http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0322-01.htm

Today, It is We Americans Who Live in Infamy
----------by Arthur Schlesinger Jr.


NEW YORK -- Let us continue to ask why our government chose to impose this war. The choice reflects a fatal turn in U.S. foreign policy, in which the strategic doctrine of containment and deterrence that led us to peaceful victory during the Cold War has been replaced by the Bush Doctrine of preventive war. The president has adopted a policy of "anticipatory self-defense" that is alarmingly similar to the policy that imperial Japan employed at Pearl Harbor on a date which, as an earlier American president said it would, lives in infamy.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was right, but today it is we Americans who live in infamy. The global wave of sympathy that engulfed the United States after 9/11 has given way to a global wave of hatred of American arrogance and militarism. Public opinion polls in friendly countries regard George W. Bush as a greater threat to peace than Saddam Hussein. Demonstrations around the planet, instead of denouncing the vicious rule of the Iraqi president, assail the United States on a daily basis.

The Bush Doctrine converts us into the world's judge, jury and executioner -- a self-appointed status that, however benign our motives, is bound to corrupt our leadership. As John Quincy Adams warned on July 4, 1821, the fundamental maxims of our policy "would insensibly change from liberty to force ... [America] might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit." Already the collateral damage to our civil liberties and constitutional rights, carried out by the religious fanatic who is our attorney general, is considerable -- and more is still to come.

Read it ALL at -----

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0322-01.htm

Originally posted by Freethinker
Public opinion polls in friendly countries regard George W. Bush as a greater threat to peace than Saddam Hussein.

They hated Reagan, they hated Bush 41. In 1973, Tussaud's Wax Museum voted President Nixon the most feared and hated man in history. Hitler was # 2.

This is nothing new.

http://www.amiannoying.com/(ygvutb55za3knt45ane1hq45)/collection.aspx?collection=386

It always seems that no leader is ever perfect, Liberal or Conservative. We are human. We just dictate policy for the well being of the rest of the world. We are not dictators and we never will be. As Truman said, "It sure is hell to be president".

Originally posted by ConservativeMan
It always seems that no leader is ever perfect, Liberal or Conservative. We are human. We just dictate policy for the well being of the rest of the world.

Observing America's first couple hundred years of history leads to the unshakeable conclusion that America ---being led since its inception by conservative, pro-corporate governments--- does almost NOTHING, makes virtually NO decision, almost never impliments or dictates a policy with the underlying thought--"What would be best for the rest of the world?"

American political leadership for centuries has made policy decisions with one underlying ideology; to wit ------- "Fuck the rest of the planet and it's people. Fuck "peace". Fuck the global consensus. Fuck worldwide human rights. Fuck the environment. Let us do what is best for the well being of the wealthiest Americans".

Foaming at the mouth again, freethinker?

First off, name me any country that doesn't put its own interests ahead of other countries. I can't wait to hear this one!

Out of curiosity, just who is it we are supposed to be at "peace" with? Saddam? The Taliban? The PLO? North Korea? Iran? The Chi-coms?

That's a short list of countries that have zero regard for human rights, whom I doubt they care very much about the environment and would say "fuck the rest of the world" to get what they want.

Just how is it we are supposed to have "peace" with that fine group of nations I've listed? Give them nuclear material and make them promise not to go and make bombs from it? Jimmy Carter tried that, didn't work too damn well, did it?

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Foaming at the mouth again, freethinker?

Darth, we don't expect you to understand. Some people work for peace as their goal, while others maintain killing as their goal. Of course the killers try and justify it with wonderfull little slogans that basically boil down to "KILL FOR PEACE".


Rightwingeers have made it very clear where their hearts are at.

Today, It is We Americans Who Live in Infamy
I think this should read "infantcy"

Americans overriding stereotypical feature seems to be they don't want to be bothered with thinking about anything beyond themselves (and still then they could sue someone).

Americans don't want to think, they want to be entertained.

Its arguable that this is a core human drive and that America just happens to be ripe with entertainment and therfore lacking in thought. However the Brits tend to think a little bit more about things so....

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal

First off, name me any country that doesn't put its own interests ahead of other countries.

I do not know of any country that does not put its own interests first.

But then, I have not suggested or hinted at any such thing.

