For those who watched the circus that was the BTK sentencing...what do you think of it?

Was his emotion real (he cried and apologized) was it all just show?

Also...if you happened to catch Wolf Blitzer ....another CNN personality (who's name fails me) went off the deep end about how he didnt deserve the coverage he got because its the reason he became the BTK in the first place.

Your thoughts?

I saw him on dateline last week, and he feeds off the attention. He told stone philips, that the day the interrigations started to cease, and the feds didn't show up to interview him was the saddest day of his life.

Sociopath.

I just saw a repeat of Rader's performance. IMO this guy has no remorse at all. It's all a grand show, and he has been center stage. Just as he wanted it.

Too bad his atrocities were commited during a time of no death penalty. If any crime is suitable for that punishment, it would be in a case like this.

I agree with Ms Otero when she calls him a coward at his sentencing.

I agree. If he's sorry--its only because he got caught (and I seriously doubt hes sorry about that)

I have followed this case since 1974, the year he killed the Otero family. It was a shocking and sickening crime, and he kept it up--for years.

I recall reading in one of John Douglas' books how a killer like Rader is so very hard to catch. Profiling doesn't provide a name, just possible likely suspects. At the time of Douglas' writings, Rader was still uncaught. Little hope was held that he'd EVER be caught.

It amazed me then, and it amazes me now, how this guy loved to play games--with his victims, with the community, with the law--writing taunting notes, sending puzzles, writing again after a 30-year time lapse-- just playing with people.

And he kept it up even today in the courtroom.

If there's any justice in this world will "man" will end up with a noose around his neck, courtesy of the guards or a fellow inmate.

Kinda ironic how one of his games led to his downfall. For all his "brains", he never made the connection that a simple computer disk would lead to his downfall. Like the one detective said--he was nothing special. Just lucky.

I am not usually a big fan of capital punishment...but I have to admit.

Someone who has created that much pain in families. That much fear. And has also created that much disgusting evil...probably IS worthy of death.

He is a sick twist with absolutely zero remorse. In his mind he will play over and over again, his greatest stage debut and he will get off on it. Don't sentence him to death, sentence him to obscurity, it will torture him.

Even including the death penalty, there is no punishment more severe then life in prison.

Originally posted by Evakian
Even including the death penalty, there is no punishment more severe then life in prison. I cant speak for everyone, but the above statement doesnt go for me. Where their is life, their is hope. No matter how bleak.

I wil say what i have said before, no one deserves the death penalty for no matter how depraved a crime. Although the life sentence is a life of nothingness, a life that is nothing is far worse to get.

Killing killers just creates more killers

I cant speak for everyone, but the above statement doesnt go for me. Where their is life, their is hope. No matter how bleak.
I'm certainly going to have to agree with Evakian on this, mostly in relation to what Sal mentioned. People get forgotten when sitting in jail. That would be something that would finally drive him insane. Killing him would create him as a martyr in his eyes. We're looking for punishment and justice, appeasing his deranged wishes is neither.

Originally posted by bucman80
that guy is the sickest person i have ever seen he should be tortured for the rest of his life in jail.

That in itself is a sick thought, and head around the block a few times, he is just in a club of many similar and sometimes much worse offenders.

Originally posted by Evakian
I wil say what i have said before, no one deserves the death penalty for no matter how depraved a crime. Although the life sentence is a life of nothingness, a life that is nothing is far worse to get.

Killing killers just creates more killers

I respectfully disagree with your stance on capital punishment, Evak.
For some crimes, and some criminals, execution is the ONLY fitting punishment.

"Killing killers creates more killers" is a simple generalization. Many factors combine to create a vicious criminal. There are even some schools of thought that say they are born, not made. (I disagree with this reasoning.)

"Inside the Criminal Mind" is an eye -opening book for those who have mixed feelings on this subject and what drives a certain kind of anti-social personality.-- the main premise being--the feeling of power it gives them, of being above the law, the great satisfaction it gives this type of personality to take a life.

No, capital punishment will not stop this kind of killer. After all, they never think they'll be caught to begin with. (And it's silly to assume that BTK WANTED to get caught because he erred so badly at the end--sending that disk in. Nonsense--if he had wanted to get caught, it was a simple matter of turning himself into a police station.) But it is the ONLY way to assure society that this kind of psychopathic individual will never kill again.

Perhaps a capital punishment thread can be started to discuss this further.

Originally posted by Evakian
That in itself is a sick thought, and head around the block a few times, he is just in a club of many similar and sometimes much worse offenders.

In all honesty, I cannot think of too many worse. He is similar to Bundy, Son of Sam, the Green River Killer, the Zodiac, et al.
IMO, tho, this piece of @#$% makes Jack the Ripper look NICE. Jack (whoever he was) killed quickly--a blitz type killer. He also didn't kill kids! The more I hear about Jack, in all honesty,and the more I compare him to some of the modern typses we hear so much about, the more I feel he actually had some class. (such as it was).

Originally posted by Evakian
Killing killers just creates more killers


I do not believe in capital punishment for most crimes even murder however, taking the life of a killer certainly ensures he/she will never take another life in cold blood again. So it is an effective way to neutralize them.

I have to disagree fully with you folks that disagree with death for the simple fact as Havok stated and because it has been proven that these freaks will still kill while locked up. The public taking a stand and putting someone to death is nothing at all like a freak ba****d torturing and killing innocent lives. I do not understand why anyone would think life in prison is worse then death. Prison is not that bad, for some of these loons it is a better life then what they had to begain with. I can't count the interviews I've watched where they were talking with Johnny killer and he would say life in prison is worse then death. BUT, here is the catch when it is finally time for Johnny killer to walk the walk he freaks out and starts crying like a little b***h. Now, One has to ask if dying is so great then why would they not want to do it so bad????????????

