I just saw an info commercial on t.v. on natural products.

A guy named Kevin Trudeau says Americans are overweight because food processing companies purposely add chemicals to make the products addictive.

I thought we were overweight (other than health problems)
because we were lazy, inactive, and spoiled.

Comments?

I thought we were overweight (other than health problems) because we were lazy, inactive, and spoiled.

Chemicals or not, food can become a very addictive substance for many. The additives in our food for preservation, color, texture, and other properties are definitely not the best for us in the long run.

The documentary film Super Size Me is actually quite interesting although the research could have been more thorough and scientific. It follows the filmmaker, Morgan Spurlock, around for 30 days where he eats nothing but food from McDonalds. He tries everything on the menu, and eats three meals a day.
After several days, he was gaining weight, his blood pressure shot up, he was getting as greasy faced as a 14 year old, vomiting, tired, and prone to mood swings among other things. The doctors decided that he had become addicted to the food, mostly on account of the things inside the products, not the pure food themselves.

Americans are generally lazy, we have a drive everywhere mentality, and with the advent of computers and other technologies, life is getting easier and easier. Americans generally eat a lot also, the fast food era is taking a toll on people's health. Having 3 large meals a day, grease filled, sugary, and full of unneeded extra nutrients (such as too many carbohydrates that won't be used).
I am glad to see diets and exercise gyms getting a lot of attention, even the advertising for the youngsters has appeared on cereal and morning television. The Atkins and South Beach low carb based diets are the most popular, but in the long run it has been decided Weight Watchers is overall the best, mainly on account of you being able to eat anything you want while the portions are limited and exercise is encouraged.
As for the "spoiled" comment, we may be rich, have great infrastructure, technology, and many other advantages, but that is like saying Bill works at his job and the mere fact he gets a bigger paycheck then Bob next door is because he is spoiled.

Is America overweight because of food additives? No, but they help initiate addictions to food that is generally very dangerous to your health.
Maintaining a more active lifestyle with more physical effort is the biggest step away from that, and eating less, and even more natural foods would also be a major catalyst.
Also take the time to watch what you eat, take a few minutes to plan out the week or day by reading food labels and tracking your caloric intake and amount of labor, as well as the vitamins and minerals you are getting.

All in all, stay fit, and shy away from fast food America. ;)

A very confounding thing I notice about Americans is thata lot of people think Americans are lazy, but actually Americans are not laid-back. Americans have very stressed life, and spend a lot of time and energy on work and making money. Globally speaking I think only the Japanese corporate types are comparable in turns of hard work and stress level. It's interesting that despite that Americans still somehow (how?) give off a lazy image.

Chemicals or not, food can become a very addictive substance for many. The additives in our food for preservation, color, texture, and other properties are definitely not the best for us in the long run.

And yet, food today is so much healthier than food of years past.

People no longer get botulism from spoiled canned goods, milk no longer carries Mycobacterium tuberculosis, there is no ergot in bread products, foods have a longer shelf life before spoiling. Despite the fact that there are additives in our food people are living longer than ever.

Despite the fact that there are additives in our food people are living longer than ever.

Different types of foods becoming available in greater quantities from all across the globe, new medicines and innoculations, and all other sort of medical breakthrough are helping lengthen life and hinder disease growth.

Food may have much less chances for diseases coming upon you, they may last longer or have taste enhancement, and that is all well and good, but in the end, putting chemicals like that in your body (especially in the portions americans do) are most likely going to harm you, maybe not as much as mentioned problems from long past, but nonetheless still a danger.

We may be living longer and longer, but stick to a diet of fresh, organic meats, fruits, grains, and vegetables and you'll live even longer and your body will be in better shape along the way. :)

And on another note, interesting statement Dio, although the answer probably lies in how rich we are and how that correlates to how fat we are and how our lifestyle has many perks that we take for granted. But i think it is marvelous that you bring up how stressful an american's life can be, our lives are fast paced and stress filled, not to mention the ever growing complexity of all the needs and desires of the culture. I think this lifestyle wears out a good many people, and many of our social problems are arising from it.

I find food very addictive. When i go without it for a while, i start to feel dizzy, get headaches, and oh the cravings! I cant get that hamburger out of my head! I just have to eat. God knows how much money I've blown on my addiction. Is there any way to cure this problem?

I just watched a show about a guy that weighed in at 1076lbs. He said he never ate more then the normal meals{bwahhahahahaha}. Well this would have been true if the normal meal was 2 pizza's in the morning followed by bags of chips and deep fried food. His doctor said that food can be addictive for some folks. So yes food can be addictive but staying healthy can also be addicitve. If a person chooses to eat 40lbs of food a day and lay on their fat butt then live with it. I wonder when they realize their overweight, maybe the fact of not being able to wipe ones butt would be a good time to think twice before having that 15th burger. This guy had the stomach surgery but did not change his diet. Of course he had to eat smaller meals but he still was eating chips and laying in bed. He is blaming everyone and everyhthing possible for his problem but he still won't eat healthy and exercise.

Mad dog, thinking about your post makes me think that sometimes depression or self-abuse comes into play in some of these cases.

Kind of the opposite of the anorexia nervosa.

Originally posted by mad dog
I just watched a show about a guy that weighed in at 1076lbs. He said he never ate more then the normal meals{bwahhahahahaha}. Well this would have been true if the normal meal was 2 pizza's in the morning followed by bags of chips and deep fried food. His doctor said that food can be addictive for some folks. So yes food can be addictive but staying healthy can also be addicitve. If a person chooses to eat 40lbs of food a day and lay on their fat butt then live with it. I wonder when they realize their overweight, maybe the fact of not being able to wipe ones butt would be a good time to think twice before having that 15th burger. This guy had the stomach surgery but did not change his diet. Of course he had to eat smaller meals but he still was eating chips and laying in bed. He is blaming everyone and everyhthing possible for his problem but he still won't eat healthy and exercise.
Eating a lot and being lazy can't account for someone weighing half a ton. There has to be something glandular wrong with him. Though I don't doubt that being a lazy, gluttonous couch potato contributed to the problem.

I find food very addictive. When i go without it for a while, i start to feel dizzy, get headaches, and oh the cravings! I cant get that hamburger out of my head! I just have to eat. God knows how much money I've blown on my addiction. Is there any way to cure this problem?

If you go without food and drink for too long, headaches, dizziness, and hunger often come from it. :D
Unless you are a John Goodman type, you've no problem. ;)

Mad dog, thinking about your post makes me think that sometimes depression or self-abuse comes into play in some of these cases.

Overeating and not eating anything are often caused by or cause depression in some cases.
And the availability of mass amounts of unhealthy food products does not bode well for our society.

Eating a lot and being lazy can't account for someone weighing half a ton. There has to be something glandular wrong with him.

Agreed, there definitely was something faulty with this man, but that fat does not appear out of nowhere...glandular problem or not, his overindulgence in food is the cause. Would he had eaten healthier and less, maintained a moderate amount of physical activity, and consulted doctors about such issues, he would be able to move around freely today and not be confined to his bed.

