Immigration: Does the U.S. need to change its policy or is it okay the way it is?



Study: Half of Calif. newborns are Hispanic
Thursday, February 6, 2003 Posted: 12:42 PM EST (1742 GMT)



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LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- For the first time since the late 1850s, Hispanic births accounted for more than half the births in California, according to a study.

Of the 138,892 births from July to September 2001, 69,672 of them -- 50.2 percent -- were Hispanic babies, according to a review of birth certificate data by the UCLA Center for the Study of Latino Health and Culture. The study was released Wednesday.

In 1980, Hispanics accounted for just 29 percent of California births.

"The long-anticipated Latino majority has arrived," center director David Hayes-Bautista said. "In 2003, it is learning how to walk and will shortly learn to talk."

He added: "They will be defining the American dream. It's in their hands."

Last month, the Census Bureau said Hispanics had surged past blacks as the country's largest minority group. There were 37 million Hispanics as of July 2001, compared with a non-Hispanic black population of 36.1 million.

Non-Hispanic whites accounted for 31.4 percent of the California births, followed by 11.3 percent for Asians and Pacific Islanders, and 6.1 percent for blacks.

The birth rate among Hispanics has been dropping for years, but not as steeply as the birth rates among other ethnic groups. More than two-thirds of the Hispanic babies were born in Southern California, which has more job opportunities than other parts of the state.

At the UCLA Medical Center, 35-year-old Maria Castellanos was recovering after giving birth Monday to her sixth child, Esmeralda.

"Many children, there's a lot of joy," said her 63-year-old husband, Juan, a retired construction worker. "Unfortunately, we don't have enough money."

Nearby, Salvadoran immigrant Magaly Deras, 33, was watching her fourth child, a daughter, sleeping in a plastic bassinet. Her husband, Rafael, said he wants the children to succeed without losing their culture.

"They're Americans because they were born here but they're Latino in their roots," he said. "I want the best for them. I want my son to be a lawyer. I'd like my daughter to be a doctor. ... There's opportunities here for everything."

Another piece of mainstream bs. Notice that the data was takened from birth certificates. Therein lies the bs. For illegals sneak into California an give birth, getting totally free medical care, and these births are not listed. In addition to the illegal entry, Mexican women who have health probelms which the excuse for doctors can't deal with in Mexico are shipped to California, again for totally free medical care.

Now, since there are millions of California citizens who can't get any kind of medical help, does this appear right?

Immigrantion should be on pause for 10yrs or 20yrs or economy can rebuild and we can rebuild our culture.

Tent-

So you're saying that the percentage of Latino babies is actually higher than what this article is reporting since there are many births that are unreported via birth certificates? What does that have to do with mainstream media and how does that change the point of the article?

I agree that it doesn't make sense for illegal immigrants to get free medical care when we can't finance medical care for our current population.

Szukala-

I somewhat agree. Immigration to the U.S. is waaay out of control. I personally think immigration should be cut down drasticly to about 100-500K immigrants a year.

Leper,

How does it change the point of the article? It doesn't unless you live in Commiefornia and know the whole story.

For some 25 years there has been an on-going battle here over border scum coming into California to get State welfare checks, food stamps, and free medical care. It has cost the State billions and is costing more billions. Any informed reporter knows these facts, and for that reporter to ignore those facts means that he/she is giving out distorted bs.

An off topic comment. Since Bush-itler is establishing a police state, any scum caught crossing the border illegally should be shot on the spot. That is the only diplomacy and law such human garbage understands.

Originally posted by Leper

Szukala-

I somewhat agree. Immigration to the U.S. is waaay out of control. I personally think immigration should be cut down drasticly to about 100-500K immigrants a year.


No too hard to control that it is easier to leave no cracks in the walls. So no one gets in. Then we start legalizing all the illegal immigrants.

"No too hard to control that it is easier to leave no cracks in the walls. So no one gets in. Then we start legalizing all the illegal immigrants."

Szuk-

I have to disagree with this quote; legal "cracks" are not the reason people get into the U.S. illegally. Illegal immigrants are completely ignoring the laws and simply swimming across the Rio Grande. I say we should still deport anyone who got here or is getting here illegally. Otherwise, you're just rewarding the people who show no respect for the law.

Fatal doese of lead is still cheaper, and it guarantees there will be no repeat offenders. Overlooking practical solutions can be expensive.