Originally posted by mad dog
I have to disagree fully with you folks that disagree with death for the simple fact as Havok stated and because it has been proven that these freaks will still kill while locked up. The public taking a stand and putting someone to death is nothing at all like a freak ba****d torturing and killing innocent lives. I do not understand why anyone would think life in prison is worse then death. Prison is not that bad, for some of these loons it is a better life then what they had to begain with. I can't count the interviews I've watched where they were talking with Johnny killer and he would say life in prison is worse then death. BUT, here is the catch when it is finally time for Johnny killer to walk the walk he freaks out and starts crying like a little b***h. Now, One has to ask if dying is so great then why would they not want to do it so bad????????????

I know this sounds cold but frankly I don't care if they kill while in lock up...like knows like...

See thread on capital punishment mad dog... otherwise we do the same debate in two different threads... my brain will be even more addled...:D

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I know this sounds cold but frankly I don't care if they kill while in lock up...like knows like...

There are innocent people around these pukes when they are incarcerated, you know. Take, for instance, the guards whose job it is to maintain control over these animals. Also, there are medical personel whose job it is to keep these animals healthy. Finally, there are the convicted felons who are in for lesser crimes such as drug charges, habitual drunk charges, etc. (non-violent) who have to be around these animals. You may not care, but there are many more who do.

Originally posted by HaVoK
There are innocent people around these pukes when they are incarcerated, you know. Take, for instance, the guards whose job it is to maintain control over these animals. Also, there are medical personel whose job it is to keep these animals healthy. Finally, there are the convicted felons who are in for lesser crimes such as drug charges, habitual drunk charges, etc. (non-violent) who have to be around these animals. You may not care, but there are many more who do.

Havok we love each other so don't we? I think you only turn up lately each time I post something that pisses you off. Sort of like trav and echo... we are Havok and Sal... nice ring don't ya think?

Now back to the post... I was speaking of other inmates as I am sure you well know. I take it you are one of the many who do..to use your words..."care". Good to know you can separate the "animals" from the other human offal.

I have yet to hear of a serial killer who has killed a guard or medical personal looking after the "animals". Only the highest security is used when transporting them or handling them. And I highly doubt they are placed with habitual drunks or other non violents. It is prison, not jail.

I still don't care... :D

Check out the thread Crime and Punishment, the lovechild of this thread.

See you there

Originally posted by ~Sal~

Now back to the post... I was speaking of other inmates as I am sure you well know. I take it you are one of the many who do..to use your words..."care". Good to know you can separate the "animals" from the other human offal.

I have yet to hear of a serial killer who has killed a guard or medical personal looking after the "animals". Only the highest security is used when transporting them or handling them. And I highly doubt they are placed with habitual drunks or other non violents. It is prison, not jail.
I still don't care... :D Yes, I do care about the well being and rehabilitation of some convicts. Not all of them are worthless.



I do not have the statistics on guard/medical personel attacks handy and am too lazy to look it up. However, if even one attack happens, it is too many. People like Rader shouldnt have a chance to hurt anyone physically or mentally ever again.

Originally posted by ~Sal~

And I highly doubt they are placed with habitual drunks or other non violents. It is prison, not jail.


Having an ex- brother in law who spent 6 years in prison on an arson charge, I know from him that there was no segregation for him from the worst the prison had to offer. That is, until he was "lucky" enough to get assigned to a work camp.

BTW, he was in prison, not jail. So doubt away in ignorance of the facts.
:)

Having an ex- brother in law who spent 6 years in prison on an arson charge, I know from him that there was no segregation for him from the worst the prison had to offer. That is, until he was "lucky" enough to get assigned to a work camp.
Arson is a hefty crime. There's of course no damn way that they would even think of segregating arsonists from the rest.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Having an ex- brother in law who spent 6 years in prison on an arson charge, I know from him that there was no segregation for him from the worst the prison had to offer. That is, until he was "lucky" enough to get assigned to a work camp.
Arson is a hefty crime. There's of course no damn way that they would even think of segregating arsonists from the rest. I agree for the most part. However, there are some cases that "arson" isnt all that bad a crime when compared to murder, rape, and any kind of child crimes.

For instance, the guy i refered to burned a barn down in the middle of nowhere. Nothing burned but the barn, some hay, and tools. No loss of life. He was also 17 at the time he did this. He recieved a 30 year sentence on a first time offense and pulled 2 years in a maximum security prison before getting the work detail. Opinions vary, but this seemed a little harsh to me.

For people involved in this thread, check out the thread under History: Spaghetti-Os

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Now back to the post... I was speaking of other inmates as I am sure you well know. I take it you are one of the many who do..to use your words..."care". Good to know you can separate the "animals" from the other human offal.

Sal, I respect your posts but I feel you are lacking on this topic{sorry}. Lets say one of your loved ones gets locked up for a nonviolent crime{drugs stealing etc}. Now they are thrown in with Bob the killer and he senses your friend is not the fighting type. He follows him around and terrorizes him then in the end makes him his b***h, and kills him. This does happen and will happen as long as killers are not put away. At this time death is the only true way of getting them away from commiting more crime.

I have yet to hear of a serial killer who has killed a guard or medical personal looking after the "animals". Only the highest security is used when transporting them or handling them. And I highly doubt they are placed with habitual drunks or other non violents. It is prison, not jail.

Killers comes in all shapes and sizes, and yes killers have killed again while in lock up, they have killed guards inmates etc... Killers do not take a poll to decide who they will attack they just do it.

I understand your point of view and agree with it, if we had a prefect system, the problem is that we do not have a perfect system and I doubt we will in the near future.

Originally posted by mad dog
Sal, I respect your posts but I feel you are lacking on this topic{sorry}. Lets say one of your loved ones gets locked up for a nonviolent crime{drugs stealing etc}. Now they are thrown in with Bob the killer and he senses your friend is not the fighting type. He follows him around and terrorizes him then in the end makes him his b***h, and kills him. This does happen and will happen as long as killers are not put away. At this time death is the only true way of getting them away from commiting more crime.



Killers comes in all shapes and sizes, and yes killers have killed again while in lock up, they have killed guards inmates etc... Killers do not take a poll to decide who they will attack they just do it.

