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ConfusedYouth
02-04-2002, 10:04 PM
Flags Are OK, Protest Signs Are Not

You've probably seen American flags or "United We Stand" signs adorning the nation's overpasses.

When two organic farmers in California, Amy Courtney and Cassandra Brown, saw the flags over the Granite Creek Road overpass in Scotts Valley, they decided to put up a symbol of their own in late November. According to the publication Metro Santa Cruz, they "hung a homemade banner--reading 'At What Cost?!' and featuring a hand-drawn skeleton."

But as the paper noted, "Their freedom of expression didn't last long. Within ten minutes, an officer from the Scotts Valley Police Department arrived and removed their banner, while leaving the neighboring American flag and a 'SC loves NY' sign).

The Scotts Valley police chief, Tom Bush, said the sign was taken down because someone had complained that "it was loosely fastened" and "didn't want it to fall on northbound traffic below."

According to the paper, the police chief also said that the state transportation department "has indicated that if an American flag is posted on an overpass, they'll leave it in place. And only American flags."

Then our political leaders came on television, and I was horrified and sickened again. They spoke of retaliation, of vengeance, of punishment. We are at war they said. And I thought: they have learned nothing, absolutely nothing, from the history of the twentieth century, from a hundred years of retaliation, vengeance, war, a hundred years of terrorism and counter-terrorism, of violence met with violence in an unending cycle of stupidity.

We can all feel a terrible anger at whoever, in their insane idea that this would help their cause, killed thousands of innocent people. But what do we do with that anger? Do we react with panic, strike out violently and blindly just to show how tough we are? "We shall make no distinction", the President proclaimed, between terrorists and countries that harbor terrorists". Will we now bomb Afghanistan, and inevitably kill innocent people, because it is in the nature of bombing to be indiscriminate, to "make no distinction"? Will we then be committing terrorism in order to "send a message" to terrorists?

We have done that before. It is the old way of thinking, the old way of acting. It has never worked. Reagan bombed Libya, and Bush made war on Iraq, and Clinton bombed Afghanistan and also a pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, to "send a message" to terrorists. And then comes this horror in New York and Washington. Isn't it clear by now that sending a message to terrorists through violence doesn't work, only leads to more terrorism?

Haven't we learned anything from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Car bombs planted by Palestinians bring air attacks and tanks by the Israeli government. That has been going on for years. It doesn't work. And innocent people die on both sides.

Yes, it is an old way of thinking, and we need new ways. We need to think about the resentment all over the world felt by people who have been the victims of American military action. In Vietnam, where we carried out terrorizing bombing attacks, using napalm and cluster bombs,on peasant villages. In Latin America, where we supported dictators and death squads in Chile and El Salvador and other countries. In Iraq, where a million people have died as a result of our economic sanctions, And, perhaps most important for understanding the current situation, in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza, where a million and more Palestinians live under a cruel military occupation, while our government supplies Israel with high-tech weapons.

We need to imagine that the awful scenes of death and suffering we are now witnessing on our television screens have been going on in other parts of the world for a long time, and only now can we begin to know what people have gone through, often as a result of our policies. We need to understand how some of those people will go beyond quiet anger to acts of terrorism.

We need new ways of thinking. A $300 billion dollar military budget has not given us security. Military bases all over the world, our warships on every ocean, have not given us security. Land mines, a "missile defense shield", will not give us security. We need to rethink our position in the world. We need to stop sending weapons to countries that oppress other people or their own people. We need to decide that we will not go to war, whatever reason is conjured up by the politicians or the media, because war in our time is always indiscriminate, a war against innocents, a war against children. War is terrorism, magnified a hundred times.

Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns, planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed decent wages and a clean environment for all. We can not be secure by limiting our liberties, as some of our political leaders are demanding , but only by expanding them. .

We should take our example not from our military and political leaders shouting "retaliate" and "war" but from the doctors and nurses and medical students and firemen and policemen who have been saving lives in the midst of mayhem, whose first thoughts are not violence, but healing, not vengeance but compassion.

sorry for the long post but this is how i fill about war and I took these two post by other writers because they hold the same opinions I do they just express them selves better then I could thanks to howard zinn and -- Matthew Rothschild for the material.

TheComputerGuy
02-05-2002, 04:59 AM
Alright I agree, War is bad, and do everything to not use it. Let me tell a brief story or two....

MY nephew is at Preschool, a little boy comes up to him and kisses him. My nephew says eww...and runs away. The boy comes up again and my nephew hit the boy after he kissed him a second time.

Now both are two young to realise what they are doing. But but it has been a week since the boy has tried to kiss him yet.

Two wrongs never make a right, but if we let someone hit us, and not defend us, we will continued to be hit.

Innocent people will die. and I dislike that, but their frame of mind and way of thinking is somewhat different than our. They also hold life differently, most being of the Islam faith, believe it is an honor to die for Ali.

Just my thoughts
Chris

P.S. ConfusedYouth, where are you located, which part of NC?

