ZING!

The Boondocks 9-5-05 (http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/)

You guys seem to talk alot about them, so it seemed fitting.

How goes the plans Loki?

He came round and will continue to do so every week, apparently according to him this is a way for me to learn the truth. I didnt have a digital recorder on hand and honestly suck at questioning him.

Its mentally draining (each session lasting about 3 hours) because he point blank refuses to check anything in his Bible. (he flicks through and then changes the subject), and Im too nice in person to get assaultive with him... *sighs*

I like them though because I learn about things in the Bible (albeit from a JW's perspective) and It means I have more ammo for the next time.

Truly fucking irrating though when they kept saying stuff like "Blah blah bible quote... This is FACT!", with me sitting there going... "Well its not is it?"

InfidelGuy came up trumps on a couple of points, but overall he just really has a knack for ignoring what I'm saying and is honestly a lot better at politically avoiding a point than I am. But like I said Im learning his methods so each session Ill be better prepared.

Another thing he bangs on about is.. "When I was your age I thought I knew it all as well.. (i dont by the way proclaim to know it all, much the opposite, yet he ignores this) I met a young man whom was in this crazy Jehovah club and I scorned it as you do now, Well I thought Id ask him lots of questions he couldnt answer but you know what (*groans*), He answered them ALL! and with intellegent answers that I couldnt refute."

I chuckle and go "Yeh.. yeh ok"

Im not smart enough (or learned enough in the bible & its contradictions) to tackle him properly and that is the most frustrating thing.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
InfidelGuy came up trumps on a couple of pointsDelighted to hear it.
Another thing he bangs on about is.. "When I was your age I thought I knew it all as well.. (i dont by the way proclaim to know it all, much the opposite, yet he ignores this) I met a young man whom was in this crazy Jehovah club and I scorned it as you do now, Well I thought Id ask him lots of questions he couldnt answer but you know what (*groans*), He answered them ALL! and with intellegent answers that I couldnt refute." What a low tactic. It's certainly true that I have changed since my early 20s and some of the 'certainties' I had then make me cringe now. But at 33 people senior to me still say "I was so naive in my early 30s etc". I guess if people lived to 200 they would tell 80 year olds "I was so naive in my early 80s" ad infinitim...

Next time he pulls that one you could say "if it is a question of age how come not everyone as old as you is a JW?". Indeed people deconvert from JW in droves, suggesting, if anything, a negative correlation between JW belief and maturity.

One tactic you might use is to treat him as a fixture of your life and not take him seriously at all, whenever you don't feel like it. Like, literally pick up a book and start reading whenever he gets particularly annoying. Just find things to do so he isn't taking up the whole block of time. It would force him to realize that he is being a burden and either change his tactics, or quit bothering you.

I'm not sure how well that sort of thing would go over in the UK, but in the US we are very conscious of our time. If you need to go to the supermarket, drag him along with you, and force him to give his arguments in public. That would make for an amusing sight, no? Debating religion at the checkout line! Just do little things so that your consciousness isn't fully occupied by him for the whole interview, and I think your debates would go much better. Logic isn't the only way to win an argument.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
One tactic you might use is to treat him as a fixture of your life and not take him seriously at all, whenever you don't feel like it. Like, literally pick up a book and start reading whenever he gets particularly annoying.

I dont wish to be so very rude to him. He is offering his time, which from our conversations, seems to be alot more pressured than mine. Whilst it can be sometimes very draining, I am appreciative of the experience.


Originally posted by Napsterbater
Just find things to do so he isn't taking up the whole block of time. It would force him to realize that he is being a burden and either change his tactics, or quit bothering you.

Remember that I invited him in. If he changed tactics It would mean Id have to start again at learning his ways, where as at the moment Im steadily building up ways to deal with his mentality.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I'm not sure how well that sort of thing would go over in the UK, but in the US we are very conscious of our time.

I dont think an awareness of time is specifically country based, I believe it to be a personal thing. I myself am not worried that I could have been doing something else during those hours etc, Where as perhaps someone who had their own newly fledge business would have...

Originally posted by Napsterbater

Logic isn't the only way to win an argument.

