Well.. Just had Jehovah Witnesses tell me "They had to go as they had a prior arrangment" simply because i fired a load of questions at them :) . I did ask if they could come back round though, with enough time to sit in and have a chat with me.

Blob and others if you could help me out with this. Specific to their way of thinking, I need some awesome questions that they really wont know how to answer.

Im formulating my own now, but he said there would be two of them and I have no problem going up against them by myself, i just want source material to go by.

Ill be going to Infidels to boost my knowledge base as well.

There main point the whole time was "How could this all possibly be created without an Intellegent Designer" to which i quickly answered back... "Who created the Intellegent Designer", there responce annoyingly was "It says he has always existed" (nice to know they have decided on gender for it)

All questions are welcome, Im gonna formulate a bunch of them.

You are lucky, if they came to my door i would have a field day!

I'll conger up some questions for you

The Witnesses believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, yet the Bible (maybe not their version, i am unsure) tells us how man is flawed.
Ask them who wrote the Bible- if they say a man, then how can it be without errors? if they say it fell from the heavens, well you can figure out how to slap them there.

They shoot down the idea of a Holy Trinity, although Jesus clearly spelled out he was part of a great triune. Ask them why they disagree with their savior.

If jesus is love then why is he going to come back and kill all the unfaithful, because when he was here earlier he preached to love one another no matter what affiliations or views or practices. (they believe in 'armageddon')

They despise governments, they do not salute flags, vote, hold office, join the military, or talk about political views.
Ask them why they hate the governments that allow them to gather and hold assembly.


Notice these are all questions attacks the Jehovah's Witnesses, not just Christianity in general. These would be of more use to get their steam going.

Be sure to include those Loki, im sure they'll hate it

Nice one Evakien, I think as well that the fact that I invited them back they probably think they have a shot at "turning" me. He actually said to me

"Look at this plant next to us, look at how its little branches turn into smaller branches with leaves on... did this just appear, no it was created"

Its statements like that that leave us, not unable to answer back, but stunned into submission by the simplicity of their mind and need to latch to the idea that everything is the cause and result of God

My meeting is on monday, so im gonna be researching constantly untill then. Damn shame Atheists havent grouped together to create some beautiful little pamphlet else id make them read that whilst i sit there smiling.

cool, did you decide to use my questions?

And on another note: that questionnare on terrorism sure was hard :( heheh

Hi Loki.

I'm not sure if I can offer much especially with regard to bible stuff - but you certainly got the intelligent designer rebuttal bang on! A visit to Infidels sounds a good idea too.

I like evakian's questions but wouldn't go in for the trinity (http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/) thing - I'd imagine they'd have watertight responses for that which are actually pretty valid. (Ask a theist to criticise other religious beliefs and watch their IQ shoot up 30 points!)

Its statements like that that leave us, not unable to answer back, but stunned into submission by the simplicity of their mind and need to latch to the idea that everything is the cause and result of GodPrecisely! To be honest I'd be tempted to abandon logic and reason - it won't reach them. Instead adopt the very strategies they use before they get the chance to do it to you: appeal to wonder, appeal to emotion, appeal to ignorance, bombard them with "amazing facts" and so on.

Examples might be...

Wonder: "The world is such an amazing place it can't possibly have such a mundane explanation like "Jehova". There has to so much more to it. I find it incredible that I am conscious and emotional, my brain seems so powerful and rich I can't imagine it's all due to a simple thing like a soul." etc

Emotion: "How can you possibly value this life if you think an eternal, better one awaits? How can you reduce the wonderful experience of being me to a mere test for a strict master?"

Ignorance: "We know so little about the universe and reality. There must be so many wonderful things out there we have yet to discover. Things you and I can't possibly imagine. I don't see how you can be 100% certain unless you know everything there is to know, which you dont?"

Bombardment: Confuse them! "Intelligent Design? But don't you think Michael Behe's irreducible complexity argument is undermined by the existance of zygotes that become fully formed humans with functioning eyes? Also, surely you agree fine-tuning is undermined by statistically analysis because the probability distribution of alternative possible multi-verses is unquantifiable and if not, how come?" etc... (it doesn't matter if you don't make much sense. the point is to hit them with loads of intimidating vocab to show you are very familiar with pseudo-scientific arguments).

Well I'm not sure if that is what you were after?

