ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

1. REALIZE THAT YOU ARE A SINNER AND IN NEED OF A SAVIOR:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

2. BECAUSE OF OUR SINS, WE DIE BOTH SPIRITUALLY AND PHYSICALLY, BUT GOD SENT HIS SON TO TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT AND GIVE US A CHANCE NOT TO HAVE TO GO TO HELL.

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

3. WE MUST CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOR WITH OUR MOUTHS AND BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD, BY DOING THIS WE ARE RECEIVING HIM:

Ro 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
(KJV)

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus and asking Him to Save you. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS? DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT HE DID FOR YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR SINS?

4. If you are willing to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior please pray this from your heart to God,

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that YOU died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I realize that I cannot get to heaven any other way other than to trust YOU as my SAVIOR. I ask you to forgive me for my sins and take me to heaven when I die. I receive YOU as my Lord and SAVIOR. Thank You for Saving me in JESUS name amen"

If you prayed that prayer from your heart to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.

I'm 100% sure of one thing - that you are crazy :)

Welcome to AllForums - stick around and explain more about your convictions.

Welcome to all forums frodo.

I'm afraid your post contains some contradictions and other problems.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. If Adam & Eve knew not of good and evil, how did they know it was wrong to disobey your god? Also, if there was no sin then, how did they disobey your god? Perhaps to disobey the god you believe in is not a sin. Please clarify.
Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die. Assuming, of course, that your particular brand of religion is the correct one. You have about 30000 competitor religions, frodo. But at least you can be 0.0001% sure.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
If you prayed that prayer from your heart to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.Are you a calvanist?

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism. What's the point? I'm already on my way to heaven. You said all I need do is say that prayer.

It also seems very shallow that your faith promises a never-ending holiday in paradise when you die. It seems to be a "what's in it for me?" type of approach.

Oy vey. Another one.

Oh no. Someone talking about his religion on the Religion Thread? Another one?

Welcome xfro, most of us have already been told we are going to hell.
That Jesus is the only way.
That the Devil is the source of all bad.
That God is the source of all good.
That the only true religion is the one the poster believes in.
Heavens streets are literally paved with gold.
Gays are sinners.
Abortion is murder.
We are born in sin.
There will be singing in heaven.
Every word in the Bible is true.

Feel free to add anything you would like to.

Oh yes, especially feel free to add any new information that is not using the Bible as the only reference as to the validity of the statement.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Welcome xfro, please read all previous "threats" so as not to repeat,repeat,repeat,repeat

xfro, Dan's a good guy. He didn't mean it.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Oy vey. Another one.

Someones not going to suck up and agree to your every word? This is truly a travesty:(

Another thing.

What is it with religious enthusiasts and caps lock?

Is the 11th commandment "thou shalt preach in upper case" or something?

A magical sky fairy? Wow, and I thought Tinkerbell was awesome! Does your sky fairy have a wand and fairy dust too? Cause that is really neat. And can he fly around leaving sparkles in his wake?

If all he can do is threaten people who don't grovel in submission to him then he doesn't sound like a very nice fairy.

Originally posted by Echo2
A magical sky fairy? Wow, and I thought Tinkerbell was awesome! Does your sky fairy have a wand and fairy dust too? Cause that is really neat. And can he fly around leaving sparkles in his wake?

If all he can do is threaten people who don't grovel in submission to him then he doesn't sound like a very nice fairy.

Comeon!! You used that same paragraph when I joined.

The sky fairy crap is just redicious and so overused. Hey...and on a personal note. Tinkerbell IS awseome. Peter Pan wouldnt have been the same with out, and neighter would the Walt Disney logo.

Peter Pan is now banned in Alabama

#1) Tinkerbell
#2) Peter

Maybe Peter Pan is gay like that square pants character. Which would make him evil and godless and a menace to society. Lets ban all movies and books about the Peter Pan character. We don't want our kids turing into "godless fagots".

Listen...I think stuff like that is just as crazy as you. I dont wish for people that crazy to represent christians in general.

Originally posted by Tapeworm
Peter Pan is now banned in Alabama You're bloody joking?

