Webster defines terror as “Overwhelming fear”, “An emotion”. Neither of these are tangible. They are feelings. Terrorism is the “tactic” or “method” to bring these to the forefront. How can one win a war fighting emotions and tactics. Neither of these are a “type of war”. Blitzkrieg, for example, is a “type” of warfare involving maneuver, shock, firepower and mobility. This is the type of war that can be won or lost. Why, because it is based on Ideology not emotions.
What is the difference? Well, Webster defines Ideology as, “Ideas, doctrines, or a way of thinking characteristic of a “political or economic” theory or system”.

Hence our involvement in WWII. That one, we won, or did we?

Jihad is another piece of bad news, but we can get to that later. Meanwhile have fun with this one. Perhaps someone would like to use economics and oil in the same sentence.

Webster, the dictionary you site, defines terrorism as "the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion."

This, and not simply the act of instilling fear, is what most people refer to when they use the word "terrorism." It usually does involve an ideology, and can also be fought against.

Originally posted by Jester
Webster, the dictionary you site, defines terrorism as "the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion."

This, and not simply the act of instilling fear, is what most people refer to when they use the word "terrorism." It usually does involve an ideology, and can also be fought against.

Good point! Lets hope so.
I have a 5 year old grand son, and at times I think he is a "Holy Terror" I would certainly agree that a good paddeling is in order.

America's great strength, and at the same time weakness, is that our attention span is so short, we don't stay scared long enough.

On the one hand, it makes us more vulnerable to the actual terrorist act, but on the other hand, is terrorism really effective if we move on so quickly?

Originally posted by Brooks
America's great strength, and at the same time weakness, is that our attention span is so short, we don't stay scared long enough.

On the one hand, it makes us more vulnerable to the actual terrorist act, but on the other hand, is terrorism really effective if we move on so quickly?

Your point is well taken, but I have no answer for your question. I just don't know. The historians may have an answer.

Originally posted by Jester

This, and not simply the act of instilling fear, is what most people refer to when they use the word "terrorism." It usually does involve an ideology, and can also be fought against.

Not in my opinion. Not in any effective way.

Claiming to be "fighting" terrorism is like standing in the middle of a swarm of angry bees and swatting at them madly, and calling yourself "fighting" the bees. You are "fighting" an enemy that cannot be contained or made to bow to force.

You can "fight" the swarm of bees all you like, you may even kill a few of them, but you can never defeat the swarm........the more of them you kill, the more that will come flying out to aid their hivemates and sting you in the ass..........all you can do is make them angrier and do MORE harm than good to yourself.

Only an insane person will continue to "fight" a swarm of bees......and only an insane nation will continue to try to eliminate terrorism (add to that the fact that said nation will likely bankrupt itself in the process) from the world thru military force.

Diplomacy, understanding and cooperation is the ONLY way to address the issues that caused people to take up terrorism against you in the first place.

The minute this nation stops bombing and killing Muslims, stops starving them out, and stops supporting regimes [i.e., Israel] who are carrying out genocidal campaigns against Muslims, THAT is the minute the tide will be turned against terrorism.

Originally posted by Freethinker
1. Claiming to be "fighting" terrorism is like standing in the middle of a swarm of angry bees and swatting at them madly, and calling yourself "fighting" the bees. You are "fighting" an enemy that cannot be contained or made to bow to force.

2. Diplomacy, understanding and cooperation is the ONLY way to address the issues that caused people to take up terrorism against you in the first place.


1. Burn the hive before they get in your house.

2. Thank you. Karl Rove said the left believes this and now everyone's demanding an apology.

Originally posted by Brooks

Karl Rove said the left believes this .......

In my case he was pretty much right.

It absolutely SHOULD have been handled as a criminal matter........and yes we SHOULD have been looking within our society to see what we as a country had done that could have caused people to commit suicide in order to wage an attack that was more symbolic than (militarily) strategic.

We would not have had to look very far.......

Originally posted by Freethinker
In my case he was pretty much right.

It absolutely SHOULD have been handled as a criminal matter
I applaud your consistency

Ralph - Is it just me or are you claiming that war isn't terrorism? War is the uber-refined version of terrorism. It is the terrorism of the state. Well-funded and well advertised. The core of "shock and Awe" was terrorism. And I don't know if you checked lately or not but the US's most well funded and advanced military in teh world is getting its ass kicked on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Brooks

2. Thank you. Karl Rove said the left believes this and now everyone's demanding an apology.

Sorry Brooks - The only people that I remember hearing say that we deserved 9-11 were...

#1) Pat Robertson
#2) Jerry Falwell

Originally posted by Tapeworm
Sorry Brooks - The only people that I remember hearing say that we deserved 9-11 were...

