If you've ever wondered why I distrust the Left with National Security, amongst other things, let me present exhibit A.


You've heard of "Girls Gone Wild" an entertainment piece showing ditzy college girls getting naked for the camera, I'm here to show you "Human Rights Gone Stupid" starring the British and how they've handled their very own 9/11. It's wonderfully entertaining, if you happen to be in sympathy with the Bin Laden types. For the rest of normal human types, it's about as refreshing as drinking a nice warm mug of pork gravy on a sweltering August afternoon. So kick back, relax, grab your mug of gravy and get a very bitter dose of reality.

First off, the British don't realize they are at war with the radical Islamic types. They are treating these terrorists acts as a police matter. Which, judging by our own experience here in the States, doesn't work very well at all. We here in the States, haul our potential terrorists off to Guantanamo for an extended stay, a military trial, and more of the extended stay in Guantanamo complete with friendly interogators and no hope of getting out any time soon. The British are unwilling to do this. For fear of a backlash from the Muslim community.

So, should the British be worried about the Muslim community in their country? Yes, for several reasons. First off, Britain has had a wave of Muslim immigration into Britain, not all of it legal. What's interesting is that these guys aren't in search of a better life. No, no, no, they are their for Jihad. First generation immigrants begin adapting to their hosts country's ways and customs. It's not happening in Britain. The sons of those Muslim immigrants are holding tighter to the ways of their native Muslim countries than what their fathers did. So there's the problem of a population of immigrants living in a country that they despise and refuse to integrate. Which leads me to the next bit.

Remember those illegal alien muslims that are flocking into Britain? These guys ain't the Boy Scouts. First they get into Britain illegally, then they get on the British Welfare dole, get free food, medical care and whatever else the British are willing to give away and they start preaching their hatred.

Case in point; Yusuf al-Qaradawi. He sneaks into Britain, and starts preaching on the finer points of Radical Islamichood. Please read carefully. He defends the 7/7 suicide bombers as martyrs. He is in favor of killing homosexuals, got to keep the Muslim bloodline clean you know (Vilepagan, head's up!), is in favor of killing of Israeli women, they've been, in his words, "militarized," hell, he has called for the killing of Jews in general, something about the "hour of Judgement" or some such. And this guy is in favor of wife beating, so long as you don't start using sticks or whips or any of that, just the hands or fist. (this one's for you, echo.)

So, why can't they just deport this guy. For a couple of reasons. The latter is particularly scary. First off, British were dumb enough to sign onto a thing called the "Human Rights Act." One of its little stipulations is that you can't deport someone who may be abused when they get to their home country. This includes criminals and terrorists. HOOOO BOY! So you see the whole scheme, do you not? These Islamists, go and blow stuff up in their native countries, get wanted by the native authorities there, flee to Britain, take up the English on their generous welfare, housing and medical programs, and preach their hatred in Britain. Of course, these terrorists would be defended by armies of civil rights lawyer types, who seem willing to defend the absolute scum of the earth, these lawyers would be sure to point that the "Human Rights Act" treaty forbids the deportation of the Bin Laden types. Is it any wonder that the Bin Laden types refer to London as "Londonistan?" London has become terrorist haven.

Then there is the little fact that the Leftist guys seem to just love the radical islamists. The mayor of London, one Ken Livingston, a hard core lefty, warmly hugged Yusuf al-Qaradawi, said he was "truly welcome" in England, called him a "moderate muslim (wtf!! :mad: ) and denounced all those who are worried about this guy as Islamophobes.

Oh, before anything can be done about changing current laws in England, the Parliment has to re-convene. They are on summer holiday and won't be back in session till OCTOBER!!!

To wrap this up, there are about 3,000 Yusuf al-Qaradawi's living in England right now, they are on the British dole, they are preaching hatred in English Mosques, they can't be deported and Parliment won't do one damn thing about it till OCTOBER when they get back from summer vacation. Is it really any wonder that British Intelligence predicts that another terrorist attack, even more lethal than their 7/7 attack is a virtual certainty?

One of the Radical Islamists claimed that they are going to use democracy to destroy democracy. I no longer wonder how they are going to go about doing so, seeing as how the British are bending over, grabbing their ankles and bracing for another blow from the whip.


Is it any wonder Britain got attacked in the first place?


Note, this posting was an summary of a New York Post column written by Irwin Stelzer titled "Britain's Challenge." If you wish to read the article for yourself, you'll have to create an account with the New York Post and type in "Irwin Stelzer Britain's Challenge" on google. I won't link to it because the link won't work for anyone not having an account with the New York Post.