Even if you think that there are too many immigrants, "zero immigration" policy is a counter-productive measure. Why ?
Because if illegal immigrants live in fear of being thrown back to their country, they will :
1- Keep staying hidden, allowing no control upon their number and socail behaviour, paying no taxes, etc…
2- Never go back to their country for holidays or familial reasons, in fear that they could not get into the USA afterwards. This implies that they will make their family come with them if possible, and have babies in the USA.

A less restrictive policy, allowing people to stay and work in the USA and cross the borders whenever they need it, would make people much more mobile and less likely to stay in the USA.

Even if they are illegal, immigrants are not criminals. They are people who try to get a better life by working hard in a foreign country, were they are not welcome. They risk their life for this.They deserve respect as any human being.
Remember who were your ancestors ? Immigrants. They had the luck of being welcome in a country open to people from all around the world.

I agree with that but i don't say crack down on them. Stop immigration completely not crack a wipe. Just stop most of the flow coming in. We can't stop mexico. But we can stop immigration from nations across the seas.

AstraPILEOF>>>,

Stopping illegal immigration is "counter productive"?

Let illegal immigrants come and go freely?

Let millions of them work in the U.S. while U.S. citizens can't find a job-in large part because there are already too many garbage people working in sweat shops for pennies?

Illegal immigrants are not criminals? Guess you've never heard of the Immigration Laws as per the U.S. Code.

Tentmaker made a good point that they are taking citizens jobs. But morally it isn't wrong to want to be American. But we must slow down immigration and let America rebuild.

Reponse to Astrapol's ignorance:

Americans Protest "La Reconquista"

Over 300 Americans from across the U.S. gathered in Washington, D.C., April 22-25 for Immigration Reform Awareness Week '98. Meeting under the banner of a U.S. map with the word "FULL" across it, they fanned out to the offices of congressmen and senators and presented the case for immigration reform.
..


One of their key arguments dealt with the wholesale invasion of the American Southwest, especially California, by Mexicans, legal and illegal. Many of these people see themselves as part of a process called "la reconquista" -- the reconquest or retaking of land that once belonged to Mexico. These raiding parties, at least according to some of their leaders, will retake these lands and re-establish Spanish.

Discussing a new Mexican law permitting dual citizenship. Jose Angel Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General in Los Angeles told an audience at the Southwestern University School of Law, February 6, 1998: "I think we are practising la Reconquista in California."

Glenn Spencer warns of Armed Conflict with Mexico

"The Mexican government is actively supporting the invasion of the United States, while our government looks the other way," says Glenn Spencer who heads the California-based Voice of Citizens Together.
On April 24, Spencer organized an impromptu protest attended by over 60 people outside the Mexican Embassy which is just a three blocks down from the White House on Pennsylvania Avenue. At this protest, James Wainscoat, a much-decorated former special service officer and Vietnam veteran, dramatically burned a Mexican flag, as the immigration reformers cheered and chanted: "Hey, hey, ho, ho, reconquista's got to go!"

.....



"This is a symbolic act protected by the First Amendment," Spencer told the cheering crowd. "Our country is being invaded by Mexico with hostile intentions. What we're doing here is warning Americans. So, when it blows up, they can't say we didn't tell them, when the blood starts flowing on the border and in L.A. We're telling about la reconquista."

Earlier at a press conference on Capitol Hill a number of speakers including minorities told of the pressures caused by the immigration invasion.

Terry Anderson, Black Immigration Critic

"I don't want to have to speak a foreign language -- Spanish -- to work at McDonald's," said Terry Anderson, a black spokesman and a resident of South Central L.A. "Our kids lose half their school day because of instruction in a foreign language."

Another black spokesman, Rev. Jesse Peterson, who said he'd once been taught to hate whites, has now changed his views. "Right now, in South Central L.A. there's warfare between blacks and Hispanics. Blacks are being pushed out by illegals, especially in the Compton area."

Rev. Jesse Peterson, anti-immigration spokesman

A Chinese spokesman Gil Wong questioned the whole U.S. immigration policy: "Minorities are at the bottom of the economic ladder. Why bring in immigrants to compete with them?"

Joyce Tarnow, a Florida environmentalist, warned that America was being swamped with people and the environment was in peril. "Our Florida Growth Management Act allows for 93-million people!" It's a farce, she said. "Our wells suck sand because the expanding cities suck so much water from the aquafer. We're losing the Florida Keys, our only North American reef system to toxic wastes. The damage to the Everglades imperils the Florida Panther and other endangered species. I feel betrayed by environmental groups who say immigration in not an environmental issue."