Once he's confined to bed, I'd have to think you'd be able to force him to go on a diet. That someone kept on shoveling in the food shows a lack of caring.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Mad dog, thinking about your post makes me think that sometimes depression or self-abuse comes into play in some of these cases.

Kind of the opposite of the anorexia nervosa.

Agreed and the circle can't stop until the person takes a stand. They start out eating because of boredom depresion etc... they start getting fat which in turn makes them more depressed which causes them to eat more. Sooner or later they have to stop blaming everything else though and take a look at the real problem.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Eating a lot and being lazy can't account for someone weighing half a ton.

Sometimes I just want to hang out with you and smoke the same stuff your somking :D If I fed you nothing but junk food all day and made it so you didn't need to get up or get up very little you would get very obese. Once you are obese then you even do less then before, sooner or later you are stuck on the bed weighing half a ton. Sorry for not being charming but I found that comment very funny :)


There has to be something glandular wrong with him. Though I don't doubt that being a lazy, gluttonous couch potato contributed to the problem.

I understand why you might think this because in a few{very few} people it is true. Now with this mans story it was not the case he just didn't know when to quit, and his wife just kept on feeding him. At the end of the show the doc said he will not change because he will not change his ways. I personally know a couple of people that have had the stomach surgery. Before they started a proper diet they had all kinds of medical problems including thyroid, diabetes, etc... They are no longer obese and have completely lost alot of medical problems. The weight and diet caused the problems the lose of weight and eating healthy cured the problems including depression. We are all different, I may be able to eat a lb of beef while you may only be able to eat a half lb. This still does not change the fact we need to use our heads when it comes to food.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Once he's confined to bed, I'd have to think you'd be able to force him to go on a diet. That someone kept on shoveling in the food shows a lack of caring.

This is the sad part his ever so loving wife just kept on buying and bringing him food in bed. The other nasty part of this is that when they came to take him to the hospital he was dirty, he had feces under his fingernails etc...

There was another story awhile back about a lady that had become part of the couch. She had sat on her fata** so long that the couch and her had grown together.

Maybe I'm wrong but I do not feel sorry for these people they are causing their own problem and abusing the system to live it out. I do not think the government should give a disabilty paycheck for being obese.

She had sat on her fata** so long that the couch and her had grown together.

She had gotten sick, and when the medics came to her house, they had to smash in the windows and doors and let the air filter through...her smell was so pungent they couldn't go in.
Then after they managed to get her to the hospital, they removed the couch and her skin and she was prounounced dead....

Most bizarre story.

Maybe I'm wrong but I do not feel sorry for these people they are causing their own problem and abusing the system to live it out. I do not think the government should give a disabilty paycheck for being obese.

It is ridiculous, their caretakers also need to be brought up on some sort of charge, such as the man who was half a ton early mentioned. The last thing we need is obesity to be considered a disability on par with true handicaps so they can get special parking tags to haul their huge mass of a body an even shorter distance. ;)

The bottom line is that the food we eat is transformed into energy that we burn off or into fat as a means of storing that energy.

One does not get OBESE from having "glandular problems" or any of the other excuses that obese people use to explain away their bulk. Physical illness and medication can effect weight, but not to the point of making one more than 20 or so lbs overweight. It is physically imposible to gain weight if you don't consume.

SImply put......weight gained = food consumed - energy burned.

Put down the cheeseburger and step away from the desert table. Pick up some weights and walk around the block.

it also has something to do with the lack of physical activity. most work now only involve a computer for the entire day and we have neglected the importance of walking as a form of exercise because of the use of vehicles.

Originally posted by Evakian
It is ridiculous, their caretakers also need to be brought up on some sort of charge, such as the man who was half a ton early mentioned. The last thing we need is obesity to be considered a disability on par with true handicaps so they can get special parking tags to haul their huge mass of a body an even shorter distance. ;)

It does make a person wonder why a "loving" caretaker would keep adding to the problem??? maybe insurance???I hate to sound cruel but I will not feel sorry for the obese that won't help themselfs. I get PO'ed when I see someone that is obese parked in the HC parking space and then they get onto one of the scooters in the store. Then I trun around and see an old lady with a walker parking way away from the store and doing the best she can to push a cart. I realize some folks have problems but to add being obese is just plain stupid!!!

My wholly unscientific and arrogant opinion is that a lot more than calorie intake vs. calories burned goes into whether one is obese or not. In fact, I think these things lave very little to do with it, scientific evidence be damned. I think that a person's mental image of themselves has, perhaps eighty percent to do with it, and that caloric intake and exercise are but peripheral to that base reason.

A person can eat less and exercise more, but he/she may never lose weight. Inside, these people must be torturing themselves, powerless to stop it. Americans hate fat people. I think it is that very hate that is perpetuating the problem and producing people that tip the scales at over a thousand pounds.

I think the mental torture must stop first, otherwise a person will never get there. I have suspicions that if a person's image changes, then the body will change as well, without the need for all that work. I think the very idea that the work is needed is what keeps people's body images in such an abysmal state.

It seems so dreadfully new-age, this idea that the mind can alter the body, against science, but I have this sneaking suspicion that it just might be true. I think all the science in the world might not be able to solve this problem. Call me whatever you want, but I think an unscientific solution is the only effective way to solve this and many problems of the human condition.

One thing is a fact.
In all the old news reels I have seen of nazi concentration camps, no one came out fat because of "gland problems."

This guy on t.v., which was pushing the holistic thingy, also says that the drug manufacturs do not want you well because they are in the drug business. He says they do not intend to cure you.
Says side-effects just creat more problem and hinted that this is a purposely intended effect.

I know that I personally dropped some of my heart meds because of side effects, and seem to be doing just fine. I also lowered the dosage on some of them.
My doctor did not particulary like this, but hey, the side effects cleared up and my blood pressure is down.

Dan we seem to be a drug happy society, drugs will fix anything. depressed take a pill, over wieght take a pill, Got a sore arm take a pill, Food didn't taste right take a pill. I wonder what happened to proper diet exercise taking charge of our personal lifes? There are times when pills may help, but I would bet alot of America's "problems" could be taken care of by proper diet and a walk.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
One thing is a fact.
In all the old news reels I have seen of nazi concentration camps, no one came out fat because of "gland problems." [/B]

:D, You don't even have to look at concentration camps, just look back in time in our own country when we had to do labor farming etc... The problem today is life is just to easy/lazy

scientific evidence be damned.

Mental imagery of yourself, attitudes, and so on do not trump the fact that if you do not eat you do not gain weight, and vice versa.
Just because of the body is viewing itself as fat or thin does not give it the ammunition to take on the laws of our biology, if you do not exercise and eat to excess or have an unhealthy diet...you will gain weight.

You've a good point with the mindset aspect, your thought processes will definitely influence how you gain or lose weight in many circumstances, but the standard fact is that we eat food for energy, and if it is not eaten, that energy is stored in the body---and so we have plump people parading about.

