You said (Jane fonda) attacked our government, not the people of the United States........ during time of war you may not go to the enemy's country and attack our government. That is treason.

Frogger;

a) this country was not at war. Vietnam was never declared a war.

b) if she DID 'attack' the US Government, she did so verbally Frogger...........not with force of arms. She was not guilty of committing treason, by any stretch of the imagination.

Those are the facts.

As far as opinion goes, I for one consider her a great American and a hero, and someone whose concern and compassion for other people around the world should be emulated and aspired to by every American citizen.

The world would be a far, far better place if more people would act with the progressive spirit and humanity that Jane Fonda has shown. I would like to see her run for public office.

Freethinker,

Giving aid and comfort to the enemy does not consist only of bearing arms against our country in the service of an enemy. It can also consist of generating propaganda for the enemy. Jane Fonda did the same thing Tokyo Rose, Lord HaHa and Axis Annie did. You may view her as a hero but truth be told, I view you as almost totally anti-American so your views don't carry much weight with me.

Overdose: Hey guys, I read this book, and this is what I think, gab, gab, gab...
Other posters: How dare you! You're too young - inexperienced to make that call!
Overdose: How 'bout we debate the issue at hand, please?
Other posters: No way! You're too young to know anything! Please stick with stuff you should know about!
Vile: Umm, you guys are acting stupid...
ES: No way, Vile, he brought it upon himself by being young and inexperienced!
On the surface, I can understand your complaint, especially if this is your only exposure to him glorifying the likes Jane Fonda, Madonna, or Liberace for that matter, but trust me, Frogger's assessment of OD wasn't wrong, and this ISN'T the first time (prior to him gleaning vast amounts of knowledge from her book) where he's praised Hanoi Jane with ZERO REGARD for what other people think. If he does let you get a word in edgewise, well, then you can pretty much bank on the fact that he's not far from reverting to his tried-and-true "prove it" MO. IOW, it's a fairly fruitless endeavor and the "Other Posters" here all know it.

I would like to see her (Jane Fonda) run for public office.
I'd like to see her run, too....

That way :: points north :: - before I take her fucking scalp off with a rusty spoon.

She can't run far enough away to suit me. hanoi jane should have stayed in Hanoi where she was apparently so comfortable.

Jane Fonda did the same thing Tokyo Rose (did).....

Congratulations, Frogger.

You just provided the perfect example.

Tokyo Rose, although she was thoroughly reviled, and though the gullible citizenry in the U.S. --thanks to the propaganda effors of Walter Winchell-- were whipped into an incendiary hatred (iow, virtually the same way it has played out for Jane Fonda) for her, a hatred that in some circles persists to the present day, she was found to have not committed treason, and to have not harmed this country or its war effort. Her imprisonment was eventually exposed for the sham and fraud that it was. Winchell himself desreved to have been imprisoned for inciting the ignorant citizenry to rise up against her and cause her to be tried and imprisoned on false charges.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5389722.stm

Yet ignorant people still cling to the myth of **Tokyo Rose the traitor**, just like you and people like you will continue clinging to the myth that what Fonda did had some extremely negative effect on America and its military presence in vietnam.

The well known story below --that has been WIDELY circulated for decades-- is a HUGE part of the reason for the level of vitriol and hatred that people in the U.S. have directed toward Jane Fonda.

The strange thing is, it is completely and utterly FALSE. It is a fabrication. It never happened. It is a damnable LIE. The very servicemen who are named in the story have themselves come out and repeatedly stated, for the record, that the story is completely false.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"In 1978, the Commandant of the USAF Survival School, a colonel, was a former POW in Ho Lo Prison -- the Hanoi Hilton. Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American 'Peace Activist' the 'lenient and humane treatment' he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the man's shoe off -- which sent that officer berserk.

"In '78, the AF colonel still suffered from double vision -- permanently grounding him -- from the Vietnamese officer's frenzied application of a wooden baton.

"From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was 347FW/DO (F-4Es). He'd spent 6 [product] years in the Hilton -- the first three of which he was listed as MIA. His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a 'peace delegation' visit.

"They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his Social Security number on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like, 'Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?' and, 'Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?'"

"Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the little pile of notes.

"Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four.

"For years after their release, a group of determined former POWs, including Col. Carrigan, tried to bring Ms. Fonda and others up on charges of treason. I don't know that they used it, but the charge of 'Negligent Homicide due to Depraved Indifference' would also seem appropriate. Her obvious 'granting of aid and comfort to the enemy' alone should've been sufficient for the treason count. However, to date, Jane Fonda has never been formally charged with anything and continues to enjoy the privileged life of the rich and famous.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With damnable lies like these circulating against a person, is it any wonder that gullible and ignorant people are incited to hatred for Fonda......yet it is over something that has been 100% verified to have NOT happened.

<<<<<<<continued>>>>>>>>>>

In regards to the above tale -----

Mike McGrath, President of NAM-POWs, has also stepped forward to disclaim
the story: "Please excuse the generic response, but I have been swamped with so many e-mails on the subject of the Jane Fonda article (Carrigan, Driscoll, strips of paper, torture and deaths of POWs, etc.) that I have to resort to this pre-scripted rebuttal. The truth is that most of this never happened. This is a hoax story placed on the internet by unknown Fonda haters. No one knows who initiated the story.

Despite the claims of hundreds of Vietnam veterans who maintain they were
"there" and can affirm these tales as true, Jane Fonda actually met with
only a handful of American POWs in North Vietnam, and even they have spoken out on the record to disclaim the story:

"The whole story about Jane Fonda is just malarkey," said Edison
Miller, 73, of California, a former Marine Corps pilot held more than five
years. Miller was among seven POWs who met with Fonda in Hanoi. He said he didn't recall her asking any questions other than about their names, if
that. He said that he passed her no piece of paper, and that to his
knowledge, no other POW in the group did, despite the e-mail's claims.
In fact, Fonda carried home letters from many American POWs to their
families upon her return from North Vietnam.

You were the first to use an insulting term. You used the word 'jerk' when referring to Dan F.
That is because he was being sarcastic in nature.

You said she didn't call ALL the POWs liars. This means she called some of the POWs liars.
Some of them were liars. Why is that hard for you to believe? Are POWs not allowed to be questioned?

You said she attacked our government, not the people of the United States. OD, during time of war you may not go to the enemy's country and attack our government. That is treason.
Countless doctors went to North Vietnam during this war to report was was occurring on the ground. What makes Jane Fonda different? Also, many people are in Iraq right now, who have expressed discontent towards our current government. We are allowed to speak out against our government. Period.

You said she didn't attack ALL the POWs which means you believe she attacked some of the POWs.
The POWs who dropped bombs on innocent civilians were wrong. And the excuse, “they were following orders” isn’t valid. They knew what they were doing and should have not followed orders.

When the Nazis after World War II said, “I was just following orders” they didn’t get off being convicted of being war criminals. Because that isn't a VALID excuse.

Referring to Darth you said, "You're just such a sick man."
After he ADVOCTED the death of Jane Fonda. I think that is a fair assessment.

Responding to Evakian you said, "...that I would expect of someone of your nature."
Yes. I said this after I found out what his “nature” was.

Speaking to Sparky, "You are a delusional man."
He said he knew Jane Fonda. Come on!

Talking about me, "He is stubborn and ignorant."
AFTER you made a huge paragraph pointing out all of my supposed character flaws. Notice all of my attacks were after someone had done and or said something rude and or mean-spirited. However, most of the attacks on my character are based off of assumption and mis-conceptions. Usually, they are pulled from thin air and are totally unrelated to the situation at hand. ALSO, I never denied personally attacking other members. I just pointed out that YOU ALL DO IT TOO. And for you to ATTACK ME and not realize your hypocrisy is AMAZING to me.

In addition it was you who constantly brought up the issue of your sexual preferences. No one but you mentioned it and you mentioned it repeatedly.
I was referring to previous debates.

In short, you have not debated honestly but have simply stated your opinion and refused to listen to anything that showed it incorrect.
I don’t think there has been a time we have had a debate where YOU have admitted you were wrong. Double standard?

PS: Those photos of Jane Fonda prove NOTHING but a mistake she made by sitting down in the wrong spot.

AND I would like you to prove Jane Fonda and Madonna are "shunned by society" and that they are the "under-dogs" and PLEASE take into consideration their recent successes.

-------------

ES, I DO know what that word means and it completely describes what you are doing.

