Originally posted by nagarjuna
Yes, and is it not an archaic definition in need of overhauling? For even if it is not a medical definition per se, should it not be more solidly grounded on modern knowledge of how human beings actually think, feel, and behave?

Yes.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
So saving money is more important to you than doing what is right?

Um, you are talking to Prae here...:D so his answer will be yes... I could place bets on this and make money...:)

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Do you seriously think that asswipe is fixable? I don't, and I'd just as soon not waste any time trying to figure out why he ripped his mother's larynx out, put it down the garbage disposal, and then raped her cold, dead corpse in a pool of her own blood. I, quite frankly, don't give a shit, and I have no mercy for a person capable of murdering 8 women only to decorate portions of his bedroom with their body parts. If you really want to "figure" people like Edmund Kemper out, then I feel sorry for you.

Maybe if someone had rescued the kid before his family situation built a monster capable of killing women in this manner then, perhaps he would have been a productive member of society. Maybe the mother should have been executed. My guess is she did some wonderful things to her child in order for him to have done these atrocities to her. Maybe everything is backwards. How come no one is ever held accountable when the background becomes known and the things that were done to these people comes to light?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I understand what you are saying, and I probably would feel the same way. What I might do as a grieving relative isn't neccessarily what I want our justice system to do.



But if you execute someone out of anger and feelings of revenge, aren't you killing someone with mailice aforethought and premeditation? And if we are morally proscribed ourselves from committing such an act, how can we ask our government to do it for us?
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To me, the premeditated killing of a person convicted of an attrocious crime, is no comparison to the premeditated killing of an innocent person. Somehow I am able to sort out the moral issues of this action to satisfy my mind.
I am not saying that I would never feel some remorse. I am saying that I am willing to bear this burden to eliminate the savage bastard from the face of the earth.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Um, you are talking to Prae here...:D so his answer will be yes... I could place bets on this and make money...:)
Lucky guess. :D

Originally posted by nagarjuna
So saving money is more important to you than doing what is right?
I think you and I differ on determining what is right for society - morally and monetarily.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I think you and I differ on determining what is right for society - morally and monetarily.
It is right to execute people for very serious crimes, even if they commit these crimes because psychological illness and disability caused them to do it?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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To me, the premeditated killing of a person convicted of an attrocious crime, is no comparison to the premeditated killing of an innocent person. Somehow I am able to sort out the moral issues of this action to satisfy my mind.
I am not saying that I would never feel some remorse. I am saying that I am willing to bear this burden to eliminate the savage bastard from the face of the earth.

Well said, Dan.
Also would like to note that it's been nice discussing this topic without a name-calling and insults. Many have differing views, and it's good to talk this over like adults and perhaps learn something.

Originally posted by nagarjuna
It is right to execute people for very serious crimes, even if they commit these crimes because psychological illness and disability caused them to do it?
I think the difference between you and I is, I don't care what caused them to do it; the end result is people have been killed, and consequently, those responsible should be executed by a firing squad. JMO.

This brings me back to my original question: how do you "treat" Charles Manson? What insight can he provide on the criminal mind, and how can you justify having society pay for his housing and food? The whole concept of letting them breath our air is criminal to me...

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I think the difference between you and I is, I don't care what caused them to do it; the end result is people have been killed, and consequently, those responsible should be executed by a firing squad. JMO.

This brings me back to my original question: how do you "treat" Charles Manson? What insight can he provide on the criminal mind, and how can you justify having society pay for his housing and food? The whole concept of letting them breath our air is criminal to me...

Here's what we can learn from Charlie:
how to manipulate young homeless teenagers, how to rip off an old blind guy by living rent free on his ranch, how to teach impressionable young people to kill and torture others, how to hide in a cabinet that's large enough for a can of Drano when the cops come looking for you, how to carve X's and then swastikas into our faces, how to disrupt a courtroom and attack a judge, how to attempt to start a race war, how to spend the rest of our lives again living rent free courtesy of the State of California.

I have long had a problem with the insanity defense.
It is an almost automatic defense in an attrocious crime.
Heck, it is, to me, quite obvious that a person that kills, mutilates, stores the parts in his refrigerator, has a mental process operating outside the accepted limits of our society.

I would venture to say that there are many people "out there" that have no regard for human life and have not acted on their impulses because of fear of the price society would demand that they pay, when apprehended.

I believe that most of the people that secretly carry out murders, rapes, and various crimes do not think they will be caught. They believe they are too smart.

These people are not so crazy that they do not try to evade detection. Yet, when caught plead insanity. Heck, people have stated that they lived or worked along side these people for years while they were commiting serial killings and never suspected that they were any different from anyone else.

I still see no reason to permanently lock these people up.
Get rid of them. Then plant them in a rose garden so they can fertilize something beautiful.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I still see no reason to permanently lock these people up.
Get rid of them. Then plant them in a rose garden so they can fertilize something beautiful.

Eloquent as always Dan. :)

Originally posted by The Praetorian
This brings me back to my original question: how do you "treat" Charles Manson? What insight can he provide on the criminal mind, and how can you justify having society pay for his housing and food? The whole concept of letting them breath our air is criminal to me...
Quarantined or incarcerated people who pose a danger to others because of their sickness or disability should be allowed to live only if they can be "treated" within a foreseeably short time or not cost taxpayers much money?

Precisely.

I noticed there is alot of debate whether a killer is sick or not. How about someone that kills for personal gain, example insurance, gang power, robbing a gas station, etc.... These people truely know it is wrong to kill but they do it anyway. How would any of you feel if your loved one were shot by a gang banger {or robber}just for going into McD's to get a soda? Should these cowards of society be put down? My answer is yes. I still feel the punishment should equal the crime the best way possible without torture.

I guess that's how it's always been, some people for an eye for and eye and some against. And whether the true predator-type criminal gets executed or not depends upon which side of the argument was predominant at any given time.

Here's a few right here on this page, including Manson
http://www.amokbooks.com/order.html

Manson - not executed
Panzram - executed
Gilles de Rais - executed
The L.A. Despair book is about several crimes
Wonderland, Billy Cook (I think he was executed), Barbara Graham (executed), and Spade Cooley (not executed)

Wow. This was probably the most entertaining thread I have read since I first started posting here. Thank everyone who was involved for your intelligent opinions on this subject.

Personally....I think the serial killers should be dropped of in antartica to let the polar bears take care of that problem....as for the rest of the murderers,rapists,pedophiles and such.....lock them up in solitary for the rest of their lives with no accomidations other than the basic neccesities and let them rot!!!! For all others...a very harsh work order and not just a slap on the wrist.