Is there anything more frustrating than listening to an irrational human being? My mother made a comment about what you have todo to get into heaven, which includes (according to her) going to Church and believing in Jesus Christ. So I asked her what would happen to Muslims. They don't believe in Christ...are they automatically excluded from heaven then? She said "Well, they don't believe in Christ, our God, so...I don't know what will happen to them." Then she said that she had no idea what they even believed in. I suggested that she try and expand her knowledge about world religions and try to understand the basic core of each set of beliefs. It's best to scope out the whole buffet before you fill up on just chicken, right? I don't think this is my opinion, it just really is common sense. She went on to say that she didn't care about other religions and wasn't interested in learning anything about them.

My question: is it the nature of some people to be so close-minded? Is it actually wrong? I myself tend to think anyone is capable of rational thought. Then again, religion is based on irrational beliefs. BUT the least a person can do is learn about all of them and only then decide on which is best suited for themselves (if anything). You can be religious and rational at the same time.

My mother also voted for Bush mostly because she's against abortion. Yet Bush is sending our troops to die in Iraq, right? So aren't we still killing lives? And most importantly, aren't there bigger issues at stake than the abortion debate? A friend of mine is a strong Republican, and voted for Bush. I asked him why. He said "I don't think Bush is a great President, but I feel the Republican party will, in the long run, change our country for the better." While I might disagree, it is a terrific response. He's not a diehard Bush-fan, he simply looks at a larger picture. While I might disagree, at least it's within the realm of rational thinking.

I'm just wondering what people think about those who have a close-minded way of thinking. Is a person actually wrong for chosing to be ignorant? Am I ignorant for not recognizing that maybe it's okay to stay in your own little box? Is it worth trying to help people (like my mom) to expand their minds?...just a little?

Originally posted by ComicsGn
Is there anything more frustrating than listening to an irrational human being? My mother made a comment about what you have todo to get into heaven, which includes (according to her) going to Church and believing in Jesus Christ. So I asked her what would happen to Muslims. They don't believe in Christ...are they automatically excluded from heaven then? She said "Well, they don't believe in Christ, our God, so...I don't know what will happen to them." Then she said that she had no idea what they even believed in. I suggested that she try and expand her knowledge about world religions and try to understand the basic core of each set of beliefs. It's best to scope out the whole buffet before you fill up on just chicken, right? I don't think this is my opinion, it just really is common sense. She went on to say that she didn't care about other religions and wasn't interested in learning anything about them.

My question: is it the nature of some people to be so close-minded? Is it actually wrong? I myself tend to think anyone is capable of rational thought. Then again, religion is based on irrational beliefs. BUT the least a person can do is learn about all of them and only then decide on which is best suited for themselves (if anything). You can be religious and rational at the same time.

My mother also voted for Bush mostly because she's against abortion. Yet Bush is sending our troops to die in Iraq, right? So aren't we still killing lives? And most importantly, aren't there bigger issues at stake than the abortion debate? A friend of mine is a strong Republican, and voted for Bush. I asked him why. He said "I don't think Bush is a great President, but I feel the Republican party will, in the long run, change our country for the better." While I might disagree, it is a terrific response. He's not a diehard Bush-fan, he simply looks at a larger picture. While I might disagree, at least it's within the realm of rational thinking.

I'm just wondering what people think about those who have a close-minded way of thinking. Is a person actually wrong for chosing to be ignorant? Am I ignorant for not recognizing that maybe it's okay to stay in your own little box? Is it worth trying to help people (like my mom) to expand their minds?...just a little?


usually close minded people are taught this. then it spreads into other areas of their lives. i do find almost all close minded people to be very paranoid, and afraid. you have to remember not to try to force anything on them. it makes them worse. try to talk in a calm manner. and try not to hate them. it will only make them worse.

I'd say that closed-minded people (and open-minded people for that matter) are subject to several stimuli: personality/psychology, environment, and education.

The personality aspect is hard to change, since (I believe) that it is a genetic construct, much like one's physical appearance and internal organs.

The other two stimuli are, in my opinion, more important anyway.

I grew up in an area where people tended to live "smaller" lives. Basically, people were born, lived in, and died in the same place for their entire lives and wouldn't often go more than a few hours away from home, even on vacation. (This is partly due to economics; I grew up in a poor section of the U.S.) As a result, their perspectives were very small. They lived a fairly homogenous life, with little exposure to different things. Essentially, their worlds were very small. It is sort of like a Koi fish. The Koi will grow to the size of its environment. Koi living in aquariums will only be a few inches, but Koi living in a large lake can grow to several feet. While this is a biological phenomenon vice a psychological, it helps illustrate my point.