I understand your point of view and agree with it, if we had a prefect system, the problem is that we do not have a perfect system and I doubt we will in the near future.

mad dog my brother was a drug dealer and while they have their own loyalty and stick to it, white washing these people is foolish...drug dealing is violent in the extreme...my brother carried guns and in Canada that is unheard of...the cops feared him because ...well you know why. I have absolutely no blinders when it comes to crimes of a certain level... I know what they will do and how they will do it because I have lived it. They seem like your neighbour that is friendly and incredibly bright but their friends end up in the trunck of a car...and so do they. Different species...different world.

Drug dealers ARE the fighting type and so are most others who end up in prison unless wrongfully convicted. To pretend they are victims and "joe average" is naive in the extreme. There are few bitches who have not preyed upon another.

Do we love them anyway... if related, of course we do. But I learned long ago and far away... view reality as it is or it will blindside you. Criminals are criminals. Some are more violent than others but for the most part, it is a society with its own rules and regulations that citizens do not understand because they do not have the same psyche.

Sal, I still do not agree with your point of view on this. There are violent and nonviolent criminals. You are correct some drug dealers and others can be violent, but not all. I do not see where the punishment for a nonviolent person should be subject to a violent world. Sometimes folks get caught for doing the wrong things at the wrong times because of circumstances. My question to you is it fair to have a person pay for their crime or should we just allow torture? There are many criminals in jail that are not billy bob bada**, they do need to serve their sentence but should they be tortured while doing so? Once again if we lived in a perfect society we could put all the billy bob's together and let them whoop the sh*8 out of each other{most folks would care less}.

Originally posted by mad dog
Sal, I still do not agree with your point of view on this. There are violent and nonviolent criminals. You are correct some drug dealers and others can be violent, but not all. I do not see where the punishment for a nonviolent person should be subject to a violent world. Sometimes folks get caught for doing the wrong things at the wrong times because of circumstances. My question to you is it fair to have a person pay for their crime or should we just allow torture? There are many criminals in jail that are not billy bob bada**, they do need to serve their sentence but should they be tortured while doing so? Once again if we lived in a perfect society we could put all the billy bob's together and let them whoop the sh*8 out of each other{most folks would care less}.

yeah pull their finger nails out... lol... kidding, kidding...

The system mixes violent and non violent criminals together... they are already subjected to a violent world via the criminal system. That's the way it is. The system already exists. The issue here is the death penalty. Serial killers or anyone else for that matter should not have to "die" in order to protect other inmates. To me that is a feeble excuse to execute... You are supposedly doing this under the guise of compassion. It isn't compassion nor is it a reasonable argument for the death penalty. You are speaking of system reform which is badly needed but won't happen because your average joe American is not going to pay more taxes so that the criminals can have a better more protected environment.

All this brings up the question-
should prisons be for punishment, or rehabilitation?
Or both?
CAN this be combined? SHOULD it?
Who is capable of rehab, and who isn't?
Who should be punished more severely than others?
There's many an example of a guy going in as a petty crook and coming out a hardened criminal--like Dillinger. Michigan City MADE him what he was!

And yes, there are guys who should not be in at all--did a dumb thing, like a boyish prank, hurt no one, have no intention of breaking the law again, and spend years in appalling conditions.
I say the whole system needs overhauled but then again, I've never been to the Big House as an inmate, nor ever worked at one either. this must be the hardest job in the world, and the most unfulfilling.

Originally posted by rendova
All this brings up the question-
should prisons be for punishment, or rehabilitation?
Or both?
CAN this be combined? SHOULD it?
Who is capable of rehab, and who isn't?
Who should be punished more severely than others?
There's many an example of a guy going in as a petty crook and coming out a hardened criminal--like Dillinger. Michigan City MADE him what he was!

And yes, there are guys who should not be in at all--did a dumb thing, like a boyish prank, hurt no one, have no intention of breaking the law again, and spend years in appalling conditions.
I say the whole system needs overhauled but then again, I've never been to the Big House as an inmate, nor ever worked at one either. this must be the hardest job in the world, and the most unfulfilling.

Excellent points Rendova... maybe you should start a new thread with this one so it doesn't get lost??? I will wait before answer to see if you move it or not... will address it here or there...:D

Well like I said the best thing we have at this time for equal treatment is the death penalty. Maybe in the future there will be a miracle drug or some type of mind machine. I also was not using the feel bad for the other inmate as my only reason for death it is just one of many. Kids do stupid things while growing up is it fair for a good natured kid to serve time with a violent thug , just because they made a mistake? Now instead of there being 1 violent criminal we have created another.

I also agree with Sal about another thread Rendova

PS oh Sal, the death penalty doesn't just protect other inmates it also protects society{innocent}., this is a proven fact.

why the death penalty works.

A} there is NO way for a dead person to kill again

B} tax money that is wasted on crap could go for much better things.

C} protection of nonviolent criminals.

D} protection of guards

E}protection of the innocent when these thugs get out, and they do get out, and they do kill again.

F}At this time there is no cure for a killer

G}the victims loved ones can have some sort of closure. It is sad when the victims have to keep going back to court to see if Johny the child killer is going to be set free.

H}According to many dying would be better then living in jail {so in your own words lets not torture these poor humans}.

I'm sure I could come up with more reasons but this is a good start. Is there any reason to keep these "killers" alive besides the fact that they are humans?????

Good questions and points, mad dog.
IS there any reason to keep certain killers alive--by this I mean, people who have used premeditation and malice aforethought? Having a prior violent background? Meet any of the "aggravating circumstances " in use in most states ( for example, killing for monetary gain, killing a victim under a certain age, killing a law enforcement official, using an explosive, having killed before, using torture, etc.)
Answer-no.

KTB! Kill the bastard!
Show no mercy to domestic terrorists, either.

Originally posted by boykorda
KTB! Kill the bastard!
Show no mercy to domestic terrorists, either.

:confused:

What turns people into monsters? Do you think is is something they are born with (or without)? Is it their upbringing? A chemical imbalance? What has to happen to a person to make them get off by torturing and killing?