So telling them that their doctrine interferes with the teachings of who they worship (the trinity argument) shouldn't be used because you think they will have surefire ways to combat it?Because when Mormons came to my door they definitely 'did not shoot up 30 points in IQ' just had no answer and walk off angry at me, which is also contradictory to Jesus' teachings.

I liked some of Blob's stuff, although that may be hard to execute.
They will interupt with a bible passage or proclaim that you are a lost soul looking for answers in teh wrong places.
Don't argue with scientists on science unless you are going to use scientific terms and evidence. That is why i chose to use Witness-belief based questions

Ask them how many points they get twords making it into heaven for each person they harass. I know it is a requirement in their church to do witnessing, just wondering how much of it they have to do.

My mother did a simalar thing with the JW's years ago. She agreed to listen and talk to them if they would listen and talk to her first. She pulled out her ironing board and Iron and clothes and spent 45 minutes telling them about her problems. Their eyes got wide and they just knew they had a new succer on the line. She taked to them for almost an hour as she ironed. She contined ironing as they talked to her for about an hour. At the end, she said ironing had always bored her, thanked them for the company, and walked them to the door.

She was a VERY devout Roman Catholic but didn't bother to mention that to them.

Loki, you might check out this page from the Freedom from Religion Foundation website. It may have useful information.

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/

careful with the trinity and Jesus thing. They do not believe Jesus is God but merely his son.

One time we saw them across the street so my cousin and I put on black makeup all over our faces, put on Satanic symbols, and weird T-shirts and answered the door. It was rather funny. We told them we were into Witchcraft and that we had no interest into converting...haha the looks on their faces was priceless.

Originally posted by Evakian
So telling them that their doctrine interferes with the teachings of who they worship (the trinity argument) shouldn't be used because you think they will have surefire ways to combat it?Yes. Compare the watchtower's well-written trinity page to, say, their ridiculous blood transfusion (http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/index.htm?article=article_07.htm) page. The trinity makes no sense and was added to christianity very late to stop it looking like polytheism. JWs have taken the different route of saying Jesus is not God.

If mormons don't believe in the trinity either (is that so? - I didn't know) and couldn't put an argument together they were idiots. You'd be lucky to pull that off with JWs.
Don't argue with scientists on science unless you are going to use scientific terms and evidence. I agree. However debunking pseudoscience with pseudoscientists is an entirely different matter.

Loki, just ask them if they'ld like to see a grown man naked :D Worked for me years back, after all I'm part of the creation :D

Originally posted by Blob
The trinity makes no sense and was added to christianity very late to stop it looking like polytheism


Not really seeing as how his apostles brought these matters up themselves, and Jesus himself did too.

Originally posted by Evakian
Not really seeing as how his apostles brought these matters up themselves, and Jesus himself did too. Would you like to offer any evidence for that?

Simply tell them you believe everything that they just told you.
Tell them that you believe that they are the only true religion.
Tell them that you agree that to be in heaven is far better than being here on earth.
Then ask them if their entire life is spent to attain heaven and see Jesus.
When they say yes........

Then offer to help them go see Jesus right now...that you have a gun.

See if they stick around.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Simply tell them you believe everything that they just told you.
Tell them that you believe that they are the only true religion.
Tell them that you agree that to be in heaven is far better than being here on earth.
Then ask them if their entire life is spent to attain heaven and see Jesus.
When they say yes........

Then offer to help them go see Jesus right now...that you have a gun.

See if they stick around.

thanks for the afternoon gaffaw... that was good...

lol well this is england so id have to use a knife, But i think that would have much the same effect.

Im actually starting to brick it, since they are clearly going to be firing on all cylinders and Im not sure how up on their "fighting atheist" type questions they are.

is brick it a slang term for give up?

Its an english slang term for worrying, I guess slang you would have thats relevent would be "shitting myself" or something to that effect.

Truth of the matter actually is that im just concerned that Ill look a muppet.

everyone i know would say 'worrying' using such profanity isnt too too common to witness around me

The day i say 'shitting myself' (never have and dont plan on saying that) will only possibly happen the day WW3 breaks out with China

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Its an english slang term for worrying, I guess slang you would have thats relevent would be "shitting myself" or something to that effect.

Truth of the matter actually is that im just concerned that Ill look a muppet.
---------------------------------------

Yep, off to hell you go, if you screw up! ;)

Honestly though, you will have no effect on these people.
They only hear what they say. Your words are of the unbeliever,
influenced by the devil.

