The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti

The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not.
Eric Hoffer

If there were no God, there would be no Atheists.
G. K. Chesterton

I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible for such an absurd world.
Georges Duhamel

I once wanted to become an atheist, but I gave up - they have no holidays.
Henny Youngman

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun

You've got your phenomenon on one hand. Concrete and knowable. On the other hand you've got the incomprehensible. You call it God, but to me, God or no, it remains just that, the unknowable.
Robin Green and Mitchell Burgess

I always admired atheists. I think it takes a lot of faith.
Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider
__________________________________________________ _

It seems rather silly to take the side of atheism, you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him, thats what i like to call a futile effort. What are your thoughts on atheism? Why did you abandon, or never take up for that matter, a faith?
I would just like to hear your thoughts on why.
Care to enlighten me ;)

Agnosticism rulez!!!11!!!1111

a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

----------------------------------------------------------------
ag·nos·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

a:One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b:One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a difference, however slight. Atheists deny God, agnostics are just skeptics about it all and function as the go between for theists and atheists.

ahh... you demean what you've already exhualted.

It seems rather silly to take the side of atheism, you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him, thats what i like to call a futile effort.

By its very definition god is beyond human understanding. You already admitted its impossible to know one way or the other. So why not just admit you are unable to know?

So why not just admit you are unable to know?

So why not just admit you are wrong in telling us He doesn't exist:cat:

Originally posted by Evakian
a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

----------------------------------------------------------------
ag·nos·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

a:One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b:One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a difference, however slight. Atheists deny God, agnostics are just skeptics about it all and function as the go between for theists and atheists.
Once again I play the role of teacher. ::sigh::

There are two disparate types of atheism: Explicit ("strong") atheism and implicit ("weak") atheism. 90% of all atheists take the form of implicit atheists. The definition thereof:

One who professes no belief in a god.

The definition of explicit atheism:

One who professes belief in no god.

See the difference? Implicit atheists, such as myself, take no stance on if there is a god or not. In terms of belief, we have...a vacuum. Explicit atheists, who are relatively hard to find, have a belief that no god exists. A belief I find impossible to prove and thus unscientific, in fact.

Maybe many people are agnostic.
They simply have seen no proof one way or the other of gods existance or non-existance.

Then of course you get into the area of what a person perceives, as his personal proof, of gods existance or non-existance.
What is proof for one may not be proof for another.

Evak, it is hard to answer your question.
One reason is that to ask why one chose not to believe in god one would have to ask, which god? The god of which belief?

Some beliefs are of a god which sets upon a throne and judges man at death. A god that lords over a city with streets of gold.

Another believes in a god that has a harem of virgins awaiting the arrival of certain believers.

Some believe that nature is god.

Some are simply confused by all the choices.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Maybe many people are agnostic.
They simply have seen no proof one way or the other of gods existance or non-existance.

Then of course you get into the area of what a person perceives, as his personal proof, of gods existance or non-existance.
What is proof for one may not be proof for another.

Evak, it is hard to answer your question.
One reason is that to ask why one chose not to believe in god one would have to ask, which god? The god of which belief?

Some beliefs are of a god which sets upon a throne and judges man at death. A god that lords over a city with streets of gold.

Another believes in a god that has a harem of virgins awaiting the arrival of certain believers.

Some believe that nature is god.

Some are simply confused by all the choices.

Heh, i like that response. Well done Dan

Originally posted by Evakian
It seems rather silly to take the side of atheism, you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him, thats what i like to call a futile effort.

If the theists are the ones claiming that God exists, isn't it up to them to provide extraordinary evidence to back up their extraordinary claim?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
If the theists are the ones claiming that God exists, isn't it up to them to provide extraordinary evidence to back up their extraordinary claim?

You seem to forget it is all based off of faith, evidence is not essential. If you do not have faith, well then they don't care, spend your days elsewhere from their shrine.

Originally posted by Evakian
You seem to forget it is all based off of faith, evidence is not essential. If you do not have faith, well then they don't care, spend your days elsewhere from their shrine.

I would say you were the one that forgot that religion is based on faith, as opposed to fact, when you stated:


It seems rather silly to take the side of atheism, you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him, thats what i like to call a futile effort.

If you think you can "prove" the existence of God, please give it your best shot.

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."
-- G. K. Chesterton

Isn't it more likely the case that if there were no false Gods, there would be no atheists?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I would say you were the one that forgot that religion is based on faith, as opposed to fact, when you stated:



If you think you can "prove" the existence of God, please give it your best shot.

This is a case of reading comprehension:

you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him

aka your efforts to disprove Him are as futile as trying to prove Him
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can prove God exists, maybe not to you, but that's not what matters. My personal convictions are important to me and my life, not what you think of me or them.