Yes..I'm addicted to chocolate. I have certain times of the month I NEED chocolate and I'll do whatever it takes to get it. Even other times..I just crave chocolate...chocolate bars, chocolate cakes, chocolate milk, hot chocolate, I jus LOVE chocolate.

Mental imagery of yourself, attitudes, and so on do not trump the fact that if you do not eat you do not gain weight, and vice versa.
Just because of the body is viewing itself as fat or thin does not give it the ammunition to take on the laws of our biology, if you do not exercise and eat to excess or have an unhealthy diet...you will gain weight.

I do not believe it. I do not believe biology has anything to do with it. I think the biology is actually keeping people from a healthy lifestyle. I think the biology keeps one focused on the wrong things, on caloric intakes and fat grams and all of that nonsense. It makes people think they can take drugs to get better. I don't think science is helping at all.

I don't think food per se is addictive, but for some, in the case of the huge guy MD mentioned, i think the process of eating, and feeling full is addictive. I think there is some research being done that some people do not have an internal meter telling them enough. They keep filling and filling.

I also saw the fella mad dog mentioned. When the interviewer asked his wife if he was eating more than the normal person, before she could even answer, he piped up from the other room "the way you are asking her that is like you expect her to say "yah he empties the fridge every day" and wouldn't even let her answer, but her eyes told the truth. Their house looked like a dump, pop cans everywhere, pizza boxes etc. Yes after a point it was entirely her fault. She kept loving him with food, yet they were unable to consummate the marriage due to his condition.

Originally posted by creetwins
She kept loving him with food, yet they were unable to consummate the marriage due to his condition.

Of course that begs the question whether she actually wanted to consummate the marriage and whether she'd be able to survive the consummation.

Of course that begs the question whether she actually wanted to consummate the marriage and whether she'd be able to survive the consummation.

Classic, hilarious, and insightful ;)

I do not believe biology has anything to do with it.

Biology has the most to do with it, not all, but definitely the biggest factor in making big kahunas like we've been talking about here.

Biology has the most to do with it, not all, but definitely the biggest factor in making big kahunas like we've been talking about here.

I don't believe it.

Creetwins, wasn't that guy nasty and he seemed to have quite an ego. Did you see him tell how he would kick someones arse if they got him mad. I started laughing, how the heck is he going to kick butt if he can't even get out of bed :D The house was real nasty, most people would atleast try to clean up alittle if they new a TV show was comming.

I don't believe it

Well you should because it's the truth.

Well you should because it's the truth.

Is that all you got? "Believe it cause it's the TRUTH!!!1" You sound like a creationist.

Science can be a faith like any other. It is useful for some things and worthless for others. If science created this problem, then science should be able to fix it. And it can't. The list of things science cannot fix is a hell of a lot longer than the things it can. And guess which list all the really important problems are?

Many athiests start having faith in science, perhaps to replace their disabused notions of god. They think that just because science can explain something, that that is the best and only explanation for it.

I don't think calories and nutrition and fat and exercise and that whole slew of terms cuts the mustard when it comes to explaining why people get incredibly fat or for anything at all. The vast majority of people get by just fine without regular exercise, watching what they eat, or anything to do with nutrition science. I don't think that paying attention to these things all of a sudden will make fat people skinny.

Maybe science will come to embrace all those things that makes it totally incapable of dealing with overweight people. I don't think it ever will. Science has far too narrow a focus. It might be able to say, "People who cultivate a healthy self-image have a 20% better chance of keeping the weight off." That's about it. It cannot tell you how to keep that self-image. It is far too concerned with little things the mind and eye cannot see. The subconscious mind couldn't give a shit about things like fat cells. Forcing the conscious mind to keep track of them is only working against yourself.

As long as obesity is treated like a disease, we will never be able to get rid of it.

Or are you going to sit there like Evakian, and say "Well, biology has everything to do with it, you are wrong!!!1"

I just don't believe it.

Or are you going to sit there like Evakian, and say "Well, biology has everything to do with it, you are wrong!!!1"

I neither said that nor did i dismiss your viewpoint on this issue...

I just don't believe it.

So you are going to dismiss the facts of the case in favor of your own idea? The simple truth is that if you eat food in excess and do not use the energy, you will gain weight. In opposition, if you eat food properly and in moderation, and use that energy up, you will be able to maintain (or perhaps even lose for some people) your weight.

Is that all you got?

What more do we need? Go out and eat 50 twinkies 3 times a day for a month, do not exercise, or do so as little as possible, and if you dismiss the biological and natural factors that play (by far) the biggest role in people gaining or losing weight, we will have a problem.
You saying that "I do not believe biology has anything to do with it" is throwing fact aside in order for you to believe your theories. You are starting to sound like a creationist ;)

It might be able to say, "People who cultivate a healthy self-image have a 20% better chance of keeping the weight off."

So i can eat whatever i want, as much as i want, whenever i choose, and just because i think of myself as a fit and thin individual i will be? That does not add up.

As long as obesity is treated like a disease, we will never be able to get rid of it.

If there is fear of the condition, people will shy away from it.

So you are going to dismiss the facts of the case in favor of your own idea?

Yep. Because the 'facts' aren't all that they seem to be.

Go out and eat 50 twinkies 3 times a day for a month, do not exercise, or do so as little as possible, and if you dismiss the biological and natural factors that play (by far) the biggest role in people gaining or losing weight, we will have a problem.

You might think they play the biggest role, but I believe that you would be wrong.

You saying that "I do not believe biology has anything to do with it" is throwing fact aside in order for you to believe your theories.

Of course I am. I can't back it up. That is why I say, "I believe."


So i can eat whatever i want, as much as i want, whenever i choose, and just because i think of myself as a fit and thin individual i will be? That does not add up.

I think it does. I can't stand to eat too much sweets or junk. The food I like is good healthy food. I think that if you do some searching to find the food you really like, as opposed to the food you crave, you will eat a lot healthier. The body has its own natural rhythm. The second we start to go against that flow is the second we become unhealthy.

Science has little to do with it, because the body and the mind do not respond to it. Only individual cells in the body.

Trying to eat healthy is missing the point. Your body will tell you what it needs to eat. You just have to listen to it, and trust your body to know what is best for it.

If there is fear of the condition, people will shy away from it.

People don't say, "Hey, I don't have a goal right now, I think I will get fat!!"

The fear is there naturally. There is no need for us to add to it. The subconscious cannot read negatives. If you keep telling yourself, "I want to lose weight, I want to lose weight..." your subconscious won't read the 'lose'. Its going to read, "I want weight, I want weight!" defeating your whole goal. That is why people never lose weight. It has nothing to do with diet or exercise.

If you put it to your subconscious properly, it will do the work for you. You just have to learn it's language. You can still do the exercise, so your conscious mind won't defeat you, or so that you will feel good, but I maintain that it is mostly unneccesary.

