enemies, but allies to be written in such a manner as to help man reach his full potential.

It gets back to recognized perception by the individual. It is available to everyone, not just a chosen few.

Originally posted by mad dog
I was just picking, but I noticed something



Calling elders "old farts" has nothing to do with sensitivity ;). In order to receive respect a person needs to show respect.
That goes both ways. I refuse to automatically show respect to someone who does not deserve it.

That goes both ways. I refuse to automatically show respect to someone who does not deserve it.

Precisely. But, I was referring to sensitivity in that I would be able to sense when and how to say the things I want to say to them, cultivating exactly the type of reaction I want. There is nothing wrong with calling an old fart an old fart, if it is said in the right tone with the right context.

Dan;

I don't know if personal beliefs instill fear or if the fear comes when the belief system goes public? Lets say a person is alone they feel at peace with themselfs. Then comes preacher billy bob and he tells the person they're going to hell if they don't follow and change their ways. Now we have 2 people then 3 and so on. All the folks were at peace with themselfs except one, the one who needed power, billy bob. I quess in short even a personal belief can be false?

I can see your point about Jesus giving a message and how it could have changed? I also have to wonder if Jesus ever walked the earth or if this was just a story made for the sake of gaining power?
It is interesting how you brought up the idea of problem solving, I do this all the time.



Originally posted by BorgHunter
That goes both ways. I refuse to automatically show respect to someone who does not deserve it.

I agree Borg, but what happens when you don't know the person? example; someone is walking into a building with their hands full, I would think that some folks would be willing to hold the door open for them???? I would rather be the better person and show some respect 1st then if the person turns out to be a jerk, screw them. If the person can see that I will respect their space {them} then hopefully they'll respect mine{me}.

Napster what happens if an older person does not like your "old fart" name? Wouldn't it be disrespectfull to call someone names without knowing how they may take them?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mad dog
[B]Dan;

I don't know if personal beliefs instill fear or if the fear comes when the belief system goes public? Lets say a person is alone they feel at peace with themselfs. Then comes preacher billy bob and he tells the person they're going to hell if they don't follow and change their ways. Now we have 2 people then 3 and so on. All the folks were at peace with themselfs except one, the one who needed power, billy bob. I quess in short even a personal belief can be false?(Quote).
============================================
Mad dog,

First, lets have a little background on the workings of the human brain.
The brain seems not to distinguish what is real and what is memory.
For example: Picture yourself biting into a lemon. The brain sees this action as real and starts the salavary glands in the mouth to secrete digestive juices, just if you were really biting into a lemon.

The same with sex. A guy alone can picture a naked woman and the brain sees it as "real" and the body actually responds with an erection.

In the above situation, that you mentioned, all that has to be installed is the scare tactic of "sinning" and its penalties. The brain begins to see the sin/penalty as reality. Therefore a fear reaction can occur due to the reality of previous memory that is accepted by the brain as fact.
Viewing situations in this manner, one can see how handed down realities occur.

It takes some effort to shake installed realities once they have been programed into the brain. The first step is to realize programed realities, the second step is the realization that alternative possibilities are available.

This is one reason the observer must be included into the equation of what is reality.

Dan;

I agree, I was raised in a strick Catholic home, I had to go to sunday school, the whole nine yards. I believed in what my family taught me, and also believed in what the elders{preachers etc...} had to say. As I became older and learned things I found out that this was just another man made group of ideas. I have also learned religion carrys power, the more followers the stronger the power. I have also learned man made religion is a big money maker, once again the more followers the more money. It took me awhile to seperate from that religion especially when my family believes in it so strongly. Now it is even hard for me to sit through a funeral and listen to the hocus pocus of a preacher. Even in death and a time of sour they still won't stop trying to get followers :(.