Its not really a case of winning or losing since the only acceptable conditions for that would be either him renouncing his faith or me taking up faith. Neither of which will happen.

Its just a way for me to get information about the bible and JW's without reading it, so that I may better express myself on these boards. Contrary to perhaps previous behaviour, i do wish to be able to hold some sort of contingent point of view etc.

Remember that I invited him in. If he changed tactics It would mean Id have to start again at learning his ways, where as at the moment Im steadily building up ways to deal with his mentality.

You are looking at and responding to the whole person, not just the one talking to you three hours a week, trying to convert you. Doing such things allows you to get further input on how he as a person is. Getting to know his humanity. Such things will only help you to deal with his mentality and his style of argument. It isn't just to be rude.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
It isn't just to be rude.

But you and I both know that by performing such an act, will create unneeded tension. How would you like it if you were talking to someone about a subject you were passionate about and they suddenly got a book and started reading it, ignoring you completely.

Its interesting how you truly dont value others feelings and would deliberatly set out to upset them just to see how they respond.

I do it many times to people, or something similar. I am still listening, but my attention is divided. Most people don't care. I don't deal much with people that demand my undivided attention every second I am with them. The reduction in sensory input actually helps me function better, particularly when I am feeling overwhelmed.

deliberatly set out to upset them just to see how they respond.

There is a good reason I do that. In the beginning stages of a relationship, it is important to get to know a person's boundaries. The input I get from putting them through a little hell now is far more valuable to me than finding out all of a sudden when the proverbial shit hits the fan, and there is no time to make allowances for anothers boundaries. With the Indian dude I'm talking about in another post, I am putting him through quite a bit of hell, and he passes with flying colors. That is how I know a person is really somebody I want to get into business with.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I do it many times to people, or something similar. I am still listening, but my attention is divided. Most people don't care. I don't deal much with people that demand my undivided attention every second I am with them. The reduction in sensory input actually helps me function better, particularly when I am feeling overwhelmed.

Your showing a intense disrespect for the person by doing that. Perhaps Americans differ on what respectful conversation is but here in the UK, when engaged in conversation with someone you do not rudely ignore them as if they were a fly buzzing in your ear.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
That is how I know a person is really somebody I want to get into business with.

This is my point however. If I were in a business meeting communicating to a third party to whom wanted to service us, I would indeed be probing them with difficult questions, creating tension to see how they responded etc, however I would remain polite in doing so.

However what I have with the JW isnt a business meeting, so I would not use those inpersonal conversational methods.

It seems to be whilst you are probing and upsetting people for a reason, you are not at all bothered by these peoples feelings. I would go as far as to say that people arnt even people to you anymore there just objects for your personal enjoyment, because you think you can manipulate them to your own needs.

Generally this isn't accepted behaviour and regardless of your "everybody remembers/likes me" stance, (which ironically falls flat on this forum?), I suspect if you keep it up you will eventually be left with only a handful of people able to tolerate you and even then, they probably wont want to see you all that often.

Unless they have done something to deny themselves of it, You should always give people your respect.

these peoples feelings. I would go as far as to say that people arnt even people to you anymore there just objects for your personal enjoyment, because you think you can manipulate them to your own needs.

Again, we are covering my solipsism in another forum. My point is not that I do these things, not that they might be considered rude to others, because they can, and are, but that they are a normal part of everyday conversations with people, and that we do them anyway, regardless of how you might think of them. You've "tuned someone out" haven't you? That accomplishes the exact same thing without the visual cues to let them know you are being rude. Is is still rude if they don't know about it?

It seems to be whilst you are probing and upsetting people for a reason, you are not at all bothered by these peoples feelings.

It took a long time for me to get this way, because I am also highly sensitive. Other people's feelings affect me strongly. This type of attitude is a defense against those who would take advantage of that. Like your JW friend. People who take advantage of other's politeness don't deserve it.

I suspect if you keep it up you will eventually be left with only a handful of people able to tolerate you and even then, they probably wont want to see you all that often.

