Just when you thought the US won a military monopoly on torture in Iraq they show they are willing to share...

"West turns blind eye as police put Saddam's torturers back to work

IRAQI security forces, set up by American and British troops, torture detainees by pulling out their fingernails, burning them with hot irons or giving them electric shocks, Iraqi officials say. Cases have also been recorded of bound prisoners being beaten to death by police."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1683578,00.html

So is this just another ploy to show that we're out to destroy the world, one country at a time?

I think he is tryng to show that although we think of ourselfs as a moral country our actions have shown otherwise.

And that after $350 billion dollars, 100,000 dead Iraqis and 1700 dead Americans nothing has changed in Iraq.

nothing has changed? man your loopy. they had elections. I know aht doesnt mean anything to you but it is a big deal. Despite the best attempts of the terrorists and naysayers like you, the proccess is moving forward.

Read my quote...I see some people agreeing with the latter, and a select few with the earlier. I think that makes a good statement on Iraq.

ahhh..I do love the "elections = everythings goin great" argument. You know people didn't even get to vote for a particular person. They only voted for parties (i guess theyre trying to make it like the US :D ). No candidate spoke on any issues nor were they allowed to go public before the elections. Elections do not mean democracy. There wasn't even any international observers at the polls. Nor does the US (or any other country for that matter, except Israel) even consider a vote under occupation legitimate (just look at their rhetoric towards lebanon/syria).

"Under the Vienna Convention, an occupying force has no right to change composition of occupied territories socially, culturally, educationally or politically. This election was based on the laws laid down by former 'Viceroy' American Paul Bremer and is entirely unconstitutional. Bremer personally appointed the overseers for the election", says Al Mukhtar, thus, far from 'free and fair' and heralding Iraqi 'democracy' they are entirely engineered by Bush's man. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0118-32.htm

Not only that but the Busheviks with the CIA sought to rig the Iraq elections in their favor. Suppossedly they didn't but anonymous CIA figures say they did.

Plan Called for Covert Aid in Iraq Vote
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/politics/17elect.html

There was only about a 55% turn out. Large crosses of the population (like Sunnis) boycotted the elections all togather because it was seen as tainted and illegitimate. Also don't forget that the voter registration was linked directly to food ration books. Many people were told that if they didn't vote they would not get food.

People had also been holdering smaller neighborhood and town votes on their own without the US (before the "elections"). Then the US came in and appointed someone else (many times former Baathists). Hilla is one example where they met Iraqi resistence and prtest for such.

The US also barred some candidates from running.

That was not democracy. Especially considering that 100 elected Iraqi MPs have demanded that the US remove itself from Iraq and the US hasn't done a damn thing.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
"elections = everythings goin great"
The elections were a step towards everything going great...sometimes you just gotta have a little thing called "patience." Yes, not everything is going to instantaneously go great for us once an election is held, but c'mon, even having that much is better than still having a martial-law-ruled (or whatever it was) Iraq, where there was no form of solid leadership whatsoever. Just because bad stuff is still happening after the elections doesn't mean that the elections were a flop.

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
The elections were a step towards everything going great...sometimes you just gotta have a little thing called "patience." Yes, not everything is going to instantaneously go great for us once an election is held, but c'mon, even having that much is better than still having a martial-law-ruled (or whatever it was) Iraq, where there was no form of solid leadership whatsoever. Just because bad stuff is still happening after the elections doesn't mean that the elections were a flop.

If you think that scaring (fear of loosing food coupons) the Iraqi people into voting for a party (not a candidate) is going to stop the fighting amongst the Shiites and Sunnis you ought to pull your head out of the sand. Yes, there has been change, no it hasn't been for the better. The people are worse off now than they were under Sadamn. At least under his rule they had an infrastructure and bombs weren't going off in the streets and schools and hospitals on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Echo2
If you think that scaring (fear of loosing food coupons)

What the hell are you talking about?

Originally posted by Echo2
Yes, there has been change, no it hasn't been for the better.
Well it's not like it's going to happen at the drop of a hat either.

so echo, do you think if the iraqi people had the option to vote for saddam and have everything back the way it was before the war they would do it? i dont think so. by saying what you are saying, that is waht you are saying, get it?