One of the main organizers was Joe Delaiden of the Midwest Coalition for Immigration Reform. "Bill Gates is not an American," he told the press conference. "He's an exploiter of labour who happens to live in America. He just wants to maximize his profits by importing cheap labour and, when he lays them off, we pay. How much money does Gates need? He only has $39-billion." Gates is a special target of immigration reformers as he and a number of other major businesses lobbied hard to gut the immigration reform measures of 1996 in their quest for cheap, imported foreign labour.

Earlier in the day, at a breakfast in the Museum of the National Guard, Congressman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) lamented America's loss of control of its borders. "If you're an illegal alien in this country and you haven't committed a felony, your chances of being deportd are 1 in 100," he said criticizing the lack of government will to deport the hordes of illegals who have entered the U.S. since 1965.

Smith, one of the most diligent immigration reformers in Congress, pointed out that the last 30 years have been an aberration -- a time of unprecedented immigration. "From 1900 to 1950, immigration averaged 400,000 per year," Smith said. "Since 1990, it has averaged over 1-million."

Paul Fromm, editor of the CANADIAN IMMIGRATION HOTLINE, attended Immigration Reform Awareness Week '98 as an interested Canadian observer.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Even if you think that there are too many immigrants, "zero immigration" policy is a counter-productive measure. Why ?
Because if illegal immigrants live in fear of being thrown back to their country, they will :
1- Keep staying hidden, allowing no control upon their number and socail behaviour, paying no taxes, etc…
2- Never go back to their country for holidays or familial reasons, in fear that they could not get into the USA afterwards. This implies that they will make their family come with them if possible, and have babies in the USA.

A less restrictive policy, allowing people to stay and work in the USA and cross the borders whenever they need it, would make people much more mobile and less likely to stay in the USA.

Even if they are illegal, immigrants are not criminals. They are people who try to get a better life by working hard in a foreign country, were they are not welcome. They risk their life for this.They deserve respect as any human being.
Remember who were your ancestors ? Immigrants. They had the luck of being welcome in a country open to people from all around the world.

You make a good point. Basically, is it practical to suggest deporting illegal immigrants? This is a question I can't answer. I just don't have enough information to know how difficult it is to detect and locate illegal immigrants. I support the principle of deporting illegals but can't form a definitive opinion until I know the costs or abilities of our government to carry out such a proposal.

However....

"Remember who were your ancestors ? Immigrants. They had the luck of being welcome in a country open to people from all around the world."

You never fail to hear this point from the immigrants. It's the most irritating argument to me too, so I'm going to take the time to shred it....

Basically, the problem with this argument is its failure to recognize that times change. More specifically, I have two primary reasons why I disregard it.

One, it relies on holding a contemporary population to the standards of the ancestors of the contemporary population, which is just insane. I mean, I probably have ancestors that massacred Jews, conquered and looted Constantinople, and enslaved African-Americans. Does this mean I should be expected to follow in their footsteps? Hell no, nor should I have to support immigration.

Two, the United States was once a big heap of loosely governed, undeveloped land. Under such conditions, it was good policy to encourage immigration in order to settle and develop the land. This obviously is not the case in today's society. Today, land is largely developed and assaulted by pollution. The population is forced to urbanize. Immigration just aggravates such problems. Additionally, we now have an expansive government this nation has worked hard to develop. This expansive government includes social welfare programs, which immigrants do not hesitate to cash in on. The resources that support these programs don't fall from trees; they come from the people who have worked all their life in this nation. So basically, illegal immigrants are cashing in on the free loot provided by legitimate citizens. Basically, we're breeding ourselves out of the gene pool. Our birth rates go down due to the difficulty of raising children in a heavily-taxed, over-worked society, while people just crossing the border still adhere to the third-world standards of "have as many children as you can to counter high mortality rates," except they don't have high (at least not nearly as high)mortality rates since they are reaping the benefits of our hard-earned social programs.

Immigration, the way it is today, is simply a slow suicide of the American population.

And that, Astrapol, is a hardcore racist point of view dressed up in inoffensive language.

It is no different than my straight-forward language that says, Get rid of the scum and the Scum-sucking Liberals who support such suicidal policies.

Originally posted by Leper

So basically, illegal immigrants are cashing in on the free loot provided by legitimate citizens. Basically, we're breeding ourselves out of the gene pool. Our birth rates go down due to the difficulty of raising children in a heavily-taxed, over-worked society, while people just crossing the border still adhere to the third-world standards of "have as many children as you can to counter high mortality rates," except they don't have high (at least not nearly as high)mortality rates since they are reaping the benefits of our hard-earned social programs.