Originally posted by Evakian
This is a case of reading comprehension:

More like vague writing.


[b]you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him

aka your efforts to disprove Him are as futile as trying to prove Him

If you think these two statements say the same thing you are the one with comprehension problems. The first statement is clearly a comparison of two unequal things, while the second is not.

To make the statements jibe better you need to change "cannot" to "can" in the first statement.


I can prove God exists, maybe not to you, but that's not what matters. My personal convictions are important to me and my life, not what you think of me or them.

"Proof" and having "convictions" are hardly the same thing.

Good, clear posts vile.

Evakian
If you do not have faith, well then they don't care, spend your days elsewhere from their shrine.That's rather ironic considering a non-atheist just started a thread about atheism.

Originally posted by Evakian
This is a case of reading comprehension:

you cannot disprove God as much as theists can prove Him

aka your efforts to disprove Him are as futile as trying to prove Him
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can prove God exists, maybe not to you, but that's not what matters. My personal convictions are important to me and my life, not what you think of me or them. I think you are a bit confused about what proof is, Evakian. As vile has pointed out you seem to miss the distinction between faith and conviction. By your definition Hitler had proof that jews are inferior and Stalin had proof that communist dictatorship is the best way.

Also there is a difference between logical or mathematical proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof) and emperical evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence). The former is absolute and certain, as in 2+2 can be proved to make 4. The latter is hazier and less certain as in the earth can be proved to orbit the sun.

When it comes to "god" the onus is on the proposer to prove it exists. This is because assertions without evidence or proof can be dismissed without evidence or proof. Whether or not a person can disprove a god - logically or through evidence - has no bearing on whether atheism is valid. Despite this, it is a happy coincidence for the atheist that we can disprove many gods.

Let's take a god. I used to live in Kenya where some monotheistic people believe in the one true god Ngai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngai). Ngai is the only god and physically resides at the top of mount kenya. If one goes to the top of mount kenya and Ngai is not there one has proved Ngai does not exist. Of course this is emperical proof - hazy and uncertain. Perhaps Ngai had popped to Everest for a day trip when I went. But many people go up mount Kenya everyday (it's not a particularly challenging peak) and none of them have ever encountered Ngai. Although this is not certain evidence in the mathematical sense I'd put it at well above 99% which does me.

Let's take another god. This time the bible god who is all-just and all-merciful. All-just means matching the punishment to the crime; all-merciful means always totally forgiving without punishment. It is clearly impossible for an entity to be all-just and all-merciful; it is a contradiction. Therefore I have proved the bible god does not exist in a mathematical sense - as clearly as 2+2 do not make 5.

The only way people can claim "you can't prove god doesn't exist" is by not defining god and keeping the concept vague and flexible. That way it's like saying you can't prove "aishfiahdfoiasjdf", or any other meaningless string of letters, doesn't exist.

"Why did you abandon, or never take up for that matter, a faith?"

It is quite simple. I never needed to.

And the posts here trying to get Evakian to 'prove' God, don't get his point. For most reading this forum, Christianity came first. It is what the vast majority of Americans and Europeans grew up with. Christian dogma came first, at least until you decided to wash your brain of all that nonsense. His question is why, and it is a valid question, in my arrogant opinion.

Let me make a stab at answering that for the average atheist, if that could ever be such a beast.

Christianity is silly.

There. A properly silly answer to to a perfectly silly question. Evakian, there is plenty of phliosophy out there that will tell you exactly why people move away from their faiths. Go read that instead of asking everybody here to rehash it for you. That is, if you are asking the question out of ignorance, which is the only reason you should really be asking that. If you are not, then you are just patronizing a steadily growing segment of American society, and you should expect the responses you are getting.

And the posts here trying to get Evakian to 'prove' God, don't get his point.

No, it can't be...*drops dead thinking to himself: "no way, someone actually understood"*

Go read that instead of asking everybody here to rehash it for you.

I was interested in the allforums members, how else was i to gather such information aside from the website?

Christianity is silly.

Hardly meat for debate, and not much of an answer. "Atheism is silly" would be useless in a discussion like this.

His question is why, and it is a valid question, in my arrogant opinion.

Well at least we have one person who is accepting of themselves.

That is, if you are asking the question out of ignorance, which is the only reason you should really be asking that.

Curiosity*

If you are not, then you are just patronizing a steadily growing segment of American society

Actually, Americans are in search of faith more and more. Its growing, not shrinking. I read an interesting Newsweek article on it, i'll bring it up if i can find it again.