I think it would be a VERY, VERY close vote. I'm not sure which way it would go.

By saying what I was saying, huh?

I believe that a god proportion of Iraqis just want their personal safety and lifes back. That doesn't meen they liked sadamn, just that they are sick of living in fear in a war zone. At least under sadamn they knew who the enemy was and as long as they kept their feelings to themselfs they were safe. Today they are not safe walking down the street.

The people who have lost their homes, business's, life savings, health and family members may vote differently than you think. Consider watching your child starve to death or die from lack of medical care, or being blown up in the street just because he/she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. A person can hate the regime but still long for the safety it gave to their day to day lifes.

Lionel - there were reports of many Iraqis who were told that if they didn't vote then they would no longer recieve food rations. Since the rations book was used as voter ID this was quite plausible to many many people.

do you assholes h\HAVE to try and bring down EVERYTHING that goes on in iraq? its like a personel vendetta with you.

I suppose Mr. 500 won't like to hear that democracy is still on track and making progress in Iraq?

that would be like showing a cross to a vampire KC

Nope. Democracy in Iraq would be a great thing. Unfortunatly it is impossible so long as the US occupies the country.

Did you fail to read the link I provided saying that the US subverted the Iraq election?

Please do tell what does "democracy on track" mean to you? 10 more years of violence and bombings?

For all the idiots claiming that "these people" just hate the US and were terrorists in the first place...

Study cites seeds of terror in Iraq
War radicalized most, probes find
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/17/study_cites_seeds_of_terror_in_iraq/

Studies: Most foreign fighters didn't wage terror before Iraq war
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3269420

do you think if the iraqi people had the option to vote for saddam and have everything back the way it was before the war they would do it? Absolutely in a heart beat! Sadam was a tyrant sure, he killed some people that tried to take his chair (as leader) uh-huh so? that's not strange or uncommon among leaders.

What U.S. troops are doing to the Iraqi men, women and children makes Saddam look like a GD saint

Democracy in Iraq would be a great thing.

You do understand that Iraq is a Muslim country don't you? Muslims don't believe in democracy they believe in the laws of Allah (Islamic Shariah) not the laws made by men.

Originally posted by PrincessinAK
What U.S. troops are doing to the Iraqi men, women and children makes Saddam look like a GD saint
We're doing that?

You do understand that Iraq is a Muslim country don't you? Muslims don't believe in democracy they believe in the laws of Allah (Islamic Shariah) not the laws made by men.uhhh...theres a ton of christians and a few jews not to mention a few other minor religions.

It was the Sunnis in Iraq that forced the elections to take place in Iraq. Bush didn't want such things but had to give in under their pressure. It wouldn't look to 'liberating' is he refused.

Originally posted by PrincessinAK
You do understand that Iraq is a Muslim country don't you? Muslims don't believe in democracy they believe in the laws of Allah (Islamic Shariah) not the laws made by men. I don't believe that there's a society on this planet that wouldn't want to choose its own government. They may choose a government that enforces Shariah (though I believe it's unlikely they would do so), but so long as they can make that choice, it's democracy.

I don't believe that there's a society on this planet that wouldn't want to choose its own government

Well believe it or don't. Practicing Muslims DON'T want democracy and are quite content with their own religious laws.

uhhh...theres a ton of christians and a few jews not to mention a few other minor religions.

Uhh, Iraq is a Muslim country. Regardless of the few Christians and Jews you speak of.

Great that doesn't give them the right to rule over others. The Muslims can adheere to their own laws and teh others will adhere to their own laws. The tyranny of the majority is just that, tyranny. It is unacceptable in any form.

And you have a severe problem if you think people are happy being ruled without say, regardless of who they are or where they come from.

Originally posted by PrincessinAK
Well believe it or don't. Practicing Muslims DON'T want democracy and are quite content with their own religious laws. There are many Muslim countries that have had, and still have, democratic elections. The elections aren't always fair and the governments they elect don't always last, but they certainly show the willingness of many Muslims to choose their own government. What you said about Muslims not wanting democracy may be true for a few extremists, but certainly doesn't apply to the majority of Muslims.