I read a book not to long ago written by Jeffrey Dahlmers father. It was so sad. His parents were at a loss to explain it and yet on some level felt that they wetre responsible because they had brought this monster into the world. Jeffrey appeared normal, had a normal upbringing and wasn't beaten or abused in any way. Yet as he came into sexual maturity he started torturing small animals for sexual thrills. Getting older he moved onto young boys.

It leaves us open to guestions like: Are some people just born evil?

Originally posted by Echo2
What turns people into monsters? Do you think is is something they are born with (or without)? Is it their upbringing? A chemical imbalance? What has to happen to a person to make them get off by torturing and killing?

I read a book not to long ago written by Jeffrey Dahlmers father. It was so sad. His parents were at a loss to explain it and yet on some level felt that they wetre responsible because they had brought this monster into the world. Jeffrey appeared normal, had a normal upbringing and wasn't beaten or abused in any way. Yet as he came into sexual maturity he started torturing small animals for sexual thrills. Getting older he moved onto young boys.

It leaves us open to guestions like: Are some people just born evil?

From all that I've read, Echo, killers like Dahmer, BTK, Ted Bundy--that is, the psychopathic serial killer, are made.

Something happens to them in their childhood. They might not even recall what it is, but it is usually, (and please note I said "usually"!) some kind of abusive--either verbally or phsysically, parent,-- in the vast majority of cases, the mother. Or they find out something "bad" about their parent--usually the mother.

Bundy was ok until he found out that his "older sister" was in reality his mother. Dahmer's parents were physically cold and undemonstrative. The Yorkshire Ripper's mom was a prostitute. Ed Gein's mom was just plain cruel and overbearing, a religious wierdo. Son of Sam also had various probs with his mom. I am not saying this is always the triggering factor, in creating a "monster". But, in nine times out of ten, it IS.

I am dying to find out exactly what kind of parent BTK's mother exactly was. I would bet money that she was dominant, bossy, overbearing, smothering, and overly religious. His dad appears to be a nonentity--also common in case studies of this kind. It's like the dad counts for nothing. Chances are, tho, BTK loves his mom, and will insist that he "loves" her til the day he dies.

Which is why he had to keep killing her over and over. He couldn't/wouldn't dare touch his real mom..his victims were merely substitutes, or, in the case of the Otero family, in the way as he went after his primary target--the young girl who prob very much resembled his mom.

you dont have any kids do you echo?

Originally posted by Travh20
you dont have any kids do you echo?

Yep and she has a knife with your name on it. lol.

Actually she is a 27 year old, single, stock brocker in Seattle. Makes a hell of a lot more than I do (which is substantial). Owns a huge house on 9 acreas with a swiming pool, tennis court and a guest house. I'm very proud of her, with all her bucks, she has held onto her humanity and remained sensitive to the world around her; not fallen under the spell of money and the republican party.

the world needs more limosine liberals telling us how greedy us lower middle class conservatives are

Originally posted by mad dog
why the death penalty works.

A} there is NO way for a dead person to kill again

There is also no way to bring back to life one who has been wrongly executed.

B} tax money that is wasted on crap could go for much better things.

It's more expensive to execute someone than to keep them imprisoned.

C} protection of nonviolent criminals.

Segregation works well too.

D} protection of guards

With proper procedures and equipment, guards have minimal risk in handling even the most violent offenders.

E}protection of the innocent when these thugs get out, and they do get out, and they do kill again.

Their getting out is not as inevitable as you make it sound. Prison breaks are very rare occurrences, and certainly don't justify executing anyone.

F}At this time there is no cure for a killer

This also doesn't justify killing anyone.

G}the victims loved ones can have some sort of closure. It is sad when the victims have to keep going back to court to see if Johny the child killer is going to be set free.

You assume that all the families of murder victims want the killers to be executed...not true. It may be "closure' to you, but not everyone wants that kind of closure.

H}According to many dying would be better then living in jail {so in your own words lets not torture these poor humans}.

Let's not kill them either.

I'm sure I could come up with more reasons but this is a good start. Is there any reason to keep these "killers" alive besides the fact that they are humans?????

No, but that's reason enough for me.

mad dog... everything that he said ^ plus everything that I said... you loooooooooooooose...:D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
There is also no way to bring back to life one who has been wrongly executed.

you are correct Vile but I am not talking about questionable convictions only those that have the hard facts of the crime.


It's more expensive to execute someone than to keep them imprisoned.

We have hashed this over before and it is not true, look at how long manson as been in jail at big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for each year. If he had been done away with in a timely fashion it would have been much cheaper. Also how much did it cost when the thugs escaped in texas and killed guards????? I don't know about how you feel but the price of an innocent life is alot higher then that of a killer.


Segregation works well too.

correct, in a perfect world


With proper procedures and equipment, guards have minimal risk in handling even the most violent offenders.

I have a couple of friends and a cousin that work as guards, you are correct there are lots of safety precautions, but you are very wrong if you think these are prefect. These prisoners like the challenge of comming up with new ways to screw around with others, it is like a game to them.


Their getting out is not as inevitable as you make it sound. Prison breaks are very rare occurrences, and certainly don't justify executing anyone.

Once again tell that to the kids wifes parents loved ones of those in Texas. Tell that to the dead ladys of the killer{can't remember his name} that got out for good behaviour, just to kill again. Also again I don't know your feeling but, I feel the loose of even 1 innocent is enough reason to get rid of 1 bad apple.


This also doesn't justify killing anyone.

I'll ask again, show me another way to do things that will100% keep a killer from killing again?????


You assume that all the families of murder victims want the killers to be executed...not true. It may be "closure' to you, but not everyone wants that kind of closure.

Vile lets say you have a loved that gets killed by Billybob. He is convicted and sentenced to life in prison, you feel great. 10 years go by, quess who is getting a chance to get out, YEP good ole Billybob. You get upset and go to is day in court this time he is denied, but what will happen next time or the time after that or after that. Your peacefull happy life just turned upside down because the closure you thought you had was BS. Now lets say Billybob finally does get out, how does that make someone feel?


Let's not kill them either.

