I would like to comment on this subject, and get the opinions of others.

During my lifetime I have seen what appeared to be the benefit of prayer.
It seemed not to matter, how or what you prayed to.
I have read where Doctors have said that people that have a faith in something, tend to recover at a more rapid rate than people that did not.

In my life I have prayed at various times, sometimes with what seemed like good results.
Even when I was a High Priest in Wica, with a coven of several Witches, we seemed to get good results praying to nature and all that is.

Positive prayer, to me, seems to stimulate positive things.
Whether it is a stimulation of the human body or a stimulation of a natural, universal process we do not understand, I do not know.
I just believe that it is o.k. and a natural thing to do.

Yes indeed, i have heard the stories of people praying and recovering either quicker or miraculously. I believe it is an illusion created by them, they subconciously trick themselves into thinking they are being protected by a higher power or are being helped by one. The body accepts this happy state of faith and works harder because of the mood/attitude of the person, they are confident and gleeful.
To me prayer is nothing but talking with air and doing aerobics with all those odd postions. True 'prayer' to me would be an intimate cerebral chat with you and your higher power(s), (s)he(it)(they) may not respond like the psychiatrist who listens to your childhood, but would be there listening. As a result of this illusion the body gets better, I do not believe a god(s) or spirit(s) affect the tangible universe because that would mean divine intervention, which would be a symptom of lack of total free will. And i do not believe that we are not totally on our own, totally free.

There is a weight of human experience that certainly indicates that there is something with prayer. It does seem to have an impact. I think this part is not really something that can be disputed.

Where the unknown comes into it is what is behind the effectiveness of prayer, God, Self or something else.

Personally I believe that we have the ability to impact our surroundings in ways far greater than we imagine. Prayer by default short circuits our own self limitations.

But that is just a theory. Nobody will ever know for sure.

Two words explain it all: placebo effect.

There certainly is a lot of logic to suggest that prayer could be a placebo effect, but people pray for other people & the placebo effect cannot impact them.

That's an extraordinary claim and demands strong evidence. Can you provide any links to impartial, repeated studies, Drew?

This is going to shock you guys. I agree that there is some sort of effect on the human spirit and/or body from prayer. Weather one is praying to the goddess of nature or Allah or jesus.

My conclusion is that when we release our problem to a higher power, we are essentially turning the problem over to it/them/he/she, putting it in the higher powers hands. Thus we take a huge amount of emotional strain, worry, anxiety and stress off of ourselves. Which in turn makes us feel better both emotionally and physically.

We are only beginning to understand how the human emotional state affects the body. We know it can make huge differences in healing and chemical balances. But we are just beginning to touch the tip of the iceberg.

Originally posted by Blob
Two words explain it all: placebo effect.

Agreed,

I believe that, along with the Religion itself, prayer brings a feeling of worth and self fulfillment. Which i guess is why whilst i dont believe in its God etc, I do feel for those that practice it it brings some positive effect to their life and for that its worthwhile.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Agreed,

I believe that, along with the Religion itself, prayer brings a feeling of worth and self fulfillment. Which i guess is why whilst i dont believe in its God etc, I do feel for those that practice it it brings some positive effect to their life and for that its worthwhile.
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Loki, I see that you tie prayer to religion.
Do you not think that it is possible to pray without religion being involved?
Prayer for positive action could be done without a "target" receiver, there-by opening oneself to the positive result.
To me, an athiest could pray in this respect.

For this reason I made no mention of god or religion in my original post. I wanted forum members of any or no religious beliefs to respond.

How would you handle prayer Loki, or would you not do it?

Originally posted by Blob
That's an extraordinary claim and demands strong evidence. Can you provide any links to impartial, repeated studies, Drew?
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Blob, I will take a moment to render a few personal experiences that are not documented scientifically, links, studies or provable other than the positive results that occured.

You do not know me personally, but people that know me acknowledge me as a truthful person.

Several years ago my mother, in the hospital, had lapsed into coma from an encreasing high temperature. The nurses and doctors had tried everything they knew, with no result.
Mom was hooked to an electronic thermometer that continuously read her body temperature.
I asked my sister, we were alone in the room with Mom, to take her hand and mine, which she did. I took Mom's other hand and started praying. Her temperature started droping at once until it was normal and she awoke, soon to be discharged.
Coincidence, I do not know. Only that it happened only at the exact moment I started praying.

My 6 year old grand-daughter was diagnosed with leukemia.
We sent her to three hospitals for second opinions.
All came to the original conclusion after tests.
She was scheduled for the painful bone morrow transplant on the next Monday.
I asked my wife to bring her over the Friday before to spend the night with us before she traveled over the week-end to the hospital for the proceedure.
That Friday night, after she went to sleep, I went into her room, sat down on the bed beside her and said a silent prayer for her immediate recovery.

Monday, when she went into the hospital, they took a blood count and her white blood cells were down to normal.
Surgery was postponed. Now a year later, she has no traces of the illness. No one other than my wife and myself know of the prayer to her that Friday night.
Coincidence, I do not know. All I know is that the doctors were, and still are, quite amazed with her recovery.

I could recount other events, but this is enough to understand, that when necessary, I will say a prayer in hopes of positive results, regardless of the lack of scientific proof involved.
I might suggest to others to try, for it is the only proceedure that I know of, that is completely without side-effects.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

I might suggest to others to try, for it is the only proceedure that I know of, that is completely without side-effects.

But is it addicting? :D - only to those who believe it was devine intervention.

Originally posted by Echo2
But is it addicting? :D - only to those who believe it was devine intervention.
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LOL Echo,

Speaking of devine intervention, I will take this opportunity to say to someone that might ask how I pray, when I have spoken so often against man-made religions.
As I have said, I pray through no religion or to any god.

