"Medicine, electronic communications, space travel, genetic manipulation...these are the miracles about which we now tell our children. These are the miracles that herald the proof that science will bring us the answers. The ancient stories of immaculate conceptions, burning bushes, and parting seas are no longer relevant. God has become obsolete. Science has won the battle."

"Science may have alleviated the miseries of disease and drudgery and provided an array of gadgetry for our entertainment and convienience, but it has left us in a world without wonder. Our sunsets have been reduced to wavelengths and frequencies. The complexities of the universe have been shredded into mathematical equations. Even our self worth as human beings has been destroyed. Science proclaims that Planet Earth and its inhabitants are a meaningless speck in the grand scheme. A cosmic accident."

"Even the technology that promises to unite us , divides us. Each of us is now electronically connected to the globe, and yet we feel utterly alone. We are bombarded with violence, division, fracture, and betrayal. Skepticism has become a virtue. Cynicism and demand for proof has become enlightened thought. Is it any wonder that humans now feel more depressed and defeated than they have at any point in human history? Does science hold ANYTHING sacred? Science looks for answers by probing our unborn fetuses. Scinece even presumes to rearrange our own DNA. It shatters God's world into smaller and smaller pieces in quest of meaning...and all it finds is more questions."

"The ancient war between science and religion is over"

"You have won,. But you have not won fairly. You have not won by providing answers. You have won by so radically reorienting our society that truths we once saw as signposts seem inapplicable. Religion cannot keep up. Scientific growth is exponential. It feeds itself like a virus. Every new breakthrough opens doors for new breakthroughs. Mankind took thousands of years to progress from the wheel to the car. Yet decades from the car into space. Now we measure scientific progress in weeks. We are spinning out of control. The rift between us grows deeper and deeper, and as religion is left behind, people find themselves in a spiritual void. We cry out for meaning and believe me, we DO cry out. We see UFOs, engage in channeling, spirit contact, out-of-body experiences, mindquests- all these eccentric ideas have scientific veneer, but are unashamedy irrational. They are the desperate cry of the modern soul, lonely and tormented, crippled by its own enlightenment and its inability to accept meaning in anything removed from technology."

"I warn you, look around yourselves. Promises of science have not been kept. Promises of inefficiency and simplicity have bred nothing but chaos and pollution. We are a fractured and frantic species...moving down the path of destruction."

"Who is this God Science? who is the God who offers his people power but no moral framework to tell you how to use that power? What kind of God gives a child fire but does not warn the child of its dangers? The language of science comes with no signposts about good and bad."

"You murder unborn babies in the name of research that will save lives. Again, it is the church who points out the fallacy in this reasoning."

"And all the while, you proclaim the church is ignorant. But who is more ignorant? The man who cannot define lightning, or the man who does not respect its awesome power?"

"Show me proof there is a God, you say. i say use your telescopes to look to the heavens and tell me how there could not be a God!"

"Do you not see God in your science? How can you miss Him. you proclaim that even the slightest change in the force of gravity or the weight of an atom would have rendered our universe a lifeless mist rather than our magnificent sea of heavenly bodies, and yet you fail to God's hand in this?"

"Whether or not you believe in God"
"You must belive this. When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability. Faith.....ALL faiths...are admonitions that there is something we cannot understand, something to which we are accountable...With faith we are accountable to each other, to ourselves, and to a higher truth. Religion is flawed only because MAN is flawed."

"None of us can afford to be apathetic. Whether you see this evil as Satan, corruption, or immorality...the dark force is alive and growing everyday. Do not ignore it"

"Together we can step back from this abyss."

"Pray with me."

- Chamberlain Ventresca of Vatican City (a fictitious character)
ANGELS & DEMONS Dan Brown, 2000, Pocket Books
Pages 378- 384

That was various parts of a speech given by the Chamberlain of Vatican city in the novel ANGELS & DEMONS.

(Only post if you actually have something meaningful to say please, otherwise thank you for reading)

So what say you?

I did not find it moving. It portrays a very pessimistic view of our current world and makes assumptions that are not true. For instance, I still find beauty in sunsets and I do not by any meens feel that my self worth as a human being is diminished by technology. I do not feel alone at all, in fact the internet technology has alowed me to connect with people from all over the world. And research anything I want at anytime.