That's great tell me or show us the 100% perfect way you have of handling these thugs?


No, but that's reason enough for me.

So we do agree, the only way as of right now is death, but we are scared because they are humans. What makes a human so great? What makes a killer deserve to live next to me or any other innocent? Why would we rate a killer higher then any other type of killing animal? Haven't these"killers" given up their rights by their choice?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
mad dog... everything that he said ^ plus everything that I said... you loooooooooooooose...:D

Sal, I disagree this is not a win lose debate but if it were, I and others won at the begaining :D.

Others and myself have given reasons why we need the DP{sorry Vile for the next statement} The only reason the bleeding hearts can come up with is "they're humans" well to me this means whoooopy sh**. They gave up their position in society as soon as they decided they would torture and kill others. We can kill an animal just for bitting, but we set up a "humankiller" with cable TV, clean sheets, gym, schooling, and 3 squares. Boy oh boy is something wrong with this picture??????????? VERY VERY SAD!!!

I was just wondering if anyone saw the show on A&E last night about this guy BTK{bind toture and kill}. He made his own name and he seemed very proud of his "so called projects". When he totured folks he would call them projects, and he would also brag to the police about his work.

Originally posted by mad dog
Others and myself have given reasons why we need the DP{sorry Vile for the next statement} The only reason the bleeding hearts can come up with is "they're humans" well to me this means whoooopy sh**.

Well mad dog, all I can conclude from that statement is that I have more respect for human life than you do.

They gave up their position in society as soon as they decided they would torture and kill others.

I can agree to that. What I don't agree is that these people have forfeited their humanity. To be honest I think you've decided these people aren't human because you can find no common ground with them, and you would prefer not to belong to the same species as they do. I don't believe any man has the right to take another's life...for any reason.


We can kill an animal just for bitting, but we set up a "humankiller" with cable TV, clean sheets, gym, schooling, and 3 squares. Boy oh boy is something wrong with this picture??????????? VERY VERY SAD!!!

Mad dog, the problem I have with most of your argument is that you tend to list the privileges a killer has in prison (some of which I doubt exist) and then use this as an reason to execute these people...why not just take away their privileges?

You also make the point that life in prison won't work because we let these people out...that's not life imprisonment then is it...I agree that it's a sad thing when a prisoner is released only to kill again...the answer isn't to kill people it's to stop letting them out. The fact that rarely a prisoner escapes and commits more crime is no reason to execute people, any more than the occasional drunk driver is a reason to ban automobiles.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Well mad dog, all I can conclude from that statement is that I have more respect for human life than you do.

I didn't want you to get mad at me again for using the word bleeding heart, it is not ment to be disrespectfull.

Now onto your answer, I disagree with you and say you are less compassionate then me. Reason, I do not want to see you Sal or any other innocent killed by a killer or even effected by them. We are all effected by killers like it or not, alot of tax money is wasted on these violent no cure criminals


I can agree to that. What I don't agree is that these people have forfeited their humanity. To be honest I think you've decided these people aren't human because you can find no common ground with them, and you would prefer not to belong to the same species as they do. I don't believe any man has the right to take another's life...for any reason.

Wow how did you come up with this, I never said they were not human. I said at this time death is the only true 100%{key words} way we have with dealing with them. You know this is true, like it or not. I have to ask what do you believe is justice? Some how these folks need to pay for their crime, they have commited the worse crime of all, what is their justice? I am not talking about punishment but more of what justice fits the taking of an innocent life? What justice would fit the torturing and killing of a young lady or anyone?



Mad dog, the problem I have with most of your argument is that you tend to list the privileges a killer has in prison (some of which I doubt exist) and then use this as an reason to execute these people...why not just take away their privileges?

Not all jails are built the same but everything I listed does happen. Also my reasons for the DP were listed before and I did not mention jail privileges. The jail post was about how screwed up we are to treat them to candy when they deserve rice cake.

I also believe their privileges should be taken away, but will it happen, probably not.

You also make the point that life in prison won't work because we let these people out...that's not life imprisonment then is it...I agree that it's a sad thing when a prisoner is released only to kill again...the answer isn't to kill people it's to stop letting them out.

Once again I agree with you only if it could happen, BUT it does not. It would also have to mean they would not be able to inflict pain while in lock up either.

The fact that rarely a prisoner escapes and commits more crime is no reason to execute people

Escape let out because of good behaviour overcrowding what ever, they still get out and that is a reason for the DP.

any more than the occasional drunk driver is a reason to ban automobiles.

HA, but what do we do with someone that keeps getting DWI/DUI, take their car away, punishment fits the crime. How many people would kill if they new for a fact society believed in an eye for an eye? Yes there would still be killers but I bet there would be alot less??? One thing would be for sure the killer that got caught would never kill again.

Originally posted by mad dog
I was just wondering if anyone saw the show on A&E last night about this guy BTK{bind toture and kill}. He made his own name and he seemed very proud of his "so called projects". When he totured folks he would call them projects, and he would also brag to the police about his work.

I did not watch it last night but have been following the case from just before they caught him. Ironic actually as it was on tv as an unsolved case. They interviewed many people including those who had received the letters from him in the newsroom. Poof, a week later they had arrested him. I wonder if they actually aired it in hopes of tripping him up further because they must have had the floppy by then. Or perhaps the show triggered the floppy mail.

I found it chilling when he revealed the number of people who had escaped their fate with him merely because they had changed their regular schedule.

What horror to find out he installed your security system. That would chill me out!

Originally posted by mad dog
I didn't want you to get mad at me again for using the word bleeding heart, it is not ment to be disrespectfull.

I didn't get mad, and I hope you didn't either...I really couldn't think of a better way to say it.


Now onto your answer, I disagree with you and say you are less compassionate then me. Reason, I do not want to see you Sal or any other innocent killed by a killer or even effected by them. We are all effected by killers like it or not, alot of tax money is wasted on these violent no cure criminals

I appreciate your concern mad dog, but please don't kill anyone to protect me.


Wow how did you come up with this, I never said they were not human.