Also, the uneducated tend to be less open-minded than the well-educated. When I say educated, I don't mean just the formally schooled (college, etc.) but mainly people with a thirst for knowledge. I think that, in general, people are "afraid" of what they don't understand. This can manifest itself in a closed-minded attitude. Someone doesn't understand something and this new concept has the potential to invade that person's comfort zone. As a result, the concept is met with, at best, indifference, and, at worst, hostility. Again, my personal experience comes into play. Wher I'm from, only about 60% graduate high school and only about 5% go beyond a high school education. They don't know much about the world and things that are different than their norm. Because they don't have the background in "new" things and, more importantly, they have never l"learned how to learn," the uneducated don't care to venture into the unknown. This last paragraph may have come across as somewhat elitist and snobbish, but that was not the intention. I'm just trying to illustrate that education and exposure is important to developing an open mind.

Of course, religion does play a part in open-mindedness as was the original point (sorry if I strayed a bit). It boils down to the "all or nothing"/"with us or against us" mentality that some denominations practice. Adherents to these sects subconsciously put mental blinders on in fear that if they see or hear something to challenge their conceptions of faith and religion, their belief set can come crashing down. This is pretty much because these same religious sects have their morality defined in VERY black and wote/right and wrong terms. As a result, this morality is very fragile, especially since not everyone sees eye-to-eye on the specifics of what is right.

Sorry to be so roundabout to get to the original question. Should we try to open peoples' minds? It depends. If the intolerance comes from religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Wiccan, etc., I would say no. Challenging someone on their religious faith tends to breed hostility, because it is hard for the person to not take such challenges personally. If the closed-mindedness comes from the other factors I talked about, then maybe. It depends on the person and how you approach the subject. Its the whole "catching flys with hones vs. vinegar" thing. If you are non-confrontational and respectful with the approach, that person may be receptive.

It's best to scope out the whole buffet before you fill up on just chicken, right? - Comicsgn

Children do not like to try new things. When they taste macaroni and cheese (and like it) they do not order putanesca the second time, instead going for the macaroni again, they are comfortable with it and no need to eat something they may not like.

My question: is it the nature of some people to be so close-minded? Is it actually wrong? - Comicsgn

Not necessarily wrong from their point of view, albeit it is from yours.

My mother also voted for Bush mostly because she's against abortion. Yet Bush is sending our troops to die in Iraq, right? So aren't we still killing lives? - Comicsgn

There is a difference in the death of the living and the unborn. The living have experienced life, feelings, done good things and bad things. The living are innocent of everything, as they have had no experience or chance. I have been given a chance to live and therefore if my life was required to let another have what i have, i would make the sacrifice.

And most importantly, aren't there bigger issues at stake than the abortion debate?- Comicsgn

Human life should come before money and other, similar issues, always.

I'm just wondering what people think about those who have a close-minded way of thinking. Is a person actually wrong for chosing to be ignorant? Am I ignorant for not recognizing that maybe it's okay to stay in your own little box? Is it worth trying to help people (like my mom) to expand their minds?...just a little- Comicsgn

It is wonderful that you open up your boundaries, some people are content with their own lives but may never experience the highs and lows of new things. They fear the bad is not worth risking for the good. The world is your playground and everything is laid out for you with a more open mind.
Although i disagree with a lack for trying new things or learning about new things, it is not wrong; they are content with their life and do not view being closed-minded as bad.

The children will never try anything but the macaroni unless made to do otherwise. Give those around you a little nudge out the door. Their fear keeps them from something they may like, so widening their horizons is helping them(sometimes). If they do not wish to accept your help, do not bother as it is their life and they choose how to live it.

I would also like to add to Harleyman's post and say that personality is formed both genetically and by education/enviroment. (nature and nurture)

Sorry for my jumping around at different topics.
Intriguing post Comics and well done rebuttal by Harley.


Have a nice day- ;)

Excellant post Harley Man. (and topic Comics)

I've long talked about the crashing down of worlds thing. When people have built up their psyche around certain structures they protect such lest everything come tumbling down. It was a bad idea to build upon such a base on in the first place. If a building has a foundation with cracks in it sooner or later it comes down.

This is why cults can grab a hold of people. They are offered a fanciful veiw of reality that is based on flawed or ignorant logic. The person persists to protect their own psyche from harm. Harm none the less that they wittingly or not brought upon themselves.

Unfortunatly this is what politics is all about. Constucting a reality to divorce people from whats really going on. It is a way to garner blind alligence, especially if you tell them they are persecuted for such.

Truth should not be kept from anyone anywhere regardless of their thoughts, feelings etc...Truth is what the world is. Ignorence is something to be done away with not fostered. Ignorence leads to fear and hate. Ignorence is only bliss if someone is standing over your soulder and pushing away reality at every turn.

I'm not talking about challenging someones beliefs. Their beliefs are there own, but they should not be allowed to deny reality either. To allow them to do such just means that someone else or something else will cause a worse crash later. True devotion to religion can only come through knowledge of the world and other religions, anything else is blind alligence.