The POWs who dropped bombs on innocent civilians were wrong. And the excuse, “they were following orders” isn’t valid. They knew what they were doing and should have not followed orders.
This is clearly coming from someone who's never been in the military. That's called a court-martial, OD. Look into it.

Of course, if you're using Hollywood to bolster the reason said soldiers should've been derelict of their duties (for "moral" reasons, of course), then okay, but I'll have you know that the Vietnam War wasn't a fucking Jerry Bruckheimer flick. You'd lose you commission for that. In a heartbeat.

This is clearly coming from someone who's never been in the military. That's called a court-martial, OD. Look into it.

Of course, if you're using Hollywood to bolster the reason said soldiers should've been derelict of their duties (for "moral" reasons, of course), then okay, but I'll have you know that the Vietnam War wasn't a fucking Jerry Bruckheimer flick. You'd lose you commission for that. In a heartbeat.
A lot of what Nixon was having our pilots do would and should have been considered war crimes. Most of these bombing raids were kept from the public and or denied by the Administration. If a pilot had refused to bomb innocent civilians I would ADMIRE his bravery to do what is morally correct even if he faced consequences at the time. He should have KNOWN the truth would come out eventually and that he would have been proven correct in what he had done.

That way :: points north :: - before I take her fucking scalp off with a rusty spoon.
Why do you hate her so much?

This is clearly coming from someone who's never been in the military.

Not really, Prae. You are duty bound when you enter the military not to follow orders you know are suspect, and raise objections as far up the chain of command as necessary. The military does not want unthinking killers, they tend to get the military in trouble.

Why do you hate her so much?
It's just my opinion, but what she did was treacherous, destabilizing, and hurtful - to our boys in uniform (you know, the ones DYING for what our country thought was right), their parents, brothers and sisters, and extended family members. She powwowed with the VC, OD - and was largely responsible for the reason our troops were treated so poorly (read; spat upon and belittled) when they returned home. There is no forgiving that. If I had my way, the bitch would've swung from the gallows for sedition. If she wanted to exercise her right to free speech, then she should've done it IN AMERICA where she had that right - not in North Vietnam. All bets are off when you're on FOREIGN ground. She should thank her lucky stars that she lived in a country that didn't promptly dispose of her, for if "home" were China, Russia, OR VIETNAM for that matter - she would've been shot and buried that same day.

FUCK JANE FONDA.

It's just my opinion, but what she did was treacherous, destabilizing, and hurtful - to our boys in uniform (you know, the ones DYING for what our country thought was right), their parents, brothers and sisters, and extended family members.
You can list as many adjectives as you want, but without evidence you have nothing. Anyway, many Vietnam veterans expressed support for Jane Fonda after her visit. She actually protested with many after her visit. Her actions only offended Americans who don't know the truth about what happened in Vietnam.

She powwowed with the VC, OD - and was largely responsible for the reason our troops were treated so poorly (read; spat upon and belittled) when they returned home.
Jane Fonda "powwowed" with the innocent civilians of North Vietnam. She went to expose the lies of the Nixon Administration. To think she went to give aid to their government is incorrect. She went as a humanitarian effort to help the innocent civilians who were put in harms way due to our war-crimes. Also, many troops who did commit war crimes deserved the hate they received. They ruined our image as a country and betrayed the values of our nation. But I’m waiting for specific proof that Jane Fonda’s actions made people treat our troops poorly.

If she wanted to exercise her right to free speech, then she should've done it IN AMERICA where she had that right - not in North Vietnam.
It makes no difference where she expresses her freedom of speech. It is a natural born right. And I believe she was doing the highest form of patriotism by putting her life on the line to expose our wrong-doings and to work towards change and progress in our country.

FUCK JANE FONDA.
I still don't see clear examples and substance for why you hate her. Not only have you thrown out words with no evidence, you've done so without taking anything FT or myself have said.

I've never heard one Vietnam veteran utter one word of support for anything hanoi jane ever did. Most that I know will not even tolerate hearing that bitch's name spoken aloud. Take those statements from one who was there long before most of you reading this were ever born. Doesn't matter what she did before or since, her time in admiration of the enemy is sufficient to brand her as a traitor for a great many of us Vietnam veterans. The vast majority of you reading this only know Vietnam as a spot on a map - if you can even find it - or as something somebody told you was a wrong turn in America's history - and they probably never set foot there either.

I've never heard one Vietnam veteran utter one word of support for anything hanoi jane ever did. Most that I know will not even tolerate hearing that bitch's name spoken aloud. Take those statements from one who was there long before most of you reading this were ever born. Doesn't matter what she did before or since, her time in admiration of the enemy is sufficient to brand her as a traitor for a great many of us Vietnam veterans. The vast majority of you reading this only know Vietnam as a spot on a map - if you can even find it - or as something somebody told you was a wrong turn in America's history - and they probably never set foot there either.
I love how because you are a Vietnam Veteran you believe you don’t have to explain yourself. You throw out baseless accusations and expect us to take them at face value because of your service. Well, you know what, I don’t buy it.

But to prove your point wrong Jane Fonda met with the Waterbury Vietnam veterans. Many of them had shirts that said, “Hanoi Jane” and “Traitor” however she went there to explain herself. One of the men, Rich Roland forgave her. He said to her recently, “I intended to throw the card in your face if I wasn’t happy with what happened in the meeting” (clearly, he was happy with the way it turned out since he didn't throw the card) and then said after the meeting it was the start of his "healing". He also went on to raise money for the children in Vietnam who faced birth defects WITH Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda also did this with the Connecticut Vietnam Veterans.

ABC reported a quote by Bob Genovese (a Vietnam vet) as saying, “There was a lot of things that she talked about that I personally didn’t know before, and I don’t think a lot of the men in the room knew before, and it helped explain some of the reasons why she did some of the things she did back in 1972.” Clearly, he does not hate Jane Fonda or think she is a traitor. He may disagree with a few things, but even Jane has admitted not everything she did was correct. But overall Bob Genovese does not hate her.

Yes, she did some things wrong in Vietnam. However, she has apologized for the few wrong things she did. Overall, though, what she did was to be admired. She exposed the lies of the Nixon administration and helped end an un-justified war.

I'm torn, and I'll be the first to admit it.

On one hand, there are my feelings of anger and betrayal at Jane for her unbelievably immature and poorly-thought out shenanigans with the North Vietnamese propagandists.
And the Hollywood press, before and after her ill-advised trip to Vietnam.

(And of course there's the indelible image stamped into my brain of her laughing on that anti-aircraft gun.)

On the other hand there are the indelible images, also seared into my brain, of Jane Fonda laying back on my hotel room bed in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Soaked in my sweat, chest heaving, small, perfect breasts glistening in the candle light, and completely spent from a night spent in disturbed passion and utterly degrading physical gratification. And her begging for more, one hand on the hash pipe, and the other reaching for, of all things, a common household cake mixer.

Such good times.

So why do I feel like a traitor to my fellow Army Veterans for having to admit this?
Jane Fonda and I shared a love, an admittedly psychotic and drug-induced, violent version of love, but a love nonetheless.

So why the conflict you ask?
Is there too much love in this world?

Isn’t there room for both; a mature, critical debate on the relationship between the war-fighters and the political dissenters, and the kind of love where an Army helicopter pilot can break a no-talent Hollywood star down like a cheap shotgun, ride her like a circus pony, and then give her a high-colonic with a six pack of Genesee Cream Ale??

Such a troubling situation.
Maybe I have lost all objectivity and should just stay out of it.
:(

Bwahahahahaha! That was great, Sparky! :D

-_-_-_-_-


Do not presume to speak for the veterans of this country.

I speak from personal experience. You, clearly, do not.

Do not presume to speak for the veterans of this country.

I speak from personal experience. You, clearly, do not.
1. I didn't speak for the veterans of this country. I was telling you that many veterans forgave Jane Fonda and worked with Jane Fonda after the war.

2. Those Veterans I quoted speak from personal experience.

Sadly, you refuse to actually debate the points. You just assume you can get away with incorrect claims because of your service that you believe shields you from any questioning.

Not one person I know has ever forgiven her. As I said above, most won't even tolerate her name being used in their presence. There is nothing to debate. In the eyes of a great many she is and will always remain a tratior to this nation.

Not one person I know has ever forgiven her.
That's great. But there are people who served in Vietnam who do forgive her. I quoted it. And I remember Dop saying he didn't like her, but that after looking into Jane Fonda he does not hate her as much as he use to (and he is a veteran himself). I'm just pointing out that not every veteran hates her and that MANY people do like Jane Fonda.