Most countries other than the US, however, do not possess a trillion dollar war machine that is used to kill anyone who gets in the way of profits for US Corporations.

And too, most countries other than the US pursue those *self-interests* without terrorizing the rest of the planet.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Out of curiosity, just who is it we are supposed to be at "peace" with? Saddam? The Taliban? The PLO? North Korea? Iran? The Chi-coms?
That's a short list of countries that have zero regard for human rights..........

Uhhhh.....errr........Darth??.......about your "list of countries".......uhhh........I uhh...I hate to break this to you, but .......uhh.....*Saddam* is not a "country".

The Taliban is not a "country".

The PLO is not a "country".

And I think the term *the Chi-coms* refers to ""the Chinese Communists""..........which is a group of people instead of a country.


Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Just how is it we are supposed to have "peace" with that fine group of nations I've listed?

Stop supporting a genocidal Israeli regime. Stop killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Stop installing unwanted military bases in Muslim countries. Stop terrorizing the rest of the planet in order to make it available for US Corporations to plunder.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Give them nuclear material and make them promise not to go and make bombs from it? Jimmy Carter tried that, didn't work too damn well, did it?

Last I checked, no country has used a nuclear weapon against us.

Whatever Carter did, it certainly had far less negative an effect on this country than what happened after Reagan aided and supplied (in effect *creating*) Osama bin Laden.

It certainly had far less negative an effect than what happened after Reagan authorized the sale of chemical and biological weaponry to Saddam.

And it certainly had far less negative an effect than what happened after Bush and his co-conspirators made certain that nothing got in the way of the terrorists carrying out their 9/11 attacks.

One last comment for you, Darth...........

[i]"The purpose of the U.S. military is not to protect the United States, nor to help foster democracy throughout the world. The U.S. military has become a very powerful repressive tool with which to protect the right of capitalist corporations to exploit resources and labor throughout the world. The US military is a police force, policing the world for a fascist superpower."

Let me guess Freethinker...

Clinton was the second coming of Christ :rolleyes:

Originally posted by DrewM
Let me guess Freethinker...

Clinton was the second coming of Christ :rolleyes:

Horrendously misguided *guess* on your part.

I despised Clinton.

He was not the second coming of anyone.....he was the 42nd coming of *Yet Another BigBusiness Lackey* who cared little to nothing about the People of this country and everything about the people who paid to have him elected -----iow, the wealthy corporatists who run the country.

But then, unlike the vast majority of rightwingers in this country, i did not stay awake nights worrying about who he was having sex with.

I could not have cared less.

Ok then maybe Stalin, Castro, Pol Pot are your hero's?

You are basically against civilization as we know it...

Originally posted by DrewM
Ok then maybe Stalin, Castro, Pol Pot are your hero's?

Hey, you forgot to throw in Hitler and Attila the Hun!!

I mean, you know, as long as we're going into absurd exaggerations...........

Getting back to reality, the only person I can think of who i'd look up to as a 'hero' is Gore Vidal. He's not a world leader......but the world would be a far better place if he and men like him WERE world leaders.

I'd also put Michael Parenti and Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky in that class.



Originally posted by DrewM
You are basically against civilization as we know it...

Nope.

Only as America "knows" it.

"What's my problem with America? The dumb certitude;
the blind conformity; the contempt for the poor; the facile amiability; the ostentatious
religiosity; the callous laws; the love of guns; the Hollywood sensibility; the
all-consuming fetish for material success; the showy insubstantiality of the politics;
the celebrity junk; the infantile literal-mindedness; and the faith, withal, in America's
planetary moral superiority - in the notion that the American way of life is the best ever
devised, that America is, in Lincoln's phrase, "the last best hope" for mankind.

Originally posted by Freethinker
"What's my problem with America? The dumb certitude;
the blind conformity; the contempt for the poor; the facile amiability; the ostentatious
religiosity; the callous laws; the love of guns; the Hollywood sensibility; the
all-consuming fetish for material success; the showy insubstantiality of the politics;
the celebrity junk; the infantile literal-mindedness; and the faith, withal, in America's
planetary moral superiority - in the notion that the American way of life is the best ever
devised, that America is, in Lincoln's phrase, "the last best hope" for mankind.
That's funny, the only thing America has a problem with are people like you. It sounds to me like you pretty much hate everything here with the exception of your house, cars, Internet connection, salary, and lifestyle. If only you could afford to leave, ay? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Freethinker
Hey, you forgot to throw in Hitler and Attila the Hun!!
No, he probably would have been better off just leaving it at Castro and Guevara, right?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
he probably would have been better off just leaving it at Castro and Guevara, right?