Quite purposeful, that, though not in the way you think of it. I have indeed a handful of people that I consider worth being around. People I can give my full trust to, people I don't have to worry about. People who realize that it is people that have to be protected, not things. As I meet more and get to know people as a whole a little bit better, that circle will expand. I am still young, no?

(which ironically falls flat on this forum?)

Please tell me how many threads you have going on the philosophy forums again? Do you even have any philisophical thoughts, or are you just holding them back, saving your words for whenever somebody you don't like says something you don't like? I've been told a few times that this sub-forum pretty much sucked before I came around. And you tell me I'm "falling flat?" Please.

You should always give people your respect.

Don't get me started on the 'respect' that we give each other, which resembles nothing so much as a filthy politician's promises to the voters.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I've been told a few times that this sub-forum pretty much sucked before I came around. And you tell me I'm "falling flat?" Please.

Really? So all the thoughts views, experiences and ideas expressed in the "RELIGON & Philosophy" forum was nothing compared to your babbiling? Dont suppose you could quote those members names to which told you this?



Originally posted by Napsterbater
Don't get me started on the 'respect' that we give each other, which resembles nothing so much as a filthy politician's promises to the voters.
I said that you must grant respect to a person UNLESS they have done something to deny such. You said a great many things to deny yourself of any such respect.

Dont suppose you could quote those members names to which told you this?

I'd rather not.

So all the thoughts views, experiences and ideas expressed in the "RELIGON & Philosophy" forum was nothing compared to your babbiling?

What keeps a forum like this going is the individual poster's ability to keep things interesting. Philosophy and religion involve wrapping your mind around difficult concepts. Myself, Evakian, Blob, Dan and the other assorted regulars have the ability to take strange concepts and run with them. I just do do to a greater extent. What you call babbling is in reality a larger and more flexible outlook, something all the regulars here possess. Babbling is what the mind does when it is deeply involved in philisophical thought.

The ability and the courage to come up with strange outlooks on ideas and share them is exactly what keeps things interesting.

I said that you must grant respect to a person UNLESS they have done something to deny such.

And I say that's bullshit. Respect is earned, not given.

You said a great many things to deny yourself of any such respect.

I neither want nor need your 'respect'.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
I'd rather not.

Because they quite clearly dont exist. It was obvious before, but this just goes to prove it.


Originally posted by Napsterbater

What keeps a forum like this going is the individual poster's ability to keep things interesting.

Amongst alot of other things.


Originally posted by Napsterbater
Philosophy and religion involve wrapping your mind around difficult concepts. Myself, Evakian, Blob, Dan and the other assorted regulars have the ability to take strange concepts and run with them.

What exactly do you mean by run with them? Agree with you? Argue the point? Discuss your rights and wrongs?


Originally posted by Napsterbater
What you call babbling is in reality a larger and more flexible outlook, something all the regulars here possess.

Nope, your quite wrong. Please see below.

Originally posted by Napsterbater

Babbling is what the mind does when it is deeply involved in philisophical thought.

Babbling = To utter a meaningless confusion of words or sounds

Babbling = To blurt out impulsively; disclose without careful consideration.

Cant quite see how that describes being deep in philisophical thought myself.


Originally posted by Napsterbater
The ability and the courage to come up with strange outlooks on ideas and share them is exactly what keeps things interesting.

Its not just about coming up with querky strange questions "you think" no one has heard before in order to get your daily fix of self worth. We question things as we see them and just because you feel that its not "strange" or "thought provoking" enough for you doesnt make it any less interesting for the rest of us.

Id say someone coming onto this forum announcing he was the messiah using a complicated set of numbers would have been a very very strange outlook.... didnt make it all that interesting though.




Originally posted by Napsterbater


I neither want nor need your 'respect'.

It has long since been withdrawn.

Because they quite clearly dont exist. It was obvious before, but this just goes to prove it.

*shrugs* They know who they are. If they want to back me up, that's fine, if they don't, it doesn't really matter to me.

What exactly do you mean by run with them? Agree with you? Argue the point? Discuss your rights and wrongs?

Any of these things, instead of, "you are so full of shit and when I was your age..."

Cant quite see how that describes being deep in philisophical thought myself.

That is because you are not a philosopher.