I simply ask all the forces of good and natural order to come together and help me accomplish this task before me. Then I concentrate on the end result of what I hope to accomplish.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I simply ask all the forces of good and natural order to come together and help me accomplish this task before me. Then I concentrate on the end result of what I hope to accomplish.

I do the very same thing. And I am extremely adverse to religion. One does not need to believe a god to ask the universe/nature/force for help.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I would like to comment on this subject, and get the opinions of others.

During my lifetime I have seen what appeared to be the benefit of prayer.
It seemed not to matter, how or what you prayed to.
I have read where Doctors have said that people that have a faith in something, tend to recover at a more rapid rate than people that did not.

In my life I have prayed at various times, sometimes with what seemed like good results.
Even when I was a High Priest in Wica, with a coven of several Witches, we seemed to get good results praying to nature and all that is.

Positive prayer, to me, seems to stimulate positive things.
Whether it is a stimulation of the human body or a stimulation of a natural, universal process we do not understand, I do not know.
I just believe that it is o.k. and a natural thing to do.

I have said time and again that I do believe in God or a higher power but that I do not believe He/She/It will knowingly intercede on our behalf.

I do however believe in the power of prayer. It does not have to be Christian prayer or associated with any particular belief structure. To me it is about energy transfer and I do believe it is an ability to tap into our personal energy source and transfer said energy for good or for bad. A group will radiate more energy than a single person. But a single person alone can still do much.

There are some people I can just automatically connect with. From the time I was small, this has been so. The energy flows easily. Others just drain you. You can feel it physically. I think that same feeling can be directed. Some people are more receptive than others. I think children especially are open to the energy of others and can heal rapidly.

I too believe that it is okay and a positive thing to do. Even the Hippocratic Oath says "first, do no harm". Energy flows we can direct it.

Good observation Sal.
Also, I too believe that a group can accomplish more, especially if they are focused correctly.
Most things in this life require practice to become better.
I have been fortunate to have helped a few people change their lives.
Wish years ago that I could have had someone to help me, but I did not. I had to learn what I know the hard way.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

How would you handle prayer Loki, or would you not do it?

Id never do it, If i wanted something to happen I'd work to get it.

If i had my mum in a hospital and i truly wanted to help her, Id work my ass off working every moment of the day, raise a large amount of money and get the best experts in the field to work on her.

Sitting there clasping my hands saying "I hope my mum gets better" seems the most pointless thing to do

I believe its mostly a placebo effect. If you believe in something then you give it power and therfore can effect the real world. It's an illusionary power that can be manifested.

Sitting there clasping my hands saying "I hope my mum gets better" seems the most pointless thing to do
I think prayers a bit misleading here. prayer is connected to outside forces and religion. I suggest a more apropriate descrpition would be "positive outlook" "hope" or maybe even "faith".

I believe that having a positive outlook towards things can help a situation greatly. You dan't even have to take any time doing anything about it. If you just believe that she will get better then the likelyhood will increase (as to how much is simply impossible to know, it may be .000001% more or 50% more).

If i had my mum in a hospital and i truly wanted to help her, Id work my ass off working every moment of the day, raise a large amount of money and get the best experts in the field to work on her. This would fit the positive outlook in that you believe that she can still be saved. However placing all that on doctors or others may undermine such hope making it contingent on uncertain factors.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

This would fit the positive outlook in that you believe that she can still be saved. However placing all that on doctors or others may undermine such hope making it contingent on uncertain factors.

The alternative being me placing my hope in the hands of something i cant see, allowing its misguided direction to somehow reach the appropiate target (whomever or whatever that may be) so they can help my mum.

That is called Faith, and if i was able to place great amounts of Faith in some higher power then id be a Christian by now.

I place my "faith" in things tangible, like the exponential speed of increasing technology and the fields of nano-biology which have a far better chance of curing all mankinds diesease than any prayer, any faith or any God.

It will be a fucking sad for religion when the Docters find a cure for cancer and they say it was all because of God.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Blob, I will take a moment to render a few personal experiences that are not documented scientifically, links, studies or provable other than the positive results that occured. The problem with anecdotal accounts is that in a world of medical science and 6 billion people, most of whom pray, it would be highly remarkable if prayer didn't often precede recovery. But unless everyone is praying for war, famine, disease and disaster, we can only conclude that on balance prayer fails. If it didn't we would expect historic and low-technology cultures to be just as successful in terms of life-expectancy as high-technology ones. But they are not.

Originally posted by Blob
The problem with anecdotal accounts is that in a world of medical science and 6 billion people, most of whom pray, it would be highly remarkable if prayer didn't often precede recovery. But unless everyone is praying for war, famine, disease and disaster, we can only conclude that on balance prayer fails. If it didn't we would expect historic and low-technology cultures to be just as successful in terms of life-expectancy as high-technology ones. But they are not.
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I understand your viewpoint.

I believe that every thought is a silent prayer.
There is truely much misery and depression in the world.
I would say that the amount of time spent on thoughts of misery in the world, far outnumbers the amount of time spent on positive thoughts(prayers).
If positive thoughts do have a positive impact on objectives and negative thoughts do have a negative impact, you can see that the situations you mentioned would be heavily inclined to remain in the negative.

It seems to me that for every positive thinking person there are several that are wringing their hands in desperation.
Maybe misery does indeed, love company.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
The alternative being me placing my hope in the hands of something i cant see, allowing its misguided direction to somehow reach the appropiate target (whomever or whatever that may be) so they can help my mum.

That is called Faith, and if i was able to place great amounts of Faith in some higher power then id be a Christian by now.

