i was thinking about the sweat shop idea, and how people in our country get mad at the US for using products produced in sweat shops, how we are exploiting these poor people in these poor countries. At the same time, if we were to demand these countries pay their employees more money we wold be seen as forcing our ideals and beliefs down their throat. What right do we have to tell them what a good wage is? if we should believe the iraiqs maybe didnt want freedom, why should we believe the workers want to make more money? I guess all that is left is to boycott the products and let the people lose the only job they have and all starve to death. In the end we will all be able to sleep at night knowing we did the right thing by not buying sweat shop produced items, becasue thats all thats important in life, feeling good about ourselves

I agree.

The sweatshop workers have to start somewhere. Don't worry they will be listening to iPods soon enough. The more Americanized developing nations get the closer their way of life will be to ours (some of the reason will be a declining standard of living for Americans).

People often ignore that sweatshops run by multinational companies provide jobs and money that would not have been there otherwise. Given the choice between working in a shitty sweatshop and starving, most people would choose the former.

Unlike America, many countries do not have social programs for their citizens to milk and live off of. So any job is the only source of income.

I absolutely think sweat shop workers should be paid what Americans would be paid for the same job. Of course that will result in it being cheaper to produce those goods in America than overseas, and then they'll have no jobs. But they'll starve to death knowing that they could theoretically get paid the same as an American.

Originally posted by Travh20
i was thinking about the sweat shop idea, and how people in our country get mad at the US for using products produced in sweat shops, how we are exploiting these poor people in these poor countries. At the same time, if we were to demand these countries pay their employees more money we wold be seen as forcing our ideals and beliefs down their throat. What right do we have to tell them what a good wage is? if we should believe the iraiqs maybe didnt want freedom, why should we believe the workers want to make more money? I guess all that is left is to boycott the products and let the people lose the only job they have and all starve to death. In the end we will all be able to sleep at night knowing we did the right thing by not buying sweat shop produced items, becasue thats all thats important in life, feeling good about ourselves

Well that is one way to look at it.

Let's say I make denim pants: I go offshore and give these poor people a job so they won't starve to death.

At the same time, I deny a job to a fellow countryman.

I make huge, huge profits by only paying them a tiny portion of what someone in my country would expect. In fact they really can't feed themselves or their family on it, but it does give them just enough energy to come to work for me everyday.

Everyday means seven days a week because they have no labour laws. Hell who needs leisure time off-shore. If they are hungry they will work dammit.

Hours of work...hell max them out. Let them earn a few pennies more if they are so hungry. It's an opportunity you know. I am a budding Mother Theresa here giving them this opportunity.

Then, I bring my goods back here and sell them. I can give you a better price because my expenses are bare minimum.

Buy from me...oh, and lose your own job in the manufacturing industry because hell, YOUR employer can't compete. But screw you, this is capitalism at its finest.

Mean time, I am as rich as Croesus, and a humanitarian in your eyes too. Works for me. :D

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Well that is one way to look at it.

Let's say I make denim pants: I go offshore and give these poor people a job so they won't starve to death.

At the same time, I deny a job to a fellow countryman.

I make huge, huge profits by only paying them a tiny portion of what someone in my country would expect. In fact they really can't feed themselves or their family on it, but it does give them just enough energy to come to work for me everyday.

Everyday means seven days a week because they have no labour laws. Hell who needs leisure time off-shore. If they are hungry they will work dammit.

Hours of work...hell max them out. Let them earn a few pennies more if they are so hungry. It's an opportunity you know. I am a budding Mother Theresa here giving them this opportunity.

Then, I bring my goods back here and sell them. I can give you a better price because my expenses are bare minimum.

Buy from me...oh, and lose your own job in the manufacturing industry because hell, YOUR employer can't compete. But screw you, this is capitalism at its finest.

Mean time, I am as rich as Croesus, and a humanitarian in your eyes too. Works for me. :D


damn good show sal damn good.

Good job Sal.

Trav and jester- just because multinational corporations got US laws written in their favor which makes it far more profitable to exploit poor people in poor countries where the government provides no worker protection does not mean these corporations are somehow doing them a service.

This is why people who actually give a damn about their fellow human beings are willing to pay just a little bit more to ensure a living wage is provided to workers.

Its called fair trade.

http://fairtraderesource.org/index.html

Trav - Youre statements are childish and ignorant. I guess we can only hope idiocy isn't contagous over the internet.

A good wage - is at the very minimum a livable wage.
Iraqis want real freedom, not another murderous US puppet dictator. And if you Ever came up with a novel and coherent idea on morality Ill be the first to kill myself in disbelief.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Good job Sal.

Trav and jester- just because multinational corporations got US laws written in their favor which makes it far more profitable to exploit poor people in poor countries where the government provides no worker protection does not mean these corporations are somehow doing them a service.

This is why people who actually give a damn about their fellow human beings are willing to pay just a little bit more to ensure a living wage is provided to workers.

