So South Korea has learned how to clone dogs.

Now no Korean shall ever go hungry ;) hehe jk

So what do you think about the progress we are making worldwide with cloning?

The ability to succesfully clone (on their own) and transplant human organs (excluding the brain) will be the saviour of medical technology.

Alongside that, the ability to identify and be able to clone/transplant the specific chemicals in the human brain would also be a huge breakthrough.

Basically I think its amazing because we are working towards curing "illness" as a whole. Paedaphiles will have the genetic chemical inbalance changed etc along with all other cases of incorrect social behaviour.

This extremist groups will continue to say this is destroying human nature, but thankfully we can ignore them and continue to research things of this nature anyway.

Stemcell, Cloning, Nanobiology. Its all leading to such an amazing way of life that I get excited just thinking about it.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Stemcell, Cloning, Nanobiology. Its all leading to such an amazing way of life that I get excited just thinking about it.

I agree 100%. But you can count on religious extremists to do everything in their power to stop the advancement of knowledge and science.

It holds much to help us medically, curing of diseases, more food if ever needed, organ transplants.

What groups claimed this was 'destroying human nature'?

This is going to help us, but you two seem to fail to understand why people are against it.

Animals can be cloned, there is no problem. Individual organs can be cloned, there is no problem. Adult stem cells can be used to do the research, there is no problem. This will help us all physically take care of ourselves in the future.

But when humans have to be harvested and slaughtered (whether cloned or infant stem cells) there is a severe moral dilemma that brings troubles.
And also- if FULL humans (not individual organs, those are fine) are made synthetically, they are viewed as having no soul because they were not created naturally. There is no love involved in creating them (Rape resulting in pregnancy brings a child not created out of love either, you might say. But the child is carried and loved, or not loved if the mother has certain mental issues or personal problems, but at least the baby is being nutured and cared for and touched.).

Soulless human beings wandering the Earth is not exactly a happy vision for many. Soulless human beings (or infant stem cells for research) being slaughtered for parts is not exactly a happy vision for many.

So until they can find away around those obstacles, they will have to take flak for this.

Otherwise, cloning is going to change the world forever.

Originally posted by Evakian
But when humans have to be harvested and slaughtered (whether cloned or infant stem cells) there is a severe moral dilemma that brings troubles.

You have been listening to too many religious wackjobs. NO ONE, not the scientists or the medical profession has EVER suggested harvesting and slaughtering human beings. That is scare tactic crap that the churches have been screaming since we first discovered how to print DNA.

I assume you are smart enough to know that two cells in a patrie dish do not constitute a human being.

i listen to religious whackjobs?? whoa...i better check this out :D

Yea, i do recall the use of clones to harvest organs was mentioned by several genetics research corporations, such as Lexicon (which operates here in my hometown, thats the only reason i heard about them). But never heard that from anyone in a religious vocation.

assume you are smart enough to know that two cells in a patrie dish do not constitute a human being- Echo2

You bet i know, it was spelled out in my post

Basically I think its amazing because we are working towards curing "illness" as a whole. Paedaphiles will have the genetic chemical inbalance changed etc along with all other cases of incorrect social behaviour.
Woah, no thank you. I don't like the definition of "incorrect social behaviour", it depends entirely on the society. Admittedly I would consider that to be more preferable than the death penalty but it should be a final punishment, not a catch all "cure".

Yea, i do recall the use of clones to harvest organs was mentioned by several genetics research corporations, such as Lexicon (which operates here in my hometown, thats the only reason i heard about them). But never heard that from anyone in a religious vocation.
Everybody seems to have issues regarding using clones for replacement organs. Even crazy Christians who wouldn't consider them to have a soul anyways. I honestly don't see the harm in cloning an individual to get an organ that they need. It will be a perfect match, and I don't really consider a clone to be an real person person. Grow them in tubes.

Personally, I find the idea of human cloning FRIGHTENING.
This is science at its very worst. This is playing GOD. Wrong, wrong, move.
Besides, is the world REALLY ready for 2 or more of ME???

Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]Everybody seems to have issues regarding using clones for replacement organs. Even crazy Christians who wouldn't consider them to have a soul anyways. I honestly don't see the harm in cloning an individual to get an organ that they need. It will be a perfect match, and I don't really consider a clone to be an real person person. Grow them in tubes.

Question: the puppy they cloned does not in your opinion feel pain in the same way the "actual dog did"? What makes dog number one more valueable than puppy cloned? What determines value?

Question: the puppy they cloned does not in your opinion feel pain in the same way the "actual dog did"? What makes dog number one more valueable than puppy cloned? What determines value?
Dog #1 was formed. Not created. Dog #2 was put together like you peice together a machine. Dog #1 was an original formation through reproduction. Two different parts melding to become one. Dog #2 is nothing more than a copy to be used as a backup. Dog #2 is number 2 because it is number 2.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Question: the puppy they cloned does not in your opinion feel pain in the same way the "actual dog did"? What makes dog number one more valueable than puppy cloned? What determines value?
Dog #1 was formed. Not created. Dog #2 was put together like you peice together a machine. Dog #1 was an original formation through reproduction. Two different parts melding to become one. Dog #2 is nothing more than a copy to be used as a backup. Dog #2 is number 2 because it is number 2.

But here is where I think it gets sticky. What or who gets to determine that cloned puppy does not have the same rights as dog number one? Only their method of birth is different. If I take a puppy home and bond with it, how does one determine that cloned puppy has less value than birthed puppy when there is no discernable difference? Difference then is only determined by love given and therefore value placed.

Not to mention the fundemental thing here for me, is that the human "soul" is the same as God. You have a large number of people assuming it exists on pure faith or personal feelings and no factual evidence.

Also, as Echo said, neither me or her ever meant that it would be ok to farm human clones. The creation of the organs is all we want.

I dont want to die, and if technology gives me a way to replace organs, rejuvenate skin and slow down the degeneration of cells I will take that option. I will replace every organ in my body with better, more advanced versions and when the only thing left inside of me "natural" is my brain, i still wont feel like I've lost some spirtual part of me.

This is evolution, this is the way forward.

Originally posted by rendova
This is playing GOD. Wrong, wrong, move.

Possibly one of the most frustrating comments ever to be made in such a debate.

I also don't like the idea of humans playing the allmighty power force behind creation. Seems like when we do this, sh** happens, usually for the worse. I don't have a problem with organs, but cloning whole humans or animals is going overboard. The natural order of things is we live we die, most folks say "I don't mind dying", but they also don't want it to happen. One thing I see everyone failed to mention is that Korea is doing this, what happens when they decide their military is to small and they need soldiers??? Just imagine what Hitler would have done with this power!!!

Originally posted by mad dog
I also don't like the idea of humans playing the allmighty power force behind creation. Seems like when we do this, sh** happens, usually for the worse.

Think of it like this... One day a race of aliens decided to work at cloning themselves, they had dabbled in this but never got anything right. 100 years down the line they are mass producing organs and have increased life expectancy by 50 years. 200 years later they have worked out minor manned space travel and have begun to do small missions to other planets in a bid to build livable areas on them. Skip ahead a 1000 years and these Aliens are so fundementally advanced compared to their humble beginnings. They have developed technology to not only allow them to live and terraform planets, but they have developed space travel to allow them to terraform planets further from their own solar system. Their scientists run planet sized experiments to find out such interesting things as how can a single cell organism can change a planet etc.

Now think of us now, In 2000 years (providing we havent killed ourselves) it could be probably that we are out exploring the galaxy and terraforming planets with enough technology that aging is practically erased. In respect to a group of scientists desigining a planet etc, is that they are the intellegent designers of this planet.

So why cant we push those boundaries and truly explore what we are capable of. Theists bang on about how we are so utterly complex that it couldnt be by accident, so why are they so annoyed when we use this complexity to explore everything.

It will be a sad day when religion Caps the progressing of Science, A sad day indeed.

Originally posted by mad dog
I don't have a problem with organs, but cloning whole humans or animals is going overboard.

Cloning people/animals to the point of them being consious and then harvesting them for their body parts is yes, very immoral and should not be allowed to happen.