I place my "faith" in things tangible, like the exponential speed of increasing technology and the fields of nano-biology which have a far better chance of curing all mankinds diesease than any prayer, any faith or any God.

It will be a fucking sad for religion when the Docters find a cure for cancer and they say it was all because of God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I do not understand why prayer and religion must be tied together in the minds of people.

I also, fail to understand why placing ones faith in science can not be supported with some type of prayer that is both free and easy.
To each his own, of course.

I believe, that man, in placing limitations upon himself, has a negative effect upon his expansion to his full mental capabilities as a species.
I do not believe that the unused percentage of our brain is just there to counter-balance our feet.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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If positive thoughts do have a positive impact on objectives and negative thoughts do have a negative impact, you can see that the situations you mentioned would be heavily inclined to remain in the negative.

I like that. I will have to think about that one some more. Nice!

Edited to ask a question...

Having said that, do you believe some people act as shock absorbers. What I mean is some people tend to draw others to them sometimes even complete strangers. Said stranger unloads their problems verbally and walks away never to have contact again. The shock absorber may be slightly drained in someways but feels they have learned something so their balance is okay and the other individual feels supported and connected for a bit. What do you think?

Dan! what a great thread!
and interesting replies.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Id never do it, If i wanted something to happen I'd work to get it.


Yes! luck and prayer have nothing to do with how well your life goes. YOU decide, YOU work for it!

If your mother is ill in the hospital you can offer her your support to her. That will help her, but work is involved, you must head out and get the money, doctors, or what it takes to fix the problem.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I like that. I will have to think about that one some more. Nice!

Edited to ask a question...

Having said that, do you believe some people act as shock absorbers. What I mean is some people tend to draw others to them sometimes even complete strangers. Said stranger unloads their problems verbally and walks away never to have contact again. The shock absorber may be slightly drained in someways but feels they have learned something so their balance is okay and the other individual feels supported and connected for a bit. What do you think?
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Sal, sometime ago, I noticed that some people pass thru my life, like ships in the night. Sometimes verbal communication is exchanged, sometimes only a smile.
I have asked people something along the lines of "how are you today" and received a glimpse into their immediate problems as a reply.
I deal with a lot of people Monday thru Friday. Sometimes, it is suprising at the depth of some conversations.
Before the conversation ends, certain key words or phrases have been exchanged that seem to be power words. Words that can make a change.
I never speak in a manner of condemnation or judgement of what I am told. I just seems that the right words come to me. Something the other person needs to hear at the time.

At the same time complete strangers have said something that I needed to hear at the time.

If one can drop their preconceived ideas of what life is all about and look at the happenings of their invironment(the world around them), I believe that hidden things are occuring on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Evakian

If your mother is ill in the hospital you can offer her your support to her. That will help her, but work is involved, you must head out and get the money, doctors, or what it takes to fix the problem. [/B]
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Yes, this is common sense.
And if it is not enough?

Originally posted by Ralph Saxton
Dan! what a great thread!
and interesting replies.
---------------------------------------------

Thanks Ralph, You reach some, some you do not.
But, the ammunition is there.

Originally posted by Evakian
Yes! luck and prayer have nothing to do with how well your life goes. YOU decide, YOU work for it!

If your mother is ill in the hospital you can offer her your support to her. That will help her, but work is involved, you must head out and get the money, doctors, or what it takes to fix the problem.

While that is your belief and I respect it as such, my personal belief is that luck and prayer have a tremendous impact upon people's lives. While I often believe that one creates one's own luck, I also believe that many times opportunities go unnoticed by some becausethey are so busy trying to "create their own".

One can plan all they like, sometimes circumstances just do not co-operate and the only thing one can do, is go with the flow.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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Sal, sometime ago, I noticed that some people pass thru my life, like ships in the night. Sometimes verbal communication is exchanged, sometimes only a smile.
I have asked people something along the lines of "how are you today" and received a glimpse into their immediate problems as a reply.
I deal with a lot of people Monday thru Friday. Sometimes, it is suprising at the depth of some conversations.

I guess I am still amazed after 48 years of interacting with people, the depth of revelation some people will share after only having met you moments before. Funny enough, there is always something immense that I can take away from the conversation even if it is just an amazement at the other's ability to cope with
overwhelming odds. This of course leads to hope. Hope that our strength/ability/love as human beings is always MORE than one could expect.

Sometimes it just leaves me with a feeling of awe about the human spirit and our ability to connect, then disconnect, yet have been altered somehow by a 20 minute conversation with a stranger.

Before the conversation ends, certain key words or phrases have been exchanged that seem to be power words. Words that can make a change.



Nicely put!If one can drop their preconceived ideas of what life is all about and look at the happenings of their invironment(the world around them), I believe that hidden things are occuring on a regular basis.

Kind of like a "gift" daily! :)

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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Yes, this is common sense.
And if it is not enough?

Then she dies, and this is where we are able to define those people who are mentally stable enough to accept that and those that cant.

The ones that cant start relying on things to tell them that she "isnt really dead" or that "she has gone to a better place" or that "she is dead but her spirit is all around us".

Also, stop telling me Religion and Prayer are seperate, I realise this already. However they have a number of things in common and thus the references.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokideviluk
[B]Then she dies, and this is where we are able to define those people who are mentally stable enough to accept that and those that cant.

The ones that cant start relying on things to tell them that she "isnt really dead" or that "she has gone to a better place" or that "she is dead but her spirit is all around us".
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Interesting to me, that you define mental stability by two opposite beliefs of which neither have been proven.
As far as I know science has no detection devices, yet, with the capability of settling this dispute.

Only when something has been proven or dis-proven scientifically can, I personally, come to a conclusion that the opposite belief shows mental instability.

