God is the source of all good right? But isn't God the source of all evil too? After all, to be the creator of everything, you'd have to create everything. So, by either path you take, you are always submitting to the will of God, good or evil.

Perhaps these notions of good and evil only exist in humanity. Perhaps to God, there is no good or evil, just an endlessly interconnected web of neutral actions?

I now relate this to science for the purpose of an analogy. There are all different kinds of matter right? We have hundreds of different elements comprised of protons and neutrons and electrons and all sorts of other tiny particles. But matter can be broken down into energy, and no matter what kind of matter you started with, you still end up with the same energy.

What if all the distinctions we have made in our time as humanity dont really exist at all and are all just different names for the same thing?

Your thoughts?

Homer, God is not evil nor is it His will for people to do evil. Satan is the influence behind evil. Evil comes from Satan. God gave man a freewill to choose to do right or wrong. He didn't make us a bunch of robots who will only do what we've been programmed to do. God desires for people to do good, but won't force that on anyone. God tells us in the bible to do what is right and that there are consequnces if you don't.

Originally posted by the J Man
Homer, God is not evil nor is it His will for people to do evil. Satan is the influence behind evil. Evil comes from Satan. God gave man a freewill to choose to do right or wrong. He didn't make us a bunch of robots who will only do what we've been programmed to do. God desires for people to do good, but won't force that on anyone. God tells us in the bible to do what is right and that there are consequnces if you don't.

Who created Satan?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
God is the source of all good right? But isn't God the source of all evil too? After all, to be the creator of everything, you'd have to create everything. So, by either path you take, you are always submitting to the will of God, good or evil.

Perhaps these notions of good and evil only exist in humanity. Perhaps to God, there is no good or evil, just an endlessly interconnected web of neutral actions?

I now relate this to science for the purpose of an analogy. There are all different kinds of matter right? We have hundreds of different elements comprised of protons and neutrons and electrons and all sorts of other tiny particles. But matter can be broken down into energy, and no matter what kind of matter you started with, you still end up with the same energy.

What if all the distinctions we have made in our time as humanity dont really exist at all and are all just different names for the same thing?

Your thoughts?

Obviously, good and evil are man-made conventions. The criteria for what is good and evil varies from culture to culture.

As far as the total idea of your post...congratulations on perceiving the "All"...proceed to the next level. :D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Who created Satan?

God created him and He gave him a freewill as He did for everyone else. When Satan rebelled against God, He chose to rebel against Him. The third of the angels that sided with Satan, they chose to side with him.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
[B]Obviously, good and evil are man-made conventions. The criteria for what is good and evil varies from culture to culture.



So you don't believe that certain actions are good and certain actions are evil? Things like heping others, being kind to others, honesty, etc are good and things like lying, stealing, murder, gossip, greed, etc are bad? Things like that are not man-made. They're facts.

Originally posted by the J Man
So you don't believe that certain actions are good and certain actions are evil? Things like heping others, being kind to others, honesty, etc are good and things like lying, stealing, murder, gossip, greed, etc are bad? Things like that are not man-made. They're facts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will interject that I personally-diffinitely believe that some actions are better than others.
It is the controlling evil force, that I have trouble with.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
God is the source of all good right? But isn't God the source of all evil too? After all, to be the creator of everything, you'd have to create everything.Precisely (assuming a biblical-type creator god). If it exists god made it - including war, murder etc as well as natural disaster.
So, by either path you take, you are always submitting to the will of God, good or evil.Exactly. If god is good and god made everything the distinction breaks down.
Perhaps these notions of good and evil only exist in humanity.I agree. Evolutionary psychologists would say they correspond to physical brain structure that has been advantageous for survival in our history. Sociologists would say they are a cultural phenomenon arising from our tendency to contrast things and see opposites.
Perhaps to God, there is no good or evil, just an endlessly interconnected web of neutral actions?If a biblical creator god exists then good is whatever he deems it to be. This is "might is right" morality
I now relate this to science for the purpose of an analogy. There are all different kinds of matter right? We have hundreds of different elements comprised of protons and neutrons and electrons and all sorts of other tiny particles. But matter can be broken down into energy, and no matter what kind of matter you started with, you still end up with the same energy.Yes that is a fair summary. I would point out though that energy has distinguishable forms and its "one-ness" arises because forms are interchangable.
What if all the distinctions we have made in our time as humanity dont really exist at all and are all just different names for the same thing?A good point. They don't exist, they are value judgements. They are a construction for thinking and communication. If they did exist I would expect moral statements to be as uncontroversial as "sunshine feels hot".

Originally posted by the J Man
So you don't believe that certain actions are good and certain actions are evil? Things like heping others, being kind to others, honesty, etc are good and things like lying, stealing, murder, gossip, greed, etc are bad? Things like that are not man-made. They're facts. It's not that clear cut. For example...

Lying to a thief about where your valuables are.
Stealing because you are starving.
Murdering one to save a thousand.
Gossiping is good for your health. (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1044703)

Labelling the above as either good or evil is a social construct. ("Greed" is a noun that already carries a negative value judgement; to say "greed is bad" is like saying "being bad is bad.")

I prefer to think in terms of harm done to myself and others. It's not perfect and it's not always clear cut but at least tries to relate to real world referrants: pain and suffering.

Originally posted by the J Man
So you don't believe that certain actions are good and certain actions are evil? Things like heping others, being kind to others, honesty, etc are good and things like lying, stealing, murder, gossip, greed, etc are bad? Things like that are not man-made. They're facts.

I believe that you and I refer to certain actions as "good" and others as "bad" because we've been taught to think that way.

You speak of these ideas not being man-made, when obviously these ideas are man-made. If they weren't man-made ideas, if they somehow came to us from some outside source, why do different societies have different definitions of "good" and "bad"?

The examples that you listed of the "bad" things, aren't bad because the actions are inherently evil, they are bad because of their negative impact on an orderly society.

If you look at stealing as an example, the act of stealing is a rather neutral one in terms of its immediate effect. What I mean is, that if I steal from you, that act may harm you greatly, but it may give me great benefit. Sort of a wash when it comes to positives and negatives to the individuals involved. The harm from stealing is the damage it does to social order and harmony. Societies have made laws against stealing simply to facilitate humans living peacefully in groups. If man lived a solitary existence, there would be no laws against stealing as they would be unneccessary. There is also the point Blob made that these actions are evil or bad only when committed for evil or bad reasons...the actions themselves carry no inherent bias one way or the other.