Thus why im moving as soon as I have the financials to do so.

You should probably point out what is more funny, is that someone of my age illegally entering the country gets the benefits previously mentioned but me, the one who is paying the taxes to fund the benefits, gets fuck all.

If we had american mentality i feel things would be different by now, but since were mostly the polite dignified type of people, no one really wants to start anything to stop it.

Well except for NIP and BNP, who want to ethnically clense Britain.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
If you've ever wondered why I distrust the Left with National Security, amongst other things, let me present exhibit A.

Interesting piece Darth, but I don't see how this relates to the "left" as you call them.


First off, the British don't realize they are at war with the radical Islamic types. They are treating these terrorists acts as a police matter.

Good for them. It's nice to see someone treating these criminals for what they are.


Which, judging by our own experience here in the States, doesn't work very well at all.

How would we know? The first mistake Mr. Bush made was declaring these idiots "enemy combatants" and determining that this was a military matter.


We here in the States, haul our potential terrorists off to Guantanamo for an extended stay, a military trial, and more of the extended stay in Guantanamo complete with friendly interogators and no hope of getting out any time soon.

Are you comfortable with our government incarcerating people because they are "potential" criminals? All we've done so far is jail a bunch of people who may or may not be guilty of anything. You speak of military trials...what trials would those be?


The British are unwilling to do this.

Good for them.

For fear of a backlash from the Muslim community.

Perhaps they're not doing what we are doing because they know it's wrong, and won't provide them with security anyway.

So, should the British be worried about the Muslim community in their country? Yes, for several reasons. First off, Britain has had a wave of Muslim immigration into Britain, not all of it legal. What's interesting is that these guys aren't in search of a better life. No, no, no, they are their for Jihad.

Yeah, why would anyone living in that paradise called Pakistan search for a better life in the hell-hole that is England. :rolleyes:

First generation immigrants begin adapting to their hosts country's ways and customs. It's not happening in Britain. The sons of those Muslim immigrants are holding tighter to the ways of their native Muslim countries than what their fathers did. So there's the problem of a population of immigrants living in a country that they despise and refuse to integrate.

This seems a bit absurd Darth.

Remember those illegal alien muslims that are flocking into Britain? These guys ain't the Boy Scouts. First they get into Britain illegally, then they get on the British Welfare dole, get free food, medical care and whatever else the British are willing to give away and they start preaching their hatred.

No doubt there are a few muslims who do this.

Case in point; Yusuf al-Qaradawi. He sneaks into Britain, and starts preaching on the finer points of Radical Islamichood. Please read carefully. He defends the 7/7 suicide bombers as martyrs. He is in favor of killing homosexuals, got to keep the Muslim bloodline clean you know (Vilepagan, head's up!), is in favor of killing of Israeli women, they've been, in his words, "militarized," hell, he has called for the killing of Jews in general, something about the "hour of Judgement" or some such. And this guy is in favor of wife beating, so long as you don't start using sticks or whips or any of that, just the hands or fist. (this one's for you, echo.)

You're right Darth, because this guy has some pretty goofy ideas, we should just hate all muslims...after all, that's the American way, and it's just easier.

So, why can't they just deport this guy. For a couple of reasons. The latter is particularly scary. First off, British were dumb enough to sign onto a thing called the "Human Rights Act." One of its little stipulations is that you can't deport someone who may be abused when they get to their home country. This includes criminals and terrorists. HOOOO BOY! So you see the whole scheme, do you not? These Islamists, go and blow stuff up in their native countries, get wanted by the native authorities there, flee to Britain, take up the English on their generous welfare, housing and medical programs, and preach their hatred in Britain. Of course, these terrorists would be defended by armies of civil rights lawyer types, who seem willing to defend the absolute scum of the earth, these lawyers would be sure to point that the "Human Rights Act" treaty forbids the deportation of the Bin Laden types. Is it any wonder that the Bin Laden types refer to London as "Londonistan?" London has become terrorist haven.

Darth, you seem to be resorting to some dubious tactics here....you imply that the "left" is somehow responsible by tossing in the phrase "army of civil rights lawyers" even though you cite no such person "supporting the Bin Laden types".

Do you really believe that England would refuse to deport Bin Laden to the US if they had him?

Then there is the little fact that the Leftist guys seem to just love the radical islamists.

Now you're just spouting stupid nonsense, and I know you're smarter than that Darth.


The mayor of London, one Ken Livingston, a hard core lefty, warmly hugged Yusuf al-Qaradawi, said he was "truly welcome" in England, called him a "moderate muslim (wtf!! :mad: ) and denounced all those who are worried about this guy as Islamophobes.