Immigration, the way it is today, is simply a slow suicide of the American population.

1- Explain me how illegal immigrants could be living on welfare since they stay hidden from the social services ? They usually have to work harder than any native american to achieve a very low standard of living !
2- Every demographic study shows that, after one generation, the immigrants behaviour becomes the same than the local population. That is just logical : they live in the same country with the same problems. Taxes, expensive housing, higher life expectancy and standard of living, better education… Their birth rate drops and becomes similar to the average.
Of course, this is quicker if they are well accepted by the society in which they live, and longer if they stay illegal and in a ghetto.

Your arguments are exactly the same that were used against Irish immigrants at the beginning of the century, or against italians during the twenties. We also have heard the same in France towards Italians or Polish during the twenties or towards North African immigrants during the eighties. Result ? All these populations are now quite well integrated and theit lifestyle and birth rate are similar to the average.

It is painfully obvious that Astrapol has no idea of who the majority of criminals are that populate the jails and prisons of the nation. The reason for their being the imprisoned majority is that they are the ones committing the majority of the felony offenses in the nation.

From where do most felons come? From the barrios and ghettos of the nation. Why do most criminals come from those rat holes? Because they and their parents are usually social parasites.

Why does society continue to put up with social parasites? Because of SCUM-SUCKING LIBERALS.

Originally posted by astrapol2
1- Explain me how illegal immigrants could be living on welfare since they stay hidden from the social services ? They usually have to work harder than any native american to achieve a very low standard of living !
2- Every demographic study shows that, after one generation, the immigrants behaviour becomes the same than the local population. That is just logical : they live in the same country with the same problems. Taxes, expensive housing, higher life expectancy and standard of living, better education… Their birth rate drops and becomes similar to the average.
Of course, this is quicker if they are well accepted by the society in which they live, and longer if they stay illegal and in a ghetto.

Your arguments are exactly the same that were used against Irish immigrants at the beginning of the century, or against italians during the twenties. We also have heard the same in France towards Italians or Polish during the twenties or towards North African immigrants during the eighties. Result ? All these populations are now quite well integrated and theit lifestyle and birth rate are similar to the average.

Once again, just cause I have ancestors that benefited from it doesn't mean I have to support it. If I were able to advise Native Americans (aka Indians) 300 years ago with what I know now, I'd tell them to fight European immigration every step of the way.

And no, my argument can't be the same used in the early part of the century. First, social programs then were peanuts compared with what they are now. Our social programs did not grow into the monsters they are now until after the American "Great Depression" in the 1930s (Now you're making me wonder if the immigration and economic disaster could be linked). Second, there wasn't the problem of "third world" values being imported into a "first world" society. I don't have the information, but I'll assume there wasn't the disparity in "birth rates" that exists now (the curbing of birth rates in first world nations has been only recently recognized). Of course, birth rate differences is only one of MANY imported values that endanger the developed society...More examples? How about less regard for law, less value placed on education, bad health habits, and I'm sure there are plenty more out there. Believe me, these aren't arguments that were used a century ago.

And yes, immigrants do benefit from social welfare programs. They receive medical care and their children will be cared for, no matter what penalties may be imposed on their parents(unfortunately).

Do I believe that one day they will integrate like all other immigrants in history? Sure, but at the cost of breeding out today's society. Will it be a good thing? Maybe for the immigrants. But I'm not an immigrant and I wish to preserve my genes and my culture.

1- Explain me how illegal immigrants could be living on welfare since they stay hidden from the social services ?

As an adendum to what Leper said about healthcare to anyone that gets hurt in our country, any child that is in our country for any reason gets the right to public schooling. And education, in case you haven't noticed, is becoming very, very expensive, and will get much more expensive before all is said and done.

Originally posted by Leper


I don't have the information, but I'll assume there wasn't the disparity in "birth rates" that exists now (the curbing of birth rates in first world nations has been only recently recognized). Of course, birth rate differences is only one of MANY imported values that endanger the developed society...More examples? How about less regard for law, less value placed on education, bad health habits, and I'm sure there are plenty more out there. Believe me, these aren't arguments that were used a century ago.