Originally posted by mad dog
The natural order of things is we live we die, most folks say "I don't mind dying", but they also don't want it to happen. One thing

Arghh, The natural order of things depicted by whom??? Are you frightened of change or something?. At this very moment in time, we live and we die, but in the future i hope death is merely an option. Dying doesnt worry me, (this isnt to say the means of my death wouldnt frighten me) however I want to see the progressing of the human race and am truly gutted that I'll have to die and not see this.

Originally posted by mad dog
I see everyone failed to mention is that Korea is doing this, what happens when they decide their military is to small and they need soldiers???

If they chose to clone their soliders why would you be against this?

Originally posted by mad dog
Just imagine what Hitler would have done with this power!!! Ok, Ill assume your question is "What would hitler done with the power to clone an army", to which I would say he would have had hundreds of thousands more troops and would have probably won the war but if he had it, others would have had it and thus this world would be a very over populated place. Thus why we need to get space travel up and running, and thus why we need to terraform more planets.

There is soo much more out there and answers we dont even have the questions to yet. Its obvious as some of the Politics & History regulars will tell you, War has giving us some awesome technological breakthroughs and I presume it will continue to do such, pushing these boundaries further.

I just hope we dont kill ourselves because of all this new tech

Transplants are very expensive. The rich and famous will enjoy it.
Poor folks will probably never enjoy such.
It is not always the availability of parts or proceedures, it is the price of the proceedure itself.

There are plenty of stents available. But, it still cost 75,000 dollars to put two in my heart last year. Then 300 dollars a month for medicine for the first several months.

After the experimentation is over, and the novelty has worn off real life and greed will enter the picture. Back room things will be done by the rich and powerful. The poor and middle class will go on dieing as usual.

Insurance companies will make adjustments because of the cost factor.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Back room things will be done by the rich and powerful. The poor and middle class will go on dieing as usual.

Thats life.

Nothing good happens when people play god.

Hitler thought he was doing God's work. This is but one example. He actually thought he was "helping" mankind by ridding the world of the Jewish "menace." In effect, he thought he was "creating" something "good".

Maybe my analogy is far afield of what is happening in the world of science. But the idea of creating something which should not be created is frightening to me.

Has anyone read Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein"?

One last thought. There are worse things out there than death, after a person has lived their life to the best of their abilty, working with what they were given. There comes a time to rest and let go, and give this earth to others who come after us. This wishing for immortality on earth is selfish.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Think of it like this... One day a race of aliens decided to work at cloning themselves, they had dabbled in this but never got anything right. 100 years down the line they are mass producing organs and have increased life expectancy by 50 years. 200 years later they have worked out minor manned space travel and have begun to do small missions to other planets in a bid to build livable areas on them. Skip ahead a 1000 years and these Aliens are so fundementally advanced compared to their humble beginnings. They have developed technology to not only allow them to live and terraform planets, but they have developed space travel to allow them to terraform planets further from their own solar system. Their scientists run planet sized experiments to find out such interesting things as how can a single cell organism can change a planet etc.

Now think of us now, In 2000 years (providing we havent killed ourselves) it could be probably that we are out exploring the galaxy and terraforming planets with enough technology that aging is practically erased. In respect to a group of scientists desigining a planet etc, is that they are the intellegent designers of this planet.

So why cant we push those boundaries and truly explore what we are capable of. Theists bang on about how we are so utterly complex that it couldnt be by accident, so why are they so annoyed when we use this complexity to explore everything.

It will be a sad day when religion Caps the progressing of Science, A sad day indeed.



Cloning people/animals to the point of them being consious and then harvesting them for their body parts is yes, very immoral and should not be allowed to happen.



Arghh, The natural order of things depicted by whom??? Are you frightened of change or something?. At this very moment in time, we live and we die, but in the future i hope death is merely an option. Dying doesnt worry me, (this isnt to say the means of my death wouldnt frighten me) however I want to see the progressing of the human race and am truly gutted that I'll have to die and not see this.



If they chose to clone their soliders why would you be against this?

