I have seen NO religious leaders striding bravely through the shimmering Texas heat in an effort to stem the flow of innocent blood.

Where are the peace-loving Christians who should be speaking out on behalf of Jesus Christ - who minced no words when it came to peace and love and mercy?

Why do these so called Good Samaritans when coming accross war protesters cream insults and cuss words or cross to the other side of the street and skitter by fearfully, when others are speaking out against violence and war.

Peace, love and mercy should be expected of christians yet they are the very people exspousing the virtuees of this war and the continuation of blood and death.

Is this just another practice in their long list of hypocracies? Say one thing and do another. Preach peace and support war. Speak of love yet sanction hatred, violence and war.

Echo,

Sadly, I do not know why there are so many Christians out there who are throwing there support behind the bloodshed in Iraq...and behind Bush.

But I have came to notice, especially around here (were talking deeply devout bible country) they are moving away from support fo Bush.

I know a person that has never voted until this past one, he is 38. The only reason he voted is because he is a born again quess who he voted for, Bushy. His whole idea of the vote was because Bush claimed to be a good Christian, no wonder the US is going down hill. I don't care who someone votes for but we really need to slap the morons up side the head, voting for someone because they have nice hair white teeth or claim to be something{at the right time}, is ignorant.

Originally posted by Echo2
I have seen NO religious leaders striding bravely through the shimmering Texas heat in an effort to stem the flow of innocent blood. Actually, I think Al Sharpton went down there.

Originally posted by Jester
Actually, I think Al Sharpton went down there.

Perhaps, but without a brave stride, its just not worth it.

Originally posted by Echo2
I have seen NO religious leaders striding bravely through the shimmering Texas heat in an effort to stem the flow of innocent blood.

Where are the peace-loving Christians who should be speaking out on behalf of Jesus Christ - who minced no words when it came to peace and love and mercy?

Why do these so called Good Samaritans when coming accross war protesters cream insults and cuss words or cross to the other side of the street and skitter by fearfully, when others are speaking out against violence and war.

Peace, love and mercy should be expected of christians yet they are the very people exspousing the virtuees of this war and the continuation of blood and death.

Is this just another practice in their long list of hypocracies? Say one thing and do another. Preach peace and support war. Speak of love yet sanction hatred, violence and war.

Echo, I don't know too many christians that crea insults and cuss words towards those who speak out against war or towrads anyone. Why do christians get blamed for everything? There are people both christian and non-christian who agree with the war and who disagree with it, but the vast majority of christians certainly wouldn't do what you claim they are doing. I don't know too many christians who sanction hatred.

Originally posted by mad dog
I know a person that has never voted until this past one, he is 38. The only reason he voted is because he is a born again quess who he voted for, Bushy. His whole idea of the vote was because Bush claimed to be a good Christian, no wonder the US is going down hill. I don't care who someone votes for but we really need to slap the morons up side the head, voting for someone because they have nice hair white teeth or claim to be something{at the right time}, is ignorant.

Yes a lot of people are deceived and they think Goerge Bush is a christian.

My point was don't just give a vote because someone said they are Christain, this is how the witch hunts started in Mass. Bush may be Christian, SO WHAT. Is he the best man for the job, how would someone blinded by a faith know? I know a person who would meet people and say well they're good folk they're Catholic. Some of our biggest monster in history were Catholic, I call this blinded by faith.

I would say that there are Christians of various degrees of faith.
Many are Christian that are not devout.
Some may even use it to further their goals in life.
I do not see where any particular organization can "save the world." Nor be condemned for the actions of a few. I sure would not want to be condemned as a white guy for the actions of the KKK.

Could be, that we as individuals, can only do our small part to help those immediately around us as we can. This action on a large scale could make a difference. Religion has little to do with this approach.

Echo, at this point in our society, if I saw anyone standing at the gates of the Bush ranch preaching against the war, or any thing else, I would wonder just what personal gain they were attempting to accomplish.

Al Sharpton was mentioned. I personally think that he and a few like him show up where there is a chance for personal publicity for personal motives. I include Jesse Jackson in this group.
But, I will add, that if they, in the course of their pursuit of personal gain, accomplish some positive things, it is worth while in the scheme of things.

Real Christians are against the war and have come out against such. The Christian Peacemakers are an exceptional international group. There were churches that sent human sheild over to Iraq before the war. Those are the real cristians. The ones that believe in their spirituality, not the religion. Religion is merely a power structure meant to take the power of the people and put it into the hands of politicians.

CINO = Christian in Name Only

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Real Christians are against the war and have come out against such. The Christian Peacemakers are an exceptional international group. There were churches that sent human sheild over to Iraq before the war. Those are the real cristians. The ones that believe in their spirituality, not the religion. Religion is merely a power structure meant to take the power of the people and put it into the hands of politicians.