Che Guevara was not mentioned.......but since Che strongly opposed the capitalist oligarchy, was contemptuous of militarist politicians and US imperialism, he is definitely someone worthy of the admiration of poor and working class people everywhere.

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0553406647.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Actually the American Government supported and supplied Pol Pot.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Che Guevara was not mentioned.......but since Che strongly opposed the capitalist oligarchy, was contemptuous of militarist politicians and US imperialism, he is definitely someone worthy of the admiration of poor and working class people everywhere.
You've gotta be kidding me...the man was a monster, period. So what if he championed the poor? He also personally oversaw the shooting of suspected informers, insubordinates, deserters and spies in the revolutionary army. He helped guide the Castro regime on its socialist, proto-communist, path, while prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, Guevara was part of a Cuban delegation to Moscow where he endorsed the planned placement of Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba. Guevara also told Sam Russell, a British correspondent for the socialist newspaper, that if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have fired them. That would have killed MILLIONS of innocent Americans, but I suppose that's perfectly acceptable to you. You know the caliber of asshole you're dealing with here strikes you as amazing when you consider the fact that the Soviet Union was more reasonable than he was. Face it, the man was a fucking piece of shit, and if I could travel back in time, I'd gladly put a clip of 230 grain .45 hydroshocks in that ruthless, commie fucking melon of his.

Prae,
You forget that most liberals still think that the " glorious communist revolution " is still going to happen. They also think that if anything happens to them then it must be the big corporate businesses and not anything they did. All liberals contribute to the victim culture, blame the man, it is the only way they can survive.

Che Guevara is just a pop art T-Shirt now. People have no more understanding of him today than the people with X's on their baseball hats had of Malcolm X ten years ago.

Originally posted by ConservativeMan
Prae,
You forget that most liberals still think that the " glorious communist revolution " is still going to happen. They also think that if anything happens to them then it must be the big corporate businesses and not anything they did. All liberals contribute to the victim culture, blame the man, it is the only way they can survive. Now just back up those claims and you might have a worthwhile argument.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
You've gotta be kidding me...the man was a monster, period. So what if he championed the poor? He also personally oversaw the shooting of suspected informers, insubordinates, deserters and spies in the revolutionary army.

Yes...that was pretty "monstrous", i guess.

Nowhere NEAR ----not by one millionth of a degree---- as *monstrous* as bombing thousands upon thousands of innocent civilains from 30,000 feet in a war based purely on lies, a war that is being fought soley for the purpose of controlling the oil resources in a certain area of the world.

But still, pretty monstrous.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
He helped guide the Castro regime on its socialist, proto-communist, path...

So????!

He struggled to promote his political ideology, the SAME way that the ConservaFascist politicians in the US try to promote THEIR uber-conservative, pro-corporate ideology and agenda.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Guevara also told Sam Russell, a British correspondent for the socialist newspaper, that if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have fired them. That would have killed MILLIONS of innocent Americans.....

The difference being that Che MIGHT have done it, while the United States Government HAS done it.

Below is a PARTIAL list of the murders commited by the US Government in the pursuit of protecting US interests........

· 3,000,000 Vietnamese murdered over the course of about 30 years of US aggression.

· Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

· 600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975.

· Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to “secret bombing” from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees.

· 100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island.

· Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War.

· 200,000 were murdered when the Philippines were conquered by American forces. (This took place just over 100 years ago.)

· 23,000 people were slaughtered in Taiwan by US-backed, trained, equipped, and funded forces (Chiang’s Nationalist army) during the late 1940s.

· 700,000 Indonesians (mostly landless peasants) were murdered in 1965 when the US armed and supported General Suharto.

· 200,000 were slaughtered in East Timor in 1975 by General Suharto with US support.

· 750,000 civilians were driven from their homes in East Timor by Indonesian forces in 1999 and 10,000 were killed.

· Over 1,700,000 Iraqis have been killed by US bombings and sanctions, mostly women and children.

· Over 1,000,000 lives were lost during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s in which the US used direct force and supported Hussein and Iraq.