No, but you do seem to want to treat them that way.


I said at this time death is the only true 100%{key words} way we have with dealing with them. You know this is true, like it or not.

Of course it's true...that doesn't make it right. Executing drunk drivers would make it 100% certain that they would not reoffend too...I don't suspect you'd advocate that however. Another truth is that you are far more likely to be a victim of a drunk driver than you are a murderer.


I have to ask what do you believe is justice? Some how these folks need to pay for their crime, they have commited the worse crime of all, what is their justice? I am not talking about punishment but more of what justice fits the taking of an innocent life? What justice would fit the torturing and killing of a young lady or anyone?

In some cases, I believe justice is not ours to dispense. If you're referring to the "eye for an eye" brand of justice, the only way to achieve that would be to inflict the same horrors on the murderer as they inflicted upon their victims...again, I don't think you're advocating that we engage in torture or other sadism just to satisfy our lust for revenge.

Escape let out because of good behaviour overcrowding what ever, they still get out and that is a reason for the DP.

How? I see it a reason to improve our prisons, and our system, not kill people.


HA, but what do we do with someone that keeps getting DWI/DUI, take their car away, punishment fits the crime. How many people would kill if they new for a fact society believed in an eye for an eye? Yes there would still be killers but I bet there would be alot less??? One thing would be for sure the killer that got caught would never kill again.

People who kill are NOT deterred in the slightest by the death penalty...they don't believe they will be caught, or they don't care if they are.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I did not watch it last night but have been following the case from just before they caught him. Ironic actually as it was on tv as an unsolved case. They interviewed many people including those who had received the letters from him in the newsroom. Poof, a week later they had arrested him. I wonder if they actually aired it in hopes of tripping him up further because they must have had the floppy by then. Or perhaps the show triggered the floppy mail.

I found it chilling when he revealed the number of people who had escaped their fate with him merely because they had changed their regular schedule.

What horror to find out he installed your security system. That would chill me out!

Sal, did you catch any interviews with him, he is one cold dude. He was talking about the acts he did, it would have been like a normal person talking about changing batterys in a flash light. He did not give any remorse about what he has done. At 1st I thought maybe because some of his victims were from the 70's, he couldn't remember. But then he went into detail of all his acts, this guy does not care about fellow human life.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I didn't get mad, and I hope you didn't either...I really couldn't think of a better way to say it.

NO, I would like to thank You, Astra and others that don't allways agree with me, I have learned alot from your thoughts on subjects. I can remember when I 1st came here and was very stuck in my ways/attitude {like others}.



I appreciate your concern mad dog, but please don't kill anyone to protect me.

This is how I see it, someone is attacking me or some other innocent, it is either kill or be killed. I still see the attacker as an attacker even after the fact. The attack may be over with but the killer is still the same and will wait for his/her next victim. Hope that made sense? Think about Sadam what do you think he would do if let out and get some sort of power again? he killed and tortured for pleasure, he will not change.



No, but you do seem to want to treat them that way.

I still don't understand why just because a living creature is labeled human what makes that so special? Why does society place humans in a God like position? bad is bad no matter what face it is wearing.



Of course it's true...that doesn't make it right

It may not make it right but until our tech can evolve more, it is the right choice as of now. We started with a stone wheel then on to wood then onto steel and rubber. These were all correct ways to solve a problem at a certain time, may not have been the best but it was the best for that time in history.

Executing drunk drivers would make it 100% certain that they would not reoffend too...I don't suspect you'd advocate that however. Another truth is that you are far more likely to be a victim of a drunk driver than you are a murderer.

I don't think a drunk driver would attack on purpose they are on a drug. Ted B., BTK, Hitler, John Gasey etc.... where very bright people that knew exactly what they were doing.

You are correct about being a victim by a drunk driver, maybe we should outlaw alcohol{another topic though}



In some cases, I believe justice is not ours to dispense.

interesting, who do we leave it to, GOD? Do you consider yourself an equal to other humans? If so then who better to take care of their own survival and weed out the bad? Why would a creature keep the bad, it would only bring down their own kind. Hitler was probably one of the best serial killers in time look what happens when these bad humans get power. Sorry to use Hitler, but he enjoyed killing, if he had stayed in power who would have been next?

If you're referring to the "eye for an eye" brand of justice, the only way to achieve that would be to inflict the same horrors on the murderer as they inflicted upon their victims...again, I don't think you're advocating that we engage in torture or other sadism just to satisfy our lust for revenge.

I'm glad you brought this up, this is what makes us compassionate{and different from a killer}, instead of torture we just kill without the toture. We are getting rid of the problem not being violent torture hungry monsters. Revenge, this is why we won't let the survivers of the victim inflict the justice because they may enjoy watching the killer suffer.


How? I see it a reason to improve our prisons, and our system, not kill people.

1000000000000% agree with you here, but from what I am noticing is that the only improvement being made is for the prisoners. IF{big IF} we could lock away a killer with no chance of commiting another crime{against anyone}, this would be a step in the right direction. The next step would be to cure, but 1st we need to understand why.



People who kill are NOT deterred in the slightest by the death penalty...they don't believe they will be caught, or they don't care if they are.

True for some but not true for all, plus if they are dead they will not harm another.

Originally posted by mad dog
Sal, did you catch any interviews with him, he is one cold dude. He was talking about the acts he did, it would have been like a normal person talking about changing batterys in a flash light. He did not give any remorse about what he has done. At 1st I thought maybe because some of his victims were from the 70's, he couldn't remember. But then he went into detail of all his acts, this guy does not care about fellow human life.

Yes I saw them interview him. He recited each detail from 20 years ago like it was yesterday it is so etched into his mind. It was as if he were merely speaking of squashing bugs....no remorse. The only time emotion was displayed was when he spoke of the darkest day of his life being when the detectives who had been interrogating him the day before did not show to continue his interview.

Can you imagine... he viewed that as the darkest day of his life. That of course had been done to him on purpose to regain the control.

