Shamanfreeguerilladop and Echo, You are so offended on these threads when someone suggests you should leave the country.

How about this instead. Tell me 2 things you love about this country that you can't find somewhere else in the world that make you want to stay.

That's too easy, Brooks.

1) Their income.

2) Their lifestyle.

Everything else sucks about it, though...

I love what this country used to be. I served in its Military as did my brothers, father, grandfather, grandmother and great grandfather. I have been proud of my country most of my life. But I am not proud of it today. That does not mean I want to leave it. I haven’t always been proud of my children but I would never abandon them.

America was once the moral leader of countries that many other country’s looked up to; it stood for the things that were good and right about humanity. For many, many years it was a pillar of democracy. Unfortunately in the last 51/2 years it has become less a democracy and more of a fascist state. No longer are Americans protected by the constitution. Our rights and freedoms are being chipped away. Our government has built itself a wall of right wing and Christian fundamentalist ideology that controls all three branches of the federal government, the press and many state governments. The majority of the people of this nation have grown lazy about politics and stopped researching the information they hear. They get their information from the right wing and Christian fundamentalist ideology of the major news agencies and hate radio talk shows like mr. limbough and they never question it.

I am no longer proud of my country. The world no longer sees us as a democratic nation, a moral nation or a nation that values human life and human rights. We invade countries on the ideology of preempting an attack. That in itself is completely opposite to what democracy stands for. A free country would not preemptively attack, arrest, overthrow, etc. another country or person for something they suspect one may do or have. A democratic, free, humanitarian country would not torture its prisoners. A free country would not chip away at its own peoples freedoms under the guise of fighting a war.

We have sunk into the slim and now reside alongside our enemy. There are people in this land that are proud of this, they support preemptive wars, taking away our rights and torturing others. The true test of integrity for a human being is not doing the right thing when it is easy, it is doing the right thing when it is difficult. If this nation had any integrity it would not be torturing people, no matter who they are or what they did. If our nation had integrity it would not be preemptively invading other countries, no matter how much we don’t like them.

I do not like the direction this country is going. But that doesn’t mean I want to leave it. Rather I want to stay and do what I can to bring it back to being the great nation I was once proud of.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone else hear a lyricless version of "America the Beautiful" playing in the background when they read that???

Come to think of it, that really moved me, Echo. :(

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Just out of curiosity, did anyone else hear a lyricless version of "America the Beautiful" playing in the background when they read that???

Come to think of it, that really moved me, Echo. :(

Are you making fun of me?

Yes

Originally posted by Brooks
Tell me 2 things you love about this country that you can't find somewhere else in the world that make you want to stay.

Hmmmmmmm........

Money can be made anywhere....(although gathering up enough to move to a foreign country isn't easy)

The lifestyle I have here can no doubt be had in numerous other countries.

The only two things I can come up with are --

a) ---my family happens to live here.

I'd be very sad to leave them behind in GWBush's America, especially in light of the fact that I believe that the bullying and warmongering of this country's ConservaFascist government will eventually, ultimately, so enrage other people around the world that there will be a nuclear device detonated here, killing hundreds of thousands, in the near future. And then, of course, Gee W will immediately get World War Three off to a REAL bang.......the world war that he and the rest of the Conservafascist U.S. government --apparently-- so desperately craves.

b) ---every friend I have ever known lives here.

The only thing I see happening when one tells a person to leave America because they like to change it, is the constitution being torn in the background and the founding fathers' bones being strewn across a wasteland while merry little children giggle and prance around a heap of the bleeding bodies of veterans and presidents gone by.

Hating our government does not mean we hate our nation. And the greatest thing about America is that we are allowed to work towards change and progress, why would we leave? So it can get worse?

Let me point out that your country doesn't have to be the best at something in order for you to love it, nor does it have to have something that other countries don't. It's perfectly reasonable to love your country simply because it is yours.

Originally posted by Jester
Let me point out that your country doesn't have to be the best at something in order for you to love it, nor does it have to have something that other countries don't.

True.

But we are talking here about a country --the US-- that is by any objective viewpoint the world's leading terrorist nation.

The US will --with NO qualms or hesitation whatsoever-- kill anyone who gets in the way of profits for the huge petrochemcial and defense industries who pay for the elections.



Originally posted by Jester
It's perfectly reasonable to love your country simply because it is yours.

Not when that country is doing wrong. Not in my view.

If my brother is a child molester, I have no "love" for him based simply on the fact that he is "my" brother.

I can detach myself from the possessiveness of him being "mine" enough to find his actions abominable.

I would STILL deplore and reject his actions.

Unfortunately, for millions of Americans, that is not the case. They observe every day the great harm and criminality [in carrying out an illegal and ill-advised and destructive "war"] their nation is committing, yet they champion it regardless.