#1) Pat Robertson
#2) Jerry Falwell
What??? You haven't been here that long have you?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
What??? You haven't been here that long have you?

I doubt many politicians make it to this forum but on the NATIONAL front I remember both of them saying that America's wickedness brought on this tradgedy. Last I recall, neither one of them were liberals.

Originally posted by Tapeworm
I doubt many politicians make it to this forum but on the NATIONAL front I remember both of them saying that America's wickedness brought on this tradgedy. Last I recall, neither one of them were liberals.

WOW!!
Look at all the raised hair.
You guys went crazy with this one.
Right on folks.

Originally posted by Freethinker
In my case he was pretty much right.

It absolutely SHOULD have been handled as a criminal matter........and yes we SHOULD have been looking within our society to see what we as a country had done that could have caused people to commit suicide in order to wage an attack that was more symbolic than (militarily) strategic.

We would not have had to look very far.......
Someone Haitian robs a store in south Florida and clearly the answer is to "look into" what made him do it in the first place…you must be joking.

That's what kills me about people like you - you take one thing and call it another. It's not theft; it's poverty. It's not assault; it's a poor upbringing, etc., etc. Where does the blame fall if not on the people who perpetrated the act of MASS MURDER on 9-11?

Originally posted by Tapeworm
Sorry Brooks - The only people that I remember hearing say that we deserved 9-11 were...

#1) Pat Robertson
#2) Jerry Falwell

I will accept them as my spokespeople when the left accepts ELF, ALF and the Unabomber

Originally posted by Tapeworm
Last I recall, neither one of them were liberals.
And neither one of them are politicians. Jerry Falwell is a Baptist minister who's essentially a glorified televangelist, and unfortunately, Pat Robertson is his freakish doppelganger. Their political affiliations are inconsequential.

A list of people who have said 9-11 was our fault:

Shaman

Freethinker and his hero, Gore Vidal

500lbguerilla

Dop

Hollywood.

I can't believe you even tried to twist this like you did! Democrats in general have been saying 9-11 is our fault with reasons ranging from us ignoring intelligence and killing their people, to actually perpetrating the act ourselves.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
That's what kills me about people like you - you take one thing and call it another. It's not theft; it's poverty. It's not assault; it's a poor upbringing, etc., etc. Where does the blame fall if not on the people who perpetrated the act of MASS MURDER on 9-11?

Do you want to kick ass and have a vengence campaign or do you want to be safe in your bed at night? It depends on your ultimate goal.

If your goal is; "American lives and safety come first" then I would suggest to you a psychological war is more effective than a guns and death war. Thus one must understand the motivating force behind the terrorism and remove the motivation. It is that simple.

Or you can just ship everyone overseas to die and pretend you are making a difference in the 'war on terrorism". Seems like most of your people have had enough of that approach!

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Do you want to kick ass and have a vengence campaign or do you want to be safe in your bed at night? It depends on your ultimate goal.
Sounds great, but I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.
Originally posted by ~Sal~
If your goal is; "American lives and safety come first" then I would suggest to you a psychological war is more effective than a guns and death war. Thus one must understand the motivating force behind the terrorism and remove the motivation. It is that simple.
Oh but I fully believe in psychological warfare. Round them up, and threaten anyone who doesn't turn over known terrorists with indefinite prison sentences. That'll stop this bullshit real fast...

Crimethinc made a great point long ago:
http://www.crimethinc.com/downloads/source/leaders.pdf

A guy named Pape just did a study on suicide bombings and heres his conclusions:

"What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland"

Now I would contend his use of the word "democracy" here because it is misplaced. Suicide bombing comes from occupation. When people feel they have nothing left to lose because an overwhelmingly more powerful military(opposition) is occupying their country and taking their homes with imunity. The most dangerous man is the one with nothing left to lose. The US forgot this in the 'might makes right' wet dream of the last 20 years that ended on 9-11 (but only for a few hours).
Their political affiliations are inconsequential.actually their religious affiliations are of much signifigance since Bush has shackled himself to the religious right. It was his choice, not theirs.
Someone Haitian robs a store in south Florida and clearly the answer is to "look into" what made him do it in the first place…you must be joking. Nope...clearly the answer is to go to the dominican republic (close enough in location and skin color) and kill a few innocent families there to teach them that the US will not tolerate crime. right Prea?

Ill say it:
9-11:You Reap what you Sow

"Your leaders can't protect you, but they can get you killed"

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
"Your leaders can't protect you, but they can get you killed"

substitute "leaders" with "parents"... and you have today's american society

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Someone Haitian robs a store in south Florida and clearly the answer is to "look into" what made him do it in the first place…you must be joking.

