How many of the following beliefs apply to you?

from wikipedia "new age beliefs" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_age#Beliefs)
The following are some common — though by no means universal — beliefs found among New Agers:

1. All humanity—indeed all life, everything in the universe—is spiritually interconnected, participating in the same energy. “God” is one name for this energy.
2. Spiritual beings (e.g. angels, ascended masters, elementals, ghosts, and/or space aliens) exist, and will guide us, if we open ourselves to their guidance.
3. The human mind has deep levels and vast powers, which are capable even of overriding physical reality. “You create your own reality.”
4. Nevertheless, this is subject to certain spiritual laws, such as the principle of cause and effect (karma).
5. The individual has a purpose here on earth, in the present surroundings, because there is a lesson to learn. The most important lesson is love.
6. Death is not the end. There is only life in different forms. What some refer to as an afterlife does not punish us but teaches us, perhaps through the mechanisms of reincarnation or near-death experiences.
7. Science and spirituality are ultimately harmonious. New discoveries in science (evolution, ESP, quantum mechanics), rightly understood, point to spiritual principles.
8. It shares with many major world religions the idea that Intuition or "divine guidance" is a more appropriate guide than rationalism, skepticism, or the scientific method. Western science wrongly neglects such things as parapsychology, meditation, and holistic health.
9. There exists a mystical core within all religions, Eastern and Western. Dogma and religious identity are not so important.
10. The Bible is a wise and holy book. Many important truths are not found in the Bible, or are referred to only very obliquely. Some say that Jesus was an Essene, or that he traveled to India in his youth to study Eastern religions. Others say that Jesus was a later, more advanced avatar of Buddha.
11. Feminine forms of spirituality, including feminine images of the divine, are viewed as having been subordinated, masked, or obliterated by patriarchal movements that were widely practiced when sacred teachings were first committed to writing. A renaissance of the feminine is particularly appropriate at this time.
12. Ancient civilizations such as Atlantis may truly have existed, leaving behind certain relics and monuments (the Great Pyramid, Stonehenge) whose true nature has not been discovered by mainstream historians.
13. There are no coincidences. Everything around you has spiritual meaning, and spiritual lessons to teach you. You are meant to be here, and are always exactly where you need to be to learn from what confronts you.
14. The mind has hidden powers and abilities, which have a spiritual significance. Dreams and psychic experiences are ways in which our souls express themselves.
15. Meditation, yoga, t'ai chi, and other Eastern practices are valuable and worthwhile.
My personal count is zero, unsurprisingly.

I know zero about Wiccan or New Age. I still view myself as primarily Christian but I scored an 11 out of 15.

That's to be expected. New-agers consider their views to harmonised with all major spiritual belief systems including religions.

1-5 as no great surprise to anyone.

I'm confused how are beliefs or spirits new age? Hasn't this type of thing been happening for thousands of years?

Yeh its Irony... dont you love irony?

Originally posted by mad dog
I'm confused how are beliefs or spirits new age? Hasn't this type of thing been happening for thousands of years? lol. Yes you have a point. The spiritualism of new-agers is nothing new.

But what makes new-agism new is its basis in the 20th century western ideal of indivdualism. The same individualism we see in such things as the hippy movement or consumer rights. Another feature new to new-agism is that it tries not to tie is flag to any mast. In these days we have access to information about many things from science to anceint religions. For the dedicated new-ager there is truth in all things - whether its a bible or a physics book. Scientists and christians are not considered wrong, they are merely like blind-men exploring different parts of the same elephant.

Only the new-ager has the wisdom to rise above the bulk of childish humanity and see the one-ness of all reality and all knowledge.

Originally posted by Blob
Only the new-ager has the wisdom to rise above the bulk of childish humanity and see the one-ness of all reality and all knowledge.

Wow maybe I should become a new-ager, so I too can see the real way... :D

BUT

Do I have to wear those tablecloth skirts and flat sandals called Berkenstoks (sp)? Okay, for any new agers here I am just kidding!

So now I have to ask Blob...are we just here by accident? Is that how you see it. Or sort of a cosmic joke or........ ???

For real... how do you see it... and how do you get through those black times when nothing seems to make sense?

Is it me, or does every single conversation in the religion forum boil down to "What do you believe in and why"

Originally posted by ~Sal~
So now I have to ask Blob...are we just here by accident? Is that how you see it. Or sort of a cosmic joke or........ ??? Your questions contain assumptions I don't share - that there is a conscious purpose to the universe. "An accident" implies a mistake, as though things haven't gone as the universe intended. Cosmic joke implies the universe exists for its own amusement. But I do not consider the universe to have intent or a sense of humour.

That said, I would say that our existance here is arbitary and neither essential nor inevitable. It is neither planned nor chance.

For real... how do you see it... and how do you get through those black times when nothing seems to make sense? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by get through the black times when nothing seems to make sense.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Is it me, or does every single conversation in the religion forum boil down to "What do you believe in and why"

No basically you are right because unless people are heavily into studying religion and have a vast amount of knowledge about various belief systems, it can only boil down to: "what do you believe and why".