We question things as we see them and just because you feel that its not "strange" or "thought provoking" enough for you doesnt make it any less interesting for the rest of us.

That doesn't really matter to me. I try to bring my own understandings to the table, regardless of how I think yours are. I might think your thoughts are quite good, but that won't stop me from debating an issue for the pure pleasure of it.

It has long since been withdrawn.

Big deal. Lokideviluk of allforums.net doesn't respect me. I think I will go cry now. Get over yourself.

it is nigh time for Vile to close this thread. I really don't see how this can go any farther.

I really don't see how this can go any farther.

Bah! That is what you think!

Perhaps Americans differ on what respectful conversation is but here in the UK

RACIST! oh wait...social prejudice--ist! :D ;)

*rolls up sleeves, gets out mini american flag, and gets ready to fight*

hehe just kidding.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
*shrugs* They know who they are. If they want to back me up, that's fine, if they don't, it doesn't really matter to me.

The why bring it up at all?

Originally posted by Napsterbater

Any of these things, instead of, "you are so full of shit and when I was your age..."

Your a year older than me? A person telling you your full of shit is expressing a view and you dont have to pay attention to it if you dont want to. You push and provoke people on purpose so its no wonder some of them snap at you. You say none of this bothers you and yet clearly it does else you wouldn't express your distaste in such responces.

Originally posted by Napsterbater


That is because you are not a philosopher.



Not by Qualification.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Big deal. Lokideviluk of allforums.net doesn't respect me. I think I will go cry now. Get over yourself.

Get over myself? *laughs* You sound almost irratated... but this is a big ole emotion orgasm for you isnt it... gee what fun little life you lead :D

"you are so full of shit and when I was your age..."

I wasn't referring to you specifically.

but this is a big ole emotion orgasm for you isnt it...

As I've said before, it is mostly a masturbatory experience. I highly doubt you are capable of provoking anything other than a ho-hum response from me.

gee what fun little life you lead

If you only knew...

Trading insults with Evakian was rather fun, he at least knew he was being childish. I really did expect better from you, but we don't always get what we want, now don't we?

OMG true story here.

One day last week, i had about an hour till the girls came home from school, so I thought I'd put my feet up and have a rest. As soon as I did that, the doorbell rang. I go to the front door, and take a peek through the curtain, and I see the trade mark shirt, tie and backpack, two of them, I was in no way going to open the door. What do they do?

They go "We saw you! We just want to talk to you! We're missionaries, here to tell you about god's prophets! Helllooooo!. We saw you..............Hellooo?"

Like the thing that wouldn't die.........Jeez, just like zombies.

Creetwins, If you allready took the time to see who was at the door why not go ahead and answer it? Why do people hide even while at their own home? If it was me I would have told them nicely that I am not interested and that they need to inform their buddy's not to bother me again. If they didn't get the message then I would tell them to stick their religion up their arse while holding the American flag over my head. I have done it both ways in different places and it does work.

Maddog, the only reason I peeked, was in case it might be a neighbour in trouble, or a family member popping in unexpected.

I take my breaks very seriously, as they are few and far between. I was exhausted, and when I am tired, it is better I say nothing, as I have a tendancy to be cranky and rude.

I always peek. In case it is the neighbour across the street coming to bum smokes. Once or twice is okay, but he is kinda creepy, and I really don't want to cater to him all the time.

I am a single woman, with a restaining order on my ex.

I always always peek.

I am a single woman, with a restaining order on my ex.

I always always peek.

Not sure what it was about that, but that was a great line. ;)

Originally posted by creetwins
Maddog, the only reason I peeked, was in case it might be a neighbour in trouble, or a family member popping in unexpected.

OK

I take my breaks very seriously, as they are few and far between. I was exhausted, and when I am tired, it is better I say nothing, as I have a tendancy to be cranky and rude.

This is all the better reason to get rid of them once and for all so they don't mess with your free time again. If you were cranky and rud that may be the best time to get your point accross???

I always peek. In case it is the neighbour across the street coming to bum smokes. Once or twice is okay, but he is kinda creepy, and I really don't want to cater to him all the time.