· 35,000 Kurds were killed, 3,500 villages were destroyed, and between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 became homeless as a result of aggression by Turkey with US arming and training in the 1990s.

· Over 1,000,000 people were killed in Afghanistan’s civil war from 1979 to 1992, in which the US strongly supported the Moujahedeen, the most violent and sadistic of the forces. (This also set the stage for the CIA-backed Taliban to attain power.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Che was a piker by comparison.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Che was a piker by comparison.

I didn't realize that doing something bad is OK as long as someone else does more of it. I believe you would call that reich-wing logic.

FT - Re-read your last post. You sound just like the people you complain about. bushco supporters are continuesly supporting his dirty deeds by saying "others have done it". You are doing the same thing with Che.

The volume or number of a particular action done previously does not make it legitimate and certainly is not an excuse for continueing or repeating the action.

Just how much of that stuff are you smoking?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I didn't realize that doing something bad is OK as long as someone else does more of it.

Huh?? I am not aware of anyone doing that.

I believe a quick check of my last post will reveal that I said the OPPOSITE of --"It's ok".

After Prae pointed out to me that Che was responsible for overseeing the shooting of suspected informers, insubordinates, deserters and spies in the revolutionary army, I stated that Che's actions in that regard were **pretty monstrous**.

I then went on to say that what the US has done is even MORE monstrous.

I was not excusing Che's actions....

...Che --- if indeed he did oversee the shooting of suspected informers and insubordinates----did something somewhat monstrous.

The US Government however did something EXTREMELY monstrous.

My point was to Prae, who on the one hand said he would have gladly murdered Che Guevara in cold blood because of what HE did, while at the same time he completely excuses or ignores the FAR more murderous and destructive actions of his own government in the furtherance of its agenda.


Originally posted by LionelHutz
I believe you would call that reich-wing logic.

While what you're doing would be called "complete absence of logic".

Or, the shorter version ----------*a lie*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

{note to Echo------please read the above to see your --"Hey, you're doing the same things as the Reichwingers!"-- accusation invalidated}

Originally posted by Freethinker
I believe a quick check of my last post will reveal that I said the OPPOSITE of --"It's ok".

Right. Of course I guess we're supposed to ignore this:

Originally posted by Freethinker
but since Che strongly opposed the capitalist oligarchy, was contemptuous of militarist politicians and US imperialism, he is definitely someone worthy of the admiration of poor and working class people everywhere.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Or, the shorter version ----------*a lie*.

You throw that around rather casually. Feel free to join the adult conversation at any point.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Right. Of course I guess we're supposed to ignore this: "but since Che strongly opposed the capitalist oligarchy, was contemptuous of militarist politicians and US imperialism, he is definitely someone worthy of the admiration of poor and working class people everywhere"

My point was to Prae, (and other Rightwingers of similar mindset) who on the one hand has said he would have gladly murdered Che Guevara in cold blood because of Che's "monstrous" actions, while at the same time he completely excuses or ignores the FAR more murderous and destructive actions of his own government in the furtherance of its agenda.

And you can feel free to join reality at any time.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Actually the American Government supported and supplied Pol Pot.

:comphit:

Originally posted by Freethinker
My point was to Prae, (and other Rightwingers of similar mindset) who on the one hand has said he would have gladly murdered Che Guevara in cold blood because of Che's "monstrous" actions, while at the same time he completely excuses or ignores the FAR more murderous and destructive actions of his own government in the furtherance of its agenda.
A perfect example of this being bogus, is your continued push to write a revisionist history of the world around you through points that you're misinterpreting because you're a half-baked peacenik with no sense of reality. Take these statements for example:

Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

(Oh, how horrible. They had only attacked us first, crippled our navy, killed our serviceman and citizens, and swore to repeat it again on a larger scale. Well, thanks to us giving them aluminum, and other sciences, look what sprung from their country economically. We rebuilt them AS WE DID Germany, and look at them now...)

100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island.

(And the South Koreans should be kissing our harry bean sac for not letting the North Koreans kill millions of their citizens, and also, we helped them develop one of the fastest growing economies of all time - again, what's your point?)