In any case, good post Napsterbater, although i would like more meat on it, it is lacking.

It is clearly impossible for an entity to be all-just and all-merciful;

If that entity is human, yes. But we are not talking about man ;)

"I was interested in the allforums members, how else was i to gather such information aside from the website? "

"Hardly meat for debate, and not much of an answer. "Atheism is silly" would be useless in a discussion like this. "

"Curiosity*"

"although i would like more meat on it, it is lacking."

Which is it, Evakian? Are you picking a debate, or are you truly curious? You can't be both, unless you are claiming to be above logic.

And the fact that the faithful is growing does not mean the faithless not is also growing. Most of the new faithful, are in fact the old faithful, who found 'new' faith. Church rolls may be growing, but it is mostly the segment of the populace who are Christian in name only. Lots of them are switching to atheism too.

Which is it, Evakian? Are you picking a debate, or are you truly curious? You can't be both, unless you are claiming to be above logic.

Debate- To consider something; deliberate.
Curiosity- A desire to know or learn.

An orderly discussion provides for both the consideration of different viewpoints while sometimes quenching certain needs.

And the fact that the faithful is growing does not mean the faithless not is also growing.

That would point to more to population growth, christians raising christians, agnostics raising agnostics, etc. I was referring more to conversion, and in that scenario, more people turn to faith, the majority being in Christianity. And Mastur, although there is much truth in your statement about people being christian in name only, but i do not believe it is your place to judge them, especially when you are not one among them.

You are not providing for an orderly discussion, you are providing a platform on which you are trying to convert others. You are not being honest with yourself and it shows.

"although there is much truth in your statement about people being christian in name only, but i do not believe it is your place to judge them, especially when you are not one among them."

You negate the first with the second. That you would say that there is much truth to the idea is blatent hypocrisy, when you also say that that you don't believe it is right to judge. Or do you believe it is solely your right to judge, as a member of the Christian elite? You cannot place your Christian values on people who aren't Christian, and expect them to take you seriously. I claim the right to judge whomever I damn well please, for whatever reason I wish, particularly by pointing out hypocrites.

That I am a hypocrite myself will not stop me, nor has it stopped anybody else in the entire history of the idea.

Being new here, I claim my God-given right to feed the trolls. Anybody else with bread is more than welcome to help me.

You are not providing for an orderly discussion

i am neither a moderator nor an admministrator, it is beyond my capabilities and its not my job ;)

you are providing a platform on which you are trying to convert others

Danger! Danger Will Robinson! Baseless accusations and mistruth meters in my mainframe are overloading!

You are not being honest with yourself and it shows.

sure buddy, whatever lies help you sleep at night.

That you would say that there is much truth to the idea is blatent hypocrisy, when you also say that that you don't believe it is right to judge.

:rolleyes:

Or do you believe it is solely your right to judge, as a member of the Christian elite?

I do believe i could make the decision much more accurately then someone who works against the church. Who are you to say they are christian in name only? It would technically take a christian or a group of them to discover that about others and be accurate, trustworthy, and truthful.

I claim the right to judge whomever I damn well please, for whatever reason I wish, particularly by pointing out hypocrites.

Yes your almightiness :@@:

It's amazing how quickly the decision to feed the troll blew up in my face. So much for that.

Still, I have some comfort in having completely exposed you, thus killing the thread.

I'm debating (with myself) on whether to actually attempt to answer any of that.

Still debating...



Still...

Nah, I'll let it go and let the rest of the forum dwellers make what they will of the thread.

Still, I have some comfort in having completely exposed you, thus killing the thread.

????????...actually, no....you missed it by a light year...

You are a self-absorbed, lying twit...there i exposed you with about as much logic and sense as you threw into talking about me.

I'm debating (with myself) on whether to actually attempt to answer any of that.

Still debating...



Still...


You brain can't function very fast, can it? :D

Nah, I'll let it go and let the rest of the forum dwellers make what they will of the thread.

Yes, because 'Christianity is silly' is such a well thought out statement that explains everything without questions needing to be asked. :hahanot:

/me chuckles, and keeps handing Evakian more rope.

*chuckles at Mastur- i mean Napsterbater's piss poor attempts to insult and inability to formulate a proper answer* :D

Silence worm! :D

Done yet? Why don't you keep going? Mr. High and Mighty Christian, lowered to trading insults with a common troll! It just tickles me. No fancy smilies needed for me, just a grand appreciation for timing and hypocrisy. Go ahead, make fun of me for calling myself a troll, go ahead!

I changed my mind. Feeding the troll is eminantly amusing.

Done yet?

I shall finish when you do.

Why don't you keep going?