What does banned mean? Not shown at the cinemas; not sold on dvd; not allowed to be watched privately at home?

Originally posted by Brooks
xfro, Dan's a good guy. He didn't mean it.
-------------------------------------

Brooks, sorry I had deleted my first response before I knew you responded.

The original had a mis-spelling (threads) was intended not (threats).

I doubt that guy will post again - he's probably one of those float around and spread the news type of freaks. You know the type that God is embarrased about.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
-------------------------------------

Brooks, sorry I had deleted my first response before I knew you responded.

The original had a mis-spelling (threads) was intended not (threats).

I was joking, but I can't bring myself to put one of those smilies after my post.

Originally posted by DrewM
I doubt that guy will post again - he's probably one of those float around and spread the news type of freaks. You know the type that God is embarrased about.

Nope, I'm still here. So, it sounds to me like you have had this discussion on here before. What is it that is holding you back from trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior? Yes, I am a Calvinist. I am a fundamental believer. Don't bonbard me with questions all at once. I don't have the time to answer all questions right away, but will do my best to answer them for you as it is possible. Please only ask questions if you truly are willing to be open to the possibility that the bible is the word of God. I don't want meaningless debate, just sincere questions. Also, remember that I am not God and may not know everything, as He does. I will do my best to answer them, but again, I cannot answer 100 questions at once.

Originally posted by Echo2
We don't want our kids turing into "godless fagots".
I guess this is your Guerilla-lite moment when you parody conservatives by using phrases most of us would never utter. If you're comfortable saying that, more power to you.

Originally posted by Brooks
I was joking, but I can't bring myself to put one of those smilies after my post. I understand. Smilies are sachrine hideous things.

But relunctantly I do use them. There are times I am joking and it might not be clear otherwise.

I find your posts very witty and they often make my smile. But remember when I got all righteous because you joked about hell? If you'd put a wink or something I would have known better.

You, Brooks, also have a flair for making a point humorously without being offensive; you laugh with other posters, not at them. I know smilies are no substitute for non-verbal communication such as a knowing glint in the eye. But sadly they are all we have here. The ;) isn't so bad, and says "I'm being tongue in cheek" for clarity..

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
Nope, I'm still here. So, it sounds to me like you have had this discussion on here before. What is it that is holding you back from trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior? Yes, I am a Calvinist. I am a fundamental believer. Don't bonbard me with questions all at once. I don't have the time to answer all questions right away, but will do my best to answer them for you as it is possible. Please only ask questions if you truly are willing to be open to the possibility that the bible is the word of God. I don't want meaningless debate, just sincere questions. Also, remember that I am not God and may not know everything, as He does. I will do my best to answer them, but again, I cannot answer 100 questions at once.

Well glad to see you are still here.

Here's my question - Why do you believe what you believe? Do you believe everybody who doesn't have your beliefs is going to burn in hell?

There are many obvious reasons why one would be held back from "trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior" - the main question is why do you? In your post you seem to sound suprised that people would be "held back" - why does that suprise you? Do you imagine that simply saying something is so makes it an obvious thing? It's far from obvious, but it is obvious that many people simply long to believe in something.

Ah crap, I'm going to a place I don't believe in{hell} because I won't believe in another place or person{heaven and Jesus}. So should I believe in the place I'm going to or should I believe in the other and save myself from my disbelieve? If I try to believe in this does it make my belief true or is it just a false belief that I will be happy in believing? If I die and find out my belief was wrong was it worth believing in, in the 1st place. :confused:

Please only ask questions if you truly are willing to be open to the possibility that the bible is the word of God. I don't want meaningless debate, just sincere questions.Hmmm... that's a good idea. I think I'll do that too.

From now on, everyone, please only respond to my posts on the assumption I am correct. No more challenging me or pointing out my mistakes please.

Also, remember that I am not God and may not know everything, as He does. I will do my best to answer them, but again, I cannot answer 100 questions at once.Another good idea. That goes for me too.

Everyone, if ever I can't answer a question or make sense of your argument then please be clear that I am still totally correct.

Originally posted by Blob
Hmmm... that's a good idea. I think I'll do that too.