Originally posted by mad dog
Dan;

I agree, I was raised in a strick Catholic home, I had to go to sunday school, the whole nine yards. I believed in what my family taught me, and also believed in what the elders{preachers etc...} had to say. As I became older and learned things I found out that this was just another man made group of ideas. I have also learned religion carrys power, the more followers the stronger the power. I have also learned man made religion is a big money maker, once again the more followers the more money. It took me awhile to seperate from that religion especially when my family believes in it so strongly. Now it is even hard for me to sit through a funeral and listen to the hocus pocus of a preacher. Even in death and a time of sour they still won't stop trying to get followers :(.

Sorry you had a bad experience, Mad Dog! Having or believing in a specific religion doesn't save you from the second death. The word religion comes from a latin word 'regligae' (spelling?) which means 'bound together' and some are bound together with lies. Jesus said 'the truth will set you free', maybe you should look for it and not abandon the Lord.

The word religion comes from a latin word 'regligae' (spelling?) which means 'bound together' and some are bound together with lies.

It's always the other religions that are lies, isn't it?

Have to give you props, you came up with a new proof not in the official book (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm).

I shall add the "Argument from Latin Definition" post haste!

Originally posted by Napsterbater
It's always the other religions that are lies, isn't it?

Have to give you props, you came up with a new proof not in the official book (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm).

I shall add the "Argument from Latin Definition" post haste!

Lots of religions don't follow the Bible Nap - it's the Word that binds true Christians to Jesus.

I'm not talking about the Bible. Click the link.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I'm not talking about the Bible. Click the link.

I did click the link but the subject was not atheists.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Sorry you had a bad experience, Mad Dog! Having or believing in a specific religion doesn't save you from the second death. The word religion comes from a latin word 'regligae' (spelling?) which means 'bound together' and some are bound together with lies. Jesus said 'the truth will set you free', maybe you should look for it and not abandon the Lord.
==================================
Interesting, that you call Mad dog's experience bad.
I think he realized what was occuring.
You may be the one still having the bad experience and Mad dog may feel sorry for you.

Second death. If Jesus said the truth will set you free, maybe Mad dog is now free. Maybe he realized the truth.

I did click the link but the subject was not atheists.

What subject? The forum's? Mine? My link's? Your's?

The subject Mad Dog brought uo, Silly! QAre you trying to confuse me?:@@:

I think it is you confusing...

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I think it is you confusing...

I'm not confused I just forgot to edit my post.

I'm not confused I just forgot to edit my post.

Dude, reading comprehension. I shall say no more.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
==================================
Interesting, that you call Mad dog's experience bad.
I think he realized what was occuring.
You may be the one still having the bad experience and Mad dog may feel sorry for you.

Second death. If Jesus said the truth will set you free, maybe Mad dog is now free. Maybe he realized the truth.


Thank you. Maybe you're right. Do you read the Bible?

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Thank you. Maybe you're right. Do you read the Bible?
=============================
Not much now.
Did study it for several years.
When you read it open mindedly, without the pre-conceived opinions of others, parts of it can be quite interesting.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Sorry you had a bad experience, Mad Dog! Having or believing in a specific religion doesn't save you from the second death. The word religion comes from a latin word 'regligae' (spelling?) which means 'bound together' and some are bound together with lies. Jesus said 'the truth will set you free', maybe you should look for it and not abandon the Lord.

I don't want to say it was a bad experience, more like an untruthfull one. If we did want to call it bad I quess we could because of the made up lies??? I don't care for those that feel the need to tell me what or how God feels when they don't have a clue themselfs. As Dan said I am free and do have my own beliefs, whether they're right or wrong I don't care they are right for me. How do you Know that Jesus was even real? If you know he was/is real then prove it? I know this is a hard question, but in order to believe we need to start from the gate then go into what or what may not have happened. In order for me to believe in a guy wearing sandles and calling himself God{or son of} I want proof of his existence????????? So far there is none that I know except for a bunch of fairy tails. This is the 2000'nds we should be looking for truth not hocus pocus.

Mad dog, I think that one day we will see proof of man's potential.
I do not believe it will be found in the myths of the past, but in future exploration of fields like quantum physics.