This would be another person I would let know how I feel, maybe it is just me but I find it odd to have to hide while on my own property. I have been called blunt but I do get respect and almost never get bugged by silly stuff. Of course every now and then there is a newbe that I have to break in :D.

I am a single woman, with a restaining order on my ex.

I always always peek.

This is very understandable but if it was me and I found out the person was not a danger then I would go ahead and answer the door.

The reason I asked was because years ago I would hang at a friends house and they would hide every time the JW came. The 3rd time this happened while I was there I asked if it would be okay if I answered the door and took care of the problem once and forall. They said go ahead and try, so I took a shotgun that they had and removed the bolt{safety}. Then I grabed an empty beer can and answered the door waving the barrel of the gun over the JW heads. They never had another JW come to their door again.

Have a sis in that group I do not like them.

I can't understand why Jehovah's Witnesses get away with knocking on your door and forcing their religion down your throat. I've never been able to understand that. If it was a Sikh, Muslim, Jew etc, they'd be treated completely differently. In fact they'd probably get a kicking.
I scare JWs though. I just answer the door, they start talking to me, and as they pause for breath I calmly say "I'm terribly sorry, I don't want you to waste your time, but my beliefs are strong and you won't convince me." Which inevitably begs the qustion "What are your beliefs?" I'm a pagan/wiccan. The first time I said that to a JW, she asked what exactly it involved, and I replied "another name for it now is witch" (which personally, I hate because it's just used as a scare tactic and has little to do with my personal beliefs) She couldn't get away fast enough.

Not sure what it was about that, but that was a great line.

:D



This is all the better reason to get rid of them once and for all so they don't mess with your free time again. If you were cranky and rud that may be the best time to get your point accross???

Yah, true. And normally, if I had been friskier, those boys would have been in for a good toying, however, pussycat just wasn't in the mood. Yawn.



This would be another person I would let know how I feel, maybe it is just me but I find it odd to have to hide while on my own property. I have been called blunt but I do get respect and almost never get bugged by silly stuff. Of course every now and then there is a newbe that I have to break in

LOL........ya know? He's another person I have not opened the door to once or twice.........I am so very rude sometimes lol.



This is very understandable but if it was me and I found out the person was not a danger then I would go ahead and answer the door.

Sure, I hear ya. But have a look at it this way. I am so damn arrogant and self important and introverted, that I don't have to answer the phone just because it is ringing, and this has kind of shifted to answering the door too. My view is this......this is my house and my door, and who the hell says I have to answer it just because some doorknob knocking it unexpectedly without an apptment. I don't like unexpetedly.

Sure I could open the door and tell them to get lost, or to come back later, or I could engage in an entire dialogue, but when I don't feel like it, I don't owe them any explanation that I don't feel like playing today or wasting a second of my time with them. They get the point without any effort on my part. I am just too focused on something else. I am like this with alot of things. I don't interrupt well. Like good luck trying lol.

I've come to thinking about them lately as missionarius interrupticuses.

Interruptici?

I am so damn arrogant and self important and introverted, that I don't have to answer the phone just because it is ringing, and this has kind of shifted to answering the door too.

Come now, if they go through the effort to come to your doorstep, at least give them a moment of your time, its at least something you can do.

Sure I could open the door and tell them to get lost, or to come back later, or I could engage in an entire dialogue, but when I don't feel like it, I don't owe them any explanation that I don't feel like playing today or wasting a second of my time with them. They get the point without any effort on my part. I am just too focused on something else. I am like this with alot of things. I don't interrupt well.

*tsk *tsk
I understand you don't want to put up with it because it wastes time, but you must understand that christian missionaries, girl scouts, and lawn care service providers going door to door just need a few seconds of your time.

"I'm terribly sorry, I don't want you to waste your time, but my beliefs are strong and you won't convince me."

I prefer the method of a quick, assertive debate. :D

Originally posted by Evakian
Come now, if they go through the effort to come to your doorstep, at least give them a moment of your time, its at least something you can do.

Why?

Originally posted by Evakian
*tsk *tsk
I understand you don't want to put up with it because it wastes time, but you must understand that christian missionaries, girl scouts, and lawn care service providers going door to door just need a few seconds of your time.