Its called fair trade. Absolutely. But it should be regulated, not eliminated.

Originally posted by Travh20
What right do we have to tell them what a good wage is?

If were the ones buying their products, then we have the right to demand that people get paid a fair wage.

if we should believe the iraiqs maybe didnt want freedom, why should we believe the workers want to make more money?

Many in Iraq do want freedom. That's why they hated Saddam Hussein so much. The workser who are paid poverty wages do want to live better and be able to provide better for their children. They put up with it because they have no choice and there is no labor laws to protect them.

I guess all that is left is to boycott the products and let the people lose the only job they have and all starve to death. In the end we will all be able to sleep at night knowing we did the right thing by not buying sweat shop produced items, becasue thats all thats important in life, feeling good about ourselves [/B]

If people banned together and refused to buy products made from these companies, until these companies agrred to pay people decent wages it wouldn't take long before they would comply. For example, if people refused to but Nike who deals in sweat shop labor, until Nike agreed to pay these people a more fair wage and improve working conditions, as soon as Nike saw loss of business, they would comply to pay the workser a bit better.

I have no problem with the idea that we should pay a foreign worker a "fair wage" or a "living wage", but it's possible to ruin the local economy if suddenly the people working for your company make ten times what any of the other locals do.

Worldwide minimum wage laws?

I think there are three differerent issues here :
- lower wages in third world countries.
- working conditions and exploitation (what we call "sweat shops").
- competition with western industry.

Every factory in third world countries is not a sweat shop. Of course, by our western standards, wages and social rights are far from perfect, but in many cases factories have relatively decent working conditions, at least compared to local life conditions. They still produce goods at a much cheaper cost than ours.

Personally, I believe it may be an opportunity for these developing countries and that locally people benefit from theses jobs, while we benefit from lower cost goods. And that western countries still are competitive in many areas, even in some industrial activities.

On the other hand, sweat shops do exist. Places where people are really badly exploited, where they are slaves rather than workers and have aboslutely no chance of having a better future. These places should be banned by international laws and fought by western consumers.
It's the consumers pressure on companies like Nike that made them vigilant about sweat shops. Most major textile companies now are aware that using sweat shops may be very bad for their image and try to control their providers.

So we should keep the pressure on them to make sure they really adopt at least a basic social policy.

And we should make sure that our political leaders try to set basic social rights in international laws.

I don't think a worldwide minimum wage is realistic or even positive, since local economic conditions are very different. But at least basic rights (setting minimum worker age, maximum working time, safety rules, health and retirement insurance, trade unions).

I agree with you astropol, but again, much of the argument agasint establishing a democracy in Iraq is that the people do not want it, and that by trying to improve their lives we are telling them what to think and how to live. Some people (overdose) even tell us they dont want freedom. So if we cant even assume they would want something like freedom, which is a god given right, what right do we have to assume they dont enjoy working in sweat shops? how do we know they want to be treated better? maybe their culture tells them that's just how it is? I know it sounds stupid to argue that they probalby want to be exploited and work like slaves, but it is nop more stupid then arguing that poeple were happy under saddam and preffered his rule.

Originally posted by Travh20
So if we cant even assume they would want something like freedom, which is a god given right, what right do we have to assume they dont enjoy working in sweat shops? how do we know they want to be treated better? maybe their culture tells them that's just how it is? I know it sounds stupid to argue that they probalby want to be exploited and work like slaves, but it is nop more stupid then arguing that poeple were happy under saddam and preffered his rule.


I too opposed war in Iraq, and I still think it was a mistake, but that is not the issue of this thread. My belief is that things like freedom should not be imposed by alien nations using tanks and cruise missiles. That does not mean I think iraqi people do not want freedom.

I don't argue that people were happy under Sadam. I beleive that people all want and deserve freedom, and most of all decent life conditions. To say cultural differences make people dislike democracy or like to work in sweatshop is total nonsense.
I'm sure you agree with that, Travh.


BTW sweatshops ae not (as far as I know) a problem in Iraq ; they are usually located in Asia or latin America.

Originally posted by astrapol2
BTW sweatshops ae not (as far as I know) a problem in Iraq ; they are usually located in Asia or latin America.

They have also been found onshore where people exploit illegal aliens. It is likely more prevalent than we know.

I do agree with you. I can say with absolute certainty tahte very human on the earth desires freedom and a good life. the only ones who say other wise are dictators, those who benefit from dictators,a dn those looking for reasons to oppose the US war in Iraq

Originally posted by Travh20
So if we cant even assume they would want something like freedom, which is a god given right, what right do we have to assume they dont enjoy working in sweat shops? how do we know they want to be treated better? maybe their culture tells them that's just how it is? I know it sounds stupid to argue that they probalby want to be exploited and work like slaves, but it is nop more stupid then arguing that poeple were happy under saddam and preffered his rule.