Back off, Overdose.
I am asking you with all due deference to your station and delicate emotional / psychological state to please STAND DOWN on this topic.

You have walked into the VFW and pissed all over the American FLAG, as far as these honorable Vietnam Vets are concerned.

By reading one book and then presuming to post complimentary (and strangely defensive) things about Jane Fonda, you have revealed yourself to be not only precocious, but ignorant and insensitive as well.

Please leave your fascination with female pop icons at the door from now on, if you intend to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain.

(And please take caution when you ally yourself with Freethinker. He gives not two rats asses about your feelings of infatuation and adoration regarding Jane Fonda. He just wishes to jump onto the coat-tails of this thread. And I imagine that he begrudgingly admires that she beat him to the anti-war, anti-American, anti-Pentagon, anti-soldier punch, years before Al Gore invented the internet.)

Just for this once. Will you please back off?

You have walked into the VFW and pissed all over the American FLAG, as far as these honorable Vietnam Vets are concerned.
That is because these Vietnam Veterans are misguided on the facts surrounding Jane Fonda. Dop (a poster who was more prevalent around allforums before you came here) actually said my posts regarding Jane Fonda were EXCELLENT. He, himself, is a Vietnam Veteran. (He said this in a previous Jane Fonda thread)

Also, how have I pissed on the American flag? Can you be specific?

By reading one book and then presuming to post complimentary (and strangely defensive) things about Jane Fonda, you have revealed yourself to be not only precocious, but ignorant and insensitive as well.
1. I don't think I know everything about Jane Fonda.
2. How have I been ignorant? Can you prove it?
3. No one has tried to disprove my claims with evidence, links and or quotes. They just claim I’m too young and or ignorant in order to avoid the real debate at hand.

Please leave your fascination with female pop icons at the door from now on, if you intend to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain.
I don't care if you take me seriously. Also, you haven't debated the real issues this entire thread. You have given adjectives to describe Jane Fonda, yet you have given zero specific examples and or quotes to support your claims. I, on the other hand, have given specific quotes and examples.

(And please take caution when you ally yourself with Freethinker. He gives not two rats asses about your feelings of infatuation and adoration regarding Jane Fonda. He just wishes to jump onto the coat-tails of this thread. And I imagine that he begrudgingly admires that she beat him to the anti-war, anti-American, anti-Pentagon, anti-soldier punch, years before Al Gore invented the internet.)
Again, you are throwing out adjectives to describe Jane Fonda. Yet you have offered zero evidence to support your claims.

Just for this once. Will you please back off?
How about you back off, just this once? For awhile now you have been on my case in every single thread.

You don't get it Overdose.

I am asking you to just back off.
For just this once.

Concede for just once that you have taken on a topic and a battle that is not worth 'debating'. Years later after Jane and all the Vietnam Vets are dead and gone you can debate until the cows come home.

But for now, the wounds run far too deep, and the animosity is just too real.

Jane lived it, the Vietnam Vets lived it, and you did not.
Concede that at least, will you?

The more you pursue this, the more you reveal that you are but a young child running through the graveyards at Appomattox, kicking over headstones, and shouting, "You fucking Civil War losers all died for nothing!!"

Just this once. Back off, will you?

You don't get it Overdose.
Sadly, you don’t get it.

I am asking you to just back off.
For just this once.
You have again avoided the challenges I presented to your statements. Typical. Anyway. You have asked and I have declined. So now is your time to stop posting if you aren’t going to stay on topic because I won’t stop.

Concede for just once that you have taken on a topic and a battle that is not worth 'debating'.
Just because you believe it isn’t worth debating does not mean I have to agree. And if you don’t think it is worth debating why did you try and debate it?

Years later after Jane and all the Vietnam Vets are dead and gone you can debate until the cows come home.
I won’t be silenced just because you want me to be.

But for now, the wounds run far too deep, and the animosity is just too real.
THE WOUNDS ARE BASED ON FALSE FACTS THAT ARE NOT TRUE! Many veterans, as I've shown, have forgiven Jane Fonda. Why ES can't is BEYOND me.

Jane lived it, the Vietnam Vets lived it, and you did not.
Concede that at least, will you?
You don’t have to live something to debate it. You don’t have to live something to know the facts surrounding it and you don’t have to live through something to form an opinion on it.

The more you pursue this, the more you reveal that you are but a young child running through the graveyards at Appomattox, kicking over headstones, and shouting, "You fucking Civil War losers all died for nothing!!"
That would be your opinion. Thanks for sharing it but it won’t deter me from posting my opinion on Jane Fonda.

Just this once. Back off, will you?
You refuse to answer questions to your accusations and run from the incorrect statements you have made. Stop posting generalizations and either DEBATE THE ISSUE OF JANE FONDA OR DON’T POST AT ALL.

While I was a bit young myself during the Vietnam war, I had several cousins and some older brothers of friends that served then. One must also understand the sentiment relating to the soldiers returning home from this "conflict", many were called "baby-killers", "murderers", etc by some of the activists and anti-war protesters. I can understand why many Vietnam veterans (most who were under 21 and were drafted to serve there) would have a dark place in their hearts for the leaders of the anti-war movement. Ms. Fonda was also NOT that young and impressionable when she visited North Vietnam... I think she was in her early 30's and would have known exactly what she was doing (in most people's opinion).

Below is a link that describes most Vietnam vets opinion of "Hanoi Jane"

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

I hate to tell you Vile, many of the adult members of this forum just can't get over the age thing...
you'll understand it when you're older:lolhit:

You refuse to answer questions to your accusations and run from the incorrect statements you have made. Stop posting generalizations and either DEBATE THE ISSUE OF JANE FONDA OR DON’T POST AT ALL.
Help! Help! I'm being repressed. Do you see him repressing me??

Below is a link that describes most Vietnam vets opinion of "Hanoi Jane"

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

On that page it quotes Fonda as having said, on the radio;

""It was on the road back from Nam Dinh, where I had witnessed the systematic destruction of civilian targets- schools, hospitals, pagodas, the factories, houses, and the dike system.""

THAT was the sort of thing that caused Fonda and many others of conscience to oppose the war against Vietnam. That and the fact that bombing Vietnam and killing so many people was doing virtually NOTHING that was of benefit to the United States and its people. Like nearly every foreign misadventure that this country has gotten entangled in, it was fomented by the politicans and the rich and powerful, to further enrich themselves and their friends in the military/Industrial complex and not out of any threat to the homeland.

I had many friends who served in Vietnam. To a man, they made no secret whatsoever of the fact that *yes*, the military did indeed systematically destroy civilian targets in that country such as schools, hospitals, houses, and the dike system.

Fonda may have been so angered by this that she turned her anger toward the troops. I did not. I talked to these guys, my friends, who had been there....and it was absolutely clear from what they said that they were not carrying out the wanton destruction because they wanted to "kill babies", but were doing it because they were soldiers and were ordered to do it and expected to do it. To have refused would have meant likely court martial. No one should blame the tropps. But everyone should blame the polical leadership that put those troops in that position.

THAT is where I think Fonda is firmly on the side of humanity and justice, and the people (which would include the majority of people in this country at that time) who were (and still are) adamantly supporting the warmongering Washington politicians who led us into that bloody, expensive and unnecessary conflict were absolutely WRONG.

It is clear that Fonda was appalled by and ashamed of a government---OUR government-- that would carry out the purposeful destruction of a school or a hospital or water supplies. In fact, those actions are barrred by the Geneva Convention. I cannot see how anyone who calls themself an American and a ethical person could in good conscience defend the actions --systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure-- that Fonda was moved to protest and oppose.

Overdose is simply showing his lack of knowledge when it comes to the military. Blowing up dikes is NOT a war crime. It is an act that is done all the time in order to deny the enemy certain logistical advantages. Bridges, dikes, etc. were blown up in the World War and no one considered it a war crime. Overdose uses emotion rather than logic when he argues.

I could go back and pick his post responding to me apart piece by piece but it really wouldn't be worth the effort. He would just go on with his denial of anything that doesn't fit into his little world.

He excuses Jane Fonda calling POWs liars because according to Overdose some of them were liars. I guess he knows they were lying about their captivity. The Hanoi Hilton really was just like the other Hiltons and not at all a terrible place to be. The POWs were just lying.