Ok, Ill assume your question is "What would hitler done with the power to clone an army", to which I would say he would have had hundreds of thousands more troops and would have probably won the war but if he had it, others would have had it and thus this world would be a very over populated place. Thus why we need to get space travel up and running, and thus why we need to terraform more planets.

There is soo much more out there and answers we dont even have the questions to yet. Its obvious as some of the Politics & History regulars will tell you, War has giving us some awesome technological breakthroughs and I presume it will continue to do such, pushing these boundaries further.

I just hope we dont kill ourselves because of all this new tech


"A sad day when religion caps the progressing of science."
--
"Science without religion is blind." Albert Einstein
"Dear god, what have we done?"
J. Robert Oppenheimer
"I wish to know how God's Universe works."
Isaac Newton

Originally posted by rendova
Nothing good happens when people play god.

O sweet fuck alive.


Originally posted by rendova
Maybe my analogy is far afield of what is happening in the world of science. But the idea of creating something which should not be created is frightening to me..

Who decides for you that it shouldnt be created? Who are you listening to thats said, this is harmful and dangerous? Make your own informed choices.

Originally posted by rendova
Has anyone read Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein"?

Your point being?

Originally posted by rendova
One last thought. There are worse things out there than death, after a person has lived their life to the best of their abilty, working with what they were given. There comes a time to rest and let go, and give this earth to others who come after us. This wishing for immortality on earth is selfish.

Working with what they were giving? How about working with what you have created! Doesnt that sound slightly more important?. Living to the best of my ability means learning everything and experiecing everything that I can.

Immortality on earth is Selfish? Of course its Selfish because I'm thinking of myself? I really despise people who get all high and mighty about people who put themselves first. I will work damn hard to please myself, and whilst I will also look to please my family, my freinds etc. I ultimatly want the very best for myself.

Im glad your so monk like and have devouted yourself to the pleasure of others, hope that works out for you.

Originally posted by rendova
"A sad day when religion caps the progressing of science."
--
"Science without religion is blind." Albert Einstein
"Dear god, what have we done?"
J. Robert Oppenheimer
"I wish to know how God's Universe works."
Isaac Newton

Congrats on quoting, care to explain why they prove your point (and possibly explaining what point that was)

Originally posted by rendova
Has anyone read Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein"?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Your point being?


Perhaps you should read it, then you will hopefully understand his point :D

:) I got too much Bible reading to do this week else I would. After Monday I will however.

Loki,
It is my understanding that Evak created this thread for discussion of cloning. He asked for our opinions, which we have given.
I do not understand the remarks directed towards me, that is, the insult remarks. I do not consider myself monklike. What makes you say this?
there is a difference between science for the good of mankind--vaccines, etc, and for selfish reasons. Surely you can see this? What possible reason for cloning is there, besides this? Because it CAN be done?
Does this mean it SHOULD be done?
Oppenheimer made his remark afte the first detonation of the atomic bomb at Trinity. He SAW what the future whas going to be like, from now on. THAT is why I used his quotes, and for the other quotes, both Einstein and Newton were deeply religious men. You can be both--a scientist and religious.
What frightens me is the idea that people never know when to stop. They NEVER know when to stop and let well enough alone. The cloning of humans and animals is going TOO FAR.
My opinion. I would like to think others respect it even if they do not agree with it. Like I try to do with their own opinions.
Yes, just what we need. Even MORE rude people on this poor planet.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
:) I got too much Bible reading to do this week else I would. After Monday I will however.

Have fun with those JWs, and Frankenstein is a great story

Whats the big deal about wanting to live so much longer? Lifes the pits and then ya die. Not much reason to extend it, just to be stupid for another 50 or so years

Originally posted by rendova
It is my understanding that Evak created this thread for discussion of cloning. He asked for our opinions, which we have given.

Originally posted by Evakian
So what do you think about the progress we are making worldwide with cloning?

Keep up the interesting conversation guys :)

Do you hear yourselfs?

"playing god"
"natural order of things"
"the idea of creating something which should not be created is frightening."
"This is science at its very worst."
"this is destroying human nature"

Do you people live in the middle ages? These are the same statements that religious people have made for just about every medical advancement science has made.

the first pain killers
the first vaccines
the first organ transplant
the first time a limb was succesfully re-atached
the list goes on and on.