It is interesting, to me, that the possibilities that I have spoken of for years are only now beginning to be realised by some branches of science, thru such research.

Originally posted by mad dog
I don't want to say it was a bad experience, more like an untruthfull one. If we did want to call it bad I quess we could because of the made up lies??? I don't care for those that feel the need to tell me what or how God feels when they don't have a clue themselfs. As Dan said I am free and do have my own beliefs, whether they're right or wrong I don't care they are right for me. How do you Know that Jesus was even real? If you know he was/is real then prove it? I know this is a hard question, but in order to believe we need to start from the gate then go into what or what may not have happened. In order for me to believe in a guy wearing sandles and calling himself God{or son of} I want proof of his existence????????? So far there is none that I know except for a bunch of fairy tails. This is the 2000'nds we should be looking for truth not hocus pocus.

Well M D, you'll just have to talk to him- he's not hocus pocus - and I can only tell you he's real and alive - you'll have to find out for yourself if that's the truth.

That is all you will ever be able to say, newds. Making such blind assertions only alienates you from people who really care about the truth.

Again, the arrogance of the unbeliever.

newsagent13 professes a belief in God so nappy seperates him from the company of those who care about the truth.

I believe in God and I care about the truth as much as any man or woman. The fact that my truth is not the same as nappy's does not in any way diminish that.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
[B]he's not hocus pocus - and I can only tell you he's real and alive - [B]
Frogger i do actually respect you alot more recently, but taking his comment above a few things come to mind.

He states as pure truth that God is man, and that he is "alive" now this is to say he walks amidst us as any other.

Do you believe this way?

The fact that my truth is not the same as nappy's does not in any way diminish that.

If there is more than one truth, is there truth at all?
If truth is subjective, it is not 'truth'.

If there is more than one truth, is there truth at all?
If truth is subjective, it is not 'truth'.

Exactly. Theists go on and on about how their point of view is absolute truth. Well, there is more than one truth, which makes theism wrong.

newsagent13 professes a belief in God so nappy seperates him from the company of those who care about the truth.

Not so. I am saying that those who claim that there is only one God, et al, et al; alienate those who search for their own truth. newds is claiming his God as the only one. That, my friends, is arrogance. It may be HIS truth, but it is not everybody's.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Mad dog, I think that one day we will see proof of man's potential.
I do not believe it will be found in the myths of the past, but in future exploration of fields like quantum physics.

I agree Dan, I also think the one thing that is holding us back is fear. It is easier and safer to believe in a God that is watching over his/hers/its creation then it is believing that we may hold our own fate. Most people want to know they have a babysitter instead of possibly finding out that there is an unknown. Keep life simple believe there are monsters in the ocean this way we never need to find out. Believe that the sun goes around the earth it makes us the center of everything. There are many ways to be blind without losing eyesight.

It is interesting, to me, that the possibilities that I have spoken of for years are only now beginning to be realised by some branches of science, thru such research.

Over the years science has had to walk on very thin ice. The power heads of the past would have rather had power then truth. I believe science and God are one in the same 2+2=4 not some guy turning water to wine. Could you imagine what would happen if you went back in time pulled out a GPS. You would be called a witch and burned at the stake.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Well M D, you'll just have to talk to him- he's not hocus pocus - and I can only tell you he's real and alive - you'll have to find out for yourself if that's the truth.

Well we went through this once before and I explained how I didn't want to be selfish. So I'll ask again, "JESUS please show proof of yourself to the world/every living thing and stop playing cat and mouse with those that you claim to love. Prove to us that there is only 1, ONE true religion!!!!" PS could you do this true miracle sometime over the weekend?

Nothing happened last time, but hey maybe this time something will? I know it sounds like I'm being sarcastic but if this man of miracles is real then maybe he could perform one miracle? I'm am not asking this to be an arse I am asking for the truth nothing more nothing less.

Originally posted by Frogger
Again, the arrogance of the unbeliever.

newsagent13 professes a belief in God so nappy seperates him from the company of those who care about the truth.