I actually think exercise hurts the body, but that is a topic for another discussion.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

I don't think calories and nutrition and fat and exercise and that whole slew of terms cuts the mustard when it comes to explaining why people get incredibly fat or for anything at all.

This is why people tend to ignore you on the whole. You're basically saying (once again) that the english language doesn't suit you and that infact the meanings of our words should actually be different. You talk shit, you know you talk shit, we know you talk shit so what really is your motive?

All this crap about "Forcing people to think" is seriously not happening since its like me forcing someone to seriously consider that an Apple is an Orange... Its a waste of both theirs and my own time.

If your so hacked off that our words cant convey your meanings then generate your own language.

This is why people tend to ignore you on the whole.

They may not listen to me, but they certainly don't ignore me. Threads I participate in tend to accumulate a lot of posts.

You're basically saying (once again) that the english language doesn't suit you and that infact the meanings of our words should actually be different.

Not necessarily the language, but the train of thoughts we use to deal with our problems.

what really is your motive?

To change unconstructive patterns of thought into constructive ones.

Its a waste of both theirs and my own time.

If it is such a waste of your time, why do you bother replying? Nobody is forcing you to listen to me.

If your so hacked off that our words cant convey your meanings then generate your own language.

Here's a few words that I think you and I will both agree on the definitions of: Shut the fuck up.

Go read your dictionary and quit bothering me with your stupidity.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

To change unconstructive patterns of thought into constructive ones.

Isn't that a direct contradiction to what your doing though. I'd be interested to see how many people here to whom have found some "constructive" benefit to their lifes through what you have said.


Originally posted by Napsterbater

Here's a few words that I think you and I will both agree on the definitions of: Shut the fuck up.

Did you experience a "constructive pattern of thought" before you wrote that?
Originally posted by Napsterbater

Go read your dictionary and quit bothering me with your stupidity.

lol

Napster, I agree with Lokideviluk, I usually ignore your post because all you do is ramble on. You try to use alot of words{boring} to make a simple point I quess you feel it makes you look smart.

With that said I do not see how you can say eating and not moving doesn't make a difference? Of course everyone is different, I may be able to eat 10lbs of food a day and not gain while another person would blow up like a balloon. It still comes down to the individual, their intake and there energy burnt. If eating 10lbs of food a day makes a person obese then maybe they should only eat 5lbs a day? I do know for sure that a person just sitting on their butt day after day while eatting 2 pizza's chips and deep fried food will become obese, this is fact!!! Filling up on fuel and not burning it off only makes the body fuller. Could you pump 20 gallons of gas into your car day after day and not run it? Of course not, so why would you think you could to this to a body?

Isn't that a direct contradiction to what your doing though. I'd be interested to see how many people here to whom have found some "constructive" benefit to their lifes through what you have said.

Whether they see it or not or whether it even exists is of no real import to me. I am just singing a song, so to speak. You guys can make what you will of it.

Did you experience a "constructive pattern of thought" before you wrote that?

No more than you did when you decided to ignore the discussion at hand and rail at a few minor disagreements you have with my character.

Napster, I agree with Lokideviluk, I usually ignore your post because all you do is ramble on.

Certainly, that is a difficulty I have with discussion, but the points I am trying to make are subtle. It takes a lot of words to make clear the differences between my point of view and yours. It can be boring, which is why I often toss some profanity and verbal abuse in there to mix things up. I think that, though, in the end, we wouldn't have much to discuss even if our styles agreed.

Now, on to the meat of your post, something that is noticably absent from Loki's wonderful load of bull.

You say everybody is different, then contradict that when you say that it is their intake and energy burning. And you are right, a person who sits on their arse and eats nothing but junk is going to be extremely unhealthy.

But metabolisms vary greatly from person to person. What I believe is that they also vary greatly in the same person. I think that one's frame of mind has a much greater effect on a person's metabolism than science would lead you to expect.

To use your car analogy, it is impossible to turn our bodies off. Living a completely sedentary life is extremely unhealthy, but I never argued that. With the smallest of exercise, (even if its just walking to the store and back) I believe a person with the right frame of mind will burn orders of magnitude higher amounts of calories than a person with the wrong frame of mind. No need to go to the gym. What you do daily is enough.

In the case of those grossly unhealthy people, I would make the claim that the only effective thing to do would be to change ones metabolism in this way. It will still require a lifestyle change, but in the cases of the sorts of people we are talking about, I think that the smallest changes are the best ones. Getting up and walking around, bouncing on a mini-trampoline for five minutes at a time. I think a person can lose hundreds of pounds doing that alone, if they are in the right frame of mind.

Originally posted by Napsterbater


No more than you did when you decided to ignore the discussion at hand and rail at a few minor disagreements you have with my character.

.

Right.... Its just that I didnt say my motive in these discussions was to "change unconstructive patterns of thought into constructive ones" you did. So by your statement its clear your motive in that responce was a direct contradiction to your previously stated motives.

So what is you motive?

Originally posted by Napsterbater


But metabolisms vary greatly from person to person. What I believe is that they also vary greatly in the same person. I think that one's frame of mind has a much greater effect on a person's metabolism than science would lead you to expect.

You say I offer no subtance in my posts, but the reason for this is displayed before me. You have nothing to back up these claims other than, "I think this" so regardless of how many people bring to the table several thousand documented cases and a lifetime of evidence and facts, your still going to say "Well I dont believe that", So whats the point in debating such a person?


Originally posted by Napsterbater

With the smallest of exercise, (even if its just walking to the store and back) I believe a person with the right frame of mind will burn orders of magnitude higher amounts of calories than a person with the wrong frame of mind. No need to go to the gym. What you do daily is enough.


There is no proof that postive thinking can adjust your metabolism to help you lose weight/gain weight, and the reason for this is because it simply isnt true. This once again is something you dont have any evidence for and have simply decided is true without any proper medical background.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

I think that the smallest changes are the best ones. Getting up and walking around, bouncing on a mini-trampoline for five minutes at a time. I think a person can lose hundreds of pounds doing that alone, if they are in the right frame of mind.

Yes people will improve their health if they do a simple exercise as opposed to nothing, however a) without a strict dietry program and lots of aerobic excersise that isnt "start/stop" such as body combat and alot of the "Aerobic classes" they will not lose anywhere close to hundreds of pounds and b) postive thinking does not affect your metabolism. Postive thinking will get you down the gym, will put you on a healthy dietry program and keep you motivated through out. Show me evidence to say otherwise and Ill agree with you.

So what is you motive?

That is perhaps the eighth time I have seen that question since I began posting here. Perhaps this answer will satisfy you.

I have no motive. I am just enjoying myself. Why do you post here?

You have nothing to back up these claims other than, "I think this"

Certainly. I have no desire to try and prove it to anyone, so all I can do is sit here and say, "I believe". I do not care to become a scientist. I can only sit here and deal with whatever the scientists bring to us. This is one of my ways of doing that.

so regardless of how many people bring to the table several thousand documented cases and a lifetime of evidence and facts,

Nobody has done that yet, everybody is content to sit around and claim they know the truth like an idiot. If you wish to do all that work to try to disabuse me of my notion, I welcome you to try. But you aren't going to get away with an abject dismissal, well, not without me pointing it out, that is.