The next display of emotion was for his lost life with his family. Period... And the reason he stopped... well, he had lost the desire for one thing and the other was a fear that he was not physically strong enough to control the victims. Blank... the guy is morally and emotionally bankrupt.

Originally posted by mad dog
NO, I would like to thank You, Astra and others that don't allways agree with me, I have learned alot from your thoughts on subjects. I can remember when I 1st came here and was very stuck in my ways/attitude {like others}.

Thanks for that mad dog, that was kind of you to say.


This is how I see it, someone is attacking me or some other innocent, it is either kill or be killed. I still see the attacker as an attacker even after the fact. The attack may be over with but the killer is still the same and will wait for his/her next victim. Hope that made sense?

Ok, interesting way to look at it...I can't say I agree, and I'm pretty sure the law doesn't allow for killing in self defense well after the attack took place.


I still don't understand why just because a living creature is labeled human what makes that so special? Why does society place humans in a God like position? bad is bad no matter what face it is wearing.

I for one hope our society treats people better than we treat animals.


It may not make it right but until our tech can evolve more, it is the right choice as of now. We started with a stone wheel then on to wood then onto steel and rubber. These were all correct ways to solve a problem at a certain time, may not have been the best but it was the best for that time in history.

Using this example I think life imprisonment is an evolutionary step beyond the death penalty.


interesting, who do we leave it to, GOD? Do you consider yourself an equal to other humans? If so then who better to take care of their own survival and weed out the bad? Why would a creature keep the bad, it would only bring down their own kind. Hitler was probably one of the best serial killers in time look what happens when these bad humans get power. Sorry to use Hitler, but he enjoyed killing, if he had stayed in power who would have been next?

Now you're drifting into eugenics territory. Scary place to be.

Originally posted by mad dog
You are correct about being a victim by a drunk driver, maybe we should outlaw alcohol{another topic though}
Yeah, it worked real well during prohibition - why not give it a second chance?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Now you're drifting into eugenics territory. Scary place to be.
I personally don't think it's scary at all. As a matter of fact, I'd completely be in favor of wiping out the less desirable amongst us. Think about it - a world of one people, tied by drive, color, superior intelligence, and general health. Hell, I think the concept is freaking brilliant...

It would spell the end for racial tension, idiocy, poverty, genetic defects, and social boundaries. Jesus, who wouldn't want to adopt such a system???

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Jesus, who wouldn't want to adopt such a system???

Me!

Me too

Is it because you don't think you would be one of the genetically superior ones?

I have always thought that we should have a form of social darwinism. Anyone who is too stupid, too lazy or unable to care or find someone to care for them should be eliminated. We could get rid of welfare, social security, aid to dependant children, homelessness, nursing homes, etc. The world is already over populated and it gets worse everyday. In the animal world, only the strong servive to procreate and pass their genes on. I like the idea of the human race not breeding hundreds of thousands of people with 80 IQ's or no desire to excede. It is the smart, savey and healthy ones that should be passing on their genes. Not the stupid, lazy and unhealthy ones.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I personally don't think it's scary at all. As a matter of fact, I'd completely be in favor of wiping out the less desirable amongst us.

Depending on who you ask, you might be in the less desirable group.

Originally posted by Echo2
Is it because you don't think you would be one of the genetically superior ones?

Everyone thinks they're in the upper category. For instance, most of the people promoting the superiority of the white race are low-IQ inbred morons that hardly demonstrate superiority over anything.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Think about it - a world of one people, tied by drive, color, superior intelligence, and general health. Hell, I think the concept is freaking brilliant...


So did Adolf...

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Depending on who you ask, you might be in the less desirable group.

Baaaaaaahahahaha...that should go under quote of the day....

It may sound sick, but for what that BTK killer did. He deserves life in prison. The people that he would be locked up in with would do the job, and no one would have to kill him that wouldn't mind. Alot of people in prison do not deserve to be there. They would see him as somebody that killed for the love of it, thats why he could not stop. He is a sick fuk. He did all of that killing without a thought process and he also had time to think for what he did was wrong. He is somebody that will get his one way or another. The pain that he feels could be fabricated or it could be real. Maybe he will feel remorse for what he did in the after life, because one way or another he will be waiting. Sal, it does not help anything by the way. Killing somebody does not solve anything. It gets you caught up in their problems and you too don't think about the problem of it. Staying away from death is the best answer for life. Thats my look on it.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Well mad dog, all I can conclude from that statement is that I have more respect for human life than you do.


It's my opinion that you have more respect for "sub"-human life than mad dog and others. (myself included, in case you accuse me of making veiled statements and not supporting them)

Originally posted by FreeMind182
Sal, it does not help anything by the way. Killing somebody does not solve anything. It gets you caught up in their problems and you too don't think about the problem of it. Staying away from death is the best answer for life. Thats my look on it.

I agree.

Originally posted by HaVoK
It's my opinion that you have more respect for "sub"-human life than mad dog and others. (myself included, in case you accuse me of making veiled statements and not supporting them)

A valid opinion, I just don't think anyone is qualified to judge the value of another's life.

Originally posted by Echo2
We could get rid of welfare, social security, aid to dependant children, homelessness, nursing homes, etc. The world is already over populated and it gets worse everyday. I like the idea of the human race not breeding hundreds of thousands of people with 80 IQ's or no desire to excede. It is the smart, savey and healthy ones that should be passing on their genes. Not the stupid, lazy and unhealthy ones.


Then right after that, they'd have to do away with the people who that made their living off the criminals, the ignorant and the sick.

Originally posted by golleemollee
Originally posted by Echo2



Then right after that, they'd have to do away with the people who that made their living off the criminals, the ignorant and the sick.

Exactly and then right after that let's do away with people who are not eating in the healthiest way because they will not be cost effective down the road and at the same time lets raise the IQ bar just a tad from a high 110 average to 115...

Oh, and welcome to allforums golleemollee

thanks so much for the welcome.

Yes, and even self-sufficient people with above average IQs have children with birth defects. That little 8 year old paraplegic boy whose parents bring him to church every week would have been "put down" long ago.