I believe in God and I care about the truth as much as any man or woman. The fact that my truth is not the same as nappy's does not in any way diminish that.

So what is the truth, is there a Jesus or not. example I believe the color red on a car is horrible you believe it is beautifull. So we have a difference of opinion but the truth is that there is still the color red. A belief in something is not truth, if there was/is a Jesus guy then he needs to give solid proof. Not for believers but for all of his creation, infact if he were so loving I'ld think he'ld try to prove himself that much more to the non-believers, instead of sending them to a place called hell???

Originally posted by mad dog
So what is the truth, is there a Jesus or not. example I believe the color red on a car is horrible you believe it is beautifull. So we have a difference of opinion but the truth is that there is still the color red. A belief in something is not truth, if there was/is a Jesus guy then he needs to give solid proof. Not for believers but for all of his creation, infact if he were so loving I'ld think he'ld try to prove himself that much more to the non-believers, instead of sending them to a place called hell???

I believe this to be so, mad dog. Don't ask me why!
I have no "proof."

It's something I believe in my heart, and I do think that there was such an entity as Jesus, not because I am told to, but because it just seems right.

I can't help but think that even if He were to be among us today, there would still be those who did not accept what he stood for, even after witnessing miracles and such with their own eyes. Just like there were many 2000 years ago who did not accept.
This is their right--to think or believe, or not...

I cannot recall, it's been so many years since I've been to church, but did Jesus ever say that a person was damned if they did not accept Him?
I do not recall Him saying this but could be because I don't have much of a formal religious background or education.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rendova

I cannot recall, it's been so many years since I've been to church, but did Jesus ever say that a person was damned if they did not accept Him?
I do not recall Him saying this but could be because I don't have much of a formal religious background or education. Quote.
==========================================
Yes,

John:14-6
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Thanks Dan~~
But does this mean that they are DAMNED if they do not believe?Or just that they won't get to be with the Father?
(I know this belongs on the religion forum, sorry)

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rendova

I cannot recall, it's been so many years since I've been to church, but did Jesus ever say that a person was damned if they did not accept Him?
I do not recall Him saying this but could be because I don't have much of a formal religious background or education. Quote.
==========================================
Yes,

John:14-6
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yes, Rendova, in John 3 about verse 17, He said, "he who believes shall be saved, he who doesn't shall be damned."

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Yes, Rendova, in John 3 about verse 17, He said, "he who believes shall be saved, he who doesn't shall be damned."
Isn't that kind of...well, capricious? And doesn't it sicken you a bit that a so-called "just" god would draw such an arbitrary line and toss those on the wrong side of it into eternal pain?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Isn't that kind of...well, capricious? And doesn't it sicken you a bit that a so-called "just" god would draw such an arbitrary line and toss those on the wrong side of it into eternal pain?

Well Borg, humans kill their enemies don't they? God, Jesus has given us a chance to change, turn the other cheek, so to speak but most are stiff necked and don't believe (kinda like the Hebrews, wandering in the desert for 40 years). If we don't we will reap what we sow - unbelief.

Originally posted by rendova
I believe this to be so, mad dog. Don't ask me why!
I have no "proof."

this is my point a belief does not prove anything, proof is what is needed???

It's something I believe in my heart, and I do think that there was such an entity as Jesus, not because I am told to, but because it just seems right.

If you lived in some far of jungle you may believe that the elephant is a god. Maybe society has taught you to want to believe?

I can't help but think that even if He were to be among us today, there would still be those who did not accept what he stood for, even after witnessing miracles and such with their own eyes. Just like there were many 2000 years ago who did not accept.

I think most everyone would except what he was suppose to stand for love peace etc...BUT does/did he ever exist?

witnessing miracles, what miracles he never cured hunger never stopped a disease, and turning water to wine is worse then having freash water to drink.


I cannot recall, it's been so many years since I've been to church, but did Jesus ever say that a person was damned if they did not accept Him?
I do not recall Him saying this but could be because I don't have much of a formal religious background or education.