This once again is something you dont have any evidence for and have simply decided is true without any proper medical background.

Anecdotal evidence is good enough for me. I am not devising strategies for the nation's health care system, I am deciding what to use and believe in in my day to day life. I certainly don't need a medical background for that.

without a strict dietry program and lots of aerobic excersise that isnt "start/stop" such as body combat and alot of the "Aerobic classes" they will not lose anywhere close to hundreds of pounds

I simply don't believe it, for reasons I have already stated. Do you have anything to back it up, or are you just going to rail against my negative position like a logical moron? I am taking the negative position here, it is you that has to back up your outrageous claims.

Show me proof that the overwhelming amount of Americans on the diet and exercise plan that don't lose weight are just doing it wrong, that working harder is going to make them lose the weight and keep it off. We can start with that.

Or, if you don't care to do the work, feel free to fall back on character defamation, baseless claims, and other assorted idiocy. The result will be the same in either case.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

Or, if you don't care to do the work, feel free to fall back on character defamation, baseless claims, and other assorted idiocy. The result will be the same in either case.

"The result with be the same in either case"

Meaning you'll still stick to your guns regardless, thus any interaction with you will never be debate. It can't be since you have just stated that you have no interest in facts and evidence so you will always be right 100% of the time in your own mind.

You enjoy your Narcissistic Personality Disorder now :)

You enjoy your Narcissistic Personality Disorder now

Will do. Instead of proving your points, you prove mine! Thanks for all the hard work.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Will do. Instead of proving your points, you prove mine! Thanks for all the hard work.

lol do you think anyone on here buys your bullshit?. Your simply an insecure kid who is just screaming for attention. The thing I cant work out is just what happened to you to cause this personality disorder. Id love to see a picture of you, i think that would clarify a few things.

The thing I cant work out is just what happened to you to cause this personality disorder.

Fun, fun, happy, happy! I would have so much fun saying oddball shit just to throw you off were we to ever meet in person...

Id love to see a picture of you, i think that would clarify a few things.

Coming right up. Look for it in the picture thread.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Fun, fun, happy, happy! I would have so much fun saying oddball shit just to throw you off were we to ever meet in person...


lol Mate if we were to meet in person I'd be forced to introduce you to my chelsea supporting freinds at their local pub, they do so like guys like you ;)

"Chelsea supporting friends"?

You'll forgive me if I don't know what you are talking about, would you elaborate?

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Now, on to the meat of your post, something that is noticably absent from Loki's wonderful load of bull.

You say everybody is different, then contradict that when you say that it is their intake and energy burning. And you are right, a person who sits on their arse and eats nothing but junk is going to be extremely unhealthy.

I don't see how this is a contradiction. I may have a high metabolism while yours may be low, either way we still have to burn what our individual body considers its amount of fuel.

But metabolisms vary greatly from person to person. What I believe is that they also vary greatly in the same person. I think that one's frame of mind has a much greater effect on a person's metabolism than science would lead you to expect.

I think I'm getting your point, if I am in a good/hyper mood then I will burn more fuel then if I were depressed. I believe this is true, but I also have to listen to my body when it says "no more food"

To use your car analogy, it is impossible to turn our bodies off. Living a completely sedentary life is extremely unhealthy, but I never argued that. With the smallest of exercise, (even if its just walking to the store and back) I believe a person with the right frame of mind will burn orders of magnitude higher amounts of calories than a person with the wrong frame of mind. No need to go to the gym. What you do daily is enough.

So if you sat on a couch and I sat on a couch eating junk food, your in a good mood I'm depressed. I would get fat but you would stay skinny? You may have a small point but after not moving wouldn't your mood start to go sour? If you were in a good mood you would probably be more likely to get up and shake the booty. Where as a depressed person would just sit there eatting more garbage. I feel that a proper diet does alot for a persons mood. I have even tried my theory out on myself. Eat junk food for a week then the next week eat healthy and see how much your additude changes.

In the case of those grossly unhealthy people, I would make the claim that the only effective thing to do would be to change ones metabolism in this way.

Changing ones metabolism requires proper diet and exercise. Their mood will change also but it has to start with the foods that the body needs not junk. Exercise is the only way to build up the muscles to get rid of the fat. Body builders lose weight even when they sleep because muscles eat the fuel. fat people gain because fat is just a storage depot.

It will still require a lifestyle change, but in the cases of the sorts of people we are talking about, I think that the smallest changes are the best ones. Getting up and walking around, bouncing on a mini-trampoline for five minutes at a time. I think a person can lose hundreds of pounds doing that alone, if they are in the right frame of mind.

I agree a person with a positive additude will be more likely to lose weight then someone that is negative. But there still has to be diet exercise etc.... one won't work without the other. Losing weight has alot to do with will power but there is no one yet that has mind controled weight loose{an obese person can not think themselfs skinny}.

I'd be forced to introduce you to my chelsea supporting freinds at their local pub

:D rofl

but I also have to listen to my body when it says "no more food"

Listening to the body is key to putting yourself in the right frame of mind. You cannot ignore it and hope to get anywhere but more fat. As I've said before, the body has it's own rhythm. Our minds interfere with that rhythm and that makes us unhealthy. So far, so good.

You may have a small point but after not moving wouldn't your mood start to go sour?

That depends on how well you are listening to your body. When the body feels good, you feel good. I find myself getting restless all the time. I get up, stretch around, maybe pace a little bit, then sit back down. I think that small action does far more for my body than six miles of running.

I feel that a proper diet does alot for a persons mood.

You are exactly right, however, we may differ on that a proper diet entails. I think the only mantra that needs heeding as far as nutrition goes is to eat a variety. My preferred diet includes lots of fruits and starches, and little meat and dairy. According to some nutritionists, that wouldn't be healthy at all, but I think that it is the perfect diet for me.

Another person may enjoy more meat and less fruit. That would be just as healthy as my diet.

Many college kids go for a diet of junk. I don't have a problem with that, because their lifestyle fits in with that diet.

In short, I think nutrition science is mostly garbage. It is an entirely overcomplicated way of gaoing against your bodies wishes.

Exercise is the only way to build up the muscles to get rid of the fat.

Exercise actually destroys your muscles, particularly weightlifting. The muscle grows back while you are resting, they grow back bigger as a response to the abuse you are giving them. That is why people who work the same muscle group day after day never get any stronger. The exception is aerobic exercise, which strengthens the heart. The heart, however is the one muscle you don't want to get very big, otherwise it leads to cardiac problems. Running destroys your leg muscles.

My unscientific idea is that it is the expenditure of will that is responsible for burning fat when you exercise. Once the weight comes off, the lack of will makes the fat cells come back.