CINO = Christian in Name Only

Guerilla, there are both christians and non-christians who agree with the war and those who don't. Some people are for it, because they feel that this war is fighting against terroism and feel that's what is needed to be done. War for sure is a horrible thing and peace would be wonderful if it were actually possible to happen. But do you think that it ever will with the way things are going in the world today? God wants us to have a heart for others and if we do, we certainly won't want to see the destruction and bloodshed of warfare. It's heart wrenching to see all that going on. But some people think there is no other alternative to terorism than that. What are really the U.S. governments motives for this war? Is it really to combat terrorism? I beleive there are other motives behind it, but many think that is exactly what this war is about and think that the U.S. government is doign a great job when in reality it is causing many innocent people to die. Mnay are deceived into thinkign that the government is about trying to protect their freedom from terrorism.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Real Christians are against the war and have come out against such. The Christian Peacemakers are an exceptional international group. There were churches that sent human sheild over to Iraq before the war. Those are the real cristians. The ones that believe in their spirituality, not the religion. Religion is merely a power structure meant to take the power of the people and put it into the hands of politicians.

CINO = Christian in Name Only


FANTASTIC that we have a non-christian telling us what christianity is all about, how it works, and who we are.

I think the reason people like echo and 500lb guerilla are so anti christian is becuase if they have no affiliation no one expects anyting out of them. they can act however they want and still berate the chrstians for not acting how they are supposed to. its the best of both worlds. when you have no standards, you can never look bad. Yet, you can still try and make the christians look bad for not being good christians. I am no christian, but i respect them for ahving standrds to reach for,. I dont respect people like echo who believe in nothing so as to not have to answer to anyone, including themselves.

Originally posted by Travh20
I think the reason people like echo and 500lb guerilla are so anti christian is becuase if they have no affiliation

Interesting, I volunteer for the Red Cross, the humane society and at one of the soup kitchens downtown. I also give a lot of donations to charitable organizations. I guess those aren't affiliations either.

no one expects anyting out of them. they can act however they want

What world do you live in?

and still berate the chrstians for not acting how they are supposed to.

Whose decides how the christians are supposed to act? The people that blow up medical facilities because they perform abortions? The people that preach love and peace yet start wars? I don't recall anything in the bible that says "Thou shalt not kill except... (insert circumstance here)."

its the best of both worlds. when you have no standards, you can never look bad.

There are more christians in prison than atheists. The majority of atheists are highly educated while the majority of christians are uneducated. My standards come from my humanity and my consious connection to my conscience. Christians standards come from their religion and fear of hell.

I dont respect people like echo who believe in nothing so as to not have to answer to anyone, including themselves.

Atheists have to answer to their humanity and their conscience. We don't do good deeds so we will be in favor with god, we do them because we want to, because it is the right thing to do and because we are connected to humanity. Not out of fear of burning in eternity forever.

BTW - Thanks for not respecting me trav. That one fact strengthens my belief that I am on the right path. :D

where do you think your conscience comes from echo? just some random synapses firing in a specific order?

It comes from my connection to humanity and my belief that we are all connected to the earth, wind, sky, plants and animals of this world. My belief that I can make a difference in this world. My ceratintly that the energy I put out affects others. When I put out negative energy it effects the world and when I put out bad energy, it effects the world. Throw a small pebble into a pond and the ripple will touch everything in the pond and all of it's shores.

I do good things because I want to and like to. I do not need a thousands of years old book to tell me to do them or the fear of burning in eternity to do them.

FYI - I am a Taoist. Taoists do not have an all powrfull entity with an agenda. We have no all powerful entity at all.

so its OK for your conscience to come from your beliefs but when a christains coscience comes from tehir beleifs they really ahve no conscience? they are sheep?

Originally posted by Echo2
It comes from my connection to humanity and my belief that we are all connected to the earth, wind, sky, plants and animals of this world. My belief that I can make a difference in this world. My ceratintly that the energy I put out affects others. When I put out negative energy it effects the world and when I put out bad energy, it effects the world. Throw a small pebble into a pond and the ripple will touch everything in the pond and all of it's shores.

I do good things because I want to and like to. I do not need a thousands of years old book to tell me to do them or the fear of burning in eternity to do them.

FYI - I am a Taoist. Taoists do not have an all powrfull entity with an agenda. We have no all powerful entity at all.

And all this time i thought you were a bloodsucking anti-religion zealot.

Good for you Echo2, I do good things because I want to and like to. I do not need a thousands of years old book to tell me to do them or the fear of burning in eternity to do them.

Although that is far from an accurate description, i do understand what you mean.