That's not my problem. Although girl scouts can interupt me at any time if they come bearing cookies or order forms.

Originally posted by creetwins
Yah, true. And normally, if I had been friskier, those boys would have been in for a good toying, however, pussycat just wasn't in the mood. Yawn.

yahoooooooo :D



Sure, I hear ya. But have a look at it this way. I am so damn arrogant and self important and introverted, that I don't have to answer the phone just because it is ringing, and this has kind of shifted to answering the door too. My view is this......this is my house and my door, and who the hell says I have to answer it just because some doorknob knocking it unexpectedly without an apptment. I don't like unexpetedly.

I never answer the phone{hate it}, my wife gets PO'ed at me because she will have to run from the back of the house while the phone is ringing and I'll be sitting right next to it. The door is a different thing alltogether though, the person is actually on my property.

Sure I could open the door and tell them to get lost, or to come back later, or I could engage in an entire dialogue, but when I don't feel like it, I don't owe them any explanation that I don't feel like playing today or wasting a second of my time with them. They get the point without any effort on my part. I am just too focused on something else. I am like this with alot of things. I don't interrupt well. Like good luck trying lol.

Doesn't it bug the heck out of you while they're yelling through your door? That would tick me off, if they went out of their way to know that I was home and not answering the door, I think this would be a good time for an ole fashion arse whoopin in respect?? :)

LionelHutz, I would rather have the swedish bikini team come to my door selling cookies :)

Friend in college open the door in the nude. They never came back to his door.

Originally posted by Researcher
Friend in college open the door in the nude. They never came back to his door.

Well i finishes off our last conversation by moving to the topic of homosexuality, and implying i was of that nature... I havent seen or heard from him since and bare in mind he came over every single week.

Loki, are you of that nature? If so , I didn't know.... :)

Loki, are you of that nature? If so , I didn't know....

He has an SG account, "reads" maxim, and various other standard antics of young men, so i will venture to say he is not that way from my knowledge. :D

Why?

It is a matter of manners. Rather than have them confused on your doorstep for awhile, maybe they may even come back later since they thought you were gone, etc. It would be polite to answer the door and say "I am sorry, but i am not interested..." and so on. :)

Friend in college open the door in the nude. They never came back to his door.

A friend (of mine) in college opened the door in the nude. The Jehovah's Witnesses' never came back to his door.

Well i finishes off our last conversation by moving to the topic of homosexuality

Well, I finished off our last conversation...

http://www.mahjqa.com/stuff/grammarnazi.gif
...;)

To me, Jehovah's Witnesses seem to be a good reminder of how little people like confrontation. I myself can't stand talking to people about religion of any kind... from Jehovah's Witnesses, to random people asking me if I am saved, to Baptist's trying to get my to pray with them for forgiveness. At any rate, although it may seem a bit disrespectful, is to treat them like telemarketers... No thanks, I'm not interested, good bye... if you don't mind hanging up on someone, don't worry about closing the dorr in their face. Another thing, and what a lot of people I've known have had happen is, don't try to change an opinion. There are actually a lot of sites on helping to refute Jehovah's Witnesses and other religions (go to Yahoo! and type 'Refute Jehovah's Witnesses').
The problem with beliefs, or more specifically arguing about them, is that they somehow have to be justified and people don't like to be wrong, or feel that they shouldn't be thought of badly for it... My answer? I don't want to learn it because I'm a close-minded, godless asshole. Not really true, but if I worried about what other people thought of me in that sense I wouldn't be writing this post either.
The trouble is getting other people to just cope with the fact that, as far as beliefs, some say tomato, and some say tomato. (hmmmmm, that saying works a lot better when it's spoken.)

It was also just a way to help me learn more about their views so i could better speak about it here

I've found, in my own personal experience, that it is very hard to learn about someone's beliefs, especially with religion with them trying to get you to follow. Now, if I go to a Christian and say, I think I want to be a Jehovah's Witness, I won't have any trouble hearing all about how they are wrong. But it's difficult to get an objective view of various religions.