But there still has to be diet exercise etc.... one won't work without the other. Losing weight has alot to do with will power but there is no one yet that has mind controled weight loose

I have heard of people in my martial arts that, through breathing exercises, and sheer act of will, have lost weight noticably in a short span of time, like fifteen minutes. The pounds literally melted off of them. For those who cannot do that, a simple diet of whatever your body wants, instead of what your mind craves, and daily exercises consisting of whatever stretches your body wants to perform, instead of whatever asinine daily aerobics routine a personal trainer would have you do, and a more happy and fuller life than you are leading now should be more than enough to melt away dozens to hundreds of pounds over a few weeks to months.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

My unscientific idea is that it is the expenditure of will that is responsible for burning fat when you exercise. Once the weight comes off, the lack of will makes the fat cells come back.


Thats like saying Its the driver that powers the car, when he stops so does the power to the car.

Thats like saying Its the driver that powers the car, when he stops so does the power to the car.

A human body is not a car.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Listening to the body is key to putting yourself in the right frame of mind. You cannot ignore it and hope to get anywhere but more fat. As I've said before, the body has it's own rhythm. Our minds interfere with that rhythm and that makes us unhealthy. So far, so good.

agreed



I find myself getting restless all the time. I get up, stretch around, maybe pace a little bit, then sit back down. I think that small action does far more for my body than six miles of running.

stretching is a form of exercise it makes the muscles move which keeps them from atrophy. BUT stretching is not better then running 6 miles, have you ever ran 6 miles?



You are exactly right, however, we may differ on that a proper diet entails. I think the only mantra that needs heeding as far as nutrition goes is to eat a variety. My preferred diet includes lots of fruits and starches, and little meat and dairy. According to some nutritionists, that wouldn't be healthy at all, but I think that it is the perfect diet for me.

That may be a good diet for you but for a person that is working their muscles hard {body builder farm hand etc...} that diet probably would not work.

Many college kids go for a diet of junk. I don't have a problem with that, because their lifestyle fits in with that diet.

college kids{key word} can burn fuel faster then adults thats part of life. Now with that said no one can live a healthy life off of just junk food, even college kids need nutrition.

In short, I think nutrition science is mostly garbage. It is an entirely overcomplicated way of gaoing against your bodies wishes.

I think nutitional science has its +'s it tells us what foods are good and what foods do basically nothing. Compare an apple to a bag of skittles.



Exercise actually destroys your muscles, particularly weightlifting.

Wrong, it tears down the muscle so that the muscle can rebuild bigger and better.

The muscle grows back while you are resting, they grow back bigger as a response to the abuse you are giving them.

Wrong again, a muscle can not grow back it is just repairing and becomming bigger and stronger. Example, lets say you own a house but it is to small, you don't destroy the whole house to make it bigger, you tear down a part and add a room.

That is why people who work the same muscle group day after day never get any stronger.

They never get bigger because they don't give their muscle a chance to rebuild the damage. Take the example above, you keep tearing down walls in your house but never rebuild anything your house actually gets smaller.

The exception is aerobic exercise, which strengthens the heart. The heart, however is the one muscle you don't want to get very big, otherwise it leads to cardiac problems. Running destroys your leg muscles.

Anything done in moderation is good running does not destroy anything, weight lifting does not destroy anything, the part that people need to understand is how to do it correctly, just like eating.

My unscientific idea is that it is the expenditure of will that is responsible for burning fat when you exercise. Once the weight comes off, the lack of will makes the fat cells come back.

The willpower has to become part of a persons life they need to eat exercise{even a little} and keep focused.



I have heard of people in my martial arts that, through breathing exercises, and sheer act of will, have lost weight noticably in a short span of time, like fifteen minutes.

{A}martial arts is a form of exercise for body and mind it is not sitting on a couch eating chips ;)

{B}I would really like to see solid proof of someone losing weight by will{mind control}. Weight can be lost fast by sweating but that is fluids not fats.


For those who cannot do that, a simple diet of whatever your body wants, instead of what your mind craves, and daily exercises consisting of whatever stretches your body wants to perform, instead of whatever asinine daily aerobics routine a personal trainer would have you do, and a more happy and fuller life than you are leading now should be more than enough to melt away dozens to hundreds of pounds over a few weeks to months.

I agree that the body will let a person know what it needs if they can seperate the difference between an apple and a candy bar. If a person is way over weight then they will have to work much harder {aerobics} to lose unneeded lbs.

stretching is a form of exercise it makes the muscles move which keeps them from atrophy. BUT stretching is not better then running 6 miles, have you ever ran 6 miles?

Yes. It feels great after I'm done. I still don't think its very good for the body.

That may be a good diet for you but for a person that is working their muscles hard {body builder farm hand etc...} that diet probably would not work.

My whole point is that nobody else can tell anyone what their best diet it. It has to come from listening to one's body.

Now with that said no one can live a healthy life off of just junk food, even college kids need nutrition.

I have already said that I think the whole idea of nutrition is a load of bull. College kids get, what is in my mind, perfect exercise, which consists of walking from class to class. So long as they don't overeat, I think they can be healthy no matter what they eat. Of course, if they actually listened to their body, they could probably eat healthier, and make their mind work better, but they can do alright.

I think nutitional science has its +'s it tells us what foods are good and what foods do basically nothing. Compare an apple to a bag of skittles.

I do not think we need scientists to tell us these things. Only our bodies. I hate most candy. I'm also not to fond of apples much. I love oranges, though, I prefer drinking orange juice. I think a person's body will tell them what is good food or not, if one only listens to it.

Wrong, it tears down the muscle so that the muscle can rebuild bigger and better.

That is what I meant. I don't think purposefully tearing something down is good for it, even though it can feel great and make your muscles stronger.

They never get bigger because they don't give their muscle a chance to rebuild the damage. Take the example above, you keep tearing down walls in your house but never rebuild anything your house actually gets smaller.

That is what I said.

Anything done in moderation is good running does not destroy anything, weight lifting does not destroy anything, the part that people need to understand is how to do it correctly, just like eating.

Yes, but I don't think science is any help when it comes to telling us how to do these things correctly, whether it be running or eating. Nobody else can tell us how our bodies work.

{A}martial arts is a form of exercise for body and mind it is not sitting on a couch eating chips

They were not exercising, they were merely standing still. They were likely holding their breath and pumping an insane amount of energy through their body.

{B}I would really like to see solid proof of someone losing weight by will{mind control}. Weight can be lost fast by sweating but that is fluids not fats.

So would I, so that a bad paradigm can be tossed aside. At any rate, I do not know if weight can be lost by will alone, that is my suspicion. If I could have proved it, I would have done so already. All I have for you is the anecdotal stuff, and ideas. If I had a lot of weight to lose, I would try it myself, and maybe write a book about it. But, as you can see from my picture...

If a person is way over weight then they will have to work much harder {aerobics} to lose unneeded lbs.