PS- Taoism, didn't the founder Laozi/Lao Tzu call it Daoism?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent rebuttal Trav btw

Originally posted by Echo2
The majority of atheists are highly educated while the majority of christians are uneducated.


And this comes from what source?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
And this comes from what source?

The wonderful world of Echo's mind :D

Originally posted by Echo2 Who decides how the christians are supposed to act? The people that blow up medical facilities because they perform abortions?

Echo, how many people do you actually know that blow up abortion clinics? I would like an honest answer as to how many christians you "actually" know that partake in that. I personally have "NEVER" met a christian that partakes in blowing up abortion clinics. Why is it that some people steroetype "ALL" christians to be like that when own a tiny fragment of christians partake in that?

The people who preach love and peace yet start wars?


Again, how many christians do you know who start wars? There are many christians who are not war mongers as we are stereotyped to be. Besides, in order to start a war, you must be in power and have rulership of a nation to start a war. Those who run the goverment of the U.S. are certainly not christians.

[B]Atheists have to answer to their humanity and their conscience. We don't do good deeds so we will be in favor with god, we do them because we want to, because it is the right thing to do and because we are connected to humanity. Not out of fear of burning in eternity forever.

There are more christians in prison than athiests.

YOU ARE INDEED CORRECT! That is because many in prison have accepted the gospel message. But they sure weren't christians when they went into prison.

The majority of atheists are highly educated, while the majority of christians are uneducated

I don't know where you get that from, but I know many christian youth that are in either university or college and many christians in secondary school that are persuing post secondary education. Just because someone is an atheist, certainly doesn't mean they're educated either. Nonetheless, education isn't what makes a person. It' who they are inside.

tiny fragment

TINY!?!?!?! Heck i can count them without having to use my toes :D that portion is a miniscule sector of wrongdoers who have severe mental and spiritual problems.

The people who preach love and peace yet start wars?

The geo-political economic and social sectors of the world have to be governed accordingly, things come up.

We don't do good deeds so we will be in favor with god, we do them because we want to, because it is the right thing to do and because we are connected to humanity.

Do you? Or do you do them to get something in return? such as respect from others or material goods of some sort?

Not out of fear of burning in eternity forever.

Doing good is how you get to earn your place in the presence of God according to christian teaching. Not doing good does not result in damnation, doing evil is the cause of that.

I don't know where you get that from

Neither do i, but education rates in the more developed nations of the world are higher than the less developed, and that bracket of more developed, more educated nations has higher christian percentages. Coincidence? Poke around the CIA factbook on demographics of the world and that will become apparent.

Nonetheless, education isn't what makes a person. It' who they are inside.

But education still is a massive part of who you are and what you have done. Intellectuals raise themselves above the populace by their knowledge and work.

But that is a social aspect of it, in the end you are right. Its who we are and how we treat others that reflects who we are.

Originally posted by Travh20
so its OK for your conscience to come from your beliefs but when a christains coscience comes from tehir beleifs they really ahve no conscience? they are sheep?

My beliefs are not given to me by an ancient superstition and they do not come from Taoism. My beliefs have been formed through experience and conscience. I call myself a Taoist because after researching hundreds of religions it most closely describes my personal beliefs.

Yes, it is called both Daoism and Taoism. It does not have any written rules or belief system that it imposes. It does not act as my conscience, I don't call myself a Taoist out of fear of a horrible torturing eternity. There are no worship or punishment games. No idividuals to tell me how to practice it. No guilt, no fear, no proseletyzing, no thou shalt nots.

Originally posted by Echo2


My ceratintly that the energy I put out affects others. When I put out negative energy it effects the world and when I put out bad energy, it effects the world.

Yep, you reap what you sow. You harvest what you plant. If you treat people with respect and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you would certainly plant some good seeds into this world. To do unto others and you would have done unto you, that includes doing that towards christians.



I do good things because I want to and like to. I do not need a thousands of years old book to tell me to do them or the fear of burning in eternity to do them.

You think that your doing good by promoting a stereotype? I mean, many of your posts are just so stereotypical towards christians. You paint all of us with the same brush. If one christian does somehting wicked in the name of the Lord, you assume we are all like that.

I call myself a Taoist because after researching hundreds of religions it most closely describes my personal beliefs.

Perhaps i can call myself a muslim or jew then...:confused:

No guilt, no fear, no proseletyzing, no thou shalt nots.

No order or humanity involved, people act like animals?

Originally posted by Echo2
My beliefs are not given to me by an ancient superstition and they do not come from Taoism. My beliefs have been formed through experience and conscience. I call myself a Taoist because after researching hundreds of religions it most closely describes my personal beliefs.