I cannot even go with the notion, as proof, that so many believe this way or that way. Quite a few believe nothing continues after death, and millions believe that something does. Yet, where is the tangible proof of either view?

to me for the most part Dan, things that can neither be proven real or proven unreal tend to be considered unreal, save things like the lochness monster, Yeti and fire breathing dragons be considered real.

I really appreciate everyone that has given a response to this thread. I wanted the information that I have received.

I also received a certain amount of information from those that deliberately avoided this topic.

Thanks again, to everyone.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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I understand your viewpoint.

I believe that every thought is a silent prayer.
There is truely much misery and depression in the world.
I would say that the amount of time spent on thoughts of misery in the world, far outnumbers the amount of time spent on positive thoughts(prayers).
If positive thoughts do have a positive impact on objectives and negative thoughts do have a negative impact, you can see that the situations you mentioned would be heavily inclined to remain in the negative. Sorry to snap at your heels on this but...

Firstly you are reversing the cause and effect of thought and events compared to my way of thinking.

Secondly, I don't see how your conception adds up. In the loose sense of prayers being mere thoughts that we sometimes actively focus, then I pray too. I may say to the traffic "oh come on" or await an important work-related funding decision with my mental fingers-crossed. But it just doesn't work. The traffic doesn't budge and the decision is all too often a no. I'm an optimistic person by disposition but whether something turns out well or not has no correleation to whether I have 'prayed'. You also fail to explain why misery is concentrated amongst certain humans more than others - I'm assuming you do not think African peasants should simply cheer up.

Originally posted by Blob
Sorry to snap at your heels on this but...

Firstly you are reversing the cause and effect of thought and events compared to my way of thinking.
--------------------------------------------------
I do not see the reversal you speak of. I believe positive thoughts influence positive effects and negative thoughts influence negative effects.


(Quote.)
Secondly, I don't see how your conception adds up. In the loose sense of prayers being mere thoughts that we sometimes actively focus, then I pray too. I may say to the traffic "oh come on" or await an important work-related funding decision with my mental fingers-crossed. But it just doesn't work. The traffic doesn't budge and the decision is all too often a no. I'm an optimistic person by disposition but whether something turns out well or not has no correleation to whether I have 'prayed'. You also fail to explain why misery is concentrated amongst certain humans more than others - I'm assuming you do not think African peasants should simply cheer up.
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You speak of individual events occuring of which you may be disappointed.
Now consider your overall goals that you desire.
We have no way of knowing how individual events effect our long term goals as they occur.
We tend to concentrate more often on long term goals than we do spacific short term goals. This seems to give them (long term goals) more priority.
The out come of the short term goal may or may not give direction to the long term goal. The event that you wish to occur now may actually take you farther from the long term goal, without you realizing it at the time.
I have desired things (that I did not obtain) that as time passed I realized would have taken me from the place in life that I ultimately attained.
In your example of the traffic holding you up.
Let us say that you received notice that by reaching another intersection at a particular time you would be in an accident.
Would you still be in such a hurry for the traffic to come on, so that you could make the appointment?

You mentioned African peasants as an example.
I believe that negative thoughts are like electrical impulses, they seek the path of less resistance, and like water, seek the lowest level.

Never feel that you are snapping at my heals. I appreciate the interest, it helps to bring out points someone may be interested in. As we have exchange here, many will read our words.

To get an idea of how many thoughts, both positive and negative, pass thru our mind each day try this exercise.
Simply go somewhere private and quiet. Try to clear your mind until no thoughts are in your mind. Try to picture a blank screen in your mind with no thoughts.
You will probably be suprised at the short time you can do this.
Suddenly, you catch yourself thinking of something.
Yet, this point of thinking nothing is where you can accomplish the most.
Takes a lot of practice.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Let us say that you received notice that by reaching another intersection at a particular time you would be in an accident.
Would you still be in such a hurry for the traffic to come on, so that you could make the appointment?

That is the way I look at things when I am late. I have a phobia about being late. I am always early. Sometimes though, regardless of planning, things happen to change our time course. I always believe all things work together and therefore whatever has delayed me is probably a benefit rather than a deficit.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
To get an idea of how many thoughts, both positive and negative, pass thru our mind each day try this exercise.
Simply go somewhere private and quiet. Try to clear your mind until no thoughts are in your mind. Try to picture a blank screen in your mind with no thoughts.
You will probably be suprised at the short time you can do this.
Suddenly, you catch yourself thinking of something.
Yet, this point of thinking nothing is where you can accomplish the most.
Takes a lot of practice.

Thats called Meditation? and doesnt prove anything related to whether prayer helps or not..

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Thats called Meditation? and doesnt prove anything related to whether prayer helps or not..
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Never said it did!

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
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You speak of individual events occuring of which you may be disappointed.
Now consider your overall goals that you desire.
We have no way of knowing how individual events effect our long term goals as they occur.
We tend to concentrate more often on long term goals than we do spacific short term goals. This seems to give them (long term goals) more priority.
The out come of the short term goal may or may not give direction to the long term goal. The event that you wish to occur now may actually take you farther from the long term goal, without you realizing it at the time.
I have desired things (that I did not obtain) that as time passed I realized would have taken me from the place in life that I ultimately attained.But you began this exchange by stating a clear, single, identifyable case of a prayer being answered. I have basically turned round and said "it doesn't generalise and anyway is statistically predictable". Now you are arguing that such single clear cases are not general. Although I cannot prove you wrong it feels very much as though your theory can be rationalised to fit any data. This why I cannot entertain such a concept nor see how it could be useful to do so.
In your example of the traffic holding you up.
Let us say that you received notice that by reaching another intersection at a particular time you would be in an accident.
Would you still be in such a hurry for the traffic to come on, so that you could make the appointment?Yes - but then I am guilty of counting the hits and forgetting the misses. Having a comfortable professional life I never have to wait to long for something pleasant to happen. If I began to construct complicated stories to explain how "oh come on traffic" is answered I will surely be successful every time.
You mentioned African peasants as an example.
I believe that negative thoughts are like electrical impulses, they seek the path of less resistance, and like water, seek the lowest level. Then it's a feedback circle of negative thoughts and negative events. Naturally I still consdier the cause and effect differently to you.