Strangely enough, I think you have it backwards. I think it is the persons with a little weight to lose, who finds it the hardest to lose that weight and keep it off. I've heard stories from people I trust of people who are very obese lose lots of weight doing hardly anything at all, like bouncing on a trampoline. And I've heard far more stories of people working for months and failing to lose fifteen pounds.

I think the key component here is willpower. The person who wants to lose fifteen pounds, even though he or she may really want that weight off, is not presenting the deal correctly to their subconscious, which ends up working against them. I think it is harder to have a mental image of yourself with fifteen less pounds than 200 less pounds, which makes visualisation exercises of dubious merit. I've heard a few unverified stories of people losing weight with visualisation alone, with no lifestyle changes. I don't believe or disbelieve it, but I cannot (or don't care enough to, I'm not fat) verify it.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

My whole point is that nobody else can tell anyone what their best diet it. It has to come from listening to one's body.


A man is clincally obesse ok, His "body" is telling him he is hungry ALL the time and so he eats and eats.

His docter asks the man "You will die unless you radically change your diet"

The man doesnt want to die and wishes he could stop eating, he hates the way he looks and the health problems that come with his size.

On the way home the man meets a Samaritan whom he tells his problems to. The Samaritan promises to work with him to get him down to his ideal weight, living with him and making sure he sticks to the diet and the exercise. They both go to the docter and the docter writes up a detailed plan for the man to follow.

Over the course of time the man losses the weight because the Samaritan and Docter where both pushing him and making sure he didnt quit.

Now Napster, Where these two people wrong to do what they did? and should the man have listened to his body? Should the man have simply done his little walk to the bathroom each day and hoped a happy smile would have destroyed the fat cells?.

If i wanted to know about the best way to make lose weight Id ask someone who has done it, If I were skinny and wanted to gain muscle Id speak to someone who has done it.

If that man had simply listened to his body he would have died or at the very best, continued to have health problems and depression over his phsyical appearance

Now Napster, Where these two people wrong to do what they did? and should the man have listened to his body? Should the man have simply done his little walk to the bathroom each day and hoped a happy smile would have destroyed the fat cells?.

Nothing. He lost the weight and kept it off. If it works...

If i wanted to know about the best way to make lose weight Id ask someone who has done it, If I were skinny and wanted to gain muscle Id speak to someone who has done it.

So would I. If I were trying to be healthy, however, I would listen to my body.

If that man had simply listened to his body he would have died or at the very best, continued to have health problems and depression over his phsyical appearance

The man obviously was in such a state that he needed intervention, otherwise he might die. His body was likely so messed up that it needed to be shocked out of its current state, which is what the doc and the samaritan provided him. He did the work, and, more importantly, cultivated the will, to lose the weight. Just because a doctor is mostly useless for me, doesn't mean it might not be useless for others. I just don't think science has anything to do with it. It could have been some loser who cheated his way through med school.

Some people need a doctor to tell them what to do. It is not the science that I think is important but that the doctor's authority, because he is incapable of telling himself. He is so out of touch with his body that there is no other way.

The world doesn't come to an end if one lacks willpower. Existance provides another way, which it did when it provided the Samaritan.

Originally posted by Napsterbater




[QUOTE]Originally posted by Napsterbater
[B]So would I. If I were trying to be healthy, however, I would listen to my body.

But that man listened to his body and it didnt make him healthy? A great percentage of America are listening to their bodies and its not making them healthy? You know what to eat to make you healthy because of the science that has come before you that realised such foods were healthy.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Just because a doctor is mostly useless for me, doesn't mean it might not be useless for others. I just don't think science has anything to do with it. It could have been some loser who cheated his way through med school.

Science was what taught the Docter how to best deal with that situation and what advice to offer the patient. Lets face reality here for a second, the chance of him being a Med student who had cheated through med school is pretty slim.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Some people need a doctor to tell them what to do. It is not the science that I think is important but that the doctor's authority, because he is incapable of telling himself. He is so out of touch with his body that there is no other way.

Of course its the Docters Authority that the patient is looking for. The patient realises the Docter has gained that authority through a great many years of research, study and learning. All of which has been scientifically studied and enhanced before hand for the Docter to study.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
The world doesn't come to an end if one lacks willpower. Existance provides another way, which it did when it provided the Samaritan.

Existance provided the Samaritan?, ok I didnt realise you believe in Divine intervention. But even so, This isnt the Will of the person here this is either Nature ie: Gaya, or one of the many God's thats decided to help the man. I dont believe in this so this is a mute point as neither of us can prove such a case is or isnt possible.

But that man listened to his body and it didnt make him healthy? A great percentage of America are listening to their bodies and its not making them healthy? You know what to eat to make you healthy because of the science that has come before you that realised such foods were healthy.

No, I know what I like, and what I don't like. This man we are speaking of has probably never been in touch with his body since he was a small child. Instead, his mind tells him he wants all these unhealthy things, and since the mind is stronger than the body, he listens to that.

Science was what taught the Docter how to best deal with that situation and what advice to offer the patient. Lets face reality here for a second, the chance of him being a Med student who had cheated through med school is pretty slim.

So it did. But I maintain that it is mostly unneccesary, and that it is the man's mind and will that is making him healthy, not the science. And the chances of him not being a good doc vary greatly with the country.

Of course its the Docters Authority that the patient is looking for. The patient realises the Docter has gained that authority through a great many years of research, study and learning. All of which has been scientifically studied and enhanced before hand for the Docter to study.

Certainly the patient has to have some reason for trusting the doc's word. I maintain that it is the M.D. at the end of the doc's business card that does the actual trick of essentially getting him to change his ways.

ok I didnt realise you believe in Divine intervention.

I suppose you could think of that as divine intervention, but I do not. There is no god, no conscious choice that caused existance to send a Samaritan to this man, in my view. It just happened as a result of forces the mind cannot see.

For some people, there is a chance. For others, there is none. This is the way of existance.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
So would I. If I were trying to be healthy, however, I would listen to my body.
There are a couple problems with this. Firstly, cardiovascular disease has no symptoms besides high blood pressure and either heart attack or stroke. Even if you listen to your body, you will still never know if you're on the brink of a heart attack or not.

Secondly, our bodies were not designed (if you will; I use the term colloquially) for the abundance of food we have now. Our bodies were designed, rather, for times of hardship and starvation. This explains why we tend to take on excess fat when there is an abundance of food, so that when the next famine hits, we won't die. Problem is, there are no famines in modern Western society. So we're in "abundance mode" all the time, and our bodies say "Eat! There's plenty of food available!", so we do. One actually needs to fight his body's urges to maintain a healthy weight.

Its rather strange, but I find myself going hungry for a few hours before I actually eat. I also don't eat nearly as much as I would otherwise, because I get full much quicker.

And I'm not so sure that your body won't give you any warning signs at all. They may not be symptoms as far as a doc would say, but I think a person would at least feel different, perhaps enough to get checked out soon.