JMan, another example might be that if I were a Jehovah Witness I would be proscribed from celebrating my birthday...JW's believe that is a "bad" thing...is it?

Originally posted by Vilepagan



JMan, another example might be that if I were a Jehovah Witness I would be proscribed from celebrating my birthday...JW's believe that is a "bad" thing...is it? [/B]

You sure got a thing for the Jehova Wintesses, don't you? Anyhow, about whether birthdays are bad or good, where do the JW's get that they are bad? If they are bad, there has to be a legitimate reason. They claim to follow the bible just as I, as a christian does, so where does it say in the bible that it's wrong to celebrate birthdays? The Lord says in His Word, the bible, that certain things are wrong because of the fact that they harm others and lead people awy from doing right, but where does God say that birthdays are wrong? If they are going to say that birthdays are wrong, they must support what they say as to why they are wrong.

Originally posted by the J Man
so where does it say in the bible that it's wrong to celebrate birthdays?
It doesn't. FYI:

4. Birthdays: The only two birthday celebrations spoken of in the Bible were held by persons who did not worship Jehovah. (Genesis 40:20-22; Mark 6:21, 22, 24-27) The early Christians did not celebrate birthdays. The custom of celebrating birthdays comes from ancient false religions. True Christians give gifts and have good times together at other times during the year.

From the official JW Watchtower (http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/article_11.htm) site.

Originally posted by the J Man
You sure got a thing for the Jehova Wintesses, don't you?

Not at all, I was just using this idea as an example where one group of people has determined that an activity that most people would find innocuous, or even "good", is in fact a "bad" thing. The act of celebrating your birthday isn't inherently good or bad, despite what one group "believes".


Anyhow, about whether birthdays are bad or good, where do the JW's get that they are bad? If they are bad, there has to be a legitimate reason. They claim to follow the bible just as I, as a christian does, so where does it say in the bible that it's wrong to celebrate birthdays? The Lord says in His Word, the bible, that certain things are wrong because of the fact that they harm others and lead people awy from doing right, but where does God say that birthdays are wrong? If they are going to say that birthdays are wrong, they must support what they say as to why they are wrong.

This is the whole point JMan...you read the Bible and use it to justify your judgements about "good" and "evil" based on what you've been taught rather than on some inherent quality in the ideas themselves.

An idea can't be good or evil, only the people who follow or discard those ideas can be given those labels.

Originally posted by the J Man
Homer, God is not evil nor is it His will for people to do evil. Satan is the influence behind evil. Evil comes from Satan. God gave man a freewill to choose to do right or wrong. He didn't make us a bunch of robots who will only do what we've been programmed to do. God desires for people to do good, but won't force that on anyone. God tells us in the bible to do what is right and that there are consequnces if you don't.
What establishes that we aren't essentially very complicated "robots" that are "programmed" by interdependent mental, physical, social, and cultural factors to do precisely what we do?

If God desires that everyone do good and wants our knowledge of Him as revealed by the Bible to guide us to do good and not to do evil, why doesn't He begin my making all of us certain beyond even unreasonable doubt of His existence and of the fact that the Bible contains the truth about how we should and shouldn't behave?

Excellent point, and I agree nagarjuna.

Originally posted by the J Man
God is not evil ... Evil comes from Satan.Not according to the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I decided to jump around to the different posts on the thread, sorry for the disorganized post

Who created Satan?

hehe, well if listen to the ol' story it goes like this: the most beautiful and wise and powerful of all the angels (lucifer)was very close to God, but he had free will in the same nature as humans do, and then gathered other angels behind him to overthrow God.
For that action God banished Lucifer and his followers (to hell) and they became fallen angels (demons) in a lower land (earth).
Earth is Satan's domain, he and his lackeys tries to push away people from God just as in Heaven.

It is an old story that explains how evil exists, and God does not take away free will, instead letting them do as they please but in turn they never experience his beauty and love;their loss.

Then the other story of Adam and Eve, satan (a serpent) tempts Eve to eat 'the forbidden fruit' that God did not want her to eat.
And since men have free will too, they are able to side with God or the fallen angels.

They are stories that help explain temptation and evil through an interesting little parable that makes it easy to understand and get engaged in.

So you don't believe that certain actions are good and certain actions are evil? Things like heping others, being kind to others, honesty, etc are good and things like lying, stealing, murder, gossip, greed, etc are bad? Things like that are not man-made. They're facts.

The concepts of good and evil are felt nowhere in nature but in humanity, everything works neutrally except us. They developed over time as society developed. There is a "conscience" in every human being that has the feeling supposedly. There are different takes on the subject but overall the chance is that those morals are placed by society because what is good helps fellow man, what is bad hurts fellow man.
i've heard stories of feral children living in jungles that function as animals because they have no sense of right or wrong.

I will interject that I personally-diffinitely believe that some actions are better than others.
It is the controlling evil force, that I have trouble with.

Again, things that hurt fellow man are sensed as bad, things that make fellow man feel better or assist, are sensed as good.

You speak of these ideas not being man-made, when obviously these ideas are man-made. If they weren't man-made ideas, if they somehow came to us from some outside source, why do different societies have different definitions of "good" and "bad"?

Care to give a few examples vile? Not too much difference, unless the extreme cases such as infanticide in gangetic india and honorable suicide in medieval japan and such.

If man lived a solitary existence, there would be no laws against stealing as they would be unneccessary.

There would be no laws period

God is the source of all good right?

That depends on how you view the Almighty, with such a symmetric world (night/day, male/female, positive/negative) you would have to suspect.

But isn't God the source of all evil too?

Mostly its viewed as individual choice, rebelling against what He stands for would result as being an evil action.

After all, to be the creator of everything, you'd have to create everything.

Not necessarily based upon how the universe works. You plant a seed, and with the proper affects it shall grow into a large tree.
If God had created energy (seed) and gravity(water) and space(soil/sunlight) the energy would be compressed into matter and explode, resulting in a chain of events that leads to the universe as it has come to be. Evolution, gravity, plate tectonics, and many other forces shaped this planet and others, that came as a direct result of energy going into "whack" and here we are :)

So, by either path you take, you are always submitting to the will of God, good or evil.

This is dependent on a great many things once again. If we talk from a christian standpoint (as we usually do in subjects like this on this forum), God would be loving but fair, much like a parent.
Some say that religion was created to control the masses and encourage goodwill among fellow men and justify actions of the state run by priests or kings. But still people feel a spiritual side to it, so that is not necessarily true.
Mainly good things as i stated earlier are beneficial to other men while hindering you, and bad hinder others but benefit you. Its all conditional and takes alot of time to think about.

just an endlessly interconnected web of neutral actions?