Heck, there are people who still believe blood transplants are toying with gods will. Get a grip guys. If your god didn't want us to persue science he wouldn't have given us the ability to do so. And if he/she/it doesn't like it he/she/it can stop it at any time.

You people are scarry.

LOL, "guys"??!!
I'm a lady, mother of five, middle-aged, and ready to go when my time comes.
my immortaility will come in the hearts and minds of those who remember me. As it should be. My 2 cents.

Originally posted by rendova
I would like to think others respect it even if they do not agree with it. Like I try to do with their own opinions. /B]


Originally posted by rendova
[B] This wishing for immortality on earth is selfish.

Originally posted by Echo2
If your god didn't want us to persue science he wouldn't have given us the ability to do so. And if he/she/it doesn't like it he/she/it can stop it at any time.

:) Echo Its nice to see we are on the same wavelength with this.

Originally posted by Echo2


Do you people live in the middle ages? These are the same statements that religious people have made for just about every medical advancement science has made.

the first pain killers
the first vaccines
the first organ transplant
the first time a limb was succesfully re-atached
the list goes on and on.

Heck, there are people who still believe blood transplants are toying with gods will. Get a grip guys. If your god didn't want us to persue science he wouldn't have given us the ability to do so. And if he/she/it doesn't like it he/she/it can stop it at any time.

You people are scarry.

Okay, i'll just do what you do and demand sources :D

Originally posted by Evakian
Okay, i'll just do what you do and demand sources :D

No problem, I just finished (well, last spring) reading a book on the history of medicine. When I get home tonight I will dig it up and post the name, title and author

It was very interesting. I recomend it to anyone interested in the history of medical science. Fascinating.

Did I call anyone selfish?
My ABJECT apologies.

Originally posted by Echo2
No problem, I just finished (well, last spring) reading a book on the history of medicine. When I get home tonight I will dig it up and post the name, title and author

It was very interesting. I recomend it to anyone interested in the history of medical science. Fascinating.

i was kidding, notice the :D at the end of the sentence.
No need to do that, i trust you enough, twas merely a jest.

Originally posted by Echo2
Do you hear yourselfs?

"playing god"
"natural order of things"
"the idea of creating something which should not be created is frightening."
"This is science at its very worst."
"this is destroying human nature"

Do you people live in the middle ages? These are the same statements that religious people have made for just about every medical advancement science has made.

the first pain killers
the first vaccines
the first organ transplant
the first time a limb was succesfully re-atached
the list goes on and on.

Heck, there are people who still believe blood transplants are toying with gods will. Get a grip guys. If your god didn't want us to persue science he wouldn't have given us the ability to do so. And if he/she/it doesn't like it he/she/it can stop it at any time.

You people are scarry.

I don't see how the comparisons are the same. Pain killers, vaccines, organ transplants, all are useful in that they help ease and prolong existing life.
It is my understanding that cloning is the DUPLICATION of existing life.
For what reason?
I ask again, what is the purpose in this?

To extend the life you currently have, but that would require the clone to be killed or mutilated to recieve their blood, organs, or any other parts for that matter.

So it can be seen as a selfish thing to do, and also, pointless.
Why extend this terrible life we all take part in now?

Now as far as research is concerned, i am all for the finding of cures and diseases that plague us.

I think you guys are under the impression that scientists are planning on cloning entire human beings and then harvesting their organs. The actual thing they are working towards is being able to take stem cells from a person and grow a specific organ. If I needed a new kidney, they would be able to use my stem cells and grow me a compatible kidney that would have no problems with rejection because it is essentially my tissue it was made from.

The idea of actually cloning people and then harvesting their organs is frightening. But we shouldn’t stop research into the field because of that. I agree we should not grow entire human beings. And we can pass laws to keep that from happening. But don’t stop the research in the field because of the fear that someday someone will use it wrong. Heck, if we had done that we would still be living in caves without fire.