There are so many others I could comment on, but it won't matter - you won't see it logically either way. Half of that list consisted of recycled numbers, and the other half were caused by the direct actions of others. Many of those statements were simply a repeated way of saying the same thing in different lines as evidence of "our" aggression. Look, FT, we pick sides to further our political and financial agenda, period, and nothing will ever change that. At the root of it is greed. Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies and cuts through and captures the essence of evolutionary spirit. Greed in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, and for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind, and greed, you mark my words, will not only save your own ass, but our country in general. It doesn't mean you have to kick your fellow man, but it does mean that you'll catch him with his pants down, and fuck him when he invites it. It's a dog eat dog world - so either get with the program, or leave, but for the love of god, don't waste our time yammering.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
A perfect example of this being bogus, is your continued push to write a revisionist history of the world around you through points that you're misinterpreting because you're a half-baked peacenik with no sense of reality. Take these statements for example:

""Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
""

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Oh, how horrible. They had only attacked us first, crippled our navy, killed our serviceman and citizens, and swore to repeat it again on a larger scale.

They attacked us, but they did so because it was arranged for them to attack. FDR purposely left the gate open for them to enter and attack so that he could incite the sheep to agree to enter the war.

Was it necessary that the US eventually enter WWII??........probably. It would have no doubt been thrust upon us at some point in time. FDR pushed the process along and insured that he would have the support of the gullible masses........and Bush did the same thing with 9/11........with the HUGE difference being that the Iraq war was and is COMPLETELY unecessary and useless.

[i]Originally posted by The Praetorian
Look, FT, we pick sides to further our political and financial agenda, period, and nothing will ever change that.

Yes, we DO.

I agree that that is true, though i view it as despicable.


Originally posted by The Praetorian
At the root of it is greed.

We are in 100% agreement.


Originally posted by The Praetorian
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right.

I disagree completely.


Originally posted by The Praetorian
Greed works. Greed clarifies and cuts through and captures the essence of evolutionary spirit.

I disagree.

The greed of the political cabal running this country ""works"" in the SAME way that greed works for a person (person K) who kills another person (person V) .

Person K wants the wealth he sees that person V possesses, so he kills him and takes all V's possessions.

Now, person K has the money.

His greed "worked".

But is it a fair, just or equitable way for a person, a society, or a nation, or a group of leaders to operate??!?!?!

No.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Greed in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, and for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind

I would call it a yearning for love, a lust for life, and a compulsion to seek knowledge.

Quite different than a "greed" for those things.

Greed concerns taking something tangible and real ---like money, or oil, or human labor--- from others and leaving them with less than they had [or nothing] in the process.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
......and greed, you mark my words, will not only save your own ass, but our country in general.

Greed will....in the very near future....destroy mankind.

Greed will soon spell the complete collapse of this society, and perhaps the outright destruction [by nuclear annihiliation] of the entire world.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Greed will....in the very near future....destroy mankind.

Greed will soon spell the complete collapse of this society, and perhaps the outright destruction [by nuclear annihiliation] of the entire world.
They deploy a dirty-bomb here, and everyone in the world will die - you're right about that. What's living life worth if you have no backbone while you do it? If they pull anymore shit with us, then I'd offer the people there an alternative to certain death. Simply turn in the guilty parties for purification, or we'll kill everyone. We'll turn the fucking sand into glass, and watch it all happen on cable before we eat shit from China and Russia. As silly as this sounds, the fabled "dooms day machine" in Dr. Strangelove wasn't such a ridiculous concept. Simple equation: We die = They die, period.

Originally posted by Freethinker
They attacked us, but they did so because it was arranged for them to attack. FDR purposely left the gate open.... .....so that he could incite the sheep to agree to enter the war....... FDR pushed the process along and insured that he would have the support of the gullible masses........and Bush did the same thing with 9/11.........

The further we get from an actual event, the more vulnerable certain people are to conspiratorial revisionism. You can also find authorities who swear we didn't walk on the moon and the holocaust didn't happen.

Freethinker has a point about FDR. It's been known for some time, but the actual records just recently released, how he and Churchill met on a battleship in the middle of the Atlantic during the early days of the European war and cooked up a scheme wherein we would enter the war..an attack on us seemed to them the best way to do it.It is very odd, how our carriers were absent from Pearl Harbor that day, gone on an "exercise". I do support us being in this war (WWII) --we HAD to do something. however, the way it was brought about was not good.