(go here for a scary quote, the first 2 paragraphs)
http://www.lowculture.com/archives/2004/10/reality_used_to.html

"It is not truth that rules the world, but illusions"
- Kierkegaard

"Reality cannot be ignored except at a price; and the longer the ignorance is persisted in, the higher and the more terrible becomes the price that must be paid."
-- Aldous Huxley

There is a difference in the death of the living and the unborn. The living have experienced life, feelings, done good things and bad things. Everyone is guilty and deserves death?

The living are innocent of everything, as they have had no experience or chance. Yeah good thing they evacuated every single last pregnant woman and child before bombing the place to the ground... :@@:

I have been given a chance to live and therefore if my life was required to let another have what i have, i would make the sacrifice. Great, good for you, now let other people decide for themselves.

Hmmmm, i do not recall claiming that everyone is guilty and deserves death.

"Yeah good thing they evacuated every single last pregnant woman and child before bombing the place to the ground... "- 500lbguerilla

Well, not exactly sure what this has to do with that passage but okay then guerilla, keep doing your thing...

Sorry just looked like a pro-war justification that irked me.

Is anyone else gonna post on this topic? It seemed extremely interesting...

oh i see guerilla, yea my posts were not intended to talk about the iraqi conflict, but i understand now.

I guess i can keep it going.

I myself tend to think anyone is capable of rational thought- Comicsgn

Is this true? i tend to think otherwise, the chemicals in your brain may not work properly, may work differently than someone elses, or your enviroment (lack of thought and encouraged individual learning/imagination) would lead you to be unable to be completely rational. Left side of the brain and right side of the brain are dominant in various peoples.
People are led genetically or enviromentally to be capable or not so capable of being totally rational.

what do you think?

Good thought Evakian, some folks are so stuck in there own way that anything outside of their [b]train[b] of thought is wrong even when they can be proven wrong. I also believe it has to do with the personal make up chemical or whatever

Chemicals in the brain don't necessarily have to affect a person's ability to be rational. When I was younger I would wash my hands far too much because of my OCD. After therapy and medication, I've since overcome this particular compulsion. A chemical imbalance is simply another problem that one can rationalize their way through, even if it takes years. And as far as environmental influences?... It's always a choice to go with the flow or to resist. I come from a strong Catholic household, and somehow I've managed to become agnostic. You can fight/ignore/overcome chemicals issues as well as your own environment.

Your decisions truly are your own.

Your decisions truly are your own- comicsgn

Yet when you had OCD, you required medication and therapy to overcome the irrationality of the quirks that it brings, such as washing ones hands continuously. It was not your work or choice, the medicine and people around you got you through it, your personal fighting cannot change it alone.

Enviroment- something you are led to believe as the truth and there is no way its not, when presented with evidence it is not you would brush it off. Although you can rebel, it is hard since that is your way of thinking. Like Columbus making everyone think the world is flat. Even after he did his tests to prove it people still were reluctant to believe him.

Chemically- Personality and thinking processes are done through chemical reactions and electrical signals in your brain. Some people are more left brain inclined, others more to the right, breeding different views of things when presented with only one thing. What they view as truth, you do not, but they do, and to them it is truth. To you, their truth is not truth.

Both are rational from their own standpoint, even Comicsgn here has painted his own picture of "rational".

There is a very good probability that many people are not capable of this "rational thought" presented by Comicsgn. As a result of the enviroment they were raised, and possibly genetic problems would disable them.

Yet when you had OCD, you required medication and therapy to overcome the irrationality of the quirks that it brings, such as washing ones hands continuously. It was not your work or choice, the medicine and people around you got you through it, your personal fighting cannot change it alone.


The medication simply acts as a temporary buffer, relieving symptoms enough so that the patient can begin to combat it mentally. Therapists taught me how to fight the compulsions. After that, I've been able to fight the "cleaning problems" myself. OCD is never cured, it's always nagging in the back of my mind...but I fought those specific issues and won. Personal fighting alone does work eventually, it just takes training. But in the end it became and is a choice.

Either way, you still relied upon medication and the help of others. You did not change it all by yourself

I have noticed that the left has monoplized the "open minded" label. Just as the right has got the "patriotic" label. so if you are anything but left wing, you are closed minded, if you are anything but right wing you are unpatriotic. Of couse both of these are untrue, its just something I have noticed.

Originally posted by ComicsGn
My question: is it the nature of some people to be so close-minded? Is it actually wrong? I myself tend to think anyone is capable of rational thought. Then again, religion is based on irrational beliefs. BUT the least a person can do is learn about all of them and only then decide on which is best suited for themselves (if anything). You can be religious and rational at the same time.