Well if you do not have the information try to get it ! A simple search on google was enough to fing this :

from "the italian immigrant in america - dreams and the harsh realities
By Deborah K. Millemaci" (http://www.virtualitalia.com/gene/immigrant.shtml)


"Upon entry into the new world, Italian immigrants were made to feel unwelcome as they were greeted with numerous discriminations. The American press printed cruel and biased remarks in their descriptions of Italian immigrants. Italians were labeled as ignorant, poor, unskilled and lazy. References often linking Italians to the Mafia were also included in these articles, and the Italian was portrayed only in the negative. This caused residents in the community to view the Italian immigrant as a threat to their social and economic status. They saw Italian immigrants as inferior, illiterate, dirty, lazy, and unable to contribute positively to society. "

Reminds you of something ?

I also found this :

(quote from North County Times : http://www.nctimes.net/news/2001/20011125/51345.html )

"Drop in Latino birthrate leads to new population projections

Earlier this month, regional demographers lowered their long-range population forecast for San Diego County because of a surprising drop in Latino birthrates over the last decade.
(…)

"My guess is that because of the high cost of living in the county, there has been a homogenization of the Latino population towards a higher income," said Fernando Soriano, a professor of human development at Cal State San Marcos who serves on the U.S. Census Bureau's Advisory Committee on the Hispanic Population. "A higher income population tends to have a lower birthrate."

The issue is not immigration - it is illegal "immigration"

The US pulls resources as needed from other labor pools, mostly technical jobs coming in as H1B visa's (sponsored by a US company) and then converting to a green card & then maybe in the longterm converting to naturalized citizen.

By banning immigration you simply stop this & hurt the US economy. What you would not stop is the illegal immigration that occurs constantly - this is the issue.

It is understandable that people want to get to the US by any means and have a better life, and not all of these end up sponging off the state (many create value by immense amounts of hard work) - but some come illegally and bring no value. Ultimately we cannot pay for these people no matter how difficult their situation is.

astrapol-

First off, DrewM does have a point. Let me remind you that I'm not against ALL immigration. My main concern is the illegal immigration (although I'd llike to see legal immigration cut too). As I've said before, I think immigration should be cut down to a few hundred thousand people per year (starting with illegal immigrants), or a cut of around 80%.

Me: "More examples? How about less regard for law, less value placed on education, bad health habits, and I'm sure there are plenty more out there. Believe me, these aren't arguments that were used a century ago. "

You and Your Quote: "Upon entry into the new world, Italian immigrants were made to feel unwelcome as they were greeted with numerous discriminations. The American press printed cruel and biased remarks in their descriptions of Italian immigrants. Italians were labeled as ignorant, poor, unskilled and lazy. References often linking Italians to the Mafia were also included in these articles, and the Italian was portrayed only in the negative. This caused residents in the community to view the Italian immigrant as a threat to their social and economic status. They saw Italian immigrants as inferior, illiterate, dirty, lazy, and unable to contribute positively to society. "

Reminds you of something ?"

Okay, I'll believe there are SOME similarities between my arguments today and those of 1920s. It really doesn't make a difference to me; I very may well have supported the position of anti-Italian immigration if I lived back then. If my allegations are true (and I'm certain they are), my position is the same.

The inclusion of the quote below puzzles me.

"Drop in Latino birthrate leads to new population projections

Earlier this month, regional demographers lowered their long-range population forecast for San Diego County because of a surprising drop in Latino birthrates over the last decade.
(…)

"My guess is that because of the high cost of living in the county, there has been a homogenization of the Latino population towards a higher income," said Fernando Soriano, a professor of human development at Cal State San Marcos who serves on the U.S. Census Bureau's Advisory Committee on the Hispanic Population. "A higher income population tends to have a lower birthrate."

I just said in my previous post: "Do I believe that one day they will integrate like all other immigrants in history? Sure, but at the cost of breeding out today's society. Will it be a good thing? Maybe for the immigrants. But I'm not an immigrant and I wish to preserve my genes and my culture."

You see, my concern is not with whether immigrants will adjust (Although it IS generally acknowledged that "naturalization" is occuring at a slower rate among today's immigrants than in the past), my concern is that it will be at citizens' expense.

And there still remains the unaddressed point that citizens are bearing the financial burden of social welfare programs supporting immigrants, and are being rewarded with seeing their culture and genes smothered. This is a very significant reason why I want to see immigration cut so drasticly.

This is a nation of immigrants. Nothing wrong with immigration as long as they come through the front door (ie Ellis Island of old) as many of our ancestors did. We need to shut the back gates, the cracks in the fence and the basement windows to the hordes of illegals.

And also lock up the refrigerator. Many of those immigrants (not all) are lazy bums who live off of the generosity of the government. They need to get jobs and support themselves.

BORG AS MODERATOR OF ANY BOARD IS AN INSULT.