Jane Fonda didn't know she was on an anti-aircraft gun. She thought she was simply sitting somewhere else and singing a song. Of course that doesn't explain why she was looking through the sights. Maybe she thought it was a kaleidescope or something.

Overdose then goes on to wonder why I don't change my viewpoint during discussions. Well, I have changed my viewpoint in the past. I just never change it when I am discussing things with him because he is always so damned wrong.

Jane Fonda went to Hanoi during a time we were fighting the North Vietnamese. She knowingly sat on an anti-aircraft gun and posed. She called American POWs liars and said they weren't mistreated. Overdose can try to deny these facts all he wants but they are true and because they are true Jane Fonda is worthy only of scorn.

It's not the age thing we can't get over. It's having people tell us we don't know what we are talking about because we aren't young. We don't know about sex but they do because we are old and they are young. We don't know about Jane Fonda but they do because we are old and they are young.

Give me a break. Each of us older people has been the same age as the younger people but not a single one of them has been our age. Many of us have raised children older than they are. They don't have any magic insight into the problems of the world that is denied us.

When the young people become a bit less obnoxious the older people will become a bit less overbearing.

Sadly, you refuse to actually debate the points. You just assume you can get away with incorrect claims because of your service that you believe shields you from any questioning.

Overdose, we've debated the points till we're blue in the face. Sadly, you refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions. You do it all the time. That is one of the reasons trying to have a discussion with you is so frustrating.

It's having people tell us we don't know what we are talking about because we aren't young.

The utter hypocrisy of this statement is so funny it hurts.

Blowing up dikes is NOT a war crime. It is an act that is done all the time in order to deny the enemy certain logistical advantages. Bridges, dikes, etc. were blown up in the World War and no one considered it a war crime. Overdose uses emotion rather than logic when he argues.
We were bombing targets that had no military bases. We were bombing places that were just civilian targets.

Nixon: See, the attack in the North that we have in mind, power plants, whatever's left - POL [petroleum], the docks. And, I still think we ought to take the dikes out now. Will that drown people?

Kissinger: About two hundred thousand people.

He excuses Jane Fonda calling POWs liars because according to Overdose some of them were liars. I guess he knows they were lying about their captivity. The Hanoi Hilton really was just like the other Hiltons and not at all a terrible place to be. The POWs were just lying.
Wrong. Jane Fonda said that the POWs who said torture was widespread and systematic were lying. Not that there was no torture.

Jane Fonda didn't know she was on an anti-aircraft gun. She thought she was simply sitting somewhere else and singing a song. Of course that doesn't explain why she was looking through the sights. Maybe she thought it was a kaleidescope or something..
She knew where she was. And she admits that sitting down was a mistake. And she has apologized for it. Why you can't accept she made a mistake and has said sorry for it is beyond me.

I just never change it when I am discussing things with him because he is always so damned wrong.
I say the same to you. The reason I never change my opinion in dicussions with you is because you are so "damned wrong".

Jane Fonda went to Hanoi during a time we were fighting the North Vietnamese.
She went to expose the lies the Nixon Administration was spewing to the American public.

She knowingly sat on an anti-aircraft gun and posed.
That's a lie. She didn't "knowingly" do this, but she admits that what she did was wrong.

She called American POWs liars and said they weren't mistreated.
Jane Fonda has simply said it was not widespread and or systematic throughout North Vietnam. She has said time and time again that torture did occur, just that it wasn't widespread. Stop lying about what she exactly said.

Fonda may have been so angered by this that she turned her anger toward the troops.
I don't think there is any proof she took her anger out towards the troops.

but were doing it because they were soldiers and were ordered to do it and expected to do it.
This reminds me of the excuses the Nazis gave.

"I was ordered to kill thousands of Jews!" And that has never and should never hold up on court. Humans know what is right and wrong. Humans know what is and isn't OK in regards to war crimes.

Overdose is simply showing his lack of knowledge when it comes to the military. Blowing up dikes is NOT a war crime. It is an act that is done all the time in order to deny the enemy certain logistical advantages.

FACT;

Article 54 of the Geneva Convention prohibits any country from undermining "objects indispensable to the survival of (another country's) civilian population" including drinking water installations and supplies.

During the Vietnam War, many dikes were destroyed or damaged by systematic bombing. North Vietnam claimed a death toll of 2 to 3 million inhabitants due to the drowning or starvation that resulted from these attacks.

He excuses Jane Fonda calling POWs liars because according to Overdose some of them were liars.

It is quite possible that among 50 or 60 thousand men, some of them could have been liars.


Jane Fonda didn't know she was on an anti-aircraft gun. She thought she was simply sitting somewhere else and singing a song.

Yes, Fonda knew she was on an AA gun, because she has repeatedly APOLOGIZED for having that picture taken.

"""I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families. I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.""________Jane Fonda


She called American POWs liars and said they weren't mistreated.

True.

And that was wrong. It was unfair and misleading. But is a few comments that were false, that were made in the heat of anger at a destrucitve and bloody war, reason enough for the insane level of vitriol and hatred that we still see directed at fonda?? No.

I say again that a huge part of the reason for such hatred of Fonda from the veterans in America stems from the widespread dissemination of absolutely FALSE stories that were spread about her, such as the **Fonda betrayed men who passed her slips of paper and caused three men to be beaten to death** lie.

And Fonda has apologized again and again for her actions.

""The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda's daughter, just a woman sitting on a enemy aircraft gun, was a betrayal". "It was like I was thumbing my nose at the military. And at the country that gave me privilege. It was the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine. I don't thumb my nose at this country. I care deeply about American soldiers.""______Jane Fonda

Wrong. Jane Fonda said that the POWs who said torture was widespread and systematic were lying. Not that there was no torture.Since the torture of POW's was in fact widespread and systematic they clearly were not lying.Jane Fonda has simply said it was not widespread and or systematic throughout North Vietnam. She has said time and time again that torture did occur, just that it wasn't widespread. Stop lying about what she exactly said.I'll ask the question again. How in the world could Jane Fonda possibly have known this?

And Fonda has apologized again and again for her actions.

In all fairness, we only see these apologies when she has a new movie or book to pimp.

Since the torture of POW's was in fact widespread and systematic they clearly were not lying.I'll ask the question again. How in the world could Jane Fonda possibly have known this?

James Stockdale who was a Vice Presidential canadaite varifies Jane Fonda's stance, being a POW himself saying that, no more than 10% of US pilots in captivity received more than 90% of the torture, usually for acts of resistance.

"I'm quite sure that there were incidents of torture...but the pilots who were saying it was the policy of the Vietnamese and that it was systematic, I believe that's a lie." –Jane Fonda

The reason Jane Fonda would know this is because of the Veterans she talked to and the POWs she met with who looked physically healthy and told her they were mentally healthy. She realizes they could have been lying, but due to the way they physically looked she believed they were not tortured.

Just a question related to some of the comments on this thread...

Since when was Nixon the U.S. face of Vietnam conflict? Unless I forget my history, initial American involvement in Vietnam started in the Kennedy presidency and reached it's apex during the Johnson administration.

James Stockdale who was a Vice Presidential canadaite varifies Jane Fonda's stance, being a POW himself saying that, no more than 10% of US pilots in captivity received more than 90% of the torture, usually for acts of resistance.


<<<gasp!!!>>>

This can mean but one thing! ..........James Stockdale is a dirty pinko cuuuuuuuumm-ya-nisst!!!

In all fairness, we only see these apologies when she has a new movie or book to pimp.
This has to do with the fact when she has a new movie and or book to promote, people interview her. And the question always comes up about Vietnam and she always has to apologize for it again and again because people keep protesting her when anything new she releases comes out.

However, I do believe she has apologized for it when something hasn’t been coming out. Such as when she met with the POWs after the war was over in a private meeting.

