Hilary and Biden in 2008? Biden threw his hat into the ring this weekend.

Jeez what a nightmare scenario. (Hilary mostly that is)

I think McCain would have a good shot.

Originally posted by Echo2
Hilary and Biden in 2008? Biden threw his hat into the ring this weekend. i like hillary, she can definitely be no worst that the commanding jackass that's in there now ! hell, even mc cain, with that piece of steel in his head, makes better sense than the jerk-o-dent !

I don't trust McCain. He may come across as middle of the road but when the chips are down he rallied behind Bush. He might be able to woo some democratic votes but he will be a traitor to the democratic causes if he ever gets to the presidency.

If she were smart, she'd pick a Democrat from the south. Otherwise they risk, again, appearing as the party of New England elitists, despite Hillary's time spent in Arkansas.

i dont think the dems can win anyway. the republicans have everyone so damn jaded, people cant politically think straight. republicans in 2008:(

If things continue to go downhill with the current administration, people might not want to deal with another Republican president in '08. The country is clearly divided over a lot of issues and a lot can happen between now and '08 that could push things into the Democrat party's favor.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
If she were smart, she'd pick a Democrat from the south. Otherwise they risk, again, appearing as the party of New England elitists, despite Hillary's time spent in Arkansas.

Screw the south ... Gore actually won without the south and Kerry nearly won without the south ... let the south go F themselves while the dems concentrate on the west and maybe a couple of mid-west states.

Look at the mentality in the south ... in South Carolina they've lost nearly every textile job and they still vote for Bush because he was chosen by god and speaks directly to her [sic] -- in Georgia they still have segregated proms -- In Alabama they want to put bible statues in courthouses -- in Texas they drag blacks behind pickup trucks -- and in general, the south wants to remove a woman's rights, black's rights and return to the days of the landowner being the only ones that get to vote. I won't even mention the general homophobia throughout the south and the racism.

Biden is dreaming ... he signed his deal with the devil when he backed the bankruptcy law ... the dems don't have that short of a memory.

Don't make me laugh -- Johnny Bush hugger will never get through the primaries.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Screw the south ...

Look at the mentality in the south ... in South Carolina they've lost nearly every textile job and they still vote for Bush because he was chosen by god and speaks directly to her [sic] (Oh, and I suppose Bush is responsible that, you jellyfish-sucking mental midget.) -- in Georgia they still have segregated proms -- In Alabama they want to put bible statues in courthouses -- in Texas they drag blacks behind pickup trucks -- and in general, the south wants to remove a woman's rights, black's rights and return to the days of the landowner being the only ones that get to vote. I won't even mention the general homophobia throughout the south and the racism.
Back at it again, I see. You're as predictable as a child's inflatable punching toy. You bop the clown, it springs back; you hit it again in anger only to then realize it never held any importance in the first place. Clearly, you've lost your grip on reality and have descended into an abyss of irreversible lunacy. In closing, you're a bitter brand of Co-Cal fruitcake, Lungdop Philing, and much less, one that I wouldn't recommend to an enemy.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Back at it again, I see. You're as predictable as a child's inflatable punching toy. You bop the clown, it springs back; you hit it again in anger only to then realize it never held any importance in the first place. Clearly, you've lost your grip on reality and have descended into an abyss of irreversible lunacy. In closing, you're a bitter brand of Co-Cal fruitcake, Lungdop Philing, and much less, one that I wouldn't recommend to an enemy.

I see your in your ussual good mood this morning.

Echo, obviously you're in favor of taking an entire cross-section of this country and labeling them as racist idiots. It's not right, nor is it fair. The same logic could be applied to Blacks, Hispanics, Haitians, Cubans, etc., and would you be in favor of me taking one of those groups and labeling them the way he did HALF of the fucking country?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Echo, obviously you're in favor of taking an entire cross-section of this country and labeling them as racist idiots.

That is YOUR assumtion. I said nothing of the sort.


It's not right, nor is it fair. The same logic could be applied to Blacks, Hispanics, Haitians, Cubans, etc., and would you be in favor of me taking one of those groups and labeling them the way he did HALF of the fucking country?

My post was not in favor of anything and my comment was not directed towords what DOP said. It was directed at how eloquently you responded.