It is speculative and pure opinion. Which is rather oddly interesting actually.

The only other approach would take years of research.

Other than bashing the other side for their stupidity... (?) how can we change that.

Originally posted by Blob
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by get through the black times when nothing seems to make sense.

Ok, so our existence is arbitrary.

I guess it is hard for me to understand where you come from and thus I do not know how to ask things from your perspective so that you can understand what I mean. I am trying to understand how you as an atheist view the world.

Is there good and bad? What makes it so?

Is there a purpose other than to survive the day and what is that purpose?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Ok, so our existence is arbitrary.

I guess it is hard for me to understand where you come from and thus I do not know how to ask things from your perspective so that you can understand what I mean. I am trying to understand how you as an atheist view the world.Thank you for that. People often take me as picky or pedantic but it was a genuine point.

Let me try to make an analogy, however flimsy. Imagine life is a game of 20 questions. That is how a theist sees the world - there is an ultimate truth that exists and that we can try to unravel.

Now imagine a game of twenty questions, but the players have conspired so that there is no answer. They will merely say 'yes' or 'no' as they feel like it. The final answer was never consciously decided. The game plays out and the final answer is arbitary - not accidental, not random (because questions were asked to lead up to it). The game becomes not a test or a search for truth merely a string of events.
Is there good and bad? What makes it so?Yes there is good and bad, but they are subjective and cannot exist independently of thinking minds. Objectively we can consider them in terms of harm to ourselves and others. I'm not very good at thinking about the philosphy or morality and sometimes wonder if the whole thing is not just a lot of vague words.
Is there a purpose other than to survive the day and what is that purpose? At the cosmological scale of things I;d say no.

Originally posted by ~Sal~


Is there a purpose other than to survive the day and what is that purpose?


To enjoy it.

Originally posted by Blob
Thank you for that. People often take me as picky or pedantic but it was a genuine point.

I see it as a genuine point for you. We have posted to each other enough for me to understand that. You write for a living. I correspond with an old guy from another forum who was a journalist... you guys are nuts about language useage. It is one of the reasons I enjoy being here... In my line of work there is no room for language subtlety...only simplicity. It reminds me there is a correct way to express thoughts and there are multi-layers.

Let me try to make an analogy, however flimsy. Imagine life is a game of 20 questions. That is how a theist sees the world - there is an ultimate truth that exists and that we can try to unravel. Yes that is a good analogy for that is how I veiw it. Everything has an ultimate and everything can be understood at some level and everything reflects everything else.

Now imagine a game of twenty questions, but the players have conspired so that there is no answer. They will merely say 'yes' or 'no' as they feel like it. The final answer was never consciously decided. The game plays out and the final answer is arbitary - not accidental, not random (because questions were asked to lead up to it). The game becomes not a test or a search for truth merely a string of events.

Now here is were you lose me, for to me that is chaos. There is no comfort, for there is no order or "ultimate". I do not get it. It baffles me. For many years I went out with a philosophy prof. He would have understood your concept and perhaps embraced it. I tried then, as I try now, but I do not get it. I can not wrap my head around "nothingness". I try, so I keep asking.

People like you baffle me for you are not angry and hate filled. You respect belief although it can at times irritate you. You do not attack it nor the person who believes. You have no need. If you have no need to attack and belittle, you are indeed comfortable where you are. I do not get it, but I want to.

Yes there is good and bad, but they are subjective and cannot exist independently of thinking minds. Objectively we can consider them in terms of harm to ourselves and others. I'm not very good at thinking about the philosphy or morality and sometimes wonder if the whole thing is not just a lot of vague words.

This I understand for although Christian, I really have my own religion. Perhaps I should start a movement :D I get the harm to ourselves and others, but if one has no outside compass how does one decide right and wrong? A psychopath determines what is right or wrong for themself. Yet, it is destruction for those who meet the criteria that they deem. So how can I trust an atheists idea or construct of right or wrong?

At the cosmological scale of things I;d say no. And herein lies my biggest dilemma with your belief structure for my heart tells me this can not be so. I can not embrace and trust the universe if this is so. I can not live. :(

Thanks Sal.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Now here is were you lose me,I don't think I lost you, I think you simply disagree.
Originally posted by ~Sal~
for to me that is chaos. There is no comfort, for there is no order or "ultimate".Well there is order (the game structure to continue the 20 questions thing) and there is reality - although I believe reality is so deep and incredible we cannot ever comprehend more than a speck of it.
Originally posted by ~Sal~
if one has no outside compass how does one decide right and wrong? A psychopath determines what is right or wrong for themself. Yet, it is destruction for those who meet the criteria that they deem. So how can I trust an atheists idea or construct of right or wrong?Empathy is in our genes as seen in the ubiquity of motherly love. But it is a fragile empathy that is all too easily compromised. For example a psychopath lacks empathy so cares not of the harm and suffering caused to others.

But don't you think psychopaths and wars and injustice suggest that there is no overarching morailty scribed into the fabric of the universe?