I would like to know what he based his statement"humans now feel more depressed and defeated than they have at any point in human history on. Since one can only experience the lifetime that they are in, this is a very subjective conclusion.

"I warn you, look around yourselves. Promises of science have not been kept. Promises of inefficiency and simplicity have bred nothing but chaos and pollution. We are a fractured and frantic species...moving down the path of destruction."

This guy sounds like he quit taking his meds. After reading this one gets the idea this guy is only a couple of hours from throwing himself off a bridge.

Promises of inefficiency and simplicity have bred nothing but chaos and pollution.

Running water, flushable toilets, no more small pox, prosthetic limbs, surgical tools are all products of kaos and destruction?

When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability.

A completely false assumption. Abandoning superstition improves our ability to deal with the world around us and connects us with our humanity. To assume that humans do not feel accountability to anything but a supreme being is pretty stupid. Of course, given that this man has been brainwashed in the belief that their is a giod, he probubly doesn't feel any accountability to anything but that god. What a terrible place to be. Having no acountability twords fellow man or the environment that sustains us. Religion does that to people.

You fail to understand his message. Perhaps his mention of God threw you off, in your hatred and jealousy of those who believe, you completey disregard the beauty of it and write a biased response that tries to scrap up any possible argument.

Newsflash: the internet is still loneliness, you may be chatting or sending audio/video. But you are not there with them, no tone, no voice, no presence, it is an empty experience without people there with you.
The annals of history show us the doors of the past, we have countless books, diaries, and records of humanity before us. How can you call that presumptuous, the oh-so-logical and mighty scientist lacks logic here.
Mentioning suicide and lack of medicating a fictitious young man adds nothing to your rebuttal.

CHAOS is everywhere. The world is in shards, everyone is in a state of distrust, need for facts, proof, is standard thought. Violence and other immoral actions are on the rise. War flares up, money is a new deity, morality is declining. yes chaos, wondrous chaos.

Abandoning our superstition as you said, wil help us deal with the world around us. But that would dehumanize us. Being human is not a physical thing, feelings, dreams, ideas, these are not apart of the "real world" as you call it. WE should not have accountability towards our enviroment, as i said before, humanity is a nonphysical thing

You missed the message and it reached out to you, even mentioned you. I do not believe you find true beauty in this world in way someone with a spiritual side could.

You slap the hand away that tries to pull you out of the water when you are drowning in your own filth. You are lost
(if you decide to respond to this rebuttal and call me presumptuous and foolhardy, you are likewise, so to avoid hypocrisy dont bother posting on this thread anymore :D)

On another note: keep the commentary coming, i would like to hear what people got out of this wonderful passage :)

Do not worry. I would not waste my time debating an issue with someone who instead of defending their position attacks the person who is debating it. You obviously didn't make this post for discussions sake. Good day.

"Attack" is a strong word, i was merely dismantling the validity of your comments and in doing so defending my own, which in turn led to the lack of truth in your latest statement.
and no this wasn't to be a debate/discussion. I wanted people to write what effect it had on their thoughts on the subject. You did that in your first sentence.
(and if you didn't want to waste your time in discussing things with me you just did)


so lets hear what other people think, what did you get out of this message? if nothing, oh well, perhaps a more in depth argument would have an affect, post you got nothing out of it or just leave the thread be if you wish. If something, post what it was and what quote.

Just glad to be here and start coversations here in Allforums-
Evak

I wish you all the best of luck

Originally posted by Evakian
and no this wasn't to be a debate/discussion.
Then would you like me to close the thread? If you didn't want something discussed, then why did you post it on a debate and discussion site?

I wanted for people to see it if they had not read that specific book. it is an interesting passage. Rather than debate it i wanted people to share what they got out of it. If you closed the thread wouldn't bother me, wouldn't be too pleasing either.

You decide, its your site

Originally posted by Evakian
Rather than debate it i wanted people to share what they got out of it.

Originally posted by Evakian
and no this wasn't to be a debate/discussion

Thats sort of pointless then, I express my views with the purpose that others will discuss and debate them and actually by posting your original point your asking people to discuss it.