This is what Ken Livingston had to say on 7/7/05:
This was a cowardly attack, which has resulted in injury and loss of life. Our thoughts are with everyone who has been injured, or lost loved ones. I want to thank the emergency services for the way they have responded.

Following the al-Qaeda attacks on September 11th in America we conducted a series of exercises in London in order to be prepared for just such an attack. One of the exercises undertaken by the government, my office and the emergency and security services was based on the possibility of multiple explosions on the transport system during the Friday rush hour. The plan that came out of that exercise is being executed today, with remarkable efficiency and courage, and I praise those staff who are involved.

I'd like to thank Londoners for the calm way in which they have responded to this cowardly attack and echo the advice of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair - do everything possible to assist the police and take the advice of the police about getting home today.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this is a terrorist attack. We did hope in the first few minutes after hearing about the events on the Underground that it might simply be a maintenance tragedy. That was not the case. I have been able to stay in touch through the very excellent communications that were established for the eventuality that I might be out of the city at the time of a terrorist attack and they have worked with remarkable effectiveness. I will be in continual contact until I am back in London.

I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.

That isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I'm proud to be the mayor of that city.

Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life.

I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail.

In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.

They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don't want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.


This "hard core lefty" understands the situation better than you do Darth.


Oh, before anything can be done about changing current laws in England, the Parliment has to re-convene. They are on summer holiday and won't be back in session till OCTOBER!!!

The US Congress is on summer recess too...what's your point?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Good for them. It's nice to see someone treating these criminals for what they are.

They are a large organised group of people attacking a country, you dont think this deserves military intervention?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
They are a large organised group of people attacking a country, you dont think this deserves military intervention?

No. I think it's like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
No. I think it's like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

Fair enough, decent enough analogy

They are a large organised group of people attacking a country, you dont think this deserves military intervention? Wow, what are you smoking?

First of all they are not large. How many attack(er)s? How many convictions? How many with even a shred of evidence against them? "But the TV tells me so..." yeah great

Secondly, Organized? They operate in autonomous cells. There is no organization what-so-ever.

Third, military intervention? So what exeactly can the military do that the cops can't? They already held an innocent man down and shot him in the middle of the day. What you want them to blow up houses or something?

First off, British were dumb enough to sign onto a thing called the "Human Rights Act." One of its little stipulations is that you can't deport someone who may be abused when they get to their home country. Stupid British thinking Humans have rights...

I mean Outsourcing Torture works great right? Its not like theyre gonna make people even more pissed off enough to blow shit up right?...
http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13004

Pagan,

Thank you for your rebuttalls. It's nice to have intelligent opposition with name calling kept to a minimum.

While you may believe otherwise, I wasn't indulging in name calling when I voiced concern that the Left doesn't take this war, and yes it's a war, not with terrorism or terrorist, but a war of culture and ideas and I will go so far as to say that most of society simply doesn't understand the stakes nor the reasons and they don't know how to defend the open Western culture they enjoy.


I've posted why Radical Islamists hate the West and what their goals are. I believe that the Left seriously underestimates just how truly fanatical the Islamists really are. The West isn't going to appease these guys by pulling out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or even stopping all support to Israel. Those are merely symptoms of a much greater conflict and it's a war over culture. Over beliefs, ideaology and identity. The Radical Muslims truly wish to have a society ruled by the edicts of Allah as written down in the Koran. The U.S., and Britain for that matter, stands in the way, which is why 9/11 and the 7/7 attacks happened. It isn't the military that is the chief obstacle. It's the culture. There is no shutting out of Western culture in this day and age and hasn't been a way of doing so for almost a century. It's about a society that wishes to be governed by strict religious beliefs, rules and customs against one that is open, dynamic and gives each person to define their own morality through choice. Western culture is spreading like an invisible gas, the wealth, innovations, style, music, movies ideas and choices of how someone wishes to live are all finding themselves into the Middle East. Bin Laden himself has said that Islam is facing its greatest threat since the days of Muhamad himself, and he knew EXACTLY what he was talking about. Not that you will, but I would urge you to pick up a book called "What's So Great About America" and start reading Amir Taheri articles. Both spell out the what I've been trying to say far more eloquently than I can.

Now to the points you've laid out in your posting.