Maybe I can try to show there is some possible convergence of our opions. You are not suggesting I give up my funding applications and only pray; neither do I deny that positive thinking never has positive effects. There is clearly an interplay of thought-event going on. We merely differ in how much emphasis and efficacy we place on each, perhaps.

Originally posted by Blob
Maybe I can try to show there is some possible convergence of our opions. You are not suggesting I give up my funding applications and only pray; neither do I deny that positive thinking never has positive effects. There is clearly an interplay of thought-event going on. We merely differ in how much emphasis and efficacy we place on each, perhaps. [/B]
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Yes Blob, I would never expect anyone to stop the common sense practices of day to day life.
I have merely laid these suggestions on the table, to offer, as a slight edge in the game of life.
Call it a sharing of personal experiences that have helped me to attain, what I consider, about as happy a life as a human can enjoy. You or I may be content. Many people are not.
Maybe our exchange has brought out points, on both sides, that will help someone reading.
Everything I have shared is meant in a positive way. ;)

Dan, If I was sick and had only two choices...#1) Put my "faith" in a trained competent doctor who has studied both the cause and treatment for my disorder or #2) put my "faith" in a supernatural being that no two people can agree on it's attributes and has never been proven to exist, I would choose the former over the latter every time. I think most people would do the same. In fact, the state often forces treatment on children whose parents rely on "The Lord" for a cure thus refusing proven medical treatment.

Whilst i still think its total bullshit,

I think what Dan is saying is that he would happily accept the docters surgery etc, but he would pray the surgery went well and would pray for a swift recovery.

The thing that pisses me off, is that when it doesnt work people go "O well God obviously didnt feel i deserved it" which is completely anal to me. If youve done nothing wrong and have been a devouted christian then really, every one of your prayers should be answered providing it doesnt breech the bible.

Loki, you have missed the point some of us don't pray to "the God," and then get mad if he doesn't answer. We just pray to the natural order of things and hope that good energy is there to help, sometimes it is not. I believe that positive energy will help, ex; you find out you have cancer and just except the doc's 6mths left to live answer. This brings you down and everyone around you so you die in 5 mths. Now lets say you won't except the idea of dying in 6mths, you believe in something, you will have a better chance of getting well{not 100% but better then just saying"oh well its over"}.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Simply go somewhere private and quiet. Try to clear your mind until no thoughts are in your mind. Try to picture a blank screen in your mind with no thoughts

Bob Dylan{sp} came to mind when I read the blank screen part :D :D

Originally posted by mad dog
Now lets say you won't except the idea of dying in 6mths, you believe in something, you will have a better chance of getting well{not 100% but better then just saying"oh well its over"}.

This is postive thinking, which i do every now and then and yes it works. It most likely messes with the chemical balances etc and ive got no problem with that.

Since you keep telling me Ive missed the point and its becomming irratating, Can I at least formulate that from your previous posts you....

Accept personal prayer (postive thinking in a physical form) can change or empower you.

Im just not sure if you truly believe that your prayers can influence someone else.

Ok, not to throw a wrench into things here but I do not believe in the power of positive thinking. I think that is an energy drain.

Don't mean to be an asshole here but to me prayer and positive thinking are worlds and worlds apart.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
This is postive thinking, which i do every now and then and yes it works. It most likely messes with the chemical balances etc and ive got no problem with that.

so in away it is like prayer, take a group of folks with positive thoughts, things seem to go better. Now take a group of people with negativity things seem to fall apart.

Since you keep telling me Ive missed the point and its becomming irratating, Can I at least formulate that from your previous posts you....

On the other thread I said you missed my point because I didn't explain myself sorry to have irratated you.

Accept personal prayer (postive thinking in a physical form) can change or empower you.

Im just not sure if you truly believe that your prayers can influence someone else.

If I am negative around another I can influence them, ex; I go visit someone in the hospital and they are christian and feel very strong about Jesus helping them. I sit by there bed and tell them they're nutz and they have no proof about Jesus and just keep putting down their belief. I bring them down so much that they feel like sh** and possibly even get worse. Now reverse everything and have me say well it's good that you believe in something and I will pray with you, I bet it would help???

I quess I feel that a prayer is the postive energy that we can put off, either alone or as a group.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
[B]Ok, not to throw a wrench into things here but I do not believe in the power of positive thinking. I think that is an energy drain.

why?

Don't mean to be an asshole here but to me prayer and positive thinking are worlds and worlds apart.

I don't think you are anywhere near being an a-hole. If I correctly remember you are Christian? If yes then your idea of prayer would be different then mine somewhat. I do believe in the other side{angle souls spirits whatever} and I do believe they can help with prayer, but prayer would still have to be a possitive or negative type of energy???

Originally posted by mad dog
so in away it is like prayer, take a group of folks with positive thoughts, things seem to go better. Now take a group of people with negativity things seem to fall apart.

I dont actually know what your aiming at that isnt already obvious. A group of postive people will hit the same pitfalls the Negative group will however the postive people will push past it and move on. This isnt anything to do with some unseen force, or global energy we all tap into that you seem to think exists.