From now on, everyone, please only respond to my posts on the assumption I am correct. No more challenging me or pointing out my mistakes please.

Another good idea. That goes for me too.

Everyone, if ever I can't answer a question or make sense of your argument then please be clear that I am still totally correct.

You hit the nail on the head Blob. "I am right even if I can't explain my point of view or back it up with facts".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
Please only ask questions if you truly are willing to be open to the possibility that the bible is the word of God.
------------------------------------------------------------

O.k., if you are open to the possibility that the Bible is not the word of God.
Only a words of wisdom book written by men and men only.

I am going to start a thread called "What Jesus Christ did for me". In it, I will share with you my personal experience of what my relationship with God has been. It is a very real thing that anyone who is a Christian experiences.

ok sounds good

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
Nope, I'm still here. So, it sounds to me like you have had this discussion on here before. What is it that is holding you back from trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior? Yes, I am a Calvinist. I am a fundamental believer. Don't bonbard me with questions all at once. I don't have the time to answer all questions right away, but will do my best to answer them for you as it is possible. Please only ask questions if you truly are willing to be open to the possibility that the bible is the word of God. I don't want meaningless debate, just sincere questions. Also, remember that I am not God and may not know everything, as He does. I will do my best to answer them, but again, I cannot answer 100 questions at once.

see, this is the jesus crispies i've been talking about. if this guy was on the street, he'd be the one following you around everyday trying to "save" your soul.

Yeah Frodo. How dare you talk about religion in the religion section. You should be stoned or fed to the lions for such an outrage. All christians have their place, its just the believe in nothing's havent decided where that place is yet. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by HaVoK
Yeah Frodo. How dare you talk about religion in the religion section. You should be stoned or fed to the lions for such an outrage. All christians have their place, its just the believe in nothing's havent decided where that place is yet. :rolleyes:

knock knock dumbass. i'm an animist. i believe in an afterlife, spirits but i don't believe in god. and i ain't out to shove my faith down others throats like a crispy thinks they have to do. must be the more souls ya get under yer belt a better place in god's heaven you get.

Ivan mate i wouldnt bother, Havok has decided that rather than actually debate the issue he will instead attack comments by others against this Christian fundie.

In his obvious wisdom, he feels that he needs to take a protective stance so as to make sure this poor christian to whom has not yet found his footing, wont be harmed whilst he stays here.

He attempts this by making sarcastic comments to yours, mine and anyone else who makes obvious that this guy is undebatable. Whilst at the exact same time failing to dispute actually why our claims are falsified.

We can but "pray" they will return to the Politics section to which they are have come from, and stop trying to be Hero's. Afterall, these kinds of people clearly dont require saving. Gods already offered that :)

Well put, loki.

While I actually sympathise with people getting bored of the screechy atheists on this forum (me too - it has been a problem of late) it doesn't mean every post by every theist should go unchallenged. Neither would most of the theists here have it that way.

One thing I've learnt at allforums.net is that there is no connection between how reasonable someone is and their stated beliefs.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Ivan mate i wouldnt bother, Havok has decided that rather than actually debate the issue he will instead attack comments by others against this Christian fundie.

In his obvious wisdom, he feels that he needs to take a protective stance so as to make sure this poor christian to whom has not yet found his footing, wont be harmed whilst he stays here.

He attempts this by making sarcastic comments to yours, mine and anyone else who makes obvious that this guy is undebatable. Whilst at the exact same time failing to dispute actually why our claims are falsified.

We can but "pray" they will return to the Politics section to which they are have come from, and stop trying to be Hero's. Afterall, these kinds of people clearly dont require saving. Gods already offered that :)


see, this is the jesus crispies i've been talking about. if this guy was on the street, he'd be the one following you around everyday trying to "save" your soul. -Ivan

Ivan had this to say after frodo basically explained his beliefs and offered to have a debate on what he said about these beliefs. He (Ivan) wanted no part of debating, just wanted to slam frodo for being "one of those". But you have to run your fool mouth in support of some idiot that happens to believe in nothing also.

As far as "protecting" another christian, you're way off base. Im a very poor christian because I dont care about anyone in this world that is not related to me. Im just as likely to slam frodo for trying to preach as anyone else on this board. Ask Jerejere. But frodo wasnt doing that. He/she was only trying to share ideas.