Because., well...."Hey, it's "my" country".

Pretty fucking sick, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Not when that country is doing wrong. Not in my view.

If my brother is a child molester, I have no "love" for him based simply on the fact that he is "my" brother.

I can detach myself from the possessiveness of him being "mine" enough to find his actions abominable.

I would STILL deplore and reject his actions. Absolutely. My statement carried the assumption that the person doesn't have a big reason to dislike his country. In other words, it would be reasonable for him to love it until he reason enough not to. I think where we would disagree is whether or not the US has reached such a point.

I think that there will always be people who will not like the actions of the government of the country. We conservatives had to wait until Bush got into office to get away from the liberal establishment of Clinton, Kennedy, and others. Democrats had the power in washington for over 40 years. We dealt with it and we are still dealing with the ultra liberals in washington such as Hillary, Kerry, Kennedy and others.

That being said, if the roles were reversed and the democrats were now in power I would have to deal. Though I still believe that the democratic party is in the business of not empowering people but keeping their establishment up in order to create a victim culture.

Does this mean I hate the US. Not right now cause things for once are going right. We have a Republican house, a Republican Senate, a Republican President and hopefully soon a conservative Supreme Court.

Freethinker: We are not at all a terrorist nation, to say that would suppose that we break the law all the time and strike fear in the heart of the world, we of course are the standard for freedom all over the world. When countries look at the democratic-representative form of government they look at us.

Echo: I would like to know what we are now under if we are not under the Constitution, because as I have said before there were things that the democratic party wants done and I have asked what stops them from doing it and you have always said "the constitution". Now using that if we are not under the Constitution then what are we using, and what have we lost? What freedoms are not being guaranteed now that were in the past?

i know you didnt ask me, but that is an unfair question ! its not the country that makes you mad. ! its the fuckin people ! some people are just idiots. the CONCEPT of this country is great. its mans vanity and selfishness and greed that fucks that up.......no matter the party ! so for somew idiot to say love it or leave it is unfair. i love my brother, but some of his ways suck....do i get him out of my life ? that question is too blanket ! it is not as clear cut as you make it seem.

Korg and others,
Of course it is as clear cut as I make it seem. Simply if we are not under the same constitution that was in place 220+ years ago, what are we using and what freedoms are being denied?

Originally posted by ConservativeMan
Korg and others,
Of course it is as clear cut as I make it seem. Simply if we are not under the same constitution that was in place 220+ years ago, what are we using and what freedoms are being denied? first off, i was responding to brooks, not you. and second, it is only clear to you because you believe in this lying ass administration. i never even thought of disliking a president. i didnt like everything reagan was doing, but some things were ok. bush sr, i didnt think he did bad at all....but this moron JR is an ass. and you are a PARTY man, when you should be judging individuals, for instance if this were a democrat fucking things up like this, you wouldnt think he should be on VACATION !! the individual feeling is, we dont even come close to liking this crook and his band of gay hating homosexual (go figure) flipflopping spy-outting christian pro-death penalty-anti-abortion right to life wrong country bombing supporters of osama's family, that impeached a man for a blowjob, and ripped a decorated WAR vet, while their fortunate-circumstance-quasi draft dodging asses wouldnt send their kids to a war our kids are dying in......i call them cowards !!! god bless america, but fuck the people....huh ?

That aside, you didn't answer the question. "What freedoms are being denied?"

It always amazes me to hear richtwing wackjobs scream love it or leave it when someone disagrees with their idealogy. The leftwing faction wasn't screaming love it or leave it at them when they were trying to impeach clinton for a blowjob.

conservative man posted:Echo: I would like to know what we are now under if we are not under the Constitution, because as I have said before there were things that the democratic party wants done and I have asked what stops them from doing it and you have always said "the constitution".

Please show me the posts with this exchange as I have never and would never say something like that.

What freedoms are not being guaranteed now that were in the past?

Specifically, the act allows federal agents to gather highly personal information -- including library, medical and gun purchase records-- without criminal suspicion, permits secret searches of homes and businesses with indefinite notification, and expands the definition of domestic terrorism to potentially include political protest.

It empowers federal agents to cannibalize Americans’ e-mail with Carnivore wiretaps, allows federal agents to commandeer library records, and requires banks to surrender personal account information. It also authorizes federal agents to confiscate bulk cash from travelers who fail to fill out Customs Service forms disclosing how much money they are taking out of or into the U.S. and allows the attorney general to order long-term detentions if he has “reasonable grounds to believe that the alien is engaged in any activity that endangers the national security of the United States.” Last year alone, Ashcroft personally issued 170 emergency domestic spying warrants, permitting agents to carry out wiretaps and search homes and offices for up to 72 hours before requesting a search warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

Welcome to America under the Patriot Act. Where the feds can round up everyone’s records. From books you check out to credit card purchases, money transfers to medications, your activities are now subject to federal surveillance. Uncle Sam now has a blank check to search and pry—all in the name of security.