FYI - Any idividual supporting the GOP's crimes, in my oppinion, is not fit to give lectures on fairness.

Originally posted by Embyr
If things continue to go downhill with the current administration, people might not want to deal with another Republican president in '08.

I tend to agree. If the Republicans run someone associated with Bush, or someone too much like Bush, I think they'd have a problem with the independents fleeing en masse. Unless of course the alternative is Hillary.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Screw the south ... Gore actually won without the south and Kerry nearly won without the south ... let the south go F themselves while the dems concentrate on the west and maybe a couple of mid-west states.

Gee, I wonder why the Democrats don't pick up more Southern votes? Regardless of whether you like southerners or not, they'd sure be helpful in winning the next election.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
The same logic could be applied to Blacks, Hispanics, Haitians, Cubans, etc., and would you be in favor of me taking one of those groups and labeling them the way he did HALF of the fucking country?

These groups do get labelled and painted with a broad brush especially by the conservative party of the big tent.

ROTF

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
These groups do get labelled and painted with a broad brush especially by the conservative party of the big tent.

ROTF
And you're equally culpable for doing the same. That aside, enlighten me: just what are you trying to accomplish using that tactic? On a side note, I believe it's called stereotyping...

Originally posted by Echo2
FYI - Any idividual supporting the GOP's crimes, in my oppinion, is not fit to give lectures on fairness.

So anyone who supports something you don't and has an opinion you don't share, isn't entitled to express it? C'mon.

John McCain as Prez...he's from my state but me no likey him...and I get to vote in 2008...bitchin'...

And besides, is it OUR fault the retarded Southeners build up their own reputation?

Originally posted by revenG_DeSire
And besides, is it OUR fault the retarded Southeners build up their own reputation?

No. It's "retarded" people who use stereotypes to define a group of people, (like the Southerners here in question) and claim these stereotypes are all fact and true representations of them, who are at fault. I'm sorry, but as much as stupid local and state governments throughout the Southern states seem to make the most ridiculous decisions regarding various issues at times, people like you are just as stupid for thinking these decisions represent all Southerners. I'm not bitter but gee, do you think all of the Southerners who reside in the "red zone" are racist and anti-social expansion? I really hope not. Don't generalize. It's bad.

Screw the south ... Gore actually won without the south and Kerry nearly won without the south ... let the south go F themselves while the dems concentrate on the west and maybe a couple of mid-west states.
Sounds similar to some things in the mid 1800s...

I've mentioned it before, but I'd like to repeat myself. If Hilary lands on the Democratic ticket, I will be voting Republican regardless of who it is. Only exception being if it's Jeb Bush, in which case you can call me a British citizen, or maybe I'll go to the Congo or Iran, it'll probably be a hell of a lot better over there.

Biden is running for President? I didn't know MBNA was looking for a new President! </lame joke>

If Hillary or Biden get the Dem nomination, I'm afraid I'll have to hold my nose and vote for them. I'm really hoping this time we'll get somebody who isn't a neo-liberal DLC corporate whore. I'd like the nomination to go to Russ Feingold or Dick Durbin. Wes Clark would be good too.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Look at the mentality in the south ... in South Carolina they've lost nearly every textile job and they still vote for Bush because he was chosen by god and speaks directly to her [sic] -- in Georgia they still have segregated proms -- In Alabama they want to put bible statues in courthouses -- in Texas they drag blacks behind pickup trucks -- and in general, the south wants to remove a woman's rights, black's rights and return to the days of the landowner being the only ones that get to vote. I won't even mention the general homophobia throughout the south and the racism.

Excellent points.

The South is brim full of imbeciles who cannot WAIT to get into that fucking booth and cast a vote AGAINST their own best interests..........because, as we all know so well, " Republicans is "mooooooooral" and them Demoncrats is evil adulterers!!!" ............it's incredible how politically clueless the average Joe Sixpack in the South is.

Originally posted by Embyr
do you think all of the Southerners who reside in the "red zone" are racist and anti-social expansion? I really hope not. Don't generalize. It's bad.

Yes I do think the majority (not all) of southerners are racists and homophobes and yes before you ask -- I have spent time there.