I agree that not every idea by a believer should go unchallenged, but there are ways to get your point across without accusing someone of being "one of those types" before they have made their 3rd post.

Oh c'mon, when you read this guy's initial post, you didn't think "oh another one"?!?! He doesn't have to get to his third post to paint himself in that corner...........we ALL were thinking it....yada yada heard it read it whatever.......Now if this guy was a raving buddist, or hare krishna or something, at least we might have sat up in our seats, cause at least it would be something NEW around here heheheh.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
- Because without God, as it is being proven daily, this country is a cesspool.It's got to be said. The pledge does indeed contain "under god" so the disastrous consequences of excluding it aren't being proven daily.

(Just being a smart arse to fuck with your mind)

Originally posted by ivan
knock knock dumbass. i'm an animist. i believe in an afterlife, spirits but i don't believe in god. and i ain't out to shove my faith down others throats like a crispy thinks they have to do. must be the more souls ya get under yer belt a better place in god's heaven you get.

since when did frodo "shove" his faith down your throat? Geez, talk about judging someone pre-emptively....

Originally posted by HaVoK
As far as "protecting" another christian, you're way off base. Im a very poor christian because I dont care about anyone in this world that is not related to me.

Sucks to be your freind then.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Sucks to be your freind then. Maybe, but no one who knows me has to wonder whether i treat them any differently than any other person.

Originally posted by Blob
It's got to be said. The pledge does indeed contain "under god" so the disastrous consequences of excluding it aren't being proven daily.

(Just being a smart arse to fuck with your mind) I was referring to my country as a whole in the "without God" comment. Not just the pledge. Kind of a social comment on the sorry state of affairs that is my country.

You've got the ass part down, now just work on the smart. :)

Originally posted by creetwins
Oh c'mon, when you read this guy's initial post, you didn't think "oh another one"?!?! He doesn't have to get to his third post to paint himself in that corner...........we ALL were thinking it....yada yada heard it read it whatever.......Now if this guy was a raving buddist, or hare krishna or something, at least we might have sat up in our seats, cause at least it would be something NEW around here heheheh. Right, its the old "I have more tolerance for any belief other than Chrisitianity" deal. I understand that one because it's so prevelant these days.

I didnt think "oh another one". I simply read his post, decided i had nothing to say to or about him, and went on to other topics. When i came back to read other people's comments is when i had something to say because i thought it unfair to immediately jump to conclusions without at least trying to debate him. When dealing with people who have other beliefs than is christian, such as yourself, a christian is always guilty until proven innocent of being "one of those".

Havok has hit the nail right on the head. Are you a Christian? You sure do know how it is for Christians. Good observation.

Decka, HaVoC, Frodo. Put your notions of prejudices against christians out of your minds, and let's remind ourselves of how bad the first post in this thread actually was.
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

1. REALIZE THAT YOU ARE A SINNER AND IN NEED OF A SAVIOR:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

2. BECAUSE OF OUR SINS, WE DIE BOTH SPIRITUALLY AND PHYSICALLY, BUT GOD SENT HIS SON TO TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT AND GIVE US A CHANCE NOT TO HAVE TO GO TO HELL.

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

3. WE MUST CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOR WITH OUR MOUTHS AND BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD, BY DOING THIS WE ARE RECEIVING HIM:

Ro 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
(KJV)

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus and asking Him to Save you. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS? DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT HE DID FOR YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR SINS?

4. If you are willing to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior please pray this from your heart to God,

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that YOU died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I realize that I cannot get to heaven any other way other than to trust YOU as my SAVIOR. I ask you to forgive me for my sins and take me to heaven when I die. I receive YOU as my Lord and SAVIOR. Thank You for Saving me in JESUS name amen"

If you prayed that prayer from your heart to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.It screams in caps lock "I'm right, and become like me, OR SUFFER!!!". It's abysmal; it's boring; we've all seen it a squillion times before; it also does not invite debate; nor is interested in other's opinions; it makes no construtive contribution to the forum.

I don't care that it is christian or not. I have been complaining about a lot of atheist posts recently too.