James Stockdale who was a Vice Presidential canadaite varifies Jane Fonda's stance, being a POW himself saying that, no more than 10% of US pilots in captivity received more than 90% of the torture, usually for acts of resistance.First of all you provide no source for this. Second, while a minority of prisoners may have received the brunt of the torture this by no means 'varifies' [sic] anything. If you could find a single POW who was captured prior to 1971 who says he was not tortured you'd have a start on making your case. But you won't because every single one of them was tortured. This is what is meant by 'widespread and systematic'.The reason Jane Fonda would know this is because of the Veterans she talked to and the POWs she met with who looked physically healthy and told her they were mentally healthy. She realizes they could have been lying, but due to the way they physically looked she believed they were not tortured.When my Dad returned from his six years in captivity he might have been said to look 'healthy' if the term were very loosely applied. This is because he gained 20 lbs during his last two years in jail (improving from an extremely malnourished 120 lbs to a plainly malnourished 140 lbs, his normal weight being 180 lbs). Conditions for the prisoners started improving in 1970 when the Vietnamese government became sure of two things: 1. That the US was looking for a political solution to end their involvement and, 2. The negative propaganda their torture policy generated far outweighed any military value. The long periods of solitary confinement came to an end, the routine beatings for the most part stopped and the food got better. So yes, when Jane Fonda showed up in 1972 she could look at some of these guys and think they didn't look so bad. But that by itself is nowhere near enough evidence to conclude that the torture was not 'widespread and systematic'.

First of all you provide no source for this.
Look it up yourself if you don't believe it.

Second, while a minority of prisoners may have received the brunt of the torture this by no means 'varifies' [sic] anything. If you could find a single POW who was captured prior to 1971 who says he was not tortured you'd have a start on making your case.

But you won't because every single one of them was tortured. This is what is meant by 'widespread and systematic'.When my Dad returned from his six years in captivity he might have been said to look 'healthy' if the term were very loosely applied. This is because he gained 20 lbs during his last two years in jail (improving from an extremely malnourished 120 lbs to a plainly malnourished 140 lbs, his normal weight being 180 lbs). Conditions for the prisoners started improving in 1970 when the Vietnamese government became sure of two things: 1. That the US was looking for a political solution to end their involvement and, 2. The negative propaganda their torture policy generated far outweighed any military value. The long periods of solitary confinement came to an end, the routine beatings for the most part stopped and the food got better. So yes, when Jane Fonda showed up in 1972 she could look at some of these guys and think they didn't look so bad. But that by itself is nowhere near enough evidence to conclude that the torture was not 'widespread and systematic'.
Ok. Here is what Jane Fonda has recently said, "But what I didn't know at the time was that prior to 1969 there had in fact been systematic torture of POWs" However, after 1969 the torture was basically stopped. So she did make a misstatment. And she has since said, "I was wrong and I am sorry" I don't see why we can't forgive her. She made 2 minor lapses of judgment and I don't think those should take away from the real GOAL of her trip to Vietnam.

You’re a Goddamned simpleton and a child, Overlydramatic.

This man just revealed that his father was a POW for six long years, and that his father shared with him the knowledge and circumstances of his long, torturous experience in the prisons of North Vietnam. Personally.

You have recently read a book by a dim-witted female pop-icon, started a thread in order to set the record straight about the object of your latest crush, ignored all advice to drop the subject (lest you continue to reveal yourself to be a complete and utter moron), and yet you persist.

And yet, you show Sedan the ultimate disrespect by asking him to ignore all that he learned first-hand from his father, and ‘look it up if you don’t believe it’???

You need serious psychological help, young man.
Or an ass-whipping.
One or the other.

Where’s YOUR dad in all this?
Does he know how you spend your time on the internet, young sir?

I'll bet your Daddy is real proud of you.
Callous, immature, argumentative jackass!!

This man just revealed that his father was a POW for six long years, and that his father shared with him the knowledge and circumstances of his long, torturous experience in the prisons of North Vietnam. Personally.
When did I say his father lied? When did I say his father's experience wasn't true? When did I say instances of torture never occured?

You have recently read a book by a dim-witted female pop-icon, started a thread in order to set the record straight about the object of your latest crush, ignored all advice to drop the subject (lest you continue to reveal yourself to be a complete and utter moron), and yet you persist.
You want me to drop the subject because you have no defense for your lies you have spewed about Jane Fonda.

And yet, you show Sedan the ultimate disrespect by asking him to ignore all that he learned first-hand from his father, and ‘look it up if you don’t believe it’???
I never asked Sedan to ignore what he learned. Nor did I say what he learned was incorrect. Stop putting words in my mouth, Sparky.

You need serious psychological help, young man.
Or an ass-whipping.
One or the other.

Where’s YOUR dad in all this?
Does he know how you spend your time on the internet, young sir?

I'll bet your Daddy is real proud of you.
Callous, immature, argumentative jackass!!
:lolhit: Typically when people have been proven wrong they resort to name-calling and threats. Either debate the issues or STFU.

There’s no room for debate here, Overlydramatic.

Jane Fonda: No-talent, sperm-thirsty Hollywood whore. Political-activist of questionable repute, and even more questionable mental faculties. Long-known to confuse her celebrity with political relevance. A skilled and ardent lover and occasional companion of convenience to me for some years, but in the end her psychosis turned out to be a show-stopper in our mutual quest for some sort of long-term physical relationship.
I miss her.
Like I miss a fever blister.

Overdose: A bleating, overly-presumptuous yapper-dog of a human being. Over-indulged, over-pampered, and ultimately, over-dosed on Ritalin and Prozac. Confuses his access to the internet (paid for by mommy, by the way) with a mandate to irritate each and every person he encounters on the internet. Has yet to encounter the real world, and is ill-equipped for same. Is headed for a big fall, and an equally large disappointment when he makes his first attempt to head out into the cold, hard, real world.
Will likely be a boomerang child (Mom will keep throwing him out, and he will keep returning, time after time), and is destined to occupy Mommy’s spare room well into his 40’s. Cats like him though, he is a great dancer, and it is said that he is a really talented seamstress.

Your response, young sir?
I can do this all day.

And she has since said, "I was wrong and I am sorry" I don't see why we can't forgive her. She made 2 minor lapses of judgment and I don't think those should take away from the real GOAL of her trip to Vietnam.

You have the utter gall to dispute the words of a man who learned the horrors of the hanoi hilton from his father - one who was a POW himself? How dare you? Just who the hell do you think you are? An arrogant, ignorant pissant is how you come across. You cry about being disrespected and your level of disrespect has just gone way over the limits. Where is your sense of decency?

You speak of "minor lapses in judgment" and "don't see why we can't forgive her".
Some apologies are never accepted. One day you'll figure that out. hanoi jane deserves nothing from anyone I know.

Your crediblity -what little you ever had- OD is gone. You've clearly shown yourself to be everything you've attributed to those you complain of: insensitive, rude, mean, hateful and shallow. Your words no longer have any sound to them - a bleating sheep is how I picture you.

At the very least you owe Sedan a sincere apology, if you are indeed capable of such a task.

Go away kid, just go away.

Look it up yourself if you don't believe it.
No, provide the evidence here or Jane Fonda will remain a haughty bitch. Wait, she always will be.

You have the utter gall to dispute the words of a man who learned the horrors of the hanoi hilton from his father - one who was a POW himself?

You need to re-read the posts.

OD did not say or imply that a single thing that sedan said was not true.

When he said to him - "Look it up" , it was in specific reference to whether or not James Stockdale made a particular statement.

The other thing OD said was to make an excellent point about the time when Fonda made the statement that angered veterans so, it was 2 or 3 years AFTER conditions had greatly improved for POWs over there........and she later said that she was wrong, and apologized.

Sheesh. You guys are letting this psychotic hatred you have for Jane Fonda override your powers of reason.

No, Freethinker, that is not what is happening at all.

People have finally come to the realization that Overdose is a spoiled child who doesn't care who he hurts just so long as he has his say.

Ample evidences of Jane Fonda's behavior during the Vietnam War have been given, in many cases by people who were intimately involved with that war, either as combatants or the children of combatants. Rather than conceding a single point, even that Jane Fonda knowingly posed on an anti-aircraft gun, something even she doesn't deny, Overdose continues his mantra of, 'she has said she was sorry'.

When Overdose metamorphs into Overbearing during discussions of people like Madonna that is one thing. Madonna is merely a pop icon and his adoration of her is cute, sort of like puppy love. When he insults someone who's father spent six years as a prisoner of war of the North Vietnames he goes from being cute to being childish and mean-spirited.

Overdose has read one, self serving book written by Jane Fonda, a person with an obvious desire to change her image and to make less of the transgressions she committed at the time of the Viet Nam War. Rather than critically assessing what she has written in light of the reasons she would have for lessening her guilt, or of listening to the words of people who are far more intimately knowledgeable about the era than he, he insist on a blanket defense of her. He does this not by presenting facts but by simply ignoring facts that are inconvenient.