And it's not just mankind. If the universe is hardwired with morailty why is life for the vast majority of organisms painful and terrifying experience? Consider... tornados, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, floods, parasites, sores, boils, rotting teeth, bacterial infection, broken bones, being eaten alive, the mass death of most babies common in nature... I don't see how reality tallies with any pre-ordained and enforced ultimate morality. It's not even clear cut - e.g. "being eaten alive" is happening right now to billions of organisms all over the world. Sounds terrible but the predators doing the eating would disagree.
And herein lies my biggest dilemma with your belief structure for my heart tells me this can not be so. I can not embrace and trust the universe if this is so. I can not live. :( Fair enough and who knows? - you may be right. But I might ask (and again its genuine not picky) how you can possibly value this life as I do if it is merely a fleeting moment in a much longer experience? Where is the motivation to live long and make the most of it if the next life awaits and is better and eternal?

Blob, have you perchance run into U.G. Krishnamurti or his writings?

Welcome to allforums Napsterbater!

No I haven't heard of him. I found a link here (http://www.well.com/user/jct/) though.

Thanks. His is an interesting story, similar to yours. One who has explored all the mystical and spiritual aspects of existance and ended up in a state where he has no need for any of it any more.

His descriptions of the natural state as it applies to him are particularly interesting to me, as I have studied the various so-called enlightened masters of the day; Rajneesh, and George Gurdjieff, trying to distill out of the three men what it means to be enlightened.

For some reason, in my personal life, I've had no desire to explore the deeper spiritual aspects of new-ageism, like meditation, yoga, past-life regressions and what-have you. I don't exactly think they are worthless, but simply amusements for the western mind. Any attempt to distill a overarching purpose of the universe is bound to end in failure.

I have, however, experienced a martial arts form that simply blows away what you typically see in martial arts today. I have seen it happen, and have personal understanding of the fact that there is a metaphysical energy that can be harnessed and projected, in a method conducive with scientific monitering and practice. Having done it myself, I know it works. Using breathing excercises and meditation. I've seen it turn sixty and seventy year old geezers into powerhouses. I've seen proof that the energy can be harnessed so as to make the blind see.

Even though I have all this (subjective) proof that the shit works and there really is something out there current science cannot quantify yet, I find that new-ageism is not really my bag. I have no desire to experience it all and become a so-called guru. I prefer a clearer, more rational approach to life, though not one dictated by the scientific method.

I find that the purely rational and objective point of view is limiting and choking. I feel that there is a place for humans to believe in a general good purpose of the universe, though that isn't something I necessarily adhere to.

In other words, you can't have it only one way. It takes both viewpoints to form a complete picture of what is really going on underneath the surface and to really get a feel for the underlying mechanics that run our subjective and objective existances.

Originally posted by Napsterbater
Thanks. His is an interesting story, similar to yours. One who has explored all the mystical and spiritual aspects of existance and ended up in a state where he has no need for any of it any more. You're very kind to compare me to someone you and others admire but I'm afraid there's little similarity. I've not had a hard life like him and I certainly would certainly enjoy a more fulfilling life were I rich. Better to have lots of money and get fucked up and depressed than suffer the grinding, dreary boredom of poverty, IMO.

But thanks for the complement!

Originally posted by Blob
Better to have lots of money and get fucked up and depressed than suffer the grinding, dreary boredom of poverty, IMO.

Baaahahaha, ain't that the truth... Character building via poverty has it's merits... but once you get the character, you'd best get past the poverty or life will suck regardless of one's ability to happily bear it.

Hah, you misunderstand UG completely

Here is a list of "money maxims" straight from the man himself.

1. Money matters most in life.

2. Be not shy about money-making.

3. Trust not anyone with money.

4. Nothing is free in this world, not even love.

5. One who worships the money god will be amply rewarded. One who worships the other God will be stripped naked and left in the streets.

6. Make money by hook or by crook.

7. Make money by any means.

8. Money talks; wealth whispers.

9. Miss not a chance to make money.

10. Quench not the thirst for money.

There are a hundred of those. UG says that because there is nothing worth going for in the spiritual world, you might as well make money, it is the only thing left that matters.

8. Money talks; wealth whispers.

THAT is nice... I think we should start a money thread... ya know... is the desire for money shallow?

Fair enough, napsterbater.

I'd love to be rich. But there's no way I'm prepared to work hard to get it. Greed is a wonderful sin but sloth is so much easier! :D

Indeed, that was one of the next topics I was going to bring up.

And I am all about ease. That is my number one motivator, that and boredom. I have forged an entire philosophy around them!

[Greed is a wonderful sin but sloth is so much easier! :D [/B][/QUOTE]


If your going to do a thread on the sins...I guess I fit into the glutten catagory...lol....I eat way more than my share (although I'm thin, so maybe I just need to eat that much).

I scored 10 :)

15. Meditation, yoga, t'ai chi, and other Eastern practices are valuable and worthwhile.

The only one I agree with, but I don't believe there is a spiritual side to any of these practices.

Nope! I'm not New Age. I'm Old Age. Now give me my damned senior discount.

I believe, to an extent, everything on the list. I'm Neo-Pagan! That means "new"! :D