In fact why is it that if someone labels themselves christian they are allowed to post what ever bulshit they want?

Frodo's post was rubbish. And that's that.

Originally posted by Blob
Frodo's post was rubbish. And that's that.

Amen.

Apparently we have someone here who wants open debate but only from those to whom will eventually side with him. Sounds like something a president would do running up to election.

Its things like -

If you prayed that prayer from your heart to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Arnt we all children of God to start with? According to Frodo ignorance of ones 'true celestial' father means having no 'Father at all', and if he is not our father through that rather skewed logic then why be punished at all.

Ok...i guess I should be more specific. I simply say to debate him instead of telling him what lowly form of life he is.

Blob, you are a very well spoken/written fellow. Im sure you could have debated this issue and explained why you were offended without all the sarcasm. Maybe frodo didnt realize how powerful his words really were and how people take them.

Loki, same for you. I have seen you make some very well thought out posts without resorting to attacking.

Ivan, you're a lost cause.

Havok i understand your point however.

Blob spends a great deal of time debating with Stark and on quite a few points no matter how much energy and simplistic meanings he gives to things to make it obvious, Stark refuses to accept certain points and back down.

Now imagine that someone to whom has not shown an ounce of that kind of debater knowledge in their first and second post and not only that, but has demostrated a tendancy to act like another certain christian fundie on this site to whom has proven impossible to debate with before.

All people are different granted, but this person has made it clear he is stuck within his faith, nothing will change that, and that he would like some people to give over to God for him.

Why cant we have someone come on these forums and say "Hi, im new here and am interested in religion, im not sure which religion would best suit my needs, but i feel a spiritual connection and want to fulfill that"

I think id weep at the openess of that person lol and there ability to look at everything and then make a decision. somebody who wants knowledge.

Frodo, I'm sorry to say this, but it's not like we haven't heard this before. You sound like one of those pamphlets that evangelicals hand out on street corners. Please say something original, and there is no need to treat us like children or barbarians who have never heard the "Good News" before. Also, quoting bible verses to prove the bible correct is not actual logic and it's not going to fool anyone. I barely even know where to start on your "Now, you can be 100% sure of going to heaven when you die!" statement. Do you really believe that any atheist or muslim or jew on this board is going to look at that statement and be like, "Oh my God! I've had it wrong all my life and now I will change and accept Jesus because XFRODOBAGGINSX is guaranteeing me a spot in heaven!" Seriously!

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

Yup, and it's without the four stipulations below your question. :D

First of all, I am not assuring you a spot in heaven, God is. I am quoting His book. His perfect, infallable word. Maybe we need to start there. How many here believe that the bible is the word of God? If not, why not?

no see your getting this the wrong way round, Since your the one claiming its the word of God in that book, YOUR the one who has to prove it.

My own views on it not being the word of God stem from

a) its written by humans
b) it contradicts itsself more times than any other book i know.
c) it has been rewritten enough times to have lost the actual meaning of what was first written
d) its translated from a language that has forced lingusitic leaps of faith in reference to certain words and meanings.

and finally

e) it doesnt automatically turn anyone who reads it.

Can i also point out that you havent done any favours for yourself with that above statement. Anytime you refuse to back up your claims with "I didnt say it God did, ask him" you will get the piss ripped out of.

Hopefully those that rushed to your aid will now see what we were all going on about before hand,

The god you believe in as author of the bible is one option.

As loki points out, men as author is another.

It could be either one. Personally I think men is the more reasonable option. Afterall men do write books, and sometimes claim the book is the word of a creator-entity (e.g. consider the koran). Also the bible is dreary, fallacious, culture specific, open to different interpretations and self-contradictory - which sounds more like the work of fallible men than a perfect, infallible deity.

That said, there are others here who, like you, consider a supernatural author the most likely. For a balance of opinion see this thread (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10993)

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
First of all, I am not assuring you a spot in heaven, God is. I am quoting His book. His perfect, infallable word. Maybe we need to start there. How many here believe that the bible is the word of God? If not, why not?
-----------------------------------------------------

No, I do not believe that the Bible is the infallable word of God.
Why should I?????