Dan answered this. This question also brings up many questions, if he is a loving God then why be so darned mean? If he is the only God then why be so jealous? Instaed of scaring folks into following him why not teach?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Isn't that kind of...well, capricious? And doesn't it sicken you a bit that a so-called "just" god would draw such an arbitrary line and toss those on the wrong side of it into eternal pain?
==================================

Kind of reminds me of the parent that says, "cause I said so, or I will beat your ass!"

Borg, I see a paradox here. Jesus teaches love and compassion.
God, according to the bible, is pretty hung up on the revenge/ punishment thingy.

In many ways the two are quite different.
Jesus supposedly spent time healing and helping man, showing that god could do these things for man on a larger scale. Yet, he sits up in his golden throne, at his home on a golden street, letting man suffer countless attrocities, with one thought in mind.
Punish those bastards that do not blindly follow the christian teaching, on faith alone-from a few scribblings in a book.

Originally posted by mad dog
this is my point a belief dohaving freash water to drink.




Dan answered this. This question also brings up many questions, if he is a loving God then why be so darned mean? If he is the only God then why be so jealous? Instaed of scaring folks into following him why not teach?

I don't know.
What's that old quote?
"If God is benevolent , he's not all-powerful.....
If God is all-powerful, he's not benevolent."

Originally posted by rendova
I don't know.
What's that old quote?
"If God is benevolent , he's not all-powerful.....
If God is all-powerful, he's not benevolent."

Who said that?? It doesn't equate.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
==================================

Kind of reminds me of the parent that says, "cause I said so, or I will beat your ass!"

Borg, I see a paradox here. Jesus teaches love and compassion.
God, according to the bible, is pretty hung up on the revenge/ punishment thingy.

In many ways the two are quite different.
Jesus supposedly spent time healing and helping man, showing that god could do these things for man on a larger scale. Yet, he sits up in his golden throne, at his home on a golden street, letting man suffer countless attrocities, with one thought in mind.
Punish those bastards that do not blindly follow the christian teaching, on faith alone-from a few scribblings in a book.

I don't think you've read the verse in Genesis where the Lord repented to Noah after the flood and I don't think you've read the verse in John that says He wept when he turned his eyes to Jerusalem. AND it's for sure you haven't
read and understood Isaiah or Joel.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
Who said that?? It doesn't equate.

It was Saint Augustine, writing in the fifth century. Like many before and since, he struggled with the concept of what God truly is, the forces of good and evil, morality, redemption, forgiveness.
Here's more:

http://dialogos3.tripod.com/dial4.htm

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE]Originally posted by newdsagent3
[B]I don't think you've read the verse in Genesis where the Lord repented to Noah after the flood and I don't think you've read the verse in John that says He wept when he turned his eyes to Jerusalem. AND it's for sure you haven't
read and understood Isaiah or Joel. (Quote).
================================

Sure, I have read these words. Where do you think I got the information for the above statement?

And if by "Joel", you mean Job, this is one of the sickest games that could have been represented.
Two creatures of power in a chess game with poor Job as the pawn. If most people saw a lab rat being tortured in such a manner they would protest most aloud.

Also, if you mean by "understood", agreeing. You are most correct.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell


No I didn't mean Job I meant the minor prophet Joel. And you're changing the subject - God is an awesome God - who do you think Jesus is?

who do you think Jesus is?

The ultimate hippie!

And you are free to believe he is the ultimate hippy, or a non-existent construct of wishful minds. I am perfectly okay with that. Not everyone is a believer.

My question to you and the other non-believers is; why do so many of you feel you have to not only not believe in God but insult those who do?

My believing in God does not affect you one way or the other. I am not forcing you to believe. I am not insulting or ridiculing you for not believing, I am doing and saying nothing negative directed toward your non-belief. I am respectful of your individual belief system.
Why are there so many atheists who can't give the same respect to those of us who believe?

My question to you and the other non-believers is; why do so many of you feel you have to not only not believe in God but insult those who do?