'Tis what we call nature

I now relate this to science for the purpose of an analogy. There are all different kinds of matter right? We have hundreds of different elements comprised of protons and neutrons and electrons and all sorts of other tiny particles. But matter can be broken down into energy, and no matter what kind of matter you started with, you still end up with the same energy.

What if all the distinctions we have made in our time as humanity dont really exist at all and are all just different names for the same thing?

Fascinating post homer, yes everything is one in the same, all started the same and all is essentially the same. But humanity does not function as the rest of nature does, we do not have neutral actions, we have rights and wrongs. We feel, we have emotions, we can imagine and think and reason. So its quite obvious that there is something different, something going on behind the scenes that makes us out of sync with the rest of reality.

Originally posted by Evakian
The concepts of good and evil are felt nowhere in nature but in humanity, everything works neutrally except us.


Well put.


Care to give a few examples vile? Not too much difference, unless the extreme cases such as infanticide in gangetic india and honorable suicide in medieval japan and such.


The extreme examples merely illustrate the point more starkly.

I'm not too familiar with Indian infanticide, but that's a good example of something being tolerated in one society that would be considered horrifically evil in another.

Look at the justice system in countries that follow fundamental muslim teachings. We wouldn't consider amputations to be anything but barbaric and evil, yet it's justice in some places.

For milder examples just examine the different attitudes in our own society regarding sex...some people believe that any sex between two people who aren't married to each other is "wrong"...some members of the lunatic fringe believe otherwise. :D

Originally posted by Blob
Excellent point, and I agree nagarjuna.

Not according to the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That is truly ammo for my JW visitation in a couple of weeks time.

Good job Blob

God created him and He gave him a freewill as He did for everyone else. When Satan rebelled against God, He chose to rebel against Him. The third of the angels that sided with Satan, they chose to side with him. If God gave Satan (and assumedly the other angels) freewill Then what makes humans so special? Wouldn't you say that angels more closely resemble god (in his image) than humans? The angles at least had knowledge, something humans were eternally punished for aquiring.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
That is truly ammo for my JW visitation in a couple of weeks time.

Good job Blob You're welcome! :)

BUT always be careful with JWs - remember they rewrote the bible for themselves so always check a verse on the watchtower website before hitting them with it. Here's what the version they'll be using says:

Isaiah 45:7 Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.

Evil becomes calamity!

http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm

If God gave Satan (and assumedly the other angels) freewill Then what makes humans so special? Wouldn't you say that angels more closely resemble god (in his image) than humans? The angles at least had knowledge, something humans were eternally punished for aquiring.

Who's to say angels/demons and humans aren't one in the same? ;)

I'm not too familiar with Indian infanticide, but that's a good example of something being tolerated in one society that would be considered horrifically evil in another.

If they have more than 2 girls, they kill them. Economic reasons (wedding dowries, less labor, in retirement the boys take care of them, and more clothes for the girls, etc) come into play, but the main reason is because they cannot support others and need boys. the males take care of the parents in old age and light the funeral pyres (if one spouse dies, the other takes themselves with them, very rare to find widowers over there) to go to moshka( Buddha called it Nirvana when he broke away from hinduism) or attain a better form of life in reincarnation.

For milder examples just examine the different attitudes in our own society regarding sex...some people believe that any sex between two people who aren't married to each other is "wrong"...some members of the lunatic fringe believe otherwise

It can get extreme, in countries such as The Netherlands and Japan there is no age of consent (correct me if i am wrong, but i am pretty sure that is the case). 40 year old can do a 15 year old and its not pedophilia. *shudders*

Look at the justice system in countries that follow fundamental muslim teachings. We wouldn't consider amputations to be anything but barbaric and evil, yet it's justice in some places.

There are stories from Yemen of little boys on death row, eletrocution (not death, just torture), dismemberment, and brutal prisons without food, beds, and full of roughhousing.
:mad:

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
If God gave Satan (and assumedly the other angels) freewill Then what makes humans so special? Wouldn't you say that angels more closely resemble god (in his image) than humans? The angles at least had knowledge, something humans were eternally punished for aquiring.
Not only were we not given or allowed to acquire the knowledge of the angels, but we were endowed with free will to do evil that God Himself appears not to have. For isn't God partly defined as perfect goodness, and doesn't this mean that He cannot do evil because it would impossibly contradict His essential and immutable nature?

Where is the fairness in praising God for doing good when He cannot, by His very nature, do evil, and in condemning human beings for doing evil because of their incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil?

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Where is the fairness in praising God for being good when he cannot, by his very nature, do otherwise, and in condemning human beings for doing evil when they cannot do otherwise because of their incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil? Very well put it. I never thought of it quite like that.

Originally posted by Blob
You're welcome! :)

BUT always be careful with JWs - remember they rewrote the bible for themselves so always check a verse on the watchtower website before hitting them with it. Here's what the version they'll be using says:

Isaiah 45:7 Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.

Evil becomes calamity!

http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm

Hang on... You mean to say that they took the King James Bible, completely rewrote the word Jehovah into as many places as possible... cheeky fu*king gits.

Originally posted by Blob


Not according to the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Blob, true God did create everything including the devil and demons, but He did not perpetuate evil. That scriptures tells us that He created everything, but it's when the devil and 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God(Isaiah14:12 and Revelation12:4) that evil came into effect. Satan is the one who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden, He is the temtor behind sin. Quite often in the bible, we are told to do good and avoid doing evil, therefore God hates evil and loves what is good. Yes, He allowed it to enter into the world, but He is not evil nor does He want people to do evil. In the opriginal post, it was said that your doing the will of God if you do good or evil, which is not true. God tells us to abhor what is evil and cleave to what is good(Romans12:9). He tells us to have no fellowship with the unfrutifl works of darkness, but rather reprove them(Ephesians5:11).

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
If God gave Satan (and assumedly the other angels) freewill Then what makes humans so special? Wouldn't you say that angels more closely resemble god (in his image) than humans? The angles at least had knowledge, something humans were eternally punished for aquiring.
The angels that sided with Satan in his rebellion against God had no temptor, we do. The fact that they had knowledge from the get go, made them more accountable.

The fact that we have free will to choose good or evil is evidence enough to show He is love and kindness.

God is suppossed to be omnipotent. By setting a series of events into action in which evil occurs, is the perpetuation there of.

