Darth Be'lal
08-24-2005, 04:28 AM
I've decided to take quotes from one of Bin Laden's little speeches. In part to bolster my assertion that the Jihadists are not going to leave America alone no matter what we do, why we are fighting in Iraq and also some rebuttals to a few of Bin Laden's quotes. It's important, I think, for Americans to be able to articulate why their own culture is worth defending. This is especially true when it comes to defending American culture when it is viewd as debased and lacking in morals. Bin Laden's entire speech is worth reading, he actually comes up with some pretty good points. Know your enemy, and know yourself. The Jihadists understand themselves and their enemies all too well, it's time we here in the West do the same.
(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
For all you guys that have been doubting that the Jihadist do want the entire world to fall under the banner of Islam, Bin Laden's little quote is for you! As stated in the past by me, the West is in a culture war with the Islamists. One side values democracy, seperates church and state and leaves people free to choose how they live. The other side believes-sincerely I might add-that people should be ruled by the decrees of Allah as set down in the Koran, I'll go into detail as to why that's a bad idea later. I've also stated that the Islamists are NOT going to leave us alone. Even if the U.S. left the entire Middle East tomorrow and stopped supporting Israel, the Bin Laden types believe that ANYONE who is not a Muslim is an enemy. For the insurgents to have success in Iraq and Afghanistan would only embolden these guys. Dammit.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
This second part is most interesting. You see, many Muslims DO believe that the West -I'm lumping Europe here in with the U.S.- are basically debauched and immoral societies. And there are plenty of examples to be found if one were to go looking. The way to counter this argument is for you to realize that forced morality is no morality at all. You can mete out horrible punishments to people who drink, engage in pre-marital sex, adultery, dress too skimpy and whatever, but people avoid doing those things because they know they'd be severely punished if caught doing so. True morality comes from the CHOICE of engaging in, for example, adultery and CHOOSING not to do so because it's wrong. That is true morality and it's something you can throw in the face of anyone who says that Muslims are trying to lives of morality or virtue. There isn't morality or virtue without choice. Dammit. Vile and overdose, note the part where Bin Laden condemns homosexuality. It may be of some interest to the two of you.
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives? [QUOTE]
One of the little painful lessons learned in Europe is that it's a bad idea to have a ruler or organization that speaks or is endorsed by God or Allah or Yaweh or whatever it is you wish to call a supreme being. There isn't much room for debate when someone claims to speak on behalf of God. Of course, the Muslims have their own view on what Allah decreed, then there are the Jews, the Christians, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and so forth. And, of course, every single one of these adherents sincerely believe that they alone know the truth of what the Supreme Being has decreed and are willing to kill or die for their beliefs, so you get things like the Spanish Inquisition or the debacle that has plagued the Irish since time out of mind. When the United States was founded, our Founding Fathers decided that America was NOT going to fall prey to religious strife. The philosophy of the Founding Fathers was that people did have certain rights that did come from God, but those rights would be managed by people. By carefully keeping church and state seperated, America has been able to allow half a zillion different religions in one country without religious warfares or Jihadist creeping up. Again, Bin Laden and company believe that they hold the scriptures of how the Supreme Being wishes everyone of us to live and is willing to kill or die to see that their relgious ideals spread throughout the world. Seperation of Church and State is yet one of the lessons the Muslims haven't learned, and the learning is going to be painful.
[QUOTE] (vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
And yet, sadly, women in Middle Eastern countries have all the rights and freedoms of a black man in Alabama in 1900.
(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.
I just love it when international terrorists start mouthing off on Democratic talking points ala Al Franken and the bunch. Sooner or later, that has got to make the democrats uncomfortable. These are the same guys who will saw people's heads off on TV, but hey, at least they are environmentally concerned. Maybe they can get together with the Earth Liberation Front and really shake things up! When Bin Laden isn't doing democrat talking points, he's blaming the Jews and giant corporations for all the evils in the world, keep your heads up for these.
(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?
Well yes, America does look after its own interest, name me a nation that doesn't! And yes, the United States did drop nuclear bombs on Japan, they weren't quite as ready to surrender as Bin Laden happened to believe. But after the surrender, America DID allow Japan to keep her sovereinty, culture and even helped Japan to rebuild. Imagine, just for a second, what men like Bin Laden would've done had they been in the same position of Harry Truman and had an entire nation handed to them.