Yes, it is called both Daoism and Taoism. It does not have any written rules or belief system that it imposes. It does not act as my conscience, I don't call myself a Taoist out of fear of a horrible torturing eternity. There are no worship or punishment games. No idividuals to tell me how to practice it. No guilt, no fear, no proseletyzing, no thou shalt nots.

sounds perfect for you. since there are no standards you can never be wrong. sounds like the liberal mantra to me. If we set the bar low enough everyone can get over it.

I think the reason people like echo and 500lb guerilla are so anti christian is becuase if they have no affiliation no one expects anyting out of them. they can act however they want and still berate the chrstians for not acting how they are supposed to. its the best of both worlds. when you have no standards, you can never look bad. Yet, you can still try and make the christians look bad for not being good christians. I am no christian, but i respect them for ahving standrds to reach for,. I dont respect people like echo who believe in nothing so as to not have to answer to anyone, including themselves. ahhh, Travh while attemping to bash others has revealed his hand. Trav has no standards and connects it to his lack of faith. Its hard for him to imagine that others have standards and morals without the threat of eternal punishment. Sorry Trav I need need supernatural threats to live by my own personal moral code. Thanks.

FANTASTIC that we have a non-christian telling us what christianity is all about, how it works, and who we are. Wrong jackass. The jesus tells you what christianity is all about (and I assuming in your case the bible as well).

THOU SHALT NOT KILL = real christians are anti-war because innocent people will always be killed in war.

BTW - who said agnostics couldn't be christian? Christian = follower of Christ.

I do not adhere to the chrstian religion because religions are merely power structures with the ability to pervert to will of the people.

Wrong jackass.

FANTASTIC that we have a non-christian telling us what christianity is all about, how it works, and who we are. :)

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

BTW - who said agnostics couldn't be christian? Christian = follower of Christ.


Because then they wouldn't be Agnostic... they would be Christian? I thought that was fairly obvious....

Agnostic = One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

To be a Christian is to believe that Jesus was the son of God, thus you have to "without doubt" believe there Is a God.

Did you even think at all when you wrote that.

Buddists don't believe Budda was a God.

To be a follower of someone does not mean that you have to believe they are sort sort of divinity.

Jesus never once said he was god. He said he was the son of god just as everyone on the planet would therefore be a son or daughter of god.

John 10:33-34

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

* = Psalm 82:6
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Buddists don't believe Budda was a God.

Thanks for that...? Any reason as to why you posted that

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
To be a follower of someone does not mean that you have to believe they are sort sort of divinity.

Your point being?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Jesus never once said he was god. He said he was the son of god just as everyone on the planet would therefore be a son or daughter of god. I never said "Jesus was God, in fact i said the opposite, so I dont even know who your debating anymore when you simply repeat my statements?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
John 10:33-34

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken

* = Psalm 82:6
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.

Are you just pointing out a Bible Contradiction? or trying to make some point that all of us already agree upon?

Its really hard to work out what your trying to say, does anyone else have this problem with him?

loki wrote-
To be a Christian is to believe that Jesus was the son of God, thus you have to "without doubt" believe there Is a God.
Did you ever consider the idea that other people are god?

"that which you do for the least among you you do for me"

Couldn't that mean that everyone is god and should be respected as such? And doing so would create 'heaven on earth.'

God doesn't have t be a divine being, it could be a collective consciousness.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla


Did you ever consider the idea that other people are god?

"that which you do for the least among you you do for me"

Couldn't that mean that everyone is god and should be respected as such? And doing so would create 'heaven on earth.'

God doesn't have t be a divine being, it could be a collective consciousness.

NOT FOR CHRISTIANS.... sweet fuck alive are you retarded?

Yes everyone could be their own little God, yes we could alltogether be a single God, Yes the entire universe could be ruled by seven headed pink planet flying monkeys BUT when regarding Christianity none of this applys!

the entire universe could be ruled by seven headed pink planet flying monkeysUh oh! Now I'll have to go and add that to the long list of possibilities I need to prove 100% not true in order to justify being an atheist. :D

How about I spell it with a little 'c', like christian. Does that qwell your mighty anger?

Do you have a better term for someone who believes in Christ's teachings but could careless for religion and divinity?

The word has been coopted. The intent of any religion is cooption of power and values as can be evidenced by the multitude of factions that believe virtually the exact same thing.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Do you have a better term for someone who believes in Christ's teachings but could careless for religion and divinity?


By this are you meaning, someone who lives their life as christ would have us do, without actually believing christ existed, the bible miracles etc etc? Or are you just asking what we would call someone who lived an honest life without adhering to any specific religion.

I'd call them a decent person??

I dont know If it's just me, but its really hard to follow you since you seem to just wander off the topic and start ranting about stuff ignoring the points brought up by others.

I never said anything about christ not existing. Its not an all or none package.

You got what I am saying.