No I don't think I would want to live in a society like that, always wondering, who's next?

I think this forum is great we start with talking about BTK and end up talking about killing a young crippled child?????? WTF. :)

Originally posted by Vilepagan
A valid opinion, I just don't think anyone is qualified to judge the value of another's life. I agree. However, I do feel that it's possible to judge a person's actions, and to punish them accordingly. You and I just disagree on what is appropriate when it comes to punishment.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I agree. However, I do feel that it's possible to judge a person's actions, and to punish them accordingly. You and I just disagree on what is appropriate when it comes to punishment.

I know we disagree HaVok, but if it's ok to execute humans, why do many (occasionally yourself) feel it neccessary to refer to those they want to execute as "sub-human"? Isn't it easier to execute someone who isn't as human as you?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I know we disagree HaVok, but if it's ok to execute humans, why do many (occasionally yourself) feel it neccessary to refer to those they want to execute as "sub-human"? Isn't it easier to execute someone who isn't as human as you? Not for me Vile. While I refer to these people as sub-human, I do realize that ultimately they are just as human as I am and no action can change that.

However, their actions do seperate them from the vast majority of humans who live their lives trying to do what is right and get along with their fellow man. Yes, they are still human. However flawed they may be.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I know we disagree HaVok, but if it's ok to execute humans, why do many (occasionally yourself) feel it neccessary to refer to those they want to execute as "sub-human"?

When I use terms like thug, scum, monster, it is because allthough they are very much human they are not in the same line as the sweat old lady down the road that bakes a cake. When I think of Ted B, BTK etc.... I don't think of my wife, kids or any other innocent person.


Isn't it easier to execute someone who isn't as human as you?

I'm not executing the person or human kind I am executing the crime.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Depending on who you ask, you might be in the less desirable group.
This is undoubtedly true, and in response, I'd ask them to prove it.

If your intelligence is above average, and you have a desire to make a difference, then I say you should get a free pass. That being said, my comment wasn't designed to assassinate anyone's race or creed...

In short, I'd be an equal opportunity killer. :)

Originally posted by HaVoK
Not for me Vile. While I refer to these people as sub-human, I do realize that ultimately they are just as human as I am and no action can change that.

However, their actions do seperate them from the vast majority of humans who live their lives trying to do what is right and get along with their fellow man. Yes, they are still human. However flawed they may be.

I can agree with that. :)


Originally posted by mad dog
I'm not executing the person or human kind I am executing the crime.

An interesting way to look at it, but that doesn't change the fact that a human being ends up dead.

Guys, I can totally understand why you might feel that someone deserves to be executed for their crimes. I understand those feelings because I have them myself. After reading about what that guy Duncan allegedly did in Idaho or Montana to that family and those two children, I felt as though here was a guy who deserved the death penalty for what he did. Here's the thing though...how can we be sure people like him aren't just suffering from some form of mental illness? My father was a paranoid schizophrenic. I think it's a matter of pure chance that one of his violent episodes didn't turn out very bad. When I look at someone like Duncan, or Dahmer etc., I see a little bit of my father. There but for the grace of God, or the hand of fate, go each of us.

When I look at someone like Duncan, or Dahmer etc., I see a little bit of my father. There but for the grace of God, or the hand of fate, go each of us.

OK I can understand that about you - but, on the other hand, when someone like Duncan or Dahmer looks at people, they are not looking for someone to understand them and help them, they are looking for a victim or another victim, as the case may be.

Originally posted by golleemollee
OK I can understand that about you - but, on the other hand, when someone like Duncan or Dahmer looks at people, they are not looking for someone to understand them and help them, they are looking for a victim or another victim, as the case may be.

I don't think we should base our punishment on the motives or actions of a deranged person.

Yep, many of these people are suffering from terrible mental disorders.

If i had OCD and they made washing hands illegal, that is not fair because i would have a mental disorder that causes the obsession over things like hand washing.

Can't see what compulsive hand-washing has to do with anything. How does a compulsion like that compare to a terrible mental disorder that makes someone go out and hunt and kill people and put their heads in the frig?

In this hypothetical situation:

The OCD causes me to do this illegal act of washing my hands, and i get killed for it

Their disorders cause them to go out and kidnap and rape and whatnot, sometimes (well, often) murder. And they get killed for it.

There is treatment available depending on each case.

well, let's not talk hypothetical. Let's talk a specific case.

How about Kenneth Bianchi of the Hillside Stranglers.

Poor Ken is suffering from some strange compulsion that makes him go out and impersonate a psychologist and team up with his evil cousin Angelo to rape, torture and murder girls by whatever means they can think of, impersonating the police, whatever. Angelo thinks he's a loose cannon eventually and sends him away where sure enough, he gets them caught. He tries to trick the authorities into thinking he's got multiple personality and plays whatever other games he can think of with the authorities.

Why should an animal like that merit any consideration?

What treatment could change him?

Was he better, worse or just as bad as Angelo Buono?

Washing hands and killing another is like comparing a car to an apple. Lets say they are both illegal, but only one will cause harm to another.

Here is what I have learned we should not kill another because they are part of us {human race} excellent point to make{lets not turn ourselfs into the killer}

Lets kill the killer for many reasons that all add up too 100% problem solved no room for errors. We are caught in a stand off where both sides have a correct answer. The problem is{at this time} one way takes care off the problem while the other leaves society with an open wound{infection}. IF we can ever come up with a perfect lock down or a cure then I will stop supporting the DP, but after weighing each side I have to go with the one that works best.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Guys, I can totally understand why you might feel that someone deserves to be executed for their crimes. I understand those feelings because I have them myself. After reading about what that guy Duncan allegedly did in Idaho or Montana to that family and those two children, I felt as though here was a guy who deserved the death penalty for what he did.
Did this guy deserve the death penalty?

Although not as vicious as some of the other notorious serial killers, this man still sends chills down my spine:

http://www.carpenoctem.tv/killers/fish.html

(from article) For all that, Fish was careless in his crimes, frequently losing jobs "because things about these children came out."

yeah, he should have and a lot sooner too.