Did you know they have actually been able to clone a human ear (the outside part) and have it grow on the back of a mouse? It sounds terrible, but what if you lost an eye or a kidney? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if they could somehow grow that body part in a test tube from your cells and replace it?

Shall we all agree to come back here in 40 years (Echo you may be dead, but jot in the diary anyway) and talk of the progress thats been made.

Originally posted by Echo2
I think you guys are under the impression that scientists are planning on cloning entire human beings and then harvesting their organs. The actual thing they are working towards is being able to take stem cells from a person and grow a specific organ. If I needed a new kidney, they would be able to use my stem cells and grow me a compatible kidney that would have no problems with rejection because it is essentially my tissue it was made from.

The idea of actually cloning people and then harvesting their organs is frightening. But we shouldn’t stop research into the field because of that. I agree we should not grow entire human beings. And we can pass laws to keep that from happening. But don’t stop the research in the field because of the fear that someday someone will use it wrong. Heck, if we had done that we would still be living in caves without fire.

Did you know they have actually been able to clone a human ear (the outside part) and have it grow on the back of a mouse? It sounds terrible, but what if you lost an eye or a kidney? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if they could somehow grow that body part in a test tube from your cells and replace it?

If that is all they are planning on doing, it seems a sensible and even merciful idea. Who could not be for such a thing?
On the other hand tho, human nature being what it is, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it went much much further than that...as we can imagine, the possibilities for "science gone wild" are endless.
I would like to think that the scientists and doctors involved in this research are very careful! I'm sure MOST of them are...anyone hear tell that human cloning has ALREADY been done so this discussion is pointless? I heard tell, and please don't ask me where I heard/read this, but there was a case of a billionaire cloning himself in South America, and also, I believe, a young boy cloned in, (i believe), France.
We have met the enemy, and he is us.........:)

If that is all they are planning on doing, it seems a sensible and even merciful idea. Who could not be for such a thing?- rendova

Me :), the %#@holes that exist now will exist longer :D

Originally posted by Lokideviluk

Cloning people/animals to the point of them being consious and then harvesting them for their body parts is yes, very immoral and should not be allowed to happen.

this is one of my concerns in todays society everything is about money money money and yes if there is a way to get rich and give harvesting humans a sugar coating it will happen.



Arghh, The natural order of things depicted by whom???

nature, not human involvement.

Are you frightened of change or something?.

when change is done for the right reasons I have no problem, but lets not forget we are talking about the greedy assinine human race.

At this very moment in time, we live and we die, but in the future i hope death is merely an option. Dying doesnt worry me, (this isnt to say the means of my death wouldnt frighten me) however I want to see the progressing of the human race and am truly gutted that I'll have to die and not see this.

I agree it would be neat to see things a 1,000 years from now but in the same sense what for? why not make the best of today and try to improve the present before we go trying to F-up the future? Also with living forever, don't we need to figure out our population problems of today 1st?



If they chose to clone their soliders why would you be against this?

lets say we have the tech to clone thousand of living breathing humans is it right for us to decide how they die? Are we God? I thought you said you were against the harvesting of humans, wouldn't this be the same?

Ok, Ill assume your question is "What would hitler done with the power to clone an army", to which I would say he would have had hundreds of thousands more troops and would have probably won the war but if he had it, others would have had it and thus this world would be a very over populated place.

Hitler was very close to making the bomb while no one else had it, what would have happened? If the wrong type of people get ahold of this tech it will not be a good thing.

Thus why we need to get space travel up and running, and thus why we need to terraform more planets.

I agree, but shouldn't we start from the begaining not the end? example of what I mean you have an egg do you just cook it, no. 1st you need the fire then you need something to put the egg into. The problem with society is that we have away of jumping into things before we understand the whole picture.

Originally posted by Echo2
Do you hear yourselfs?

"playing god"

I'm going to make 6 clones of your son because I need hit men, and I could care less what they want I've created them for my needs.

"natural order of things"

it is natural for us to want to learn but it is not natural for us to screw with nature.

"the idea of creating something which should not be created is frightening."

I see nothing wrong with this thought just think of the 1st guy to fly or go fast in a car anything new is frightening. The most frighting thing is that humans would be the creater, the creater of a living breathing creature, for what purpose?