Originally posted by mad dog
[B]If I am negative around another I can influence them, ex; I go visit someone in the hospital and they are christian and feel very strong about Jesus helping them. I sit by there bed and tell them they're nutz and they have no proof about Jesus and just keep putting down their belief. I bring them down so much that they feel like sh** and possibly even get worse. Now reverse everything and have me say well it's good that you believe in something and I will pray with you, I bet it would help???[B]


I dont disagree with that, but I also dont see how that is in anyway spiritual, related to some higher power, Gaia or whatever you want to call it.

You say horrible things to someone they will feel bad, you say postive things to someone they will feel good. Ive got no disagreement with this?

What i utterly disagree with is that any kind of personal postive thought can affect someone in another room, another town, another country etc. Or that a thousand people all praying for something will have any effect at all towards it.

Loki, alot of doctors will admit that folks that believe in God higher power or something have a better shot at recovering {usually faster}. I believe in an unseen force but it is not A Loving God, it is just a higher power. When I have "an unanswered prayer" I do not ask why I just figure I don't see the whole picture or maybe my frame of mind was not right. I also don't feel negative energy will help. As you can tell this is hard for me to explain. I believe in nature and what I have found to be true, at one time I thought I had a 6th sense. I quess if you don't want to believe in something then it won't happen. I still don't know what man made religion is even close to the 1 true 1 if any, but I do believe in the power of nature.

Originally posted by mad dog
Loki, alot of doctors will admit that folks that believe in God higher power or something have a better shot at recovering {usually faster

Postive thinking brought about by believing in God.

Fair enough that you believe in some unknown force controlling things. I obviously dont and through the field of nanotechnology i think we are going to see some important facts that may prove you or me right.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
I dont disagree with that, but I also dont see how that is in anyway spiritual, related to some higher power, Gaia or whatever you want to call it.

you may be correct maybe it is just the positive power between two folks that are with each other.


What i utterly disagree with is that any kind of personal postive thought can affect someone in another room, another town, another country etc. Or that a thousand people all praying for something will have any effect at all towards it.

Once again you very well could be correct, but what would it hurt to try? Like I said I feel alot of prayers are not answered for unknown reasons but what if even just a couple are? I hardly ever pray for something that is not in front of me. I never pray for materialistic things.

Loki, just except Jesus into your heart and he'll show you the way :D :D sorry I couldn't help myself I know how much you like being pushed into Christianism.

Not to be a smartass but...I think I will roll the dice thirty times and pray that I get at least one seven.

Originally posted by mad dog
why?



I don't think you are anywhere near being an a-hole. If I correctly remember you are Christian? If yes then your idea of prayer would be different then mine somewhat. I do believe in the other side{angle souls spirits whatever} and I do believe they can help with prayer, but prayer would still have to be a possitive or negative type of energy???

The reason I think it is an energy drain is because people tell others things like, think positively and you can beat your cancer. Or ask God and he will heal you. So if they do not see themselves getting better they blame themselves for not thinking positive in the right way, or for not having enough faith. When in fact they may have more faith or more positive thoughts than some other who receives spontaneous remission.

There are all these self-help books out there such as "The Power of Positive Thinking" but I think that stuff is misleading.

Positive thinking is a lifestyle. It is a whole way of life. A philosophy built on reflection and honesty with self. It is not about trying to view something in the best light when one does not actually feel that way.

If one feels negatively about something to just say "hmm I think I will view this in a positive way instead" will not work. One must find the positive in the situation and use it to work for you.

Unlike prayer which is more of an appeal to outward forces. A calling of good energy and channeling in a specific direction.

Hope I explained that clearly enough for you to get an idea of my view of the separateness of prayer and positive thought.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
The reason I think it is an energy drain is because people tell others things like, think positively and you can beat your cancer. Or ask God and he will heal you. So if they do not see themselves getting better they blame themselves for not thinking positive in the right way, or for not having enough faith. When in fact they may have more faith or more positive thoughts than some other who receives spontaneous remission.

I agree, positive thoughts don't allways equal positive energy. Like I said before sometimes things happen for a reason that we do not understand. The universe does not work for humans we are just a zit on its arse.

There are all these self-help books out there such as "The Power of Positive Thinking" but I think that stuff is misleading.

agree, there is allways someone trying to sell something and make a buck.

Positive thinking is a lifestyle. It is a whole way of life. A philosophy built on reflection and honesty with self. It is not about trying to view something in the best light when one does not actually feel that way.

You are correct, if I broke my leg I would not laugh about the broken leg but I might be able to say now I can stay off my feet for a few days and get pampered :)

If one feels negatively about something to just say "hmm I think I will view this in a positive way instead" will not work. One must find the positive in the situation and use it to work for you.

So positive thought would still be better then just saying well I broke my leg maybe I should just shoot myself{negative or 0 energy}. When I use the term negative I mean it as being nothing, not giving a sh**. I don't mean negative to be bad thought, more of the heck with everything. Negative= 0 positive = +. So in away even a bad thoguht could be fired by postive energy. What a person would be doing is pulling the power to them for their use. Hope this makes sense??????????

Unlike prayer which is more of an appeal to outward forces. A calling of good energy and channeling in a specific direction.

I think this is where I confused you, good energy bad energy, it would still need the positive to work. Kind of like a motor, 1 motor is a death ray the other is for making candy, 1 is good 1 is bad but they both need the battery to work.

Hope I explained that clearly enough for you to get an idea of my view of the separateness of prayer and positive thought.

I think we are on the same note I just have a bad way of explaining it. I think for prayer we need the positive energy we can have the positive thought all we want but with out the energy we have nothing.

Originally posted by mad dog
I agree, positive thoughts don't allways equal positive energy. Like I said before sometimes things happen for a reason that we do not understand. The universe does not work for humans we are just a zit on its arse.