Maybe you could light some candles, have incense burning, pentagram on the floor in chalk, black robe, upside down cross, chanting music in the background, chicken hanging over the door, just to set the stage in your favor.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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Yep, off to hell you go, if you screw up! ;) he he. But as it happens JWs don't believe in hell.

Originally posted by Blob
he he. But as it happens JWs don't believe in hell.
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Yeh, but Jere already told us where we are going.

Originally posted by Blob
he he. But as it happens JWs don't believe in hell.

They did mention to me that no where in the entire bible did it mention hell.

They must have let their dog chew up some of the pages :D

So - did the JWs turn up yesterday loki?

Yeh, but at about 5pm which was about 2 hours before I asked him too, and about an hour before I get home from work. My dad chatted to him for about 15 minutes and then he left. Although since my dad believes in "something" in that kind of english way, (believes it but would never, prayer or ever go to church) the JW probably thinks he is on to a winner with me.

Im not sure if he did that deliberatly to avoid me or whether he did just honestly forget. He didnt strike me as that kind of deceitful type of person.

He has said that he will come back round later after his holiday which is cool as Id written questions and actually got stuff ready :) but I'm not upset about waiting

I will keep you guys updated and this just gives me more time. The only thing I hadnt properlly found out, that i wanted to have, was the point about Hell not being mentioned. But now I can cover that as well.

*** Also im going to buy a digital recorder on friday and record the whole thing, and post the mp3 for you guys, which will save me from wrongly quoting him ***

Capital idea, i can't wait to hear it

my dad believes in "something" in that kind of english way, (believes it but would never, prayer or ever go to church) lol. My dad is exactly the same (except he's scottish).

hehe loki, you should just work on their terms.......find out where they live or where their church is and go knocking on their door unannounced at your leisure................

It also would be really funny if you did have some pamphlets ready or some notes ROFL....

lol you know thats actually a really great idea, going round denouncing christianity/catholicism/buddhism etc but without accepting that there isnt something out there.

Should we have a thread for the creation of this leaflet.

going round denouncing christianity/catholicism/buddhism etc but without accepting that there isnt something out there. - Loki

Catholicism is a part of christianity, around 55% or so of it.
As for the leaflet, knock yourself out, how long do you want it?

Originally posted by Evakian
going round denouncing christianity/catholicism/buddhism etc but without accepting that there isnt something out there. - Loki

Catholicism is a part of christianity, around 55% or so of it.
As for the leaflet, knock yourself out, how long do you want it?

Well theres the temptation to just say "Read the old testament... see what I mean" , but Id miss out on all the pictures of a safer eutopia with lovely fields and familys have picnics so Ill have to think on it.

I could go the JW way and assume everyone i hand the leaflet to's life is awful and Its my civic duty to save them, thus wording it in a such a way that would explain that.

yea, start a leaflet hehe and hand it out to wee little ones coming out of church on sundays

The leaflet should encourage a revolutionary spirit amongst JWs. They believe only 144000 will go to heaven and that most of them have already been selected. The rest will reside on earth in the afterlife under the rule of the elite 144000. Therefore, when you think about it, it is in the average JWs interest to deconvert peers thereby reducing competition for being one of the 144000.

A slogan might be:

What do we want?
Afterlife equality!
When do we want it?
For all eternity after the apocalypse!

They believe only 144000 will go to heaven and that most of them have already been selected- Blob

So how is there motivation for them to go out and convert people?!?!?!?!?! very odd

What do we want?
Afterlife equality!
When do we want it?
For all eternity after the apocalypse!- Blob

heheh

Originally posted by Evakian
They believe only 144000 will go to heaven and that most of them have already been selected- Blob

So how is there motivation for them to go out and convert people?!?!?!?!?! very odd

What do we want?
Afterlife equality!
When do we want it?
For all eternity after the apocalypse!- Blob

heheh

The motivation for them to go out and convert others in spite of only 144,000 being in the elite group is that in order to be included in the elite group one must convert others...the more the bigger the brownie points :D If one does not convert or try to save others one can not be saved...Talk about catch 22...

Actually thats not a bad idea for a religion. You simply force them to go out and help people in order to be saved thus insuring a constant spread of the religion and a whole bunch of people trying to help people.

Of course it doesnt work like that and they replaced the word "help" with "save" thus destroying the probably good intentions of its creator.

Its like that Pay if Forward, You must help 5 people do something they couldnt do on their own, then they must help 5 people etc etc.