ConfusedYouth
02-05-2002, 02:02 PM
Like I said in my first post that we have bombed these contries before and we still have not learned because terroist and kept on and like I also said if we gave then aid for schools, to fix there goverment etc. than we would solve this problem of hate

I am from fayettnam aka fayettville

TheComputerGuy
02-05-2002, 04:09 PM
For as long as there are two people on the earth, they shall be hate, envy, greed.

There will always be terrorism. But to not do something, on behalf of the attacks Bush would look like a bad president, and many angered people wouldbe against him.

VBallAngel4377
02-05-2002, 04:42 PM
confused youth, in ur first post, u mentioned free health care and guaranteed education and housing for all. i agree w/the education part, but the rest of it sounds a lot like communism. if everyone has a place to go home to, then y bother working? what motivation to excell is there for those ppl? we saw how it killed other countries, y bring it here?
and also, r u a pacifist? i think war is not good, but i also think there r times when it is necessary. terrorism has been around for like ever. this is the first major major campaign against it (that i can remember) and i think it is duly justified.
i dunno, i kno that communism is wrong and is horrible for the country, but i'm not really sure about the war issue. i kno there r times when it is necessary, but beyond that i'm not real sure about it.

JWB
02-05-2002, 06:11 PM
Excuse me!! They attack us and we're suppose to give them aid? We are already the largest supply of humanitarian aid to that ████ box known as a country. You think those crazy people who think all Americans must die will change their mind if we put the people in school that they force to leave; provide shelter to those whose houses they burn! Binladen had millions of dollars, he can affoard a education, and could care less about everyone else! They haven't learned a lesson, yet, a few missiles Bill Clinton sent didn't do anything but make them think we were cowards! Now they need a real ███ whooping.

TheComputerGuy
02-05-2002, 06:46 PM
Michal, excellent point, why strive to succeed if it will all be handed to you? Why try to get a passing grade when you know you will be given the A?

Communism is flatly wrong. We do not need a national health care system as this will lead to other things. I personally feel abolish the public school system as we know it. I say offer the school vouchers and reward schools that compete to do the best.

This would make teachers try to be better teachers. While NC is 49th out of the 50 states, we could be better, and when teachers could offer better teachings, for less money as it is proven in todays private schools. I am for equal education, but why not better education.

I personally feel that CHS, for which I attend, in one word SUCKS. Not all teachers are bad, but I just think that the school has led me to a disappoinment after so many of the staff, and administration has let me down. This is starting to get onto another topic, I will start a new thread about it.

ConfusedYouth
02-05-2002, 07:10 PM
socialism works look at china they are very productive nation they have probably one of the best school systems in the entire world a very decent life expectancy so to say communism is wrong is not 100% correct. Also giving aid to other countrys for better schools and ecomonic systems have worked before look at japan they are one of the top trading countrys in the world.

JWB
02-06-2002, 06:48 AM
Experts agree that China and Japan will very likely reform themselves after a long span of time.. Japan especially has very high customs and values that are important to most of their society.. E.g. they have honor (suposibly) anyways, in a country where one of the main battles is to become rich the values might not be the same.. Many countries would care less about valuing family traditions and take the money provided by the government.. the point anyways: freedom is one of our strongest values, socialism takes that away.. No one can tell me I wouldn't / they wouldn't work harder knowing they would directly gain from it.

VBallAngel4377
02-06-2002, 01:55 PM
i'm lookin at china and seeing how they value sons more than daughters, i'm seeing how they're only allowed to have, what is it, 2 kids in a family? what kind of place is that? i would never, ever want to live in china just for the heck of it. if i was called to be a missionary there, that would be different, but i don't think they'll ever be a day when i'll just up and "oh, i wanna live in china bc i think i'd enjoy my life so much". no.
chris, i see what ur sayin about our school system, and CHS does suck, but johnston county schools r soooo much better than wake county. i've heard stories of ppl in the same house goin to different high schools, i mean just crazy stuff. we have our problems, but so doesn't everyone? not to say we shouldn't try to make it better, but i'm just sayin, we'll never be perfect and we're better off than some.

TheComputerGuy
02-06-2002, 03:42 PM
Chine only allows 1 child, and the females must be castrated, so no more children can be brought fourth, as I think back to World Geography.

China is over crowded, and people are starving

one reason Japan is a great education system is because they have a law I like to call "Don't want to learn, go to the rice fields"

If you dont make a certain level by 9th grade year, you are sent to the fields. They are comparing the best of the best there. While we just compare everyone, the slackers and the best.

Thought for homework eh?

Steves Mac
02-08-2002, 06:00 PM
communism, by definition is [i:20c7f7b861][b:20c7f7b861] supposed[/i:20c7f7b861][/b:20c7f7b861] to be good, and help "mankind"....................er something like that.....you know what im sayin

JWB
02-10-2002, 03:08 AM
If everyone worked as hard as the could then communism might be good, but the simple fact is if you are not getting rewarded for doing something a litle better you probably won't... Especially if you know your coworker doesnt even try and will get paid the same thing....