"This is science at its very worst."

science goes straight out the window when greed comes into play.


"this is destroying human nature"

it is natural for man and woman to get together and make a baby. It is not natural for man or woman to take a piece of skin to make themself.

Do you people live in the middle ages? These are the same statements that religious people have made for just about every medical advancement science has made.

the first pain killers
the first vaccines
the first organ transplant
the first time a limb was succesfully re-atached
the list goes on and on.

I agree with parts of your list but at the same time we made drugs that we thought were perfect when in reality we were making a bigger poison.

Heck, there are people who still believe blood transplants are toying with gods will. Get a grip guys. If your god didn't want us to persue science he wouldn't have given us the ability to do so. And if he/she/it doesn't like it he/she/it can stop it at any time.

just like we were so perfect to make war and bombs and poison.

You people are scarry.

quick go look in the mirror :D

Originally posted by mad dog
this is one of my concerns in todays society everything is about money money money and yes if there is a way to get rich and give harvesting humans a sugar coating it will happen.

Boiled down, there are bad people in this world that will abuse everything. Does this mean to you that we should not develop technology that "potentially" could be used in an illegal or immoral way?





Originally posted by mad dog
nature, not human involvement.

Why? We are humans and thus it stands to reason that we are going to have Human Involvement. Would you wish us to simply stop attempting to "evolve" and wait around for nature to catch up?

Originally posted by mad dog
when change is done for the right reasons I have no problem, but lets not forget we are talking about the greedy assinine human race.

And its this Greedy Assinine race that gives all the convenience tools you take for granted each day. Its those who arnt satisified with what they have that go forth and discover new things.

Originally posted by mad dog
I agree it would be neat to see things a 1,000 years from now but in the same sense what for? why not make the best of today and try to improve the present before we go trying to F-up the future? Also with living forever, don't we need to figure out our population problems of today 1st?


We are looking to the future in a bid to improve our present. But I guess this is where I differ to you, in that I want to look towards planting the seeds to improve the future for my children and childrens children etc.


Originally posted by mad dog
lets say we have the tech to clone thousand of living breathing humans is it right for us to decide how they die? Are we God? I thought you said you were against the harvesting of humans, wouldn't this be the same?

I never said I was for it, I merely asked why you were against it.


Originally posted by mad dog
Hitler was very close to making the bomb while no one else had it, what would have happened? If the wrong type of people get ahold of this tech it will not be a good thing.

As I've mentioned above, Stopping the technology on the basis that some bad person may get hold of it is basically halting the progression of the human race.

Originally posted by mad dog
it is natural for us to want to learn but it is not natural for us to screw with nature.

Lets see, we have created hybrids of just about every plant on earth, we have created new species from breading to separate types of animals, we developed and dropped an atom bomb, we have created vaccines that kill viruses, we have strip mined the land and completely changed the landscape of large areas of our earth, we have dammed our rivers and made lakes where they didn't exist, we have made a number of species extinct, we have cured disease, we created processed foods, we have re attached limbs, we have taken the heart out of one body and put it in another, we have developed medication to keep people alive that would have naturally died with out it, we have bread animals for specific attributes, we have domesticated animals that were once wild, we have developed technology to be able to live and breath under water, we have walked in space and landed on the moon, we have harnessed fire, made pain killers, pathed over the earth, blown holes in it, seeded clouds to make it rain. The list goes on and on. NONE of these things are natural and they all screw with nature.

it is natural for man and woman to get together and make a baby. It is not natural for man or woman to take a piece of skin to make themself.


Is artificial insemination natural? How about making zygotes in a tube and then implanting them in a uterous? These things happen on a daily basis in this country. They are not natural.