Some posters are annoyed that Overdose is being called childish and immature. How else is one expected to respond to a poster who has repeatedly demonstrated that that is exactly what he is, an immature, childish poster who answers factual posts with an incessant whine of, "but she said she was sorry."?

Outstanding post, Frogger.

Spot-on.
:thumbs:

OD,
Try to look at it from a Vietnam veteran's perspective instead of Jane Fonda's and you might understand why it's hard for them to forgive her. You may see her visit to North Vietnam as just part of her anti-war activism, but to a Vietnam veteran she was mingling with the very people who were trying to kill him. Throw in her contributions towards the hatred of Vietnam vets back home and it's not difficult to see why so many veterans are unwilling to offer forgiveness.

People have finally come to the realization that Overdose is a spoiled child who doesn't care who he hurts just so long as he has his say.

I can't agree with you here Frogger. OD is not out to hurt people with his comments.


When he insults someone who's father spent six years as a prisoner of war of the North Vietnames he goes from being cute to being childish and mean-spirited.

While it's clear that he may have insulted sedan with his comments, I think it's equally clear that this was not the purpose of his comment. So far others have been outraged by his comment, but sedan has not made his feelings known on the subject yet.


He does this not by presenting facts but by simply ignoring facts that are inconvenient.

We're all occasdionally guilty of that particular transgression Frogger, even you.


Some posters are annoyed that Overdose is being called childish and immature.

I'm not so much annoyed as I am disappointed. I would hope that our older more mature posters could find a better way to address what they perceive to be a problem.


How else is one expected to respond to a poster who has repeatedly demonstrated that that is exactly what he is, an immature, childish poster who answers factual posts with an incessant whine of, "but she said she was sorry."?

By setting a better example.

Sometimes the carrot works at other times the stick. This has become time for the latter.

Sometimes the carrot works at other times the stick.

Sometimes.


This has become time for the latter.

How's that working out for you?

It's all a question of parenting philosophy, sir.

Some parents prefer a softer touch with their youngsters. And as a result, those same children end up running through the aisles at Walmart screaming and crying, "Gimme gimme gimme!!", and thoroughly irritating the shit out of all the other customers standing in line at the checkout counter.

Other parents are advocates of 'tough love'. They hold their children accountable for their actions, call bullshit when they act up, and mete out the punishment in a fair but firm fashion. And those kids are unusually well-behaved in public.

If OD (or any other poster who presumes to step into the ring with their boxing gloves laced on tight) acts like a spoiled, petulent child, and disrespects other posters who should be accorded a modicum of respect, then I'm perfectly willing to offer some tough love. In the form of clear, concise, and brutally-honest feedback.

*shit* I think I just mixed metaphors there.

It's all a question of parenting philosophy, sir.


Perhaps, but we're not OD's parents.

Many a teacher or college professor has had to take on that surrogate role though, whenever the parents have neglected their responsibilities, and for the welfare of the entire class some stern counseling must take place.

Same thing with Drill Sergeants, and even the other parents at the hypothetical WalMart.

Who's to say that we don't have some responsibility to police our own web-youngsters sir? Rather than sit idly-by and let silly, immature transgressions go by without comment?

There's a real opportunity for some true learning to take place, after all.

Many a teacher or college professor has had to take on that surrogate role though, whenever the parents have neglected their responsibilities, and for the welfare of the entire class some stern counseling must take place.

Same thing with Drill Sergeants, and even the other parents at the hypothetical WalMart.

Who's to say that we don't have some responsibility to police our own web-youngsters sir? Rather than sit idly-by and let silly, immature transgressions go by without comment?

There's a real opportunity for some true learning to take place, after all.

Agreed on all counts, but what we don't have here is a captive audience. Parents, and even pseudo-parents, all have ways to entice someone to listen to their advice, or their admonishments. It seems to me that here on Allforums you stand a better chance of driving away the very person you are trying to influence positively by wielding the stick, instead of waving the carrot.

As I said to you before, you can't make someone listen here, you have to make them want to listen.

While it's clear that he may have insulted sedan with his comments, I think it's equally clear that this was not the purpose of his comment. So far others have been outraged by his comment, but sedan has not made his feelings known on the subject yet.For the record I am not personally insulted by OD's remarks. He had requested that this debate return to the issues and I was happy to oblige him by challenging him on a point of fact. Had OD responded by calling my Dad a liar I would very much have been offended. But he replied with

Ok. Here is what Jane Fonda has recently said, "But what I didn't know at the time was that prior to 1969 there had in fact been systematic torture of POWs" However, after 1969 the torture was basically stopped. So she did make a misstatment. While inaccurate (there was plenty of torture still going on through 1970) I do take this as a recantation of his (and Jane Fonda's) earlier claim, although I am curious about the source of this quote as well. And no, I should not have to look this up. It is incumbent upon the person attributing a quote to provide the source. This doesn't have to be a link -- if it's a book give the title and page number.

For the record I am not personally insulted by OD's remarks. He had requested that this debate return to the issues and I was happy to oblige him by challenging him on a point of fact. Had OD responded by calling my Dad a liar I would very much have been offended.

You are to be commended for your equanimity. You set a fine example for the other posters here.

You are to be commended for your equanimity.I grew up living the Vietnam debate. As a kid I watched my Mom evolve from a non-political officer's wife into an anti-war activist, and I attended my first anti-war rally when I was eleven years old. When my Dad came home he thought Nixon was the greatest man alive while my Mom of course despised the man. Needless to say there was a great deal of disagreement between them about the war (as well as a host of other unresolved issues). Many of their arguments turned caustic and bitter, lasting long into the night. It was like this for several years, and while this went on we kids found ourselves not quite stuck in the middle. My older sister and I sided with our Mom while my older brother sided with my Dad. We were indeed a house divided and I have a lot of bad memories (and a few outrageously comical ones) of those difficult times.

To my parents' mutual credit, though, they persevered and held their marriage together. Eventually all of us came to gain an acceptance of each other and began to understand that what we had experienced together outweighed, in the end, what separated us. This was by no means easy, nor could any of us see this as it occurred. It was just that the tension imperceptibly eased over time. And that's what it took: time and the commitment of my parents to each other.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that any equanimity I might have comes from years of living inside the issue. So while I commend OD for taking an interest in the subject I hope he doesn't stop with just one book or examine only one point of view. The Vietnam debate is/was far too complex to be understood from any single perspective. And as my parents learned, at some point you have to stop re-fighting the war.

So while I commend OD for taking an interest in the subject I hope he doesn't stop with just one book or examine only one point of view. The Vietnam debate is/was far too complex to be understood from any single perspective. And as my parents learned, at some point you have to stop re-fighting the war.

Excellent post, sedan.

People have finally come to the realization that Overdose is a spoiled child who doesn't care who he hurts just so long as he has his say.

Ample evidences of Jane Fonda's behavior during the Vietnam War have been given, in many cases by people who were intimately involved with that war, either as combatants or the children of combatants. Rather than conceding a single point, even that Jane Fonda knowingly posed on an anti-aircraft gun, something even she doesn't deny, Overdose continues his mantra of, 'she has said she was sorry'.

From my point of view, you have it almost exactly backwards.

OD has for the most part made calm and reasoned arguments throughout.

The responses, for the most part have consisted of -- "Why, you uppity litle whippersnapper, how dare you defend that evil Jane Fonda!!....me and a lot of other guys in the military still hate her a lot!!, so stop trying to change our minds by telling us what she actually did!!!"

People CAN do things that they later look back on and regret, and they can apologize for them. That is the case with Jane Fonda.

The intense hatred people have stated that they STILL have for her is far beyond my ability to comprehend.........IF she had manned Vietnamese anti-aircraft weapons and fired on and killed soldiers, then i would understand the anger and the animosity. But all she did was SPEAK what she honestly thought and felt about the situation at the time.

People who feel the desperate need to keep their hate for her burning strong have WAY blown out of proportion , it seems to me, anything 'bad' or negative that she did........and that is all BESIDE the fact that she has repeatedly stated her undying regret and abject apologies for her actions.

People still harboring an intense hatred for someone who simply voiced their opinions --35 years ago-- about a war are seemingly unable to objectively weigh the facts of the case.

As I have previously stated, I see you as an America hater, Freethinker and someone who would applaud anyone who said anything at all against the United States. I am not at all surprised that you think Jane Fonda is the cat's meow.

As for me, I will despise her until the day I die. I will never again see a Jane Fonda movie, even on television. I will never watch a t.v. program she appears on. I will never read a book she has written. In my opinion Jane Fonda is a vile piece of excrement who would make the world a better place by leaving it.