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
His perfect, infallable word.
I'd love to see proof of that...
How many here believe that the bible is the word of God? If not, why not?
I don't, because no one has proved that A) the Bible was written by anyone other than a handful of men, or B) that the Bible is perfect. I've seen plenty of contradictions and such in the Bible. How can the Bible be perfect and infalliable if it contradicts both itself and reality?

The Bible is the word of man. This is entirely factual.

Now, if you choose you can say those men were inspired by God. That is a different statement. An opinion that cannot be disputed either way.

But, the fact that cannot be disputed - The Bible was written by men.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
How many here believe that the bible is the word of God? If not, why not?

Lack of evidence.

It seems like some thoughts are:

The Bible must be true, why else would so many around me believe it to be so?

There must be a Devil, why else would those around me believe in him?

Jesus must be the only way, why else would so many believe?


If one man and only one man knew the truth and spoke of it he would surely be branded a madman. The security of numbers seems to be a reinforcement of belief, for proof seems to be in the eye of the beholder.

A saturation of hear-say can become a self-fulfilling prophesy in the imagination.

The bible was written by God through 40 men in 3 languages over a 1,500 year period. These men lived in different parts of the world, some were rich, some were poor, some were educated, some were not, most didn't know each other, nor did they have access to the other's writings and yet it fits together as if it were written by one person. It was written by God. It has no errors or contradictions. It is the Word of God. The bible is accurate in matters of Science, History, and all matters of life.
There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture. Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.

Think about it. Could Sam write a book in California, and Bill write a book in Canada, and Ralf write a book in Mexico and it fit together as one book? The bible did this 40 times, 66 books! It's God's word.

Here are some prophecies concerning Jesus Christ's first comming:

FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=jesus-vel-nub2.bmp (257366 bytes)" Prophecies of the Old Testament
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah and His church
a total of 1,093
50 Specific Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus
The Jewish Mystery
The Messiah, the Christ in Greek
Links
Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ:
There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.
Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.
And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek... so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ and His Church as they are shown in this site.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (Jn.1:45)
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me (Jn.5:46).
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Lk.24:27)
He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Lk.24:44).
He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).
Prophecies and types of each book of the Bible fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Church, a total of 1,093
92 Prophecies of the Psalms fulfilled in Jesus Christ
121 Prophecies of Isaiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:
Ancestors:

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.
Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)
2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)
4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)
5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)
6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.
- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)
Birth and Childhood:
7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.
- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)
8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35.
- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15.... Matthew 2:16-18.
- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)
11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1.... Matthew 2:14-15.
- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)
12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Passion:
13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)
14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2.... Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.
15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)
16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13.... Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)
17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8.... Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)
18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"
19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7.... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)
20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)
21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."
22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).
23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)
24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).
27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12.... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)
31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away
32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7.... Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)
34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15..... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10..... Matthew 27:52-53.
- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven
- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Ministry:
38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5.... John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.
- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah
39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.
40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.
41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.
42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.
43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.
45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.
46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.
47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.
48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.
49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.
50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.

Lets see, prophesy in the first part of a book that comes true in later parts of the same book.

it fits together as if it were written by one person. It was written by God. It has no errors or contradictions. It is the Word of God. The bible is accurate in matters of Science, History, and all matters of life.
There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture. Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.

Think about it. Could Sam write a book in California, and Bill write a book in Canada, and Ralf write a book in Mexico and it fit together as one book? The bible did this 40 times, 66 books! It's God's word.The theist is being all sober and reasonable - as though belief in the bible as the word of the god described therein can by logically and rationally deduced. Just watch though everyone. In a few posts time he'll abandon this and, after a few cries of "mistranslation" and "out of context", start resorting to generic anti-intellectual defenses such as "you must have an open-heart blah blah"; "the bible can be understood by the simplest yet missed by the most intellegent blah blah"; "you must accept it is the word of god and then you'll see it is blah blah"..... basically he'll soon deteriorate into appeals to emotionalism.