But the point of my post was ... the dems are wasting their time and money going after southern states that they can't and won't win regardless of who they run.

The Senate recently issued one of those lame feel good apologies for not passing anti-lynching legislation. The reason they couldn't do it sooner is because the southern senators went against it. Last week it passed.

The southern senators (who also voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964) are no longer dominated by Democrats.

I think the racism of which you old speak is the old south.

I wouldn't say all environmentalists are terrorists just based on ALF, ELF and the Unabomber.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Excellent points.

The South is brim full of imbeciles who cannot WAIT to get into that fucking booth and cast a vote AGAINST their own best interests..........because, as we all know so well, " Republicans is "mooooooooral" and them Demoncrats is evil adulterers!!!" ............it's incredible how politically clueless the average Joe Sixpack in the South is.
Calling you dull is a gross underestimation of just how tedious you are. You have the personal charm of a drag queen and about as much class as a bucket of used prophylactics lodged on top of a dumpster in the Blue Light district of Newark, New Jersey. Politically speaking, you’re an egotistical, elitist assbag who doesn't understand the first thing about financial or political stratagem. In short, you and Dop deserve one another.

Originally posted by Echo2
Hilary and Biden in 2008? Biden threw his hat into the ring this weekend.

NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY, oh did i say NASTY NASTY NASTY NASTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Embyr
If things continue to go downhill with the current administration, people might not want to deal with another Republican president in '08. The country is clearly divided over a lot of issues and a lot can happen between now and '08 that could push things into the Democrat party's favor. but the dems arent doing anything to WIN favor. they keep letting the asses talk.

in the case of elections it doesn't matter much what southerners are really like, because they vote like racist homophobic jesus freak dumbasses. although im sure many of them aren't actually like that, thats who they elect!!

Originally posted by Freethinker
The South is brim full of imbeciles who cannot WAIT to get into that fucking booth and cast a vote AGAINST their own best interests

Maybe they don't want to vote for a party arrogant enough to think they know better than the person themself what's in their best interest.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Yes I do think the majority (not all) of southerners are racists and homophobes and yes before you ask -- I have spent time there.

Of course you also said that Michael Jackson had no chance of acquital because the mostly white jury would never acquit him, so maybe you're not the best judge of such things.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
in the case of elections it doesn't matter much what southerners are really like, because they vote like racist homophobic jesus freak dumbasses. although im sure many of them aren't actually like that, thats who they elect!!

I can just sense the caring and love the Democratic party has for those it supposedly wants to help. "Attention dumbasses! Vote for us! We know what's best for you! You're too stupid to choose on your own!"

Originally posted by WhammyBar
in the case of elections it doesn't matter much what southerners are really like, because they vote like racist homophobic jesus freak dumbasses. although im sure many of them aren't actually like that, thats who they elect!!

Can we please drop Bob Byrd and Al Gore already.

I lived in the south for over a decade. Not all of them are of the "southern mentality" but a large majority of them are. It's isn't called the bible belt for nothing. There are a large number of poorly educated, minority hating, guns, god and guts good ol boys living there.

Most southern states have "right to work" laws. These laws basically deny unions a chance to get a stakehold. If you check groceries in western states you are unionized and get a medium level wage. If you check groceries in Florida or Alabama or Louisiana you are not allowed to unionize and you are paid minimum wage.

These guns, god and guts types vote for people who close southern factories, vote for people who keep unions out of their state, vote for people who "talk to god", are anti equal rights for women, blacks and any other non white, pro gun toting, pro death penalty, anti choice. All of these they somehow manage to tie in with god and religion.

Not all southerners are like this. Also the south has a large portion of immigrants from northern and western states who are highly educated. The south has some of the best medical and scientific labs in the nation).

Being a Southerner,I am very disappointed at some of the remarks that I have seen in this thread.

Prejudice is alive and well today, it is obvious.

Some here lost respect in my eyes today. :(

It is too bad that you cannot or will not open your mind what people are actually saying.

These are not stereotypes. Most[b] is not equivalent to [b]all and an observation of something does not mean that it is a stereotype. Just as accents run to specific areas, so do ideas, beliefs, interests, etc. Most people in the south have an accent to the rest of us. That is not a stereotype. It is an observation.