Anyway, that is what regular checkups are for. Medicine and science have their places, I just don't think they do a whole lot for body weight.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Instead, his mind tells him he wants all these unhealthy things, and since the mind is stronger than the body, he listens to that.
So when its bad its his mind and when its good its his body? That reminded me of the "Its the Devil when its bad and God when its good", just seems a niave ignorant view to safeguard your ideals to me.



Originally posted by Napsterbater
So it did. But I maintain that it is mostly unneccesary, and that it is the man's mind and will that is making him healthy, not the science. And the chances of him not being a good doc vary greatly with the country. Well lets imagine then he is in Beverly Hills, and also I pointed out that the mans will was nonexistant and so there would have been a great many times where the man would have quit was it not for the persistance of the Docter and Samaritan.

Without external Aid, A Mans will and postive attitude will make him do the excersise and eat a healthy balanced diet, but its the diet and excersise that make his body healthy... not his will. I promise you Science is on my side with this.



Originally posted by Napsterbater
Certainly the patient has to have some reason for trusting the doc's word. I maintain that it is the M.D. at the end of the doc's business card that does the actual trick of essentially getting him to change his ways.

Yes of course it is *sighs* are you going out of your way to ignore my point? The M.D. symbolizes to the patient that this docter has learnt and done the research to earn that, thus meaning the docter is vastly more qualified to aid him in his situation.

Your idea that all docters are simply med students who have bucked the system is you scratching the bottom of the barrel.


Originally posted by Napsterbater

It just happened as a result of forces the mind cannot see.

Which could be God for all we know? Could be Buddha, you just dont know.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

For some people, there is a chance. For others, there is none. This is the way of existance.

So an unknown force is controlling all our destinys and all choices we think we are making have already been decided? Or is this "unknown force" cherry picking people it likes to help out?

Originally posted by Napsterbater

And I'm not so sure that your body won't give you any warning signs at all. They may not be symptoms as far as a doc would say, but I think a person would at least feel different, perhaps enough to get checked out soon.


I think the problem here is your taking your own personal bodys messages and trying to tell us that this is the way for everyone else, where as we are taking a vast documented number of peoples cases and saying this is the most likely.

Its fine having your own ideas about things but being ignorant of Science for the sake of it seems an unintellegent responce.

Borg you brought up a good point about the design of the body. Lack of exercise and the built in mode of eating can end up being a bad thing. So maybe obese people are listening to some sort of forgotten eat eat eat message? Also once a person is obese don't they even eat more?

I agree with Loki, Napster, you are using what you personally know and comparing it with all of society. People are different and without outside info sometimes things can go bad. I think we have to learn from the environment and surroundings more then we can from ourselfs. Of course we still need to read our body language but we also need to learn from the environment.

So when its bad its his mind and when its good its his body? That reminded me of the "Its the Devil when its bad and God when its good", just seems a niave ignorant view to safeguard your ideals to me.

That is exactly what I am saying. The body has its own rhythm, and when you supplant that with your mind, you are only hurting your body.

Without external Aid, A Mans will and postive attitude will make him do the excersise and eat a healthy balanced diet, but its the diet and excersise that make his body healthy... not his will. I promise you Science is on my side with this.

How many different variations of this argument are you going to throw at me? Simply saying it over and over isn't going to make me believe it. It is not diet and exercise or his will that is going to make him healthy, those things will only make him lose weight. To get healthy, he must listen to his body.

The M.D. symbolizes to the patient that this docter has learnt and done the research to earn that, thus meaning the docter is vastly more qualified to aid him in his situation.

I don't care what it symbolises. So long as the patient believes that the doc is somebody he should listen to, he will probably benefit from the advice. It doesn't really matter, in this case. Now, should the patient have heart problems, something science does much better with than weight loss, he better be a good doctor.

Your idea that all docters are simply med students who have bucked the system is you scratching the bottom of the barrel.

I didn't say that, I said they could have been and it wouldn't make a whit of difference. Where is your reading comprehension?

Which could be God for all we know? Could be Buddha, you just dont know.

Are you dropping your argument to try to get me to become agnostic?

So an unknown force is controlling all our destinys and all choices we think we are making have already been decided? Or is this "unknown force" cherry picking people it likes to help out?

If you want to argue free will, make another thread. I am more than willing to tell you my beliefs, but not at the expense of the argument at hand.

I think the problem here is your taking your own personal bodys messages and trying to tell us that this is the way for everyone else, where as we are taking a vast documented number of peoples cases and saying this is the most likely.

You are essentially right, and I admitted as such when we started this article. I don't know what kind of debate you were shooting for, but I am bucking the whole of science for what would essentially be my whim. It isn't that I am ignorant of science, I am probably more informed about nutrition and weight loss science than the average American, having ever been curious about those little labels on the packages of food we buy, just that I don't believe it.

I have a lot of experiences that buck the whole idea. I would not think of taking all the doctors and nutritionists away from people. They serve an excellent purpose. I just don't think all that stuff they are studying does a lick of good. I don't think it is needed to maintain a healthy body weight. I don't think it is necessary to lose weight. Some people might, but the vast majority of people don't. I don't think anything else is needed, except to listen to one's body.

I am not placing anything except a few ideas to replace the doctors and medicine. I believe it could be anything that is in concert with universal laws. Visualisation techniques, meditation, hell, you could just really believe you will lose weight, and I think your subconscious will respond. It is different for every person.

I never came here and said that my ideas were scientific and useful for everybody. Useful they are, but not if you don't believe it. I never pretended that this came out of anything but my own experience. I am too busy living my ideas to want to spend an assload of time proving them. They work well, for me.

I am simply here saying that I don't believe in science and nutrition when it comes to losing weight. I don't know what you guys are turning my argument into, but that has never been disputed.

It doesn't matter how much science you throw at me. It is like using the Bible to prove itself. All you will get from me is how I think this situation had turned out with my own understanding.

Originally posted by Napsterbater


It doesn't matter how much science you throw at me. It is like using the Bible to prove itself. All you will get from me is how I think this situation had turned out with my own understanding.

Pretty much stating that no matter what, You will always be right. At this point I'm going to leave you to your own ignorance and not bother wasting anymore of my time.

You do that. And, while you are, try arguing an atheist into accepting Christ. Then argue a Christian into accepting rejecting God. Then, when you fail to succeed, sit around and blame their ignorance. Say they have to be always right. Because that is essentially what you are doing here.

Napsterbater: Here's my unscientific and unverified opinion that fits in with the discussion at hand.
Everybody else: Hmm, interesting, argue, argue, argue.
Napsterbater: *happily* argue, argue, argue.
Loki: Bullshit, bullshit, I hate you, ego, science, bullshit, ego.
Napsterbater has heard this all before.
Loki: Because your opinion is unverified and unscientific, I conclude that you always have to be right and are being ignorant.
Everybody else: We agree!
Napsterbater yawns.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Then, when you fail to succeed, sit around and blame their ignorance. Say they have to be always right. Because that is essentially what you are doing here.

Well yeh? Whats your point?

That you are full of shit.

lol ok Napster,

Having seen your pictures now It does make sense.

Sure it does... :o