Originally posted by Evakian
"Science may have alleviated the miseries of disease and drudgery and provided an array of gadgetry for our entertainment and convienience, but it has left us in a world without wonder.

I find there is plenty of wonder left in the world.


"Even the technology that promises to unite us , divides us. Each of us is now electronically connected to the globe, and yet we feel utterly alone. We are bombarded with violence, division, fracture, and betrayal. Skepticism has become a virtue. Cynicism and demand for proof has become enlightened thought. Is it any wonder that humans now feel more depressed and defeated than they have at any point in human history?

Horsehockey. I don't feel alone or depressed because of technology.

Does science hold ANYTHING sacred?

No, but then again Science isn't Religion, so that's ok.


Science looks for answers by probing our unborn fetuses. Scinece even presumes to rearrange our own DNA. It shatters God's world into smaller and smaller pieces in quest of meaning...and all it finds is more questions."

Science looks for answers everywhere and that's a good thing.

"The ancient war between science and religion is over"

Oh would that it were.

You have won by so radically reorienting our society that truths we once saw as signposts seem inapplicable.

I for one am glad that we still don't believe epileptic people are possessed by demons, or that the earth is flat. Damn science.

Religion cannot keep up. Scientific growth is exponential. It feeds itself like a virus.

Viruses don't eat.

Every new breakthrough opens doors for new breakthroughs. Mankind took thousands of years to progress from the wheel to the car. Yet decades from the car into space. Now we measure scientific progress in weeks.

Gross exaggeration.

We are spinning out of control. The rift between us grows deeper and deeper, and as religion is left behind, people find themselves in a spiritual void. We cry out for meaning and believe me, we DO cry out.

You may cry out, but I don't find the world lacking in "spiritual meaning".

We see UFOs, engage in channeling, spirit contact, out-of-body experiences, mindquests- all these eccentric ideas have scientific veneer, but are unashamedy irrational. They are the desperate cry of the modern soul, lonely and tormented, crippled by its own enlightenment and its inability to accept meaning in anything removed from technology."

I notice all of the examples you gave are of things people believe in without any valid proof...sort of like religion.

"I warn you, look around yourselves. Promises of science have not been kept. Promises of inefficiency and simplicity have bred nothing but chaos and pollution. We are a fractured and frantic species...moving down the path of destruction."

Science doesn't make promises, just predictions that have variable probabilities of occurring.

"Who is this God Science? who is the God who offers his people power but no moral framework to tell you how to use that power? What kind of God gives a child fire but does not warn the child of its dangers? The language of science comes with no signposts about good and bad."

Spoken like a man who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions.

"You murder unborn babies in the name of research that will save lives. Again, it is the church who points out the fallacy in this reasoning."

If you're referring to stem cell research, that is a gross mischaracterization of the truth.

"And all the while, you proclaim the church is ignorant. But who is more ignorant? The man who cannot define lightning, or the man who does not respect its awesome power?"

It would be impossible to accurately quantify the level of ignorance of the individuals in your example. They are both ignorant.

"Show me proof there is a God, you say. i say use your telescopes to look to the heavens and tell me how there could not be a God!"

How there cannot be a god? You are asking me to prove that something in your imagination doesn't exist. Impossible.

"Do you not see God in your science?

Not particularly, but I believe that if God did exist, we wouldn't be able to perceive him anyway.

How can you miss Him.

Because he isn't there?

you proclaim that even the slightest change in the force of gravity or the weight of an atom would have rendered our universe a lifeless mist rather than our magnificent sea of heavenly bodies, and yet you fail to God's hand in this?"

A fallacious argument made by those who don't understand cosmology.

"Whether or not you believe in God"
"You must belive this. When we as a species abandon our trust in the power greater than us, we abandon our sense of accountability. Faith.....ALL faiths...are admonitions that there is something we cannot understand, something to which we are accountable...With faith we are accountable to each other, to ourselves, and to a higher truth. Religion is flawed only because MAN is flawed."

I don't believe that garbage for one minute. We are accountable to each other and ourselves, and it's people who abandon that accountability, and make themselves only accountable to God, that are the problem.


(Only post if you actually have something meaningful to say please, otherwise thank you for reading)


Evakian, if you don't want people to respond to your posts, don't make them.