I like your take on that mad dog. It seems many people who do not believe in a higher power think that when people appeal to said higher power for what ever reason that a non response is grounds for unbelief...! Very nice!

I think we are on the same note I just have a bad way of explaining it. I think for prayer we need the positive energy we can have the positive thought all we want but with out the energy we have nothing.

Yeah I think we are on the same page too. I don't think you explained it in a bad way...I just needed further clarification about your process... now I have it...thanks!

Originally posted by ~Sal~
It seems many people who do not believe in a higher power think that when people appeal to said higher power for what ever reason that a non response is grounds for unbelief...! Very nice!

Its about as stupid as having one of your prayers come to as grounds for belief.

I do believe in the power of prayer to Jesus in heaven-I noticed most here don't associate prayer w/ religion & each person was given a free will. I thank God for heaven for hearing & answering my prayers (maybe not the answer I wanted).
You all must realize there is no creation with out a Creator????

Originally posted by meme
I do believe in the power of prayer to Jesus in heaven-I noticed most here don't associate prayer w/ religion & each person was given a free will. I thank God for heaven for hearing & answering my prayers (maybe not the answer I wanted).
You all must realize there is no creation with out a Creator????
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes meme, many have different beliefs, and that is just fine with me. Welcome to allforums.

Welcome meme!

You're assuming that everything was created in order to conclude there must be a creator. Therefore you prove nothing because your conclusion and assumption are indistinguishable.

Originally posted by meme
I do believe in the power of prayer to Jesus in heaven-I noticed most here don't associate prayer w/ religion & each person was given a free will. I thank God for heaven for hearing & answering my prayers (maybe not the answer I wanted).

Yeh im glad God answered all your prayers. Obviously you werent praying for World Peace.

Curiously what do you pray for?


Originally posted by meme
You all must realize there is no creation with out a Creator????

Yes, and you must realise theres no chicken without an egg.... understand?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Yeh im glad God answered all your prayers. Obviously you werent praying for World Peace.

Curiously what do you pray for?




Yes, and you must realise theres no chicken without an egg.... understand?
to pray for world peace would be foolish- I don't pray for the world because I am in the world not of it. The chicken & egg analogy excellent use of it - I understand ,do you?

to that I'll add it is because people refuse to believe the truth that the road to heaven will be narrow.

Originally posted by meme
to pray for world peace would be foolish- I don't pray for the world because I am in the world not of it.

Ok...

Then what about praying for "the people" of this worlds peace? If god answers all your prayers then I figure one little prayer to save a billion peoples suffering should be a priority for you?


Originally posted by meme
The chicken & egg analogy excellent use of it - I understand ,do you?

Well as a general rule, I tend to understand my own written metaphors. It means that your entire argument is everything here is too complex to be created by random so it must have an intellegent designer.

By that logic something sooo complex as the intellegent designer must have had an intellegent designer to design him and so on and so forth.

I differ from you because I'm like, I CAN NOT know if there is or isnt an intellegent designer for certain. Because of that I live my life by facts and proof, where as you live yours by faith.

I've learnt more about religion, not believeing in it, than i think most people who do.

Originally posted by meme
to that I'll add it is because people refuse to believe the truth that the road to heaven will be narrow.

Whats truth to you? Blind faith? A book that contradicts known science?

Your statement is full to the brim of total ignorance.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Ok...

Then what about praying for "the people" of this worlds peace? If god answers all your prayers then I figure one little prayer to save a billion peoples suffering should be a priority for you?


I do pray for the people in the world-but there will be no "peace" until Christ returns & no I'm not gonna fly away-Rev. says they shall reign on the earth-after the return of Christ there will be peace here & I want to be here on earth. I can believe in something I can't see-that's what faith is by definition.

On the chicken and egg subject, i will step in to assist meme here for a quick bit.

Everything in this universe has an explanation, i view science as the untangling of the mysteries and explaining the phenomena, but everything in this universe is physical and was created and is bound by time, materials, etc. Beginnings and ends apply to things in the physical universe. As for the chicken and egg situation involving God-He is not a physical being bound by anything in this universe, as he does not exist here, time constraints and material constraints are not His concern or problem. Since He is not physical there is no time constraints, and a part of time is a beginning and an end. But that means He does not have a beginnning or an end, that is physical and He is not so implying on "God's creation" makes no sense.

I tend to view everything as things that involve the truths of science and beauties of faith.

And sorry to say this Loki, i like you and all but, i think you are being ignorant of the Bible's meaning and purpose while saying it is a book full of ignorance. The Bible is not a historical text or scientific handbook, it is full of theological and moral concerns, and thats pretty much it. It doesn't have scientific explanations because that is not the purpose (and also they did not have the ability to discover things as we do now, not that the Bible being written now would still be any different).

I would just like you to take appreciate what i am doing here and take my views into consideration, as i do yours, as yours also possess their validity.

Originally posted by Evakian
As for the chicken and egg situation involving God-He is not a physical being bound by anything in this universe, as he does not exist here, time constraints and material constraints are not His concern or problem. Since He is not physical there is no time constraints, and a part of time is a beginning and an end. But that means He does not have a beginnning or an end, that is physical and He is not so implying on "God's creation" makes no sense.

and you know all of this, how?

Originally posted by Evakian
I tend to view everything as things that involve the truths of science and beauties of faith.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Evakian
And sorry to say this Loki, i like you and all but, i think you are being ignorant of the Bible's meaning and purpose while saying it is a book full of ignorance. The Bible is not a historical text or scientific handbook, it is full of theological and moral concerns, and thats pretty much it. It doesn't have scientific explanations because that is not the purpose (and also they did not have the ability to discover things as we do now, not that the Bible being written now would still be any different).