Yes, why would a Muslim want to stay in a hell hole of a country like Pakistan when they can enjoy the wealth and comfort of Britain? I will agree with you, that even the most rabid of the Islamists truly do love the comforts and wealth of the West. But these guys are not impressed by Western abundance. They see the West (any Western nation) as debased, immoral, money grubbing wreck of a society. The Islamists want a theocracy. That is why they can come to Britain, my example, enjoy the comforts there and still preach jihad.


My point about Muslims emmigrating to the West, particlarly Europe, and not integrating into society, the point which you called "absurd." Well, the article itself states it, if you care to read it. There have been reports of Muslims being left out of society in France and Germany. An author of a book critical of Islam was assassinated in the Netherlands. Hell, the ones responsible for the terror attacks in Britain were born and raised there. They had to get quite a bit of motivation and a huge dose of Western hatred to be willing to die to defend Islam. If that doesn't sould like there is an element of Radical Islam in Britain that is having just a bit of a problem integrating into Western society, I don't know what such a problem would be.


Also, your point about just a "few" muslims holding to radical views. Okay, I'll agree with that, it's just a "few" Muslim. I really should've bookmarked the poll I saw about just how many British Muslims were out and out in sympathy with the 7/7 attackers and how many "understood" why those attackers did what they did. It was something on the order of 25% or 30% for the latter. Just how many Radical Muslims, in a greater society of more "moderate" Muslims would it take before you've got a serious problem with Muslims. The IRA didn't enjoy active support from the majority of Irish, but it was still enough to give the British a very serious problem.

And while I'm on the subject, I have NEVER advocated hating all muslims. But neither do I advocate letting some 3,000 of the Radical Islamists run loose in Britain preaching anti-Western hatred. And the reason the American Congress is in recess is because WE haven't had a terrorist attack here in the States, nor were we dumb enough to sign a "Human Rights" treaty that doesn't allow for the deportation nor detention of the worst sort of human beings. For Parliment to be on vacation when it has become patently obvious that they have a serious terrorist problem is simply inexcusable. Dammit.


And no, Vile, I'm not impressed with Ken Livingston's little rah rah speech at all. Not after embracing one of the true scums of the earth and then being outraged when something like the 7/7 attacks got pulled off. The only parts he got right was that the terrorists were not afraid to take their own life and they are out to destroy a free society. The 7/7 attacks were not cowardly attacks. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak, the Bin Laden types know they can't go toe to toe with the U.S. or Britain and have resorted to any means necessary to bring down Western society. Also, notice that Livingston, nor Tony Blair for that matter, didn't call the Muslim terrorists, muslim terrorists. He just referred to them as terrorists. Again, HE fears a Muslim backlash and fears their enmity. Read that speech again. He still isn't taking a stand against radical islam. I myself wouldn't have welcomed a Yusuf al-Qaradawi, nor would I have stepped away from blaming radical islam for being responsible for the 7/7 attacks. I think I understand terrorism just a bit more than he does.

Dammit.

I've posted why Radical Islamists hate the West and what their goals are. I believe that the Left seriously underestimates just how truly fanatical the Islamists really are. The West isn't going to appease these guys by pulling out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or even stopping all support to Israel. Those are merely symptoms of a much greater conflict and it's a war over culture. Yeah right and Black people just hate cops becuase they don't like white picket fences and apple pie...

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Pagan,

Thank you for your rebuttalls. It's nice to have intelligent opposition with name calling kept to a minimum.

Agreed, and thanks Darth.


While you may believe otherwise, I wasn't indulging in name calling when I voiced concern that the Left doesn't take this war, and yes it's a war, not with terrorism or terrorist, but a war of culture and ideas and I will go so far as to say that most of society simply doesn't understand the stakes nor the reasons and they don't know how to defend the open Western culture they enjoy.

If it's a war it's a war unlike one we've ever fought before, and it's not so much a shooting war as a war of ideas. I submit that this war of ideas has been going on for some time and this is just a flare-up perhaps. My main problem is that our government seems to think they can win this war with the military, and I believe that is a false hope.


I've posted why Radical Islamists hate the West and what their goals are. I believe that the Left seriously underestimates just how truly fanatical the Islamists really are. The West isn't going to appease these guys by pulling out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or even stopping all support to Israel. Those are merely symptoms of a much greater conflict and it's a war over culture. Over beliefs, ideaology and identity.

To some it is, to others it's completely unfathomable.