God hates evil

But hate is such an evil trait ;)
I think the term you are searching for is discourages or "frowns upon"

God is suppossed to be omnipotent. By setting a series of events into action in which evil occurs, is the perpetuation there of.

If i plant a seed, then it grows into a tree and is knocked over onto my neighbors house, i am not accountable for that.

Originally posted by nagarjuna

Where is the fairness in praising God for doing good when he cannot, by his very nature, do evil, and in condemning human beings for doing evil when they cannot do good because of their incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil?

Poeple do have the choice to do good. If you don't do what is right, it is because you choose not to. About condemining human beings, God does not condemne people, people condemn themselves. God is full of grace and mercy, and freely forgives anyone if they trunt o HIm and repent, but if they refuse, it's not because of God, it's their own freewill of choice to reject Him and His righteousness.

What if God is just an attention whore?

Satan came from the angels, in essence rejecting god as incompetant (in the sin of Pride).

So God created man but made him a half-wit without proper knowledge. Man would just as likely commit acts of evil as well as good but would always thank god for the nice garden. What is Freewill without the knowledge to use it accordingly? Slavery through ignorence. Satan introduced knowledge. Satans the one who made humans more than just pets. Satan is the one who actually bestowed free will upon humans.

If i plant a seed, then it grows into a tree and is knocked over onto my neighbors house, i am not accountable for that. You are if you control the whole universe and knew at the time of planting that would happen.
:D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
[B]I believe that you and I refer to certain actions as "good" and others as "bad" because we've been taught to think that way.

We've been taught to think that way because it's the truth. Certain actions are good and certain actions are bad. Also, out own concience can tell us that certain things are worng. Concience is the eternal moniter that God placed in our hearts so that we have a sense of right and wrong.

You speak of these ideas not being man-made, when obviously these ideas are man-made. If they weren't man-made ideas, if they somehow came to us from some outside source, why do different societies have different definitions of "good" and "bad"?

If everyone in any society was following Jesus who is of righteousness and truth, then we wouldn't have all that. Mankind has made their own ideas about what is right and worng, but that doesn't make good and evil man made. Good is still good and evil is still evil regardless of what anyone makes things out to be.

The examples that you listed of the "bad" things, aren't bad because the actions are inherently evil, they are bad because of their negative impact on an orderly society.

Exaclty! Your conscience can tell that those things are bad. They hurt others, they're against the will of God and living in sin will eventually hurt yourself.

If you look at stealing as an example, the act of stealing is a rather neutral one in terms of its immediate effect. What I mean is, that if I steal from you, that act may harm you greatly, but it may give me great benefit.

Stealing is not neutral, it is bad. Even though you gain, someone else loses. besides, people who cheat others and gain out of dishonesty are usually selfish, greedy, discontent people that don't care about doing right or wrong. Wanting to gain from someone else's losses is a corrupt way of thinking.

The harm from stealing is the damage it does to social order and harmony.

That is correct. Again, it is wrong to steal because of what your doing to the other person. if it was considered okay to steal, then society would be more messed up than it is now.

There is also the point Blob made that these actions are evil or bad only when committed for evil or bad reasons...the actions themselves carry no inherent bias one way or the other.

Most of the time when you see people stealing, they are doing it for a bad reason. Many business people look for ways to try and scam customers out of greed and discontentment. They want more money and now matter how much they make, they will still want more. Insurance companies rip people off out of greed. Many car salesmen lie to people out of greed. Some of the wealthiest people are some of the most dishonest, crooked people you could ever meet.

There are people who will scam the system because they are too lazy to work. Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone who has even been on the system in some way is scamming the system, but there are people who are.

Many poeple who commit burgleries, robberies, shoplifitng, fraud, etc, are doing it to suppost an expensive addiction such as drugs, alchol, gambling. They are harming others so they can waste their lives away. There is nothing good about that.

You are if you control the whole universe and knew at the time of planting that would happen.

He may have set into motion the events to trigger what happened (planting the seed), but did not control it along the way, it grew on its own and had free will.

heh...trees don't have free will, or do they....

god made the wind that blew the tree, the dirt that let loose and the very tree itself in being planted. it also know the past present and future. how is it not responsible for anything and everything that occurs?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
God is suppossed to be omnipotent. By setting a series of events into action in which evil occurs, is the perpetuation there of.

God set the universe into motion, but He did not set evil into motion. man through yielding to temptation does. God wants us to do good, but won't force us to. He never made us to be a bunch of machines that only operate the way we've been programmed to. He wants us to choose to love and serve HIm and do right and avoid doing evil. Satan wants the opposite. Satan wants man to end up in hell for eternity. It even bothers the devil and his fallen angels to see people heirs of the Heaven. This world is filled with evil simply because people allow the world to be that way by their own freewill of choice. Many choose to do evil and that is why evil is in motion.

Originally posted by the J Man
The angels that sided with Satan in his rebellion against God had no temptor, we do. The fact that they had knowledge from the get go, made them more accountable.
Didn't Satan and the angels who joined him know enough to realize that they couldn't possibly prevail against Almighty God? If not, then wasn't even their knowledge limited to some degree? If they did know that their rebellion was hopeless, what but exculpating insanity would motivate them to embark on a course of action that would certainly lead to eternal damnation?

Originally posted by the J Man

but if they refuse, it's not because of God, it's their own freewill of choice to reject Him and His righteousness.
Why didn't God not allow people to commit the evil of refusing Him and His righteousness?

Originally posted by the J Man

He never made us to be a bunch of machines that only operate the way we've been programmed to.
Couldn't a psychologist--a scientist who studies the CAUSES of human mental phenomena and behavior--make a powerful case to the contrary by arguing that all human behavior is essentially caused or "programmed" by a complex interaction of conscious and unconscious biological, psychological, social, and cultural factors so that there is no free will but only determined will?

Why didn't God not allow people to commit the evil of refusing Him and His righteousness?

Because He gave free will, and since He is the epitomy of all that is loving and kind, it would make sense.
To not allow us to be ourselves and think for ourselves is a severe restriction and not kind, but hurtful.

Originally posted by the J Man
We've been taught to think that way because it's the truth. Certain actions are good and certain actions are bad.

The point is JMan that everyone hasn't been taught the same things...the things you call truth...I believe celebrating birthdays is fine, while others believe it's not.


Also, out own concience can tell us that certain things are worng. Concience is the eternal moniter that God placed in our hearts so that we have a sense of right and wrong.