Most of the people who live in the northwestern states are outdoorsy and would be eaten alive in a city like New York.

Most of the people in the northeast are city dwellers who couldn't point to the north at sunrise.

Most of the people in the south are religious and use it as a basis for their choices.

Well now, this thread was a shocker...

Prejudice is alive and well. It's not about your skin colour though it's been transferred to regionalism.

yeah, that makes it okay ...

Originally posted by Echo2
It is too bad that you cannot or will not open your mind what people are actually saying.

These are not stereotypes. Most is not equivalent to all and an observation of something does not mean that it is a stereotype. Just as accents run to specific areas, so do ideas, beliefs, interests, etc. Most people in the south have an accent to the rest of us. That is not a stereotype. It is an observation.

Most of the people in the northeast are city dwellers who couldn't point to the north at sunrise.


It's an "observation" which is used to define a group of people. California's western boarder is all ocean. In my vists to the beach, it's always been busy. From this, I can conclude that most Californians spend time at the beach. Right? Um, no.

As for most people in the Northwest being "outdoorsy" types ... I really don't think so. I lived in Washington for three years and I've got my mom's family living up there. Do you conclude that a lot of people spend time outdoors because there are a lot of trees out there? Because I mean ... :rolleyes:

You entirely missed the point. Stop thinking about negative stereotypes and think about good things and you might start to understand.

Most people in the Northeast are city dwellers.
Most people in the southwest can speak some spanish. A
Most people in the Northwest can find their way around in a forest without getting lost.
Most peole from the midwest know something about farming.
Most people from Hawaii are perfectly at home on a boat.
Most people from the great lakes area are used to very cold winters.
Most people from Utah are Mormans

When someone says that most people from the south are very religious it is a fact. That area of the united states is called the bible belt because most people from there are very religious. It is a stereotype. The word stereotypes has gaines a negative conotation but all it really means is that a large portion of some group are alike in some way.

Most white people sunburn easily. Most asians have straight hair.

Much of the thread sounded more to me like "[I]most[I] people from the south are stupid rednecks who wouldn't know how to help themselves out of a darkroom with a flashlight and a compass..."

wasn't Havok just accused of watering down his prejudice to make it acceptable? well........... how is this different?

How is it any different than all democrats being labelled unpatriotic, non-suportive of our troops, commies, and traitors.

Then, if we complain about being painted with a broad brush -- we're told to leave the country if we don't like it.

How the F is this any different than me labelling the south in some way that's distasteful to the sames ones that label me as I mentioned above?

WTF -- this is no longer a one way street.

Back on topic -- the dems are fools if they spend a dime on compaigning in the south -- they need to concentrate in areas where they have some hope of taking a state -- the south is a lost cause.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
How is it any different than all democrats being labelled unpatriotic, non-suportive of our troops, commies, and traitors.

Then, if we complain about being painted with a broad brush -- we're told to leave the country if we don't like it.

How the F is this any different than me labelling the south in some way that's distasteful to the sames ones that label me as I mentioned above?

WTF -- this is no longer a one way street.

Back on topic -- the dems are fools if they spend a dime on compaigning in the south -- they need to concentrate in areas where they have some hope of taking a state -- the south is a lost cause.

I agree, it isn't any different...

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I agree, it isn't any different...

I also agree. The labeling of people who disagree with the war is moronic, simplistic, and downright nasty. So why would anyone want to join in such behavior?

Originally posted by Echo2
You entirely missed the point. Stop thinking about negative stereotypes and think about good things and you might start to understand. The word stereotypes has gaines a negative conotation but all it really means is that a large portion of some group are alike in some way.

Most white people sunburn easily. Most asians have straight hair.

I'm not missing the point, I think you are. And good things? There's nothing good about stereotyping a whole group of people. If you honestly think there's a such thing as a good and truthful stereotype, you're mistaken.

Stereotype: all blondes are stupid. According to you, most blondes share this in commom. Really, now.

Originally posted by Embyr
Stereotype: all blondes are stupid. According to you, most blondes share this in commom. Really, now.

That may be your stereotype of blonds but it certainly isn't mine.