My experience is that most relugious people are closed minded when it comes to religion. They have made up their mind that theyare right and don't want to hear about other beliefs. Part of that comes from the religion itself, most religions instill a fear of other beliefs.

As to politics, there are many people who vote for only one issue. And there are many people who will vote a party line no matter what the individual they are voteing for stands for or says or does.

Is it wrong? Well, in my world it is because I was taught to make educated decisions. But who am I to say that people should educate themselves before making a decision. There are people who could care less about the facts, there are people who will twist facts to make their point and there are people who are too stupid to understand the facts. All but the of these people tick me off but we cannot control what others do and think in a free country.

Hell, if we could make people think before the decide, we wouldn't have unwed mothers, criminals, HS drop outs, drug addicts etc.

They have made up their mind that theyare right and don't want to hear about other beliefs. Part of that comes from the religion itself, most religions instill a fear of other beliefs. - Echo2

You are generalizing, i learn about all religions, cultures, governments, and societies every chance i get.

As to politics, there are many people who vote for only one issue. And there are many people who will vote a party line no matter what the individual they are voteing for stands for or says or does.- Echo2

This is true, but you call it closed minded? What if that person values that one issue above all the others?

All but the of these people tick me off but we cannot control what others do and think in a free country. -Echo2

Even if you could force everyone to change, would you? would you see this as right?
They are not truly changing or making decisions for themselves, its not right to do that.

Evakian, read first.
"My experience is that most relugious(sic) people"

Exactly. They may be idiots, but I do not want everybody in this country to think alike. Even if they all agree with my ideals. How boring.

I have felt for a long time that we should have a president of one party and a congress of another. Little would get done and the criminals in WDC couldn't fuck us up anymore than they already have.

Yet when you had OCD, you required medication and therapy to overcome the irrationality of the quirks that it brings, such as washing ones hands continuously. It was not your work or choice, the medicine and people around you got you through it, your personal fighting cannot change it alone. I guess the difference here is that you had an entire support structure to help you eliminate what was considered 'abnormal'. Unfortunatly in todays society ignorence is considered normal and there is no real outside reinforment against such. If people were actually pushed to make themselves informed (ie: real learning) then we wouldn't have nearly as many problems.
Hell, if we could make people think before the decide, we wouldn't have unwed mothers, criminals, HS drop outs, drug addicts etc. No we would still have many of those people becuase many of those people, when made aware of the fact would still make the same decision. Lets try not to confuse information/knowledge with wisdom. One comes with effort the other with time and effort. Wisdom is much harder to come by and impossible to "inform" people of. It is regarded as opinion. Facts and knowledge however are the way the world works. Some people would be fine working as a waiter the rest of their lives and therefore could care less about highschool. They may regret it later on (due to wisdom) but given their state at the time it was the right decision for them.

Increasing knowledge will not result in a homogenous society. Echo is running on the false pretense that there is only one right answer when in fact there is no real answer only what is right for the individual at that time. The point is to increase their awareness so that they will pick whatever is best for them.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Increasing knowledge will not result in a homogenous society. Echo is running on the false pretense that there is only one right answer when in fact there is no real answer only what is right for the individual at that time. The point is to increase their awareness so that they will pick whatever is best for them. [/B]
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I agree with much of your post, 500.
When we believe that we can pick what is best for another individual we begin to have problems.
We, as individuals, seek personal contentment. What this contentment consists of seems to vary.
I have noticed that what it takes to make me personally content has changed at different periods of my life.

It seems that many of my decisions, early in life, were hormonal driven. Influences that seemed to throw caution to the wing.
As I became more experienced at seeing the result of such decisions, what we call wisdom began to enter the picture.

I personally failed to listen many times to people that had attained wisdom, because I had a false sense of my own wisdom.

In our society we tend to look, sometimes, at wisdom as that which attains financial or material gain. When in truth, I believe, that wisdom is that which leads to a contented life.

In Comics case- he seems to have had the wisdom to accept the help- which led him to a more contented existence.

Society, in general, which is comprised of individuals, seems to flurish best when those individuals are content to a certain extent.

The opposite of his content, is the opportunity that allows certain elements to come into a society, and receive backing for changes, sometimes radical in nature.
Without dis-contentment, such figures as Hitler, could not have gained the power that spawned his day in history, nor would such countries as America have been created.

On the other hand too much contentment leaves one vulnerable.
Could be that contentment with caution is the answer.

Hell "Closed-minded" people are WORSHIPPED in this soceity....

look at Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Pete Rose... they were ALL about just winning and nothing else...

And while society says the middle age guy that is a FANATIC about doing 200 situps, running 12 miles, and eating nothing but protein bars is a GOOD thing... it's actually obsession.... but the thing is the RESULT of the obsession is what society considers to be good, so the obsession is forgotten....

It's still a disorder none-the-less