It is human nature to dislike those not alike to you, but they may do it as a result of their own ego, their facing opposition from those of a faith, being tired of living in a society where they are bombarded with it, or are just very rude, apathetic simpletons.

Jesus taught tolerance and love, and so i would prefer the christian community to take it to heart more and do so. There definitely is much anti-atheist sentiment among them...and that causes agnostics and atheists to fight back, perhaps in even more crude ways. The question of what Jesus should come to their minds, so be careful about being confrontational with those who oppose you.

Why are there so many atheists who can't give the same respect to those of us who believe?

I'll mention once again of the social pressures and frustrations they may gain from it, as certain values are not as strong in their minds...but it all may just boil down to that they hate you. If one christian makes you upset you thrash out at any other who is also one? Terrible frame of mind.

Walk up to them while they are at dinner with their significant other, begin insulting said other in crude ways...see how they react. My guess is it won't be pretty and they will stand up to defend that person...but their respect and caring for others stops at their personal lives. Jesus may be love, but is not worthy of even their slightest respect.

Originally posted by newdsagent3
No I didn't mean Job I meant the minor prophet Joel. And you're changing the subject - God is an awesome God - who do you think Jesus is?
====================================

Do you mean that the Christian god is an awesome god?
What about the hundreds of other religions, is their god any less?
Do the millions of other people with different beliefs deserve less respect for their beliefs.

A strange thing seems to occur when a person chooses one of the hundreds of religions as their own belief, they begin to operate under the assumption that theirs is the only true religion.

I have no way of knowing who Jesus was, or if he even existed.
Many fine examples of how to live were attributed to him regardless of who or if.

When Constantine had a group of men sit down and compile various writings into the Christian bible a great amount of wisdom was included. As I would have to assume a great amount was excluded. Depending on what direction they wanted the reader to travel in.

Remember that during the time of Jesus practically no one in the area could read. Local people relied on different writings that were read to them during religious meetings. Writings that were kept in temples because they were so expensive-each having to be prepared by scribes over a long period of time.
People did not have written material at home usually.

When a particular new writing occurs some of the beliefs of the writer is, by human nature, included.

To pick a particular religion is to become somewhat close-minded to new ideas and thoughts. This is the reason that I have chosen none of mans religions as a complete belief system. I tend to be open minded and most responsive to proof. Blind faith of words written thousands of years ago in the middle east do not fit into my perspective. Some people seem to have a problem with my lack of belief of all handed-down information.

I live according to common sence methods that have been proven to enable one to function in todays society.

I do not expect common laws to be enacted to force others to live to my particular beliefs. Yet, many religious orders do expect this, as if they and they alone possess some insightful knowledge as to how life was intended to be lived.

I believe in the right to privacy and being responsible for one's own actions. I treat others with respect as long as they allow me to and help others when I can.

It has been said here that some people disrespect others because of their faith. I have been disrespected, at times, because of my lack of such.

I have, as example, said that I may not believe Jesus lived and have been told immediately that I was going to hell in a hand cart. I, on the other hand, have never told anyone they were going anywhere for believing Jesus lived.

I could really care less what others believe, as long as they do not expect laws to be passed to make me live according to their beliefs. For in the long run a belief does not make a thing so. The number of believers have no bearing on the correctness of a situation or belief. The proof is in the pudding and I, so far, have not seen the pudding.

why do so many of you feel you have to not only not believe in God but insult those who do?

I don't believe in God. I don't not believe in God. I don't have an answer one way or another on the subject. I am not looking for an answer. I will never need that answer. It is an insult to me when others think I need their answer. So I insult them back. Theists and atheists are fundamentally opposed to one another, so they will forever be trading insults. They will forever be saying the other is insulting them, at the same time being insulting themselves. That is the way of the world. Nobody is innocent.

To both Dan & Napster,

It's your choice and you have that freedom.

Why do you say that "it's my choice," and "I have that freedom," like you gave me that freedom? It isn't something you, or anyone, even your God, can give or take away, freedom.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Why do you say that "it's my choice," and "I have that freedom," like you gave me that freedom? It isn't something you, or anyone, even your God, can give or take away, freedom.