Main Entry: stereotype
Function: noun
: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a mental picture held to characterize the typical individual of a group —ste·reo·typ·i·cal /"ster-E-&-'tip-i-k&l/ also ste·reo·typ·ic /-ik/ adjective

You can add all the negetive connotation you want to the word, it doesn't change the fact that a stereotype is based on patturns.

To argue that people do not hand down beliefs, traditions and political persuasions from one generation to another is rediculous. And that is what you are arguing if you think that saying that most southerners are religious, isn't true.

People do hand these things down and that is what makes it reasonable to use stereotypes for physical areas of the earth.

I could say that must Arabs are muslim. Is that a stereotype? Yes. Is it negative? no. The same thing with parts of our country. I have lived in the south and have no problem stateing that most southern people are very religious.

WHat exactly is your problem with noting similarities of people by area?

Originally posted by Echo2
That may be your stereotype of blonds but it certainly isn't mine.

Main Entry: stereotype
Function: noun
: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a mental picture held to characterize the typical individual of a group —ste·reo·typ·i·cal /"ster-E-&-'tip-i-k&l/ also ste·reo·typ·ic /-ik/ adjective

You can add all the negetive connotation you want to the word, it doesn't change the fact that a stereotype is based on patturns.

To argue that people do not hand down beliefs, traditions and political persuasions from one generation to another is rediculous. And that is what you are arguing if you think that saying that most southerners are religious, isn't true.

People do hand these things down and that is what makes it reasonable to use stereotypes for physical areas of the earth.

I could say that must Arabs are muslim. Is that a stereotype? Yes. Is it negative? no. The same thing with parts of our country. I have lived in the south and have no problem stateing that most southern people are very religious.

WHat exactly is your problem with noting similarities of people by area?

First off, you're confusing culture with stereotypes. Check your definition of stereotype then reread all the examples you've given me of "stereotypes." You're describing something that is either a physical attribute (like suburning) which is determined by biology or religion (that Arabs are Muslim) which is a culture. A stereotype is a belief that people have of a group of people based on personal experience.

Also, I don't have a problem when people note that most Southerners are religious and make political decisions based on their beliefs. I have a problem when people degrade other people based on where they live or who they vote for -- which is what some were doing in the thread. I don't want people calling me a hippie because I live in California and calling me a liberal without any morals because I voted for Kerry and am a registered democrat. I respect other people's beliefs and politcal views, even if I can't stand them. As a result, I don't talk shit about people if I can help it.

Get it now?

NO, I don't/ I expect you are internalizing the issue because your last paragraph was all about what you do or do not do and that wasn't the subject.

Oh well, I guess we can agree to disagree.

Just one question. Do you the prejudice that many southerners have for blacks is cultural? Do you think that the belief that a college education is a waste of time is cultural? Do you believe that the god, guns and guts attitude is a cultural thing?

I offer my apologies to any member of the board that is a southerner and was offended by my post (up thread), especially to Dan Fussell. IIRC Dan is, like me, a vietnam vet -- (besides being a genuinly nice guy here on the forums) and for that I feel ashamed (for ridiculing another vet) -- which isn't easy to admit but it's said.

Most of you have been on allforums long enough to know I express my feelings in a way that sometimes appears to be over the top, not having any harmful intentions notwithstanding.

In reality, I don't believe every person living south of the Mason-Dixon line is a POS nor do I have a carte blanche hatred for all southerners.

OTOH, I do have a hard time rationalizing why the south backs a president that seems to spend every awake moment doing no more than scheming up ways to destroy the middle and lower classes.

The Patriot act, Social Security, Library searches, bankruptcy bill, the hatred for gays ... the list goes on and on. There seems to be no point where the south is willing to stand up and say "enough is enough -- time to back off W" but they don't. They show little concern for their american brothers and sisters by continuing to embolden an out of control administration, everything of which they do, directly affects all of us in negative ways.

Southerners claim to be driven by religion and the scriptures which they interpret to suit their own agenda. Well, most of us also have religions but we keep it at a personal level, not use it as an excuse to make america a scripture-driven country. That was not the intent of our founding fathers.

As a side note, my religion is Bon, which is more of a lifestyle than a religion and is the recoginzed religion of indigenous Tibet. We would never impose our beliefs on anyone period. That's all I ask for from other americans in return. Practice your religion but keep it to yourself.