Hate people. It's the American thing to do!

Who cares about Jane Fonda?

As you were never in Vietnam - or the military, FT, I would not expect you to understand that nothing coming out of hanoi jane's mouth is even heard by a great many Vietnam vets. hanoi jane was granted status as dogshit decades ago, and there has been no reason to change that status in a great many minds. Doesn't matter what she did before 1969 or after that visit in 1972. The photographs were enough. A picture is worth a thousand words, correct? That's what you and other supporters don't seem to realize.

I am not at all surprised that you think Jane Fonda is the cat's meow.

As for me, I will despise her until the day I die. I will never again see a Jane Fonda movie, even on television. I will never watch a t.v. program she appears on. I will never read a book she has written. In my opinion Jane Fonda is a vile piece of excrement who would make the world a better place by leaving it.

a) I do not think, and have not hinted, that I view Jane Fonda as "the cat's meow". I have stated on this board in the past few posts that what she did was regrettable and misguided. For you to now come forth with this silly --"you think Jane Fonda is the cat's meow"-- is to behave like a petulant six year on the schoolyard. ROTFLMAO.

b) I find it laughable and foolish --to put it mildly-- for an adult to proclaim; "I will never watch a t.v. program she appears on. I will never read a book she has written" -- simply because 35 years ago she gave voice to certain anti-war sentiments that you did not agree with.

You --it is now made abundantly clear to me-- are EXACTLY the sort of grotesquely self-deluded fool that Mark Twain was refering to when he wrote;

""“The loud little handful will shout for war. The pulpit will warily and cautiously protest at first…The great mass of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes, and will try to make out why there should be a war, and they will say earnestly and indignantly: ‘It is unjust and dishonorable and there is no need for war.’ Then the few will shout even louder…Before long you will see a curious thing: anti-war speakers will be stoned from the platform, and free speech will be strangled by hordes of furious men who still agree with the speakers but dare not admit it...Next, statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.”--------— Mark Twain

FACT;

Article 54 of the Geneva Convention prohibits any country from undermining "objects indispensable to the survival of (another country's) civilian population" including drinking water installations and supplies.

During the Vietnam War, many dikes were destroyed or damaged by systematic bombing. North Vietnam claimed a death toll of 2 to 3 million inhabitants due to the drowning or starvation that resulted from these attacks.


I may be wrong, again, but I think you'll find that article was not applicable to the Vietnam war.

I find it laughable and foolish --to put it mildly-- for an adult to proclaim; "I will never watch a t.v. program she appears on. I will never read a book she has written" -- simply because 35 years ago she gave voice to certain anti-war sentiments that you did not agree with. (Freethinker)

Once again you have allowed the point to said completely over your head, Freethinker.

There are lots of people who voiced anti-war sentiments at the same time as Jane Fonda; Ed Asner, Jon Voight, a host of others. I have no problem with them. They were against the war and said so loudly and clearly. What Jane Fonda did was something else. She not only voiced opposition to the war, she went to Hanoi and gave active support to the people who were holding our people captive.

If I were to watch a Jane Fonda movie, read a book by Jane Fonda, watch a t.v. program on which she appeared I would be giving her my tacit approval. I would be saying that I have forgotten what she did. As a veteran that is something I will never do.

You have the utter gall to dispute the words of a man who learned the horrors of the hanoi hilton from his father - one who was a POW himself?
I love how both ES, Sparky and Frogger all jump all over me for "disputing" the words of Sedan's father. However, I never said his father was a liar. Nor did I say his father wasn't telling the truth.

I also notice how they have yet agian resorted to name-calling and avoided the real issues at hand.

I also notice how Sedan wasn't offended by my comments and understood I was not saying his fatherw as a liar.

As you were never in Vietnam - or the military, FT, I would not expect you to understand that nothing coming out of hanoi jane's mouth is even heard by a great many Vietnam vets.
I have proven that many Veterans support Jane Fonda and forgive her. Yet you keep implying all Veterans hate her.

Overdose uses emotion rather than logic when he argues.
He has more estrogen coursing his veins than Paris Hilton. What do you expect?

I have proven that many Veterans support Jane Fonda and forgive her. Yet you keep implying all Veterans hate her.

You've proven nothing. Nowhere has it been said that all veterans were involved. A pattern in your posts is to distort statements to meet your own twisted sense of reality.

:upyours:

She knowingly sat on an anti-aircraft gun and posed.
That's a lie. She didn't "knowingly" do this, but she admits that what she did was wrong.
How the fuck do you not "knowingly" sit on an anti-aircraft gun??? Are you trying to say that this "visionary" woman (a peace-lover, if you will; a woman brilliant enough to read through the entire Nixon administration (who wasn't responsible for the Vietnam War, but whatever - )) didn't have the slightest clue that she was looking down the barrel of a 30mm gun?

Pfft - yeah...I'll buy that one for a dollar. :rolleyes:

I love how both ES, Sparky and Frogger all jump all over me for "disputing" the words of Sedan's father.
No, you were just flippant enough to say, "look it up" (in a defensive tone, I might add) when Sedan asked for a source, and the kicker is you know goddamned good and well that it's your job to supply one, not his to play secretary, hence you were being a dick. You were harsh to the one man here who should be stamped with an imprimatur of class and dignity, who's been big enough to divulge his secrets publicly, and you (as per your usual MO) hide behind the things you "don't" say like a mealy-mouthed pussy. Even if Sedan isn't upset, that's not the point – you argue like a woman on the rag and it pisses people off.

Oh, and you're welcome, Sedan.

In 1972 Jane Fonda would have been about 40-41, so I cant say she was young and exploited, her anti war stance was excessive.
I just hate her for all them crap films and fitness videos.
As frogger says, famous faces of the screen made their feelings felt and left it at that.

How the fuck do you not "knowingly" sit on an anti-aircraft gun??? Are you trying to say that this "visionary" woman (a peace-lover, if you will; a woman brilliant enough to read through the entire Nixon administration (who wasn't responsible for the Vietnam War, but whatever - )) didn't have the slightest clue that she was looking down the barrel of a 30mm gun?

Pfft - yeah...I'll buy that one for a dollar. :rolleyes:
I've explained this a few times.

What she describes in her book is that she was singing a Vietnamese song she had learned. And since she did not speak the language very well everyone was laughing at her pronunciations and someone led her to that seat, where she sat down still laughing and singing, not realizing where exactly she was sitting. However, once she got up she realized what had happened. But it was too late, the cameras had already snapped shots of her sitting down for only 5 minutes, in a broken down anti-aircraft gun. And to be honest, that is a stupid mistake. However we all make mistakes and she has apologized and paid dearly for this one mistake (that took all of 5 minutes) she made over 30 years ago.

No, you were just flippant enough to say, "look it up" (in a defensive tone, I might add) when Sedan asked for a source, and the kicker is you know goddamned good and well that it's your job to supply one, not his to play secretary, hence you were being a dick. You were harsh to the one man here who should be stamped with an imprimatur of class and dignity, who's been big enough to divulge his secrets publicly, and you (as per your usual MO) hide behind the things you "don't" say like a mealy-mouthed pussy. Even if Sedan isn't upset, that's not the point – you argue like a woman on the rag and it pisses people off.
Oh, and you're welcome, Sedan.

1. I said look it up, as in look up the claim that person made. It may or may not be true and I may be wrong, but I believe they did say it.
2. You are again resorting to name-calling and baseless claims.

------

Oh, ES...I did prove Veterans do support Jane Fonda. Just because you don't want to admit it does not mean it isn't true.

You've proven nothing.

You've proven nothing.
But to prove your point wrong Jane Fonda met with the Waterbury Vietnam veterans. Many of them had shirts that said, “Hanoi Jane” and “Traitor” however she went there to explain herself. One of the men, Rich Roland forgave her. He said to her recently, “I intended to throw the card in your face if I wasn’t happy with what happened in the meeting” (clearly, he was happy with the way it turned out since he didn't throw the card) and then said after the meeting it was the start of his "healing". He also went on to raise money for the children in Vietnam who faced birth defects WITH Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda also did this with the Connecticut Vietnam Veterans.

ABC reported a quote by Bob Genovese (a Vietnam vet) as saying, “There was a lot of things that she talked about that I personally didn’t know before, and I don’t think a lot of the men in the room knew before, and it helped explain some of the reasons why she did some of the things she did back in 1972.” Clearly, he does not hate Jane Fonda or think she is a traitor. He may disagree with a few things, but even Jane has admitted not everything she did was correct.