Right!:woohoo:

Originally posted by Frogger
My question to you and the other non-believers is; why do so many of you feel you have to not only not believe in God but insult those who do?

I try not to insult, but sometimes questions seem insulting. Maybe some Chrisians see questions as insults because they don't understand their own answers? When I ask for proof of existence or ask to see 1 miracle it causes a Christian to truly think, sometimes they get upset at what they can't prove. When we are trained to believe in something for years and years it is upsetting when we question those beliefs. Then it is even more upsetting when the belief may be false.


My believing in God does not affect you one way or the other. I am not forcing you to believe. I am not insulting or ridiculing you for not believing, I am doing and saying nothing negative directed toward your non-belief. I am respectful of your individual belief system.
Why are there so many atheists who can't give the same respect to those of us who believe?

You are repectfull, but there are those that tell non-Christians they're going to hell. What does this prove, nothing, it is probably one of the biggest insults there are.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[B]====================================

When Constantine had a group of men sit down and compile various writings into the Christian bible a great amount of wisdom was included. As I would have to assume a great amount was excluded. Depending on what direction they wanted the reader to travel in.


Dan we also have to remember Constantine needed power and back then to get power you needed followers. So Conatantine being a smart man brought Jesus back 300+ years after his???death. The power of fairy tails back then was a very good tool. The gift of gab could make or break a society.

Originally posted by mad dog
Dan we also have to remember Constantine needed power and back then to get power you needed followers. So Conatantine being a smart man brought Jesus back 300+ years after his???death. The power of fairy tails back then was a very good tool. The gift of gab could make or break a society.

Since Paganism in its various garbs was the prevailing religion of the Roman Empire at the time of Constantine his declaring Christianity the State Religion probably cost him more than it gained him.


Fairies don't have tails. Dogs, mad or sane have tails.

Originally posted by Frogger
[B]Since Paganism in its various garbs was the prevailing religion of the Roman Empire at the time of Constantine his declaring Christianity the State Religion probably cost him more than it gained him.
==========================================
From what I have read in the past,
many of the pagans were picked up when the Christian worship day became Sunday.
Sun-day, was the day the pagans worshiped. First day of the calendar week.

Originally posted by Frogger
Since Paganism in its various garbs was the prevailing religion of the Roman Empire at the time of Constantine his declaring Christianity the State Religion probably cost him more than it gained him.

In is a known fact Constantine gained his power through the Christian religion. So you are way off if you believe it hurt him


Fairies don't have tails. Dogs, mad or sane have tails.

:) do you know why dogs have tails? they are used for steering it helps there balance which keeps them from falling over. ;)

Also are you saying you have seen a fairy?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
From what I have read in the past,
many of the pagans were picked up when the Christian worship day became Sunday.
Sun-day, was the day the pagans worshiped. First day of the calendar week.

The Christmas holiday was also pagan, it was easier to slowly convert the pagans and use days they allready had instead of fighting them. Those Christians sure were a crafty bunch :cool:

I think that on a day to day basis when I'm just walking down the street or bantering with friends I,me--am located behind my eyes as well--- but when I'm trying to be creative I think that I move somewhere toward the middle of my brain--somewhere in the center and that is where I try to pull every brain wave I have into what it is I'm doing.

Funn-I never feel like I'm in the back of my brain though, hmmm

Originally posted by DebbieSnacks
I think that on a day to day basis when I'm just walking down the street or bantering with friends I,me--am located behind my eyes as well--- but when I'm trying to be creative I think that I move somewhere toward the middle of my brain--somewhere in the center and that is where I try to pull every brain wave I have into what it is I'm doing.

Funn-I never feel like I'm in the back of my brain though, hmmm
===================================

Thanks for the input.
To me, it is interesting that few people actually ever think about where the observer is located.
It may not be important, then again, this awareness may actually help in accomplishments.