Just by our mere existance on this planet we have created unnatural environments. We have a brain and we have the ability to change our environment. Internally and externally. So is our existance unatural because we have these abilities? Or is it unatural for us to use these abilities, and if so, why do we have them in the first place? Think about it.

echo, I posted osmething like this in another thread, but since god gave us teh ability to experiment on living humans, does taht mean we should? should we do things to prisoners and such? just becasue we can doesnt mean we should

We do do experiements on humans all the time. Any time a new drug or new surgical procedure or new medical technology is found, we test it on animals untill we believe it is safe and then we test it on human volunteers. Remenber the guy in the 60's that had the first heart transplant? He had a chimpanzee heart transplanted into him. It was very high tech, no one had transplanted a heart into a human being at that time. It was the first step to what we have today in that field. I think he lived another 68 after the surgury.

Anyway, I do not think we should test stuff on people who have not volunteered. But we are and have been testing things on people for centuries. Every medical advancement had to at some time be tested on a human for the first time.

He had a chimpanzee heart transplanted into him

MONKEY MAN!

This was a very brave man that helped the advancement of medical science emensly. He was dieing of some heart related thing - had less than a week to live and he agreed to allow the doctors to transplant a chimpanzee heart into him. A very brave man - he lived another 68 days and medical science larned a lot from his sacrifice.

Originally posted by Echo2


Anyway, I do not think we should test stuff on people who have not volunteered. .

What about convicted life sentence/death row prisoners?

This was a very brave man that helped the advancement of medical science emensly

brave monkey man* :D

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
What about convicted life sentence/death row prisoners?

Good question. The part of me that believes these are throw away people that should have no rights says yes. The part of me that believes that we are what we do says no.

Ethically, I would say no, it would be wrong. Fiscally I would say yes, they are useless human beings that we keep alive, why not make them of some use to society. Scientifically I am all for the advancement of science. Humanitarily I would not feel comfortable doing it.

How about giving death row people the OPTION to be used experimentally instead of being put to death. And for the lifers, the option to be experimented on and be taken out of the general population unit of prison. (They's have to be anyway to control experiments).

Originally posted by Echo2


How about giving death row people the OPTION to be used experimentally instead of being put to death. And for the lifers, the option to be experimented on and be taken out of the general population unit of prison. (They's have to be anyway to control experiments).

Echo I think that is a brilliant way of thinking and agree completely, Id still want there to be large amounts of security at these places, but to offer them a higher standard of living in exchange for such is win/win

A guy is on death row, the people vote to experiment on death row folks{after all they are throw aways}. OOOOOPPPPS evidence came up that said death row guy was not quilty after all, to late now he is dead.

I think most of us agree the tech is needed but at what price do we pay? Should we make a whole person? Should we play god with the humans we make? Will these folks have a soul? What type of a life would these new humans have? What happens when we make "the perfect human", do we kill off the flaud ones? In the future will everyone look and act the same? Will a Hitler type finally rule the world and have his little robot human army?

Originally posted by mad dog
A guy is on death row, the people vote to experiment on death row folks{after all they are throw aways}. OOOOOPPPPS evidence came up that said death row guy was not quilty after all, to late now he is dead.

I think most of us agree the tech is needed but at what price do we pay? Should we make a whole person? Should we play god with the humans we make? Will these folks have a soul? What type of a life would these new humans have? What happens when we make "the perfect human", do we kill off the flaud ones? In the future will everyone look and act the same? Will a Hitler type finally rule the world and have his little robot human army?

Good points, mad dog. This idea scares me as well.
Also I don't believe we should experiment with the people on Death Row. Execute them, yes, but experiments that could go very very wrong would just show us to be as barbaric as the criminals themselves. Desspite their cruel and criminal actions that gave them a death sentence to begin with, they are still human after all and shouldn't be treated thus.

Originally posted by rendova
Good points, mad dog. This idea scares me as well.
Also I don't believe we should experiment with the people on Death Row. Execute them, yes, but experiments that could go very very wrong would just show us to be as barbaric as the criminals themselves. Desspite their cruel and criminal actions that gave them a death sentence to begin with, they are still human after all and shouldn't be treated thus.

Yes but i believe the point was that we would give them the choice. Better accomadation and a plush lifestyle (albeit contained) in return for complete sign over of their life basically.

They stand a chance of being the person whom sacrificed himself to cure cancer etc.

I suppose that there are many who would volunteer for such a thing. ANYTHING to escape their eventual date with Old Sparky!