ConfusedYouth
02-10-2002, 12:49 PM
<<<Especially if you know your coworker doesnt even try and will get paid the same thing....>>>


This happens now people who work there --- of still get paid the same as there lazy co worker so im going to act like you never typed that...

Steves Mac
02-10-2002, 04:12 PM
how many of you are democrats and how many of you are republicans.....im just wondering

ConfusedYouth
02-10-2002, 04:49 PM
When I become the age of 18 I will not vote unless another person like Ralph Nader comes along I just don't see my self voting for the lesser of the evils.

TheComputerGuy
02-10-2002, 04:55 PM
I am proud to say, I have onservative ideas, and I like saving money, not spending it on people who do not deserve it.

:flame: freeloaders

VBallAngel4377
02-11-2002, 05:25 PM
i'm sure most of u have already figured it out, and if u haven't u might be a lil dense (just kidding! lol) but i'm a conservative republican

Steves Mac
02-11-2002, 06:20 PM
u calling me dense? i wasnt talking to the GENERAL population of allforums, not just you particularly...wheres all my democrats at?

JWB
02-12-2002, 07:24 PM
They're all tryign to get taxes raised again... hehe :) :)

Mugya
03-05-2002, 09:43 AM
I got your back steve. Honestly though. Like JFK said "its not the republican way or the democratic way we must find it is the right way we need to persue" and I feel this is very true. While arguing over who's right and who's wrong a lot of time is wasted. And in our lifetime its not much. We only have so much time to set up the future for the next generations to follow. And to live our lives to the fullist. We have the power to do so.

Mugya
03-05-2002, 09:45 AM
You know we need taxes right? I understand the your point but taxes are necessary to fight inflation promote lower interset rates and boost economy. Its been proven. And I know nobody wants there money taken from them. There is a resonable median that we can reach though.

JWB
04-02-2002, 10:15 PM
[quote:d9e6773404="Mugya"]
You know we need taxes right? I understand the your point but taxes are necessary to fight inflation promote lower interset rates and boost economy. Its been proven. And I know nobody wants there money taken from them. There is a resonable median that we can reach though. [/quote:d9e6773404]

Democrats in general waste more money than republicans. They support a larger more involved government. They put their nose where a government doesn't belong, and waste money. They take taxes and donate it places, why not let the citizens keep their tax money and donate to who they feel deserves it, etc....

TheComputerGuy
04-02-2002, 10:27 PM
Liberals always like to spend others pmoney, I mean that is a given right there.

One thing I have yet to see.....A politician with his hand in his own pocket.

Why should I take care of someone who wants to get screwed, and just have kids, shoot I will do that, doesnt bother me a bit, wait a second yes it doesn, I have this thing called integrity, about not taking what isnt mine....what a concept!

Anaclerion
04-03-2002, 12:08 AM
[quote:5b1ba60719="TheComputerGuy"]
I am proud to say, I have onservative ideas, and I like saving money, not spending it on people who do not deserve it.

:flame: freeloaders [/quote:5b1ba60719]Yeah, I'm sure 5 - 15% of the American population will like that suggestion.

Anaclerion
04-03-2002, 12:12 AM
[quote:1875927e78="JWB"]


Democrats in general waste more money than republicans. They support a larger more involved government. They put their nose where a government doesn't belong, and waste money. They take taxes and donate it places, why not let the citizens keep their tax money and donate to who they feel deserves it, etc.... [/quote:1875927e78]EVERYONE DOES THAT. Integrity or not...

JWB
04-11-2002, 05:44 PM
[quote:ba1b67c965="Anaclerion"]
Yeah, I'm sure 5 - 15% of the American population will like that suggestion. [/quote:ba1b67c965]

Aparantly more considering the president in office is a republican which me and thecomputerguy are.

ConfusedYouth
04-13-2002, 01:19 PM
I'm a Socialist.

prodigic
04-13-2002, 11:58 PM
This, as you can see, is my first post here. I managed to read the first five or six replies(which, seems to me, are the only ones pertaining to the initial post), and fully agreed with ConfusedYouth.

If you've studied any 1900s history what-so-ever you'd know just how useless counter-strikes towards terrorism is. Letting fly thousands of bombs upon Afghanistan will in no way "root out" terrorism as our sad, sad president claims. It will kill. Not only terrorists but civilians. (In fact, an independent investigation into the number of civilian deaths from bombing in Afghanistan says that over 3,900 innocent people of Afghanistan have died...this is more than the lives taken in New York on 9-11.) Casualties such as these will lead to more hate in the mideast, not to mention disapproval from European nations, and terrorism will grow an even larger and complex root system.

It's to be expected that implicating yourself in other people's affairs, like providing Israel with high-tech and incredibly deadly weapons, will bring on acts of hate. So here's the basic message I'm trying to get across: Get the hell out of foreign affairs not pertaining to us, or expect to be target of many acts of hate. Punching back does not eliminate the enemy, but only infuriates them more. Stop the bombing. Start treating the people.