We are taught our conscience...we aren't born with it.


If everyone in any society was following Jesus who is of righteousness and truth, then we wouldn't have all that. Mankind has made their own ideas about what is right and worng, but that doesn't make good and evil man made. Good is still good and evil is still evil regardless of what anyone makes things out to be.

Now you're babbling...obviously you don't know what these constants are...


Stealing is not neutral, it is bad.

So if I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, that's just as wrong as if I steal money to get rich...


Even though you gain, someone else loses. besides, people who cheat others and gain out of dishonesty are usually selfish, greedy, discontent people that don't care about doing right or wrong. Wanting to gain from someone else's losses is a corrupt way of thinking.

Try to follow the discussion JMan...


Most of the time when you see people stealing, they are doing it for a bad reason.

True...but that's not what we're talking about....

Originally posted by Evakian
Why didn't God not allow people to commit the evil of refusing Him and His righteousness?
Because He gave free will, and since He is the epitomy of all that is loving and kind, it would make sense.
To not allow us to be ourselves and think for ourselves is a severe restriction and not kind, but hurtful.
Does it hurt God not to have the free will to do evil? If so, how? If not, why would it hurt us to have the same limitation on our free will that God has on His?

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Does it hurt God not to have the free will to do evil? If so, how? If not, why would it hurt us to have the same limitation on our free will that God has on His?

You seem to have missed the train...we have free will because He loved us and gave it to us because of that love.

Originally posted by Evakian
You seem to have missed the train...we have free will because He loved us and gave it to us because of that love.
I have ridden this "train" from its outset, and earlier posts of mine comprise some of its cars. In one of them, prior to the one to which you replied, I asked how a God who is defined as perfectly good could have the free will to do evil. It would seem that He cannot fulfill His inherent goodness and do evil. Therefore, as I asked in the post to which you replied, if God is not harmed by His inability to exercise His free will to do evil, why should human beings be harmed by this same inability? Therefore, why wouldn't God gave us the same kind of free will to choose only good with which HE is endowed?

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Didn't Satan and the angels who joined him know enough to realize that they couldn't possibly prevail against Almighty God? If not, then wasn't even their knowledge limited to some degree? If they did know that their rebellion was hopeless, what but exculpating insanity would motivate them to embark on a course of action that would certainly lead to eternal damnation?

Only God is omnisiscient(all-knowing). True, angelic beings have greater knowledge than us, but they do not know everything.

What you are asking indeed is a very good question. Why would they be foolish enough to rebel against God knowing they could never win. That would be like being in a very properous country where people are very well off in all ways of life, having a excellent president to rule that country who is fair and just in his ways, then one of his star generals not being satisfied with his high position but in pride wants to be president himself, so h gathers whoever will follow him and rebels, thus being expelled from that nations to settle for barren land. In his pride, he rebels because he wants "top position" and doesn't want to settle form 'one of the top posiitons," he ends up getting top position of his own kigdom, but it's on barren land.


That is sort of like what Satan did. He wanted top position, he wasn't satisifed with being a chief angel, so out of his pride, he rebelled against God, got 1/3 of the other angels to join him in rebellion against God despute the consequnces. Ture, that is pure foolishness. Makes me wonder how Satan and those other angels could be so foolish, but reality is reality. That is what happened. In the end, Satan and his demons will pay the ultimate consequnce being thrown into the eternal lake of fire(Revelation20:10).

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Why didn't God not allow people to commit the evil of refusing Him and His righteousness?

God wants us to make a willing choice to choose between doing right or wrong. He wants us to make a willing choice to love hIm and accept Him into our hearts, or reject Him. He wants us to make a willing choice as to whether we will live for righteousness or wickedness.

Originally posted by the J Man
Only God is omnisiscient(all-knowing). True, angelic beings have greater knowledge than us, but they do not know everything.


So why did God make Satan an angel if he knew he would rebel?

Either Satan didn't have free will, or God is not omniscient...take your pick.

He may have known he would rebel, but He gave lucifer free will out of love, besides, things can always be altered when you know the future. The fact that they weren't is lucifer's fault and loss. Lucifer has free will and God is omniscient.

Originally posted by the J Man
Makes me wonder how Satan and those other angels could be so foolish, but reality is reality. That is what happened. In the end, Satan and his demons will pay the ultimate consequnce being thrown into the eternal lake of fire(Revelation20:10).
Wouldn't a real Satan and his real co-conspirators still know enough, with their supernatural intelligence and direct acquaintance with God, to realize that their quest to overthrow Almighty God was certainly doomed? Therefore, doesn't it seem exceedingly likely that the story of Satan's rebellion is a myth rather than of an actual event?

Originally posted by the J Man
God wants us to make a willing choice to choose between doing right or wrong. He wants us to make a willing choice to love hIm and accept Him into our hearts, or reject Him. He wants us to make a willing choice as to whether we will live for righteousness or wickedness.
This continues to ignore the question I have posed previously: Why would a supremely loving and fair God require us flawed creatures with extremely limited knowledge to make a choice between good and evil that even He is incapable of making because of his ability to choose only good? Moreover, why would he impose such momentous consequences upon our choice?

why would he impose such momentous consequences upon our choice?

because we are free to make the choice, we take consequence for our actions good or bad.

Why would a supremely loving and fair God require us flawed creatures with extremely limited knowledge to make a choice between good and evil that even He is incapable of making because of his ability to choose only good?

Why does the general order troops into battle even though he personally does not have to fight?


We are given the choice to prove our worth and want.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
This continues to ignore the question I have posed previously: Why would a supremely loving and fair God require us flawed creatures with extremely limited knowledge to make a choice between good and evil that even He is incapable of making because of his ability to choose only good? Moreover, why would he impose such momentous consequences upon our choice?

If someone is full of love and chooses not to do evil that does not make them incapable of choosing to do evil. If I love my child and I am a balanced human being I will not harm my child I will love and protect them. I still have the ability to do evil, I choose not to. Why is God different? If he is ultimate love and goodness but with a will, He chooses good.

The parallel is the same.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Wouldn't a real Satan and his real co-conspirators still know enough, with their supernatural intelligence and direct acquaintance with God, to realize that their quest to overthrow Almighty God was certainly doomed? Therefore, doesn't it seem exceedingly likely that the story of Satan's rebellion is a myth rather than of an actual event?

It may well be a myth to explain the existence of pain and suffering. (Evil) And as such perhaps there is no embodiment of evil.