I will as long as you keep sauntering along

Mr. High and Mighty Christian

Yes! thats exactly how i think of myself :rolleyes: i cannot believe we have people in this world like you, how can you even function in society? are you typing this from your institution??

lowered to trading insults with a common troll!

*Knowing no meaning of troll that could apply in this statement, Evak moves on, dazed and confused*

It just tickles me.

Hoorah for laughter! although, i must share that i have gained much of my life back from you as a result of yucking it up. Thanks.

No fancy smilies needed for me, just a grand appreciation for timing and hypocrisy.

Ahh so you appreciate your hypocrisy, egoists embracing weak traits, fascinating.

Go ahead, make fun of me for calling myself a troll, go ahead!
*Once again, frazzled by the use of that term*

I changed my mind. Feeding the troll is eminantly amusing.

Its going both ways, the feeling is mutual.

Alas, i must leave my computer for the night and retire. G'night my fine fellow, you are growing on me.

Ohh, you ignored troll and went for hypocrisy, how bloody transparent.

See that folks? Evakian just got totally owned, as anyone who has ever spent time on IRC could tell you. He started the thread by asking a dumb question. The usual suspect atheists saw the game immediately and started ripping on him. Apparently this pattern has some history, as he seems to be always asking seemingly benign questions designed to get atheists to admit somehow that they have faith, a common theist tactic.

Well, I decided to go for the gusto! And it would appear to have paid off in spades. I of course, didn't actually get him to admit what he was doing, that is too much for the insincere theist mind, but, anyone following the thread can easily see now, if they haven't already done so before, and completely ignore Evakians threads in the future, at least until he wises up.

Predictably, he will more than likely come back in the morning with more flames, that is, if his whole glorious, "I'm signing off the internet now," spiel wasn't a ruse designed to make me overextend myself with insults supposedly said behind his back. "I didn't really go yet, psych!" which at this point I wouldn't put past him.

As I'm looking over the thread, I am wondering, did I actually insult him, other than by calling him a troll? I don't think anything I wrote qualifies. I described his behavior, not his self. I guess that is in the eyes of the beholder. I would like you guys, the audience, to let me know. Or am I completely off base, perhaps Evakian really did win this? If that's the case, then I really need to give this whole writing game up and take up knitting. Though I'm sure some of you will think that anyway! :)

See that folks?

See what? a fabricated story to make it seem like something is going on?

Ohh, you ignored troll and went for hypocrisy, how bloody transparent.

What in the name of donuts is a bloody troll?

He started the thread by asking a dumb question.

No, i was just curious to get into the minds of those who turned away from religion

The usual suspect atheists saw the game immediately and started ripping on him.

...nope, i don't see that at all

as he seems to be always asking seemingly benign questions designed to get atheists to admit somehow that they have faith, a common theist tactic.

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA, this blew me away...so far out of reality, guess what: its wrong.

I of course, didn't actually get him to admit what he was doing, that is too much for the insincere theist mind

Yes you did, i admitted i was curious about learning about why some have turned away from religion and now actively crusade against it across these boards.

if they haven't already done so before, and completely ignore Evakians threads in the future, at least until he wises up.

Ignoring someone's viewpoints off the bat is a tactic for narrowminds to keep to their narrow thinking patterns. Never dismiss other's viewpoints until you have heard them out fully.

Predictably, he will more than likely come back in the morning with more flames, that is, if his whole glorious, "I'm signing off the internet now," spiel wasn't a ruse designed to make me overextend myself with insults supposedly said behind his back. "I didn't really go yet, psych!" which at this point I wouldn't put past him.

Yea, i decided to stay up and watch Sin City, so i'm still here.

perhaps Evakian really did win this?

There is nothing to 'win', you caught me on a very bad day where i am in a very ornery, upset mood, and when you said "Christianity is silly" and that was the single solitary reason you had to say about religion and why you were an atheist, it burned my cannolis.

If that's the case, then I really need to give this whole writing game up and take up knitting.

No, you just got here. You have been doing fine so far, but i suggest in certain threads its best not to bait others (such as me on this thread, so that i continually spit out insults and make myself look like an @$$, its not like me, and i'm having quite a bad day) with semi-taunts. Perhaps providing a wee bit of commentary or a clever interjection can be done, you don't always have to write along page of an answer to the thread's question, and if you do attempt that try and answer the question fully, and wait until questions or challenges to the claims come up to begin again.

Though I'm sure some of you will think that anyway!

Nonsense, and besides, knitting is bad for anyone to take up *Shivers* the horror...the horror!!!

Ok guys, fun time is over. Thread closed.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Ok guys, fun time is over.
Man, where was I for fun time? :(