Originally posted by Vilepagan

Evakian, if you don't want people to respond to your posts, don't make them.

I can see everyone just ignoring him since in most of his posts this has become an issue. He gets upset when people discuss his points and screams "your ignoring my question" when they clearly arnt.

My personal view is he just likes the sound of his own voice.

-He gets upset when people discuss his points and screams "your ignoring my question" when they clearly arnt-

First off, who said these were MY points? hmm i do not remember me saying, or even thinking for that matter that they are/were. It is text from a book, not my statements.
I stated several times the purpose or reasoning of the thread. Although no one pays attention to that, as Loki does not, and does not even pay attention to the fact that it was a book passage, you are assuming they are my views.

Vilepagan (hehe good name ^^) ) just felt like repeating Echo2 with different words, also ignoring what i had said.

-My personal view is he just likes the sound of his own voice-

You are making assumptions that you know not to be true. Such things can be viewed as lies, but i see it more as ignorance of what i typed. Oh and one more time: These are not my views, did you even read the whole thing?

Originally posted by Evakian
Vilepagan (hehe good name ^^) ) just felt like repeating Echo2 with different words, also ignoring what i had said.


I was responding to your original post evakian. If I repeated what someone else said, perhaps the ideas have some validity. As far as ignoring is concerned, I've noticed that you don't address the points made by others, you just claim they are ignoring you. Stop whining and try debating for a change. You'll get better responses that way.

Perhaps i did not wish to debate or have debate on the subject. Perhaps you fail to realize that what i am doing or what my stated intentions were.

Perhaps....

You are in a debate forum you moron, If you dont like it.. Fuck off.

After being shot down for discussing his posts on three different occasions, I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't want to discuss or debate his posts. He is only posting to try and sound intellegent. What he posts is ussually something from a book or a speach and he really has no idea what it says, it just sounds good to him so he throws it out.

Originally posted by Echo2
What he posts is ussually something from a book or a speach and he really has no idea what it says, it just sounds good to him so he throws it out.

Exactly, i picked this up pretty quickly and its annoyed me ever since.

My my, what aggression im sensing, have i offended you so greatly there is a need for repeated malacious attacks?

I do not want some of my posts to be debates, more clearly: i want people to read the first post and then post their thoughts on it without getting into a debate over who is right and who is wrong or some sort of argument.
Who said this was a debate forum? it is not labeled debate forum and i also stated several times that there is no need to debate this.

This all comes depending on the subject of the post, sometimes it is open to discussion, other times it is not.

Maybe you just dislike the fact that i do not like to turn certain issues into debates and you decide to do so yourself.

As for the material: certain films, books, plays, world events, etc make for good, interesting topics. More cerebral, literate films with meanings are meant to be looked over.

Insulting will get you nowhere. And as for your theories about me, sticks and stones my dears. I know the truth and thats what counts.

Although i probably shouldn't have typed this seeing in the past you are selective with what messages tell you, you ignore parts.

Are you having a bad day and wish to spew insults? fine, no problems if that is the case. Did i do something or say something cruel to you and you desire retribution against me? most troubling.

So whatever your troubles, just PM and we can talk ^^ i suppose its best to stay off the thread with non important messages.

Have a nice day allforums :)

Evak, do not post anything here that you do not want opinions on.
My opinion on your printed material, is the belief that man, in his seeking of scientific knowledge, is fulfilling his mental evolution.
Gods and demons may die, only to be replaced with other wonders, other challenges of understanding.

One day science may justify the original beliefs of gods, angels, and demons. Only to find that a natural occurance was mis-named. Who knows? There is still much mystery around every corner.

Basically he wants everyone to discuss his topics while agreeing with them. Any disagreement with any of his plagerized posts seems to upset him.

Interesting thought Dan F
and Echo: for this thread i merely wanted people to post their thoughts without getting into conversation without others (Ffom this, i disagree with...because....and...etc, that is what i meant, so people would not be affected in their observations by others views)
Dan Fussell has done that quite well.
Plagarized? i did cite my information, although neither APA or MPA format, i still did cite the source.

Am i speaking german? if not then why do you keep misinterpreting what i intended the post for despite me reposting it over and over? is this a game? is it funny to you?