Trav has a point here. First we are assuming that freedom is a god given right. Who are we to tell people what rights they should be given by OUR god? Shouldn't they be deciding what rights they are given by THEIR god? Their culture, which very much is set by their religious beliefs is not for us to change or destroy. I know that this country would be up in arms if another culture came in here and told us that we it was wrong to impress young minds with religious teachings and that children had a "god given right" to be free from being taught religion untill they were 18?

The Muslim religion is not based on equality of the sexes or "freedom for all". We have no right to force our western ideals on a people who do not understand or want them.

Sorry this is off subject.

that post be echo is exactly what I was talking about. going by that logic, we should have just let the nazis exterminate the jews. it was their culture, who are we to get in he way of their culutre? same as sweat shops, if their culuture says its OK to exploit the workers and treat them like slaves, we really ahve no right to demand anything different. we wouldnt want to be seen forcing our evil chrisitan ideals of equality on them

Trav has a point here. First we are assuming that freedom is a god given right. Who are we to tell people what rights they should be given by OUR god? Shouldn't they be deciding what rights they are given by THEIR god? Their culture, which very much is set by their religious beliefs is not for us to change or destroy. I know that this country would be up in arms if another culture came in here and told us that we it was wrong to impress young minds with religious teachings and that children had a "god given right" to be free from being taught religion untill they were 18?
The power of a government "... is limited to the public good of the society. It is a power that hath no other end but preservation, and therefore can never have a right to destroy, enslave, or designedly to impoverish the subjects... To this end it is that men give up all their natural power to the society they enter into, and the community put the legislative power into such hands as they think fit, with this trust, that they shall be governed by declared laws, or else their peace, quiet, and property will still be at the same uncertainty as it was in the state of Nature." (Second Treatise, Ch. 11.)
To understand political power aright, and derive from it its original, we must consider what estate all men are naturally in, and that is, a state of perfect freedom to order their actions, and dispose of their possessions and persons as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of Nature, without asking leave or depending upon the will of any other man.(Second Treatise of Civil Government, ch. 11,4)
- John Locke

Deny the nature of governing bodies. Scream till your mouth spews blood, plug your ears till they peirce your brain. Dictatorship protected on "cultural" grounds is one of the most retarded arguments a person can make. Who created that culture? Surely not the dictators :rolleyes:

welcome to the enlightened age of out of control tolerance blib, check your conscience at the door

You're insane Echo. I suppose if you were born in myanmar you'd be a happy little slave right?

Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.
--Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762

BTW sweatshops ae not (as far as I know) a problem in Iraq They will be soon. Unemployment is still ridiculously high (65%+) and the US (Bremer) imposed 100 laws in Iraq to try and make it a "free trade utopia." Hence foreign companies dont have to hire Iraqis. Foreign ownership is unregulated. etc etc

From the BBC:
http://rockyhill.dems.info/BBCWhattheUShasdoneinIraq.htm

I don't think imposing a world wide minimum wage would be positive at all. First of all there is no worldwide stadard of living. secondly it would be impossible to regulate.

The solution as I see it is that any company who wants to sell products in the US should have to disclose and open their factories to international inspectors who can make surprise visits. A report on the conditions of workers for various companies. Let the consumer decide. The only problem is that companies are able to hide their dirty secrets where consumers can't see them.

Adbusters has an awesome open-business model it is using to sell its sneakers. They even list how much everything costs and what their profit is. They did this because converse went bankrupt and was bought out by nike, who subsequently moved the factory overseas and now uses sweatshop/slave labor.
http://adbusters.org/metas/corpo/blackspotsneaker/shoeinfo.html
(can't find the cost list right now)
I really want a pair of V2s but can't fathom buying shoes without trying them on.

Sorry, I forgot to mention US territories.

One little trick companies use, that the US provides to them, is territories. They aren't regulated by US labor laws yet the label can still say "made in the US". Guam, peurto rico and others are good examples.

The WTO also makes such wacky rules. Under trade/borrowing agreements the US can annex a port in Jamaica (suppossedly to 'help' Jamaica pay off its debts) and consider it a US territory for production purposes. Theres a really good documentry about it called Life and Debt

Dear Sirs and Ladies,

Sweat shops are not a good beginning for employment. We know they are dangerous and cause early death. Sweat shops are not a laughing matter. They shorten life.
They kill for the almighty dollar. Dont take the sweat shop lightly. Ever.

Originally posted by Saintte


Sweat shops are not a good beginning for employment.

Of course we call them sweatshops because the pay is low by western standards, but the treatment of employees isn't universally bad - I'm sure it varies widely from great to human rights violation.

Originally posted by Saintte
Dear Sirs and Ladies,

Sweat shops are not a good beginning for employment. We know they are dangerous and cause early death. Sweat shops are not a laughing matter. They shorten life.
They kill for the almighty dollar. Dont take the sweat shop lightly. Ever.


they can also CREATE a anti-government, anti- corporation terrorist.