As for the myth, he was said to have been jealous of God and desirous of ultimate control. If he possessed such emotions it is not such a stretch to imagine that they could over-ride his logical certainty that he could not succeed.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Couldn't a psychologist--a scientist who studies the CAUSES of human mental phenomena and behavior--make a powerful case to the contrary by arguing that all human behavior is essentially caused or "programmed" by a complex interaction of conscious and unconscious biological, psychological, social, and cultural factors so that there is no free will but only determined will?

I think it could be argued that certain behaviours are more likely to happen given certain circumstances. But human nature is not 100% predicatable because human beings are more than the sum of their parts.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
If God gave Satan (and assumedly the other angels) freewill Then what makes humans so special? Wouldn't you say that angels more closely resemble god (in his image) than humans? The angles at least had knowledge, something humans were eternally punished for aquiring.

The angels do not possess "soul".

Originally posted by ~Sal~
If someone is full of love and chooses not to do evil that does not make them incapable of choosing to do evil. If I love my child and I am a balanced human being I will not harm my child I will love and protect them. I still have the ability to do evil, I choose not to. Why is God different? If he is ultimate love and goodness but with a will, He chooses good.

The parallel is the same.
Does a human being who feels only love for his child and is completely "balanced" truly have the capacity to willingly harm his child? Or could he willingly do harm only if his will were compromised by a lack of love or "balance"? Does a God who is defined as inherently pure goodness truly have the capacity to willingly do evil? Or could He willingly do evil only if His will were compromised by a lack of goodness? Isn't saying that a God defined as pure goodness could do evil tantamount to saying that a square can be a circle, or that black can be white?

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Where is the fairness in praising God for doing good when he cannot, by his very nature, do evil, and in condemning human beings for doing evil when they cannot do good because of their incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil?

Who says we can not do good because of our incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil. You quote Mother Theresa did she not do good in spite of being human. Did she not rise above the squalor and evil to create waves of positive energy which can still be felt today even after her death?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
The angels do not possess "soul".
Is this not because instead of "possessing" souls, they ARE essentially disembodied souls, and wouldn't this make them closer in nature to God than to embodied human beings?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Who says we can not do good because of our incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil. You quote Mother Theresa did she not do good in spite of being human. Did she not rise above the squalor and evil to create waves of positive energy which can still be felt today even after her death?
Your point is well taken. I rephrase my question as follows:

Where is the fairness in praising God for doing good when He cannot, by His very nature, do evil, and in condemning human beings for doing evil because of their incomplete knowledge and natural vulnerability to the corruptions of evil?

Originally posted by ~Sal~

As for the myth, he was said to have been jealous of God and desirous of ultimate control. If he possessed such emotions it is not such a stretch to imagine that they could over-ride his logical certainty that he could not succeed.
Would this not imply that his emotions overrode the freedom of his will?

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Does a human being who feels only love for his child and is completely "balanced" truly have the capacity to willingly harm his child? Or could he willingly do harm only if his will were compromised by a lack of love or "balance"?

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I was afraid you would venture into that territory. I used the term "balanced" and "love" loosely to distinguish between those I felt most likely not to harm their child as opposed to those who might. But there are also boundary issues that come into play. And they are also paramont within the individual to the development of love and the capability to be balanced.

No I do not believe that a person who is completely balanced, who loves their child, and has good boundaries could or would ever willingly harm their child. No. Something would have to seriously go awry within their brain. So some complete chemical confusion.
Does a God who is defined as inherently pure goodness truly have the capacity to willingly do evil?

No


Isn't saying that a God defined as pure goodness could do evil tantamount to saying that a square can be a circle, or that black can be white?

Yes

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I think it could be argued that certain behaviours are more likely to happen given certain circumstances. But human nature is not 100% predicatable because human beings are more than the sum of their parts.
The weather is not 100% predictable. But does this mean that it isn't 100% determined, even if its determining causes are too complex for us to know well enough to make perfect predictions? Can't the same be said for human behavior?

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Is this not because instead of "possessing" souls, they ARE essentially disembodied souls, and wouldn't this make them closer in nature to God than to embodied human beings? No I do not believe them to be disembodied souls. Soul is the distinguishing factor between angel and human. Humans alone possess soul. Angels are an entity unto themselves. Nor are they closer in nature to God than human beings for we are created in His likeness.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Would this not imply that his emotions overrode the freedom of his will?
No... his emotions were a result of his free will.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
The weather is not 100% predictable. But does this mean that it isn't 100% determined, even if its determining causes are too complex for us to know well enough to make perfect predictions? Can't the same be said for human behavior?

I do not believe so. A storms path may not be 100% predictabe but should it shift course it can later be determined what forces caused it to shift. It did not shift course with forethought it is totally at the mercy of outside forces.

We are not because we have the ability to think and choose an action. We can learn and retain that learning and store it as knowledge. Knowledge affects decisions. Knowledge is processed and stored within and can be used to determine courses of action when outside events occur.

Originally posted by Evakian
why would he impose such momentous consequences upon our choice?

because we are free to make the choice, we take consequence for our actions good or bad.

Why would a supremely loving and fair God require us flawed creatures with extremely limited knowledge to make a choice between good and evil that even He is incapable of making because of his ability to choose only good?

Why does the general order troops into battle even though he personally does not have to fight?


We are given the choice to prove our worth and want.
Is eternal bliss or torment a "consequence" commensurate with the merits or demerits of the choices we make during this ephemeral life? That is, does what we do in this cosmic eyeblink of a lifetime make us worthy of either heaven or hell?

What would we think of a general who has either never entered the same kinds of battles he's ordering his men into, or wouldn't enter them even if he needed to? In other words, what would we think of a general or a God who commands his men or creations to do what he either hasn't done, won't do, or can't do?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I do not believe so. A storms path may not be 100% predictabe but should it shift course it can later be determined what forces caused it to shift. It did not shift course with forethought it is totally at the mercy of outside forces.

We are not because we have the ability to think and choose an action. We can learn and retain that learning and store it as knowledge. Knowledge affects decisions. Knowledge is processed and stored within and can be used to determine courses of action when outside events occur.
Is it not theoretically possible to discern, after the fact, the "forces" or factors that caused any human behavior, even if that behavior couldn't be predicted in advance? How does our capacity to think, learn, and choose establish that our thoughts, knowledge, and choices are not inevitably shaped or determined by a complex web of interacting conscious and unconscious biological, psychological, social, and cultural factors?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
No... his emotions were a result of his free will.
Can one rationally choose to let emotion override reason? If so, how? If not, how are this choice and resulting choices free rather than inevitable products of irrational emotion?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
No I do not believe them to be disembodied souls. Soul is the distinguishing factor between angel and human. Humans alone possess soul. Angels are an entity unto themselves. Nor are they closer in nature to God than human beings for we are created in His likeness.
What is the practical difference between a human soul and an angel? That is, what can a human soul do that an angel cannot that brings it closer to God's nature and power than is an angel?