These are but a few of Bin Laden's grievances against the United States. I'd urge all of you to read his entire speech. Please feel free to come up with interesting points of your own. Dammit.
Bin Laden speech (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html)
(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
For all you guys that have been doubting that the Jihadist do want the entire world to fall under the banner of Islam, Bin Laden's little quote is for you! As stated in the past by me, the West is in a culture war with the Islamists. One side values democracy, seperates church and state and leaves people free to choose how they live. The other side believes-sincerely I might add-that people should be ruled by the decrees of Allah as set down in the Koran, I'll go into detail as to why that's a bad idea later. I've also stated that the Islamists are NOT going to leave us alone. Even if the U.S. left the entire Middle East tomorrow and stopped supporting Israel, the Bin Laden types believe that ANYONE who is not a Muslim is an enemy. For the insurgents to have success in Iraq and Afghanistan would only embolden these guys. Dammit.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
This second part is most interesting. You see, many Muslims DO believe that the West -I'm lumping Europe here in with the U.S.- are basically debauched and immoral societies. And there are plenty of examples to be found if one were to go looking. The way to counter this argument is for you to realize that forced morality is no morality at all. You can mete out horrible punishments to people who drink, engage in pre-marital sex, adultery, dress too skimpy and whatever, but people avoid doing those things because they know they'd be severely punished if caught doing so. True morality comes from the CHOICE of engaging in, for example, adultery and CHOOSING not to do so because it's wrong. That is true morality and it's something you can throw in the face of anyone who says that Muslims are trying to lives of morality or virtue. There isn't morality or virtue without choice. Dammit. Vile and overdose, note the part where Bin Laden condemns homosexuality. It may be of some interest to the two of you.
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives? [QUOTE]
One of the little painful lessons learned in Europe is that it's a bad idea to have a ruler or organization that speaks or is endorsed by God or Allah or Yaweh or whatever it is you wish to call a supreme being. There isn't much room for debate when someone claims to speak on behalf of God. Of course, the Muslims have their own view on what Allah decreed, then there are the Jews, the Christians, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and so forth. And, of course, every single one of these adherents sincerely believe that they alone know the truth of what the Supreme Being has decreed and are willing to kill or die for their beliefs, so you get things like the Spanish Inquisition or the debacle that has plagued the Irish since time out of mind. When the United States was founded, our Founding Fathers decided that America was NOT going to fall prey to religious strife. The philosophy of the Founding Fathers was that people did have certain rights that did come from God, but those rights would be managed by people. By carefully keeping church and state seperated, America has been able to allow half a zillion different religions in one country without religious warfares or Jihadist creeping up. Again, Bin Laden and company believe that they hold the scriptures of how the Supreme Being wishes everyone of us to live and is willing to kill or die to see that their relgious ideals spread throughout the world. Seperation of Church and State is yet one of the lessons the Muslims haven't learned, and the learning is going to be painful.
[QUOTE] (vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
And yet, sadly, women in Middle Eastern countries have all the rights and freedoms of a black man in Alabama in 1900.
(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.
I just love it when international terrorists start mouthing off on Democratic talking points ala Al Franken and the bunch. Sooner or later, that has got to make the democrats uncomfortable. These are the same guys who will saw people's heads off on TV, but hey, at least they are environmentally concerned. Maybe they can get together with the Earth Liberation Front and really shake things up! When Bin Laden isn't doing democrat talking points, he's blaming the Jews and giant corporations for all the evils in the world, keep your heads up for these.
(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?
Well yes, America does look after its own interest, name me a nation that doesn't! And yes, the United States did drop nuclear bombs on Japan, they weren't quite as ready to surrender as Bin Laden happened to believe. But after the surrender, America DID allow Japan to keep her sovereinty, culture and even helped Japan to rebuild. Imagine, just for a second, what men like Bin Laden would've done had they been in the same position of Harry Truman and had an entire nation handed to them.
These are but a few of Bin Laden's grievances against the United States. I'd urge all of you to read his entire speech. Please feel free to come up with interesting points of your own. Dammit.
Bin Laden speech (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html)