When southerners finally wake up and starts thinking for themselves, then maybe I will once again start rooting for the Braves and lining up for grits on Sunday morning.

Again, my apologies and thanks for listening.

Originally posted by Echo2
Just one question. Do you the prejudice that many southerners have for blacks is cultural?

See, this is where the stereotype thing goes wrong. If this is true of a sizeable majority of southerners, then truly the stereotype is valid. What many people are arguing is that the stereotype is wrong.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Most of you have been on allforums long enough to know I express my feelings in a way that sometimes appears to be over the top, not having any harmful intentions notwithstanding.

That's very cool Dop.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
OTOH, I do have a hard time rationalizing why the south backs a president that seems to spend every awake moment doing no more than scheming up ways to destroy the middle and lower classes.

Just remember, like most parts of the country, the percentage that doesn't support Bush is rather sizeable.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
That's all I ask for from other americans in return. Practice your religion but keep it to yourself.

Amen to that.

Originally posted by Echo2
NO, I don't/ I expect you are internalizing the issue because your last paragraph was all about what you do or do not do and that wasn't the subject.

As this is a forum where people express their opinions, do you expect me to talk about things I don't have feelings for? That I don't feel passionate about? You seem to have a problem understanding what I'm saying so I used myself as an example so you could understand. It seems my attempt to make things clear didn't succeed.

Originally posted by Echo2
Do you the prejudice that many southerners have for blacks is cultural? Do you think that the belief that a college education is a waste of time is cultural? Do you believe that the god, guns and guts attitude is a cultural thing?

Yes, I believe that the ongoing prejudice prevelent in the Southern states, and that the God, guns, and guts attitude is a part of Southern culture. Culture, according to Merriam Dictionary, is "the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon [an individual's] capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations." The South has always been slightly detached from the rest of the nation when it comes to social issues, and the ideals which keep the South from matching the pro-social tolerance of the rest of the country is due to children being socialized by adults who don't wish to abandon what their parents taught them. The same thing happens in states like California, where people seem more "liberal" and "accepting" because they're being socialized by more tolerant people.

As for the significance of college education, I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not aware of an anti-college attitude in the South (just anti-evolution) or anywhere else for that matter. So I'd have to say that it's probably a mixture of personal preference and what kind of lifestyle an individual is raised in (say, family business). Maybe if you rephrase the question for me or explain it, I might be able to offer a more clear opinion.

Originally posted by Embyr
If you honestly think there's a such thing as a good and truthful stereotype, you're mistaken.

Evidently, you have a very poor grasp of the word *stereotype*.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Evidently, you have a very poor grasp of the word *stereotype*.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Hit me with one that is a fact and true. I don't mind being wrong, but at least provide something to show I might be mistaken.

Originally posted by Embyr
Perhaps, perhaps not. Hit me with one that is a fact and true.

If given a choice between a piece of lettuce and a pork chop, the average dog will choose the pork chop.

If asked whether Jehovah or Satan is better, Southerners in general will choose Jehovah.

FT - I don't think she understands the nuance of the word. SHe is still stuck in the whole negative connotaion thing.

Main Entry: stereotype
Function: noun
: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a mental picture held to characterize the typical individual of a group —ste·reo·typ·i·cal / also ste·reo·typ·ic /-ik/ adjective

The statement "women are beautiful" is a stereotype. Many men would agree with it. However we all know that not all women are beautiful. It is not a negative stereotype.

Westerners are mostly liberal. True, but we all know that not ALL westerners vote liberally. That doesn't make the stereotype wrong. And it isn't a negative thing, it is a statement based on a stereotype that has been proven to be true at just about every election in the west for the last 100 years.

LOL, yes, compared to the Taliban most westerners do vote liberally, that doesnt mean we are all kooky "bush lied people died" left of Stalin radicals

Trav - no one ever said it did. People take what they want from statements and if they are radicals they will take a statement and turn it into an exageration that feeds their agenda. Just like you did in the above post.

Westerners are mostly libera;l - says nothing about what is condidered right of liberal or left of liberal or middle road liberal. It is a completely open statement that judges no one in particular and makes no distinction between the wackjok liberals and the middle of the road liberals.