1. I said look it up, as in look up the claim that person made. It may or may not be true and I may be wrong, but I believe they did say it.
What the shit is this? Show us the evidence, we don't care if you "felt" or "believed" they said this.

What the shit is this? Show us the evidence, we don't care if you "felt" or "believed" they said this.
I love how I am required to show all of this evidence, yet no one attacking Jane Fonda has ever been required to show any shred of evidence. Wait, I asked for evidence and all I got was personal attacks. But no one else seems to think they need to provide evidence.

I love how I am required to show all of this evidence, yet no one attacking Jane Fonda has ever been required to show any shred of evidence. Wait, I asked for evidence and all I got was personal attacks. But no one else seems to think they need to provide evidence.
I don't like Jane Fonda because she is of Hollywood ilk. I do not like bigshot actors. So to me, that woman is an overpaid hunk of flesh. I have made zero claims that require evidence in this thread, you have made this one and when asked for evidence, you ignore the plea for it. Why?

But to prove your point wrong Jane Fonda met with the Waterbury Vietnam veterans. Many of them had shirts that said, “Hanoi Jane” and “Traitor” however she went there to explain herself. One of the men, Rich Roland forgave her. He said to her recently, “I intended to throw the card in your face if I wasn’t happy with what happened in the meeting” (clearly, he was happy with the way it turned out since he didn't throw the card) and then said after the meeting it was the start of his "healing". He also went on to raise money for the children in Vietnam who faced birth defects WITH Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda also did this with the Connecticut Vietnam Veterans.

ABC reported a quote by Bob Genovese (a Vietnam vet) as saying, “There was a lot of things that she talked about that I personally didn’t know before, and I don’t think a lot of the men in the room knew before, and it helped explain some of the reasons why she did some of the things she did back in 1972.” Clearly, he does not hate Jane Fonda or think she is a traitor. He may disagree with a few things, but even Jane has admitted not everything she did was correct.

A few does not constitute all. You've proven nothing.

A few does not constitute all. You've proven nothing.
I never said all veterans forgave her. I said that I have proven veterans (as in some) do forgive her. Don't put words in my mouth. I have said time and time again that SOME veterans have forgiven her and that YOU do not speak for all veterans. :)

IF anyone can speak for veterans, it is another veteran. Certainly that does not apply to the likes of you.

IF anyone can speak for veterans, it is another veteran. Certainly that does not apply to the likes of you.
I'm a veteran bedwetter, does that count?

IF anyone can speak for veterans, it is another veteran. Certainly that does not apply to the likes of you.
I never said I spoke for the veterans. When did I say that? Obviously I was using actual veterans as my example to show that some veterans do not hate her.

Recently many members have expressed concern for my mental stability, lack of respect, stubborn-like personality and immaturity. Obviously this has created many threads of hateful and mean-spirited posts and replies. And sadly, I have let myself become apart of the problem and not the solution with my increasingly hurtful rebuttals. However, I think we can all be mature enough to realize that we have all said and done things that were un-warranted (or at least I can see things I’ve done that were un-called for). I did not mean for this thread to become so polarizing and once this topic finds closure, whatever that may be, I plan on taking a break from Allforums. What really drove home that there were negative feelings towards me was that an entire thread (meant to bad-mouth me) was created. Which clearly suggests that I have stirred up emotions to the point that I will not be taken seriously until time has passed.

– OD

IF anyone can speak for veterans, it is another veteran. Certainly that does not apply to the likes of you.

I'm a veteran and I approve this message!

I plan on taking a break from Allforums. I will not be taken seriously until time has passed. – OD

Don't bother, friend Overdose.
Please, hang around and debate with yourself until the cows come home.

You will always be taken seriously in this kinder-gentler society. You are, after all, the very model of the Prozac citizen of the current and future American welfare state.

The popular culture will always be eager to make excuses for your poor behavior, and will explain away your immaturity and your failure to conform to the societal norms of the Stone Age of the not-too-distant past. (The norms of the Ward and June Cleaver-style parents who would expect that we are all accountable for our actions and are personally responsible for our failures, faux pas, and shortcomings.)

In the end, neither you nor any other slacker youth will ever have to actually accomplish anything, prove anything, or achieve anything. Mommy and Daddy (either individually or collectively) will always pay your way, bail you out, and take you in when your credit cards are maxed-out and the bills come due.
The guest room will always be open for you, and there will always be food in the fridge for you.

And when you post your ridiculous threads to any number of web-forums, nobody will ever call bullshit on you.

You are, after all, The Golden Child.
I'm so proud of you I could just weep.
What a privileged position to find yourself in!!
(Unaccountable and totally without limitations or Governance.)
God bless you my son.
Please, go forward with all your usual allforums postings and pop-culture soliloque’s, with all of our blessings.
I myself have learned a hard lesson, and will only have words of praise and adoration for you from here on out.
It’s the way of the world, after all.
:hugs:

Ouch... I sincerely don't want to be that dependent "Prozac citizen"... But I think I always will rely on other people... I mean, I'm paralyzed with fear at the thought of ordering a pizza on the phone. I've done it before of course, but it scares the hell out of me. Asking for things in stores and restaurants is hard too.

In the end, neither you nor any other slacker youth will ever have to actually accomplish anything, prove anything, or achieve anything. Mommy and Daddy (either individually or collectively) will always pay your way, bail you out, and take you in when your credit cards are maxed-out and the bills come due.
The guest room will always be open for you, and there will always be food in the fridge for you.
I love how you know nothing about my parents. What I have or haven't accomplished. What I'm doing or where I'm going with my life. Basically your entire opinion on me has been formed by a few threads dealing with Madonna and a thread about Jane Fonda. It just so happens you disagreed with me on both and are thus making brash assumptions about my life and who I am as a person. But the real laugh is when you say my parents will "bail me out" and "pay my way". Now that made me chuckle.

For someone who knows zero details about my real life, you do seem pretty certain about them. And that's scary.

anybody got a pic of jane sitting on the AA gun.

Don't bother, friend Overdose.
Please, hang around and debate with yourself until the cows come home.

You will always be taken seriously in this kinder-gentler society. You are, after all, the very model of the Prozac citizen of the current and future American welfare state.

The popular culture will always be eager to make excuses for your poor behavior, and will explain away your immaturity and your failure to conform to the societal norms of the Stone Age of the not-too-distant past. (The norms of the Ward and June Cleaver-style parents who would expect that we are all accountable for our actions and are personally responsible for our failures, faux pas, and shortcomings.)

In the end, neither you nor any other slacker youth will ever have to actually accomplish anything, prove anything, or achieve anything. Mommy and Daddy (either individually or collectively) will always pay your way, bail you out, and take you in when your credit cards are maxed-out and the bills come due.
The guest room will always be open for you, and there will always be food in the fridge for you.

And when you post your ridiculous threads to any number of web-forums, nobody will ever call bullshit on you.

You are, after all, The Golden Child.
I'm so proud of you I could just weep.
What a privileged position to find yourself in!!
(Unaccountable and totally without limitations or Governance.)
God bless you my son.
Please, go forward with all your usual allforums postings and pop-culture soliloque’s, with all of our blessings.
I myself have learned a hard lesson, and will only have words of praise and adoration for you from here on out.
It’s the way of the world, after all.
:hugs:

I do wonder a lot at what my generation is turning themselves into. I find myself strangely ambivalent about it. I mean, yeah, it sucks, but seriously, what has the children of any other generation really done? They seem to have gotten progressively worse from the conservative viewpoint, from the great generation on down, and it seems to be easy to see how we might destroy everything that made America great.

Then I look at new discoveries in cognitive psychology that make the conservative viewpoint seem wholly absurd. Or minds just don't seem to be able to handle concepts like responsibility, discipline or nationalism, and in some cases, religion, without excessive conditioning and reinforcement, things that invariably decrease one's intelligence. Also people seem to be have an almost pathological distrust of many of these notions. New discoveries in the science and mechanics of attention, and philosophical leaps, not to mention technological advances that lead towards a new, unified theory of human behavior seem to offer society a way out from the excesses and wastefulness of our current iteration.

I wish I've been able to explore this topic more, but a more compelling dilemma has been occupying my mind as of late. When I regain my mental faculties, I shall expound more upon these things in their own threads.

Your a victum of Americas success, man.