Ive said it before and i'll say it again. Omnipotence denies Free Will. If got is the ALL POWERFUL BEING, then he knows absolutely EVERYTHING. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will ever happen. God knows exactly what we are going to do.

Adam and Eve were set up. God gave them the tree, but told them not to eat the fruit. But, he also gave humans curiosity. AND, he also let Satan into the Garden to ENCOURAGE them. God was no dummy.

"A rock thrown in the air thinks it can land anywhere it chooses." --Spinoza

Let us assume for a minute that the rock has consiousness and believes it has free will. It is then thrown into the air by a machine that knows every variable and can predict the exact spot at which the rock will land. Now the rock doesn't know this, yet it chooses to accept the predestined landing spot under the falacy that it actually chose to land there.

Don't you see? THERE ARE NO CHOICES!

Originally posted by nagarjuna
What is the practical difference between a human soul and an angel? That is, what can a human soul do that an angel cannot that brings it closer to God's nature and power than is an angel?

Feel

Adam and Eve were set up. God gave them the tree, but told them not to eat the fruit. But, he also gave humans curiosity. AND, he also let Satan into the Garden to ENCOURAGE them. God was no dummy.

Aside from the fact this is a fictional story...Satan ended up in the garden for his decisions in the presence of God, the humans made the choice, Satan may have tempted them, but they could have opted not to.

Don't you see? THERE ARE NO CHOICES!

Not true, see i can decide to call you a f***tard if i want ;)

Originally posted by Evakian
Don't you see? THERE ARE NO CHOICES!

Not true, see i can decide to call you a f***tard if i want ;)

You stole my word :(

Originally posted by Evil Homer



Don't you see? THERE ARE NO CHOICES! [/B]

We make chocies everyday. Our choices whether be good or bad effect the outcome of our lives. Adam and Eve had a chocie to give into temptation or not. Bot of them put the blame elsewhere when they should have tooken responsiblity for their own actions. If you read Genesis3:11-13, you can see that Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent(the devil). God didn;t buy into that because they had an accoutanility for their own actions. Many people focus the blame in or society towards someone else, but they don't take responsiblity for themsleves. In Mattew4:17, Jesus said to the people "repent for the kigdom of Heaven is at hand." They obviosuly have freewill to choose to repent of sin and turn and follow Jesus or Jesus would not have said that to them. In Acts8:22, Peter warns Simon to repent of thy wickedness. Simon having freewill, chose to ge this heart right with God(vs.24). Romans12:9 tells us to abhor what is evil and cleave to what is good. Again, we have a choice to obey that or not. Many in this world do the opposite. In In Mark5:25-34, the woman who had an issue of blood for 12 years came to Jesus for healing. She had the choice to come to him to receive healing. Because she made the right choice and came to Jesus to be healed, she received her healing and was made whole.

Originally posted by Evakian
Adam and Eve were set up. God gave them the tree, but told them not to eat the fruit. But, he also gave humans curiosity. AND, he also let Satan into the Garden to ENCOURAGE them. God was no dummy.

Aside from the fact this is a fictional story...Satan ended up in the garden for his decisions in the presence of God, the humans made the choice, Satan may have tempted them, but they could have opted not to.

Yes but don’t you see, God knew all along that Adam and Eve would choose the fruit thus forcing them into their new life. He knew this when he created them and before, thus he knew before he created them that it was to be.

And just for the record... how in the hell does something think like that if it knows what has, is and will happen. Everything has already happened to God thus he no longer has control over any of it for if he were to change something, which would have already been predestined and thus he wasn’t changing anything, he was merely following what was already predestined by him to happen.

But yes back to the point. If we are to believe the Bible then God displays most of the characteristics of a slightly immoral scientist. Not someone I want to worship or praise.

Originally posted by the J Man
We make chocies everyday.
Yes, we do. But so do computers programmed to make the choices they do. How are we any different in principle?

Originally posted by the J Man
We make chocies everyday. Our choices whether be good or bad effect the outcome of our lives. Adam and Eve had a chocie to give into temptation or not.

Explain how... (If God knew what they were going to do) did they have a choice in what they did. The rock point above is a good example.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
You stole my word :(

Since when can an individual own a particular word?

Is cheese taken?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Explain how... (If God knew what they were going to do) did they have a choice in what they did. The rock point above is a good example.

SO WHAT IF HE KNEW?!?!?! They had the choice to eat the apple or not eat the apple and they, well Eve, who then convinced Adam out of love for her, to eat the apple.
God's omniscince and knowledge of all does not detract from the fact they made the decision to disobey Him. That argument is irrelevent.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Yes, we do. But so do computers programmed to make the choices they do. How are we any different in principle?

A computer functions and computes mathematically off of the input commands. There is no conscience choice in a computer, they do what they are made to do with the input data given.

Originally posted by Evakian
Since when can an individual own a particular word?

Is cheese taken?

Its called Patents?

Originally posted by Evakian
SO WHAT IF HE KNEW?!?!?! They had the choice to eat the apple or not eat the apple and they, well Eve, who then convinced Adam out of love for her, to eat the apple.
God's omniscince and knowledge of all does not detract from the fact they made the decision to disobey Him. That argument is irrelevent.

Ok then...

God made Eve knowing full well she would eat the Apple so how is that free choice? He deliberatly made her with the intention of her eating the Apple!

You cant dispute this because he knew she would eat the apple when he made her.

You can't copyright words and make people pay royalties, thats ridiculous.

Characters or places in a book or movie can be passed off and trademarked but that is for plagiarism purposes, people can still say the term anyway they like

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Explain how... (If God knew what they were going to do) did they have a choice in what they did. The rock point above is a good example.

Sometimes, you can predict what someone is going to do before they even do it. They still have a freewill of choice though. You didn't make them do it, they chose to.

People ask how can God know the future if it hasn't already happened yet. How can God know what is going to happen before it happens?