I said "A book that contradicts known science" (which it pretty clearly does), I didnt say the Bible is an Ignorant book.

Originally posted by Evakian
I would just like you to take appreciate what i am doing here and take my views into consideration, as i do yours, as yours also possess their validity.

Were going to clash heads a whole lot if you come to the rescue of every stray christian hoping to express their niave knowledge of God on to us. But I do respect you, your views and your intellegent approach to debate so Im not personally against you, Im simply debating as a way to learn. I wont be nearly as intellegently written as Blob, or as aggressively ignorant as Echo, but for the time being its somewhere in the middle.

He is not a physical being bound by anything in this universe, as he does not exist here, time constraints and material constraints are not His concern or problem. Since He is not physical there is no time constraints, and a part of time is a beginning and an end. But that means He does not have a beginnning or an end, that is physical and He is not so implying on "God's creation" makes no sense. God's not this and god's not that - so what is god? Your description simply makes no sense.

To illustrate my point consider the following description of a table:
A table is not a game of football. It is not constrained by a start whistle and final whistle. There is no score, no game, and no final result. To talk of a table's "league position" makes no sense.

That hardly clarifies what a table is, does it?

Just thought I would drop this fact here:

Saw where Harvard is going to pay a group 1 million dollars a year, for a few years, to debate evolution,etc., and come up with the closest idea as to how humanity got its beginning.

Damn, what a gravy job! We do it for nothing. ;)

lol.

Quite right - for the price of a few beers we could have all that sorted in a couple of hours! :D

Originally posted by Blob
lol.

Quite right - for the price of a few beers we could have all that sorted in a couple of hours! :D

no waaaaaay, I want wine or cognac....!!!

Originally posted by Blob
lol.

Quite right - for the price of a few beers we could have all that sorted in a couple of hours! :D

lol Stella :) would mean at least one fight.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk

I said "A book that contradicts known science" (which it pretty clearly does), I didnt say the Bible is an Ignorant book.

Were going to clash heads a whole lot if you come to the rescue of every stray christian hoping to express their niave knowledge of God on to us. But I do respect you, your views and your intellegent approach to debate so Im not personally against you, Im simply debating as a way to learn. I wont be nearly as intellegently written as Blob, or as aggressively ignorant as Echo, but for the time being its somewhere in the middle.

I said "A book that contradicts known science" (which it pretty clearly does), I didnt say the Bible is an Ignorant book.-Loki

I wasn't directly quoting you there, just getting across a point

Were going to clash heads a whole lot if you come to the rescue of every stray christian hoping to express their niave knowledge of God on to us- Loki

Yea, you see, i am hated by protestant christians for my approach and hated by scientific atheists for my approach. It sucks when i am trying to help them and they slap my hand away, most are too foolhardy to accept my approach because i believe they are blind of their own religion's beauty and truths.

But I do respect you, your views and your intellegent approach to debate so Im not personally against you- Loki

Thanks, that means alot seeing as how i am seemingly alone on such issues. For someone to accept validity in my statements means something to me.

and you know all of this, how?- Loki

It is explained to me through the texts of ancient faiths and my own personal stances

I wont be nearly as intellegently written as Blob, or as aggressively ignorant as Echo- Loki

True, but i realize they may take offense to this but Blob makes a poor stand for his opinion even though he provides an explanation and echo provides good ammo for her side but never gets past ideology, thus forgetting reasonability. Please don't kill me :).

As for Dan's interjection, i think that is terrible. Heck i'm going to march up to Harvard and apply for a spot on that panel.
As for Blob's statement, reread my post. Did i express what God is in that? Nope, nor did i try to. I meant to explain that God having no creation himself is a logical argument as He is not physical and not bound by time in the physical world. Your discussion uses my words (or similar ones) for effect, but you related that to try and explain what a table is, and my argument was not what God is.

Anyway, is this thread over or do you guys still have things to say about prayer? which i assume Dan posted this for:cool:

Evakian
It sucks when i am trying to help them and they slap my hand away,Ah loki, if only you and I had the modesty to stop thinking and simply learn from these christians superior wisdom!
Evakian
As for Blob's statement, reread my post. Did i express what God is in that? Nope, nor did i try to. I meant to explain that God having no creation himself is a logical argument as He is not physical and not bound by time in the physical world. Your discussion uses my words (or similar ones) for effect, but you related that to try and explain what a table is, and my argument was not what God is. Oh yes it was! If you recall the thread went like this:

meme claimed that which exists is created and so has a creator
loki pointed out that by that reasoning god has a creator
you claimed god is not created because he is such-and-such
i pointed out your such-and-such made no sense and says nothing

Blob makes a poor stand for his opinion even though he provides an explanationThat's not what you said in a rather compementary pm you sent me. Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by Blob
Ah loki, if only you and I had the modesty to stop thinking and simply learn from these christians superior wisdom!
Oh yes it was! If you recall the thread went like this:

meme claimed that which exists is created and so has a creator
loki pointed out that by that reasoning god has a creator
you claimed god is not created because he is such-and-such
i pointed out your such-and-such made no sense and says nothing

That's not what you said in a rather compementary pm you sent me. Care to elaborate?

1. I was not referring to you and Loki, but the general population of Christians
2. And once again, no, your statement talking about how using my words applied to how a table is made are completely wrong, that was a poorly made case against me because it had no relevence to what i said earlier.
3. No one has any more thoughts on prayer?

1. Fair enough and apologies
2. I was demonstrating that your wording made no sense whatsoever by using an analogy. It is relevant because it shows your rebuttal of loki's point was utterly meaningless when put under the microscope.
3. No.