The republicans always scream "it wouldn't bother you if you hdidn't have anything to hide." Maybe they should read up on the history of germany 1925 to 1945.

Originally posted by ConservativeMan

Does this mean I hate the US. Not right now cause things for once are going right.

Going "right for once"?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :@@: :confused: :@@: :confused: :@@:

HOW much more fucked up would things have to be --socially, economically, environmentally and on virtually every front--- before you'd admit that this country is going in the WRONG direction?!?!?!?

It is simply unimaginable to me how any sane human being could look at the current state of affairs in the US and opine ---"Hey!... THAT'S more like it!!!....things are really going great now!!"

______________________________

"In the long and harrowing five-year national nightmare we presently find ourselves trapped in, a filthy brand of governance has emerged, entrenching itself deep into our society with its claws of violence and destruction. It is a government devoid of honor or integrity, living, breathing and spewing lies and deceits, exploiting fear and insecurity to achieve its goals and manipulating an entire nation suffering through its post 9/11 insecurity and slumber into blindly following its evil dictates".------Manuel Valenzuela

Originally posted by Echo2
It always amazes me to hear richtwing wackjobs scream love it or leave it when someone disagrees with their idealogy. The leftwing faction wasn't screaming love it or leave it at them when they were trying to impeach clinton for a blowjob.
Oh yeah, and the two are totally analogous.:rolleyes:

C'mon Echo - you can do better than that.

Originally posted by Freethinker
It is simply unimaginable to me how any sane human being could look at the current state of affairs in the US and opine ---"Hey!... THAT'S more like it!!!....
Lmao. :)

Originally posted by The Praetorian
That aside, you didn't answer the question. "What freedoms are being denied?"

repost:
Specifically, the Patriot act allows federal agents to gather highly personal information -- including library, medical and gun purchase records-- without criminal suspicion, permits secret searches of homes and businesses with indefinite notification, and expands the definition of domestic terrorism to potentially include political protest.

It empowers federal agents to cannibalize Americans’ e-mail with Carnivore wiretaps, allows federal agents to commandeer library records, and requires banks to surrender personal account information. It also authorizes federal agents to confiscate bulk cash from travelers who fail to fill out Customs Service forms disclosing how much money they are taking out of or into the U.S. and allows the attorney general to order long-term detentions if he has “reasonable grounds to believe that the alien is engaged in any activity that endangers the national security of the United States.” Last year alone, Ashcroft personally issued 170 emergency domestic spying warrants, permitting agents to carry out wiretaps and search homes and offices for up to 72 hours before requesting a search warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

Welcome to America under the Patriot Act. Where the feds can round up everyone’s records. From books you check out to credit card purchases, money transfers to medications, your activities are now subject to federal surveillance. Uncle Sam now has a blank check to search and pry—all in the name of security.

The republicans always scream "it wouldn't bother you if you didn't have anything to hide." Maybe they should read up on the history of germany 1925 to 1945.

Thank you, Echo, but I read it the first time, however, maybe a better question would've been how are YOUR rights being affected at the moment? Look, I agree with you - I don't like seeing the fact that the potential exists for homeland security to invade my privacy under the guise of ensuring the "public's safety". Quite frankly, it's complete bullshit, but if your information is correct, then during the height of this terrorism madness, only 170 "domestic spying warrants" were issued. That doesn't sound like very many when you factor that we live in a country of 300,000,000. I'm guessing that the circumstances involving Ashcroft green-lighting the use of these warrants will be fairly specific to the individuals being monitored. In all honesty, you're not a target Echo, and neither am I. Our rights as American citizens won't likely EVER be infringed upon in our lifetime, so relax.

What about the American attorney who lived here in Portland and was detained for three weeks without ever knowing why for the first week. His home was searched secretly and his computer files and his car and office. Turns out he was completely innocent. He is only one of many that this has happened to since the Patriot act came into being.

The reason we have the checks and balances is to keep this sort of crap from happening. Now that the checks and balances are gone, it HAS happened and it WILL continue to happen. And it could be you or me or anyone next time.

only 170 "domestic spying warrants" were issued. Check your sources; I'll bet it's a lot more. They have to provide accurate numbers on the number of people whose privacy is being invaded.

Originally posted by Echo2
What about the American attorney who lived here in Portland and was detained for three weeks without ever knowing why for the first week?

Awww, Echo, lets not focus on him!!......he was no doubt one of them evil "socialist" Democrats out to deeeestroy the sacred 'Murican Way o Life.