In the case of the US (as it regards the terrorists having attacked us) , and in order for it to be a true analogy, your version of the Haitian robber would have to include the fact that the store owner (i.e., the US) had previously killed the members of the Haitian robber's family.

In light of that circumstance, THEN it becomes a bit more understandable WHY the Haitian robber (i.e., the terrorists) had a score to settle.


Originally posted by The Praetorian
That's what kills me about people like you - you take one thing and call it another.

That's what kills me about you and your *head-in-the-sand* Rightwing ilk......you can not and will not ever accept responsibility for what your government has perpetrated or who they have killed........or the ways in which said killings have motivated people to retaliate.

[i]Originally posted by The Praetorian
Where does the blame fall if not on the people who perpetrated the act of MASS MURDER on 9-11?

Glad you asked.

IMO......the blame falls upon the leadership in the US that MOTIVATED the attacks.

Upon the leadership in the US that supports --to the tune of billions of dollars per year-- the Israelis campaign of genocide against the Palestinians.

Upon the leadership in the US that caused over a million innocent Iraqis to die during the sanctions.

Upon the leadership in the US that has for decades demonstrated how unhesistant it is to kill Muslims ---by the thousands-- who get in the way of profits for the big Oil companies [IOW, Bush's cronies].

Originally posted by Brooks
1. Burn the hive before they get in your house.

In this particular analogy, **burning the hive** would involve killing millions of completely innocent individuals.

You cannot "burn down" a hive when that hive is a huge geographical area .........UNLESS you are willing to indiscriminately kill thousands of times more innocent men, women and children than there are terrorists.

Now, I understand that MANY people [i.e., the die-hard Conservative faction] in this country are perfectly comfortable with slaughtering millions of innocent people in order to "get" a few terrorists.

I --and no doubt every other human being on the planet with a conscience-- for one find such a proposal abominable.

Originally posted by Brooks
2. Thank you. Karl Rove said the left believes this and now everyone's demanding an apology.


Originally posted by Tapeworm
Sorry Brooks - The only people that I remember hearing say that we deserved 9-11 were...

#1) Pat Robertson
#2) Jerry Falwell

I will not say that the US "deserved" it.....but I will definitely say that the political leadership in the US brought it down upon all of us thru their unconscionable, murderous actions against the Muslims in the Middle East.

Originally posted by Freethinker
In this particular analogy, **burning the hive** would involve killing millions of completely innocent individuals.

You cannot "burn down" a hive when that hive is a huge geographical area .........UNLESS you are willing to indiscriminately kill thousands of times more innocent men, women and children than there are terrorists.

Now, I understand that MANY people [i.e., the die-hard Conservative faction] in this country are perfectly comfortable with slaughtering millions of innocent people in order to "get" a few terrorists.

I --and no doubt every other human being on the planet with a conscience-- for one find such a proposal abominable.

I have voted Republican for 50 years, I never thought I'd live to see the day that I would feel such shame for the party. I have had a strong conviction in support of its doctrins. But you are so right on this one. This is a lose lose situation. Bush said again today, "WE are going to stay the course". God help us.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Ralph - Is it just me or are you claiming that war isn't terrorism? War is the uber-refined version of terrorism. It is the terrorism of the state. Well-funded and well advertised. The core of "shock and Awe" was terrorism. And I don't know if you checked lately or not but the US's most well funded and advanced military in teh world is getting its ass kicked on a daily basis.


What I'm saying is that 'Terrorism' is a tactic of warfare. We without a doubt are in one hell of war. What we are fighting is an ideology of a religious nature, coupled with the economics of a country that has a comodity that the world is in need of. ie: oil. Tactics are ways to conduct the war. To say we are fighting "terrorism" is like saying we are fighting "air superiorty" or "U-boat wolf packs packs" We won WWII by beating Hitlers Ideology of the super race, and his economic needs for Germany to recover from WWI. Our tactics consisted of day and night bombing raids. To the Germans that was terror at it's best. We terrorized Japan with the bomb. Terror is a very effective way to wage war just as the German 'Blitzkrieg" was. again a method of warfare and god knows a terror to Polland and France. Londons terror was the "Blitz".This war is against all of those that want us out of the Middle East and radical islamic factions. This is the war I doubt we can win. It's the same "type" of war we faught in Korea and Vietnam only difference there, was, it was called communisium. As you may recall we lost em both. As to put it in your words, We are getting our ass kicked again. We will continus to get it kicked until we recognize just what we are up against. Remember the Middle East has been in turmoil since before Jesus Christ. He couldn't fix it, How can we?