In eternity, your outside of time. God is above time and can see on through it. Let's say there was this really long paarade. From where you are standing, you are currently at where the middle of the parade is. You can;t see the beginning because it has long passed. You can't see the end because it is still on it's way. But, if you were in a helicopter way into the sky, you could see from the beginning right down to the end even the though you were above where the middle of the parade is. God can see from the beghinning right dow to the end even thoug the end hasn't come to pass yet.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Yes, we do. But so do computers programmed to make the choices they do. How are we any different in principle?

Yes, computers are programmed. People have a mind, will and emotions. Computers can't think for themselves, they do what they've been programmed to do. We make our own choices.

Originally posted by the J Man
Sometimes, you can predict what someone is going to do before they even do it. They still have a freewill of choice though. You didn't make them do it, they chose to.

People ask how can God know the future if it hasn't already happened yet. How can God know what is going to happen before it happens?

In eternity, your outside of time. God is above time and can see on through it. Let's say there was this really long paarade. From where you are standing, you are currently at where the middle of the parade is. You can;t see the beginning because it has long passed. You can't see the end because it is still on it's way. But, if you were in a helicopter way into the sky, you could see from the beginning right down to the end even the though you were above where the middle of the parade is. God can see from the beghinning right dow to the end even thoug the end hasn't come to pass yet.
Thus, under this model, no free will, because what we do has been predestined.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Thus, under this model, no free will, because what we do has been predestined.

It hasn't been predestined because you choose to do as you choose to do. Your going to make choices in your everyday life whether be good ones or bad ones.

Originally posted by the J Man
It hasn't been predestined because you choose to do as you choose to do. Your going to make choices in your everyday life whether be good ones or bad ones.
How am I choosing? It's obviously already laid out if God can see it all. So I'm just following the pattern that God laid down. That's not choice.

Perhaps your path is predestined, but constantly changes based upon your choices. That would mix destiny and free will, but it makes sense.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Is it not theoretically possible to discern, after the fact, the "forces" or factors that caused any human behavior, even if that behavior couldn't be predicted in advance?

Would you not agree that in many, many cases, theory and practice part ways?

How does our capacity to think, learn, and choose establish that our thoughts, knowledge, and choices are not inevitably shaped or determined by a complex web of interacting conscious and unconscious biological, psychological, social, and cultural factors? Why can't our capacity to think, learn, and choose combined with our conscious and unconscious bilogical, psychological, social and cultural factors coexist with freewill? At a human level…given the emotion of love, and good boundaries a balanced individual will respond to their child in the same way regardless of their biological, psychological, social or cultural factors. We are a complex.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
Can one rationally choose to let emotion override reason?

My first response would be no. But then as human beings we allow emotion to override reason daily. An example would be falling in love with another human. It is not rational to put oneself in a position of danger where there is known possibility for hurt. Yet we choose to do so when we choose to love another.


If not, how are this choice and resulting choices free rather than inevitable products of irrational emotion?

I would say free because it was a rational choice with (in this case) known possible outcomes and one allowed ones emotion to guide one.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
What is the practical difference between a human soul and an angel? That is, what can a human soul do that an angel cannot that brings it closer to God's nature and power than is an angel?

A human soul inhabits or has inhabited a body.

An angel is spirit and always has been and will be.

Both live forever but a human soul can evolve and an angel is static… God’s messenger.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
A human soul inhabits or has inhabited a body.

An angel is spirit and always has been and will be.

Both live forever but a human soul can evolve and an angel is static… God’s messenger.

Sheesh sal, pwning the thread. This post was pretty good. Unfortunately your 'can evolve' statement was what i was going to use.

God made Eve knowing full well she would eat the Apple so how is that free choice? He deliberatly made her with the intention of her eating the Apple!

[b]You cant dispute this because he knew she would eat the apple when he made her.

I can and will dispute it :cool:
The woman was still given choice, why do i have to repeat myself that it does not affect that even if God knew.
With our limited abilities and innocence it is impossible to comprehend how the Almighty functions and His motivations behind his actions.
God did not make her with the intention of eating the apple, He made her knowing she would have to make the choice, even if He knew the choice, she was unaware at every level and therefore made the choice out of freewill.
It is a hopeless effort to this, i hate to rehash the old saying because it shows you submit to failure of misunderstanding, but there is no way to understand it...yet. "The Lord works in mysterious ways"

Originally posted by Evakian
Perhaps your path is predestined, but constantly changes based upon your choices. That would mix destiny and free will, but it makes sense.

Thats a contradiction in terms.

If my path is predestined then It cant constantly be changing at all since I will always be doing exactly what God knew Id be doing and since he made us.. doing what he programmed us to do.

This conversation just makes it more clear to me that man wrote the Bible with no help from any God. Total contradictions blindly followed because they wanted to believe in something fantastical.

Evak go to infidelguy.net and try some of this out on there, see how your "We all have choices, but God knows what they are" theory lasts before being ripped to pieces.

Originally posted by Evakian
With our limited abilities and innocence it is impossible to comprehend how the Almighty functions and His motivations behind his actions.

So you can't know what God wants or how he thinks due to the limited abilities inherent in all humans...makes sense.


God did not make her with the intention of eating the apple, He made her knowing she would have to make the choice, even if He knew the choice, she was unaware at every level and therefore made the choice out of freewill.


Sorry...you already stated you don't know what God wants or how he thinks, yet here you are calmly claiming to be privy to his/her reasoning.

When people say "the Lord works in mysterious ways" that's usually a polite way of saying "You don't understand God, and you can't, but I do". Nice try Evak.

Originally posted by Evakian
A computer functions and computes mathematically off of the input commands. There is no conscience choice in a computer, they do what they are made to do with the input data given.
How are human choices fundamentally different except in the complexity of the interaction of our neurophysiological "hardware" and psychological, social, and cultural "software."? How is our "conscious choice" not determined by this interaction of these factors?

Originally posted by the J Man
Sometimes, you can predict what someone is going to do before they even do it. They still have a freewill of choice though. You didn't make them do it, they chose to.
Correctly predicting what they will do may not make them do it, but it may reflect the fact that you know them so well that you know that a given set of circumstances will determine that they will act in a given manner. Thus, they do not have "freewill of choice." They choose what they must under the circumstances. For example, to take a simplified case, if you know that Mary absolutely loves chocolate ice cream and absolutely hates vanilla ice cream, and you offer her a choice between the two, you can predict, with a very high degree of confidence, that she's going to choose chocolate. Her extreme love of chocolate and extreme aversion to vanilla determines that her choice will be chocolate. Though she's allowed to choose between two options, that choice is not truly "free," given her likes and dislikes.