The Radical Muslims truly wish to have a society ruled by the edicts of Allah as written down in the Koran. The U.S., and Britain for that matter, stands in the way, which is why 9/11 and the 7/7 attacks happened. It isn't the military that is the chief obstacle. It's the culture. There is no shutting out of Western culture in this day and age and hasn't been a way of doing so for almost a century. It's about a society that wishes to be governed by strict religious beliefs, rules and customs against one that is open, dynamic and gives each person to define their own morality through choice. Western culture is spreading like an invisible gas, the wealth, innovations, style, music, movies ideas and choices of how someone wishes to live are all finding themselves into the Middle East. Bin Laden himself has said that Islam is facing its greatest threat since the days of Muhamad himself, and he knew EXACTLY what he was talking about. Not that you will, but I would urge you to pick up a book called "What's So Great About America" and start reading Amir Taheri articles. Both spell out the what I've been trying to say far more eloquently than I can.

Well said Darth, but my question to you would be "Why do you let the radical islamists define the terms of the conflict?"

Now to the points you've laid out in your posting.


My point about Muslims emmigrating to the West, particlarly Europe, and not integrating into society, the point which you called "absurd." Well, the article itself states it, if you care to read it. There have been reports of Muslims being left out of society in France and Germany. An author of a book critical of Islam was assassinated in the Netherlands. Hell, the ones responsible for the terror attacks in Britain were born and raised there. They had to get quite a bit of motivation and a huge dose of Western hatred to be willing to die to defend Islam. If that doesn't sould like there is an element of Radical Islam in Britain that is having just a bit of a problem integrating into Western society, I don't know what such a problem would be.

I agree that there are individuals that have emigrated to western Europe and the US who hold a great deal of animosity for their adopted countries but I think the numbers of such people are small. I will say the number is likely growing and this is a problem worth addressing.


Also, your point about just a "few" muslims holding to radical views. Okay, I'll agree with that, it's just a "few" Muslim. I really should've bookmarked the poll I saw about just how many British Muslims were out and out in sympathy with the 7/7 attackers and how many "understood" why those attackers did what they did. It was something on the order of 25% or 30% for the latter. Just how many Radical Muslims, in a greater society of more "moderate" Muslims would it take before you've got a serious problem with Muslims. The IRA didn't enjoy active support from the majority of Irish, but it was still enough to give the British a very serious problem.

Ok it's a serious problem. Is it a problem that can be solved militarily?

And while I'm on the subject, I have NEVER advocated hating all muslims. But neither do I advocate letting some 3,000 of the Radical Islamists run loose in Britain preaching anti-Western hatred.

I'm reasonably certain that the Brits are doing a good job watching a lot of those individuals, and I'd also wager they've got a few people inside some of the radical groups.


The 7/7 attacks were not cowardly attacks. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak, the Bin Laden types know they can't go toe to toe with the U.S. or Britain and have resorted to any means necessary to bring down Western society.

Exactly how are the Bin Laden types going to "bring down" western society?

They sure as hell aren't going to do it one airplane/train load at a time.


Also, notice that Livingston, nor Tony Blair for that matter, didn't call the Muslim terrorists, muslim terrorists. He just referred to them as terrorists. Again, HE fears a Muslim backlash and fears their enmity.

While you may be correct in your description of what Livingston said (or didn't say), I don't agree with your assessment of his motives.


Read that speech again. He still isn't taking a stand against radical islam.

Perhaps not, but I think he did something much better...he made a fine statement for something rather than a statement denouncing something else...we need more fair words, not more angry denunciations.


I myself wouldn't have welcomed a Yusuf al-Qaradawi, nor would I have stepped away from blaming radical islam for being responsible for the 7/7 attacks. I think I understand terrorism just a bit more than he does.

Dammit.

I think one point you are missing is this part of Livingston's statement:
In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.

They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don't want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.

The point here Darth is that the terrorists cannot achieve their goal unless we let them.

The terrorists want you to believe this war is about Islam. Most Islamic people would disagree with them, and you should too. The terrorists are just murderous thugs, nothing more. The terrorists ultimate goal is to set Islam against the West, and they do this by spreading fear and hatred. Don't give in to the fear, and don't believe for one minute that these creeps have anything to do with Islam. It is to our ongoing disadvantage to treat them as anything but international criminals of the worst sort. To place the mantle of "Jihadist" upon their shoulders, or annoint them with the relatively respectable title of "enemy combatant" is a huge mistake, and one that should be corrected at the earliest opportunity.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
[I agree that there are individuals that have emigrated to western Europe and the US who hold a great deal of animosity for their adopted countries but I think the numbers of such people are small. I will say the number is likely growing and this is a problem worth addressing.
. [/B]
You could also add that their own countries are often run by tinpot, crooked tyrants who are backed by our 'freedom-loving' governments, so they can hardly be expected to go home.