Ok Frodo, here's a scientific error:
1 Chronicles 16:30
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Here's a contradiction:
1 Samuel 2:8
The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
vs
Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Here's a failed prophecy (though this is strictly superfluous for the reasons Dan pointed out in his previous post - but it shows erroneous man wrote the bible unaided by supernatural forces)
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
The bible was written by God through 40 men in 3 languages over a 1,500 year period.

The Bible was indeed written by different people over a long span of time. There is little historical evidence to properly identify most of the authors however. You make the claim that the Bible was written by God, yet the only evidence you give is highly interpretive, and only suggests that the Bible might have been written by God. If God wanted to write the Bible, why didn't he do it himself, and why did it take him 1,500 years? (approx.)


These men lived in different parts of the world, some were rich, some were poor, some were educated, some were not, most didn't know each other, nor did they have access to the other's writings and yet it fits together as if it were written by one person.

They lived in the same general area that we call the Meditteranean basin. What little we know about the authors of the bible comes mainly from the Bible itself, and thus is somewhat suspect. The Bible certainly doesn't "fit together" as though it was written by one man. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John don't even agree with each other even though they are telling the same story.


It was written by God.

Evidence?

It has no errors or contradictions.

It has many of both.

It is the Word of God.

Evidence?

The bible is accurate in matters of Science, History, and all matters of life.

Science:
Leviticus 11:13
But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

How many flying creatures have four feet?

History:
2 Chronicles 14:8-9
14:8 And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour.
14:9 And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.

Here we have a passage that describes a battle between God's army of 580,000 men, and the Ethiopians who fielded a 1,000,000 man army. This would have been impossible in 1000 BCE. The US army in 2001 had about 1.37 Million men in it. Armies from earlier periods were by neccessity much smaller. Not only was the Earth's population smaller, but it would have been impossible to support such an army in the field.


There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture. Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.

If there are "countless" fulfilled prophecies, please post one that is clearly written, specific in its references as to time, place, and who might be involved, and unambiguously points to divine knowledge. Just one.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
The bible was written by God through 40 men in 3 languages over a 1,500 year period. These men lived in different parts of the world, some were rich, some were poor, some were educated, some were not, most didn't know each other, nor did they have access to the other's writings and yet it fits together as if it were written by one person. It was written by God. It has no errors or contradictions. It is the Word of God. The bible is accurate in matters of Science, History, and all matters of life.
There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture. Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.

Think about it. Could Sam write a book in California, and Bill write a book in Canada, and Ralf write a book in Mexico and it fit together as one book? The bible did this 40 times, 66 books! It's God's word.


Eveything you have written is 100% speculation - yet you talk as if you are offering up some kind of proof......incredible - yet normal.

The Bible is filled with contradictions - are you blind?

Certainly the Bible is an interesting book & it may well be inspired by God - but it was not written by God - it was written by men.

You cannot use Bible quotes to prove anything about the Bible. Plus - fyi - page after page of quotes is a waste of effort - nobody will read them.

As to the collaborative nature being some kind of proof - it isn't. Firstly - it doesn't fit together very well & by that logic Linux (a collaborative work) is also the server operating system written by God.

Xfro, I do not have to read far in the Bible to begin to see problems. In only the first 17 verses misinformation is given.

As a reference "A PRACTICAL AND EXPLANATORY COMMENTARY OF THE BIBLE" by:
Rev Robert Jamieson,D.D. Professor of Theology
Rev A.R. Faussett,A.M.
Rev David Brown,D.D.

In this reference the word firmament is the atmosphere of the earth. (which we know extends out only several miles from the surface of earth).

In the Bible verses 14-17 God made the Stars, Sun and Moon and "set them in the firmament."

To me this is pretty obvious that the Bible was written by men using only the knowledge of the time. Today men would know that the Sun, Stars and Moon are much further away from the earth than the atmosphere.

Please explain this misinformation that God provided to men if it (the Bible) was written only with the guidance of God.

Dan - when you say filament do you mean firmament?

Originally posted by Blob
Dan - when you say filament do you mean firmament?
--------------------------

Yes thanks, I was in a hurry and followed my first typo.
You know mistakes are made when men write something without god as a guide. ;)

hehehe :D

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
--------------------------

Yes thanks, I was in a hurry and followed my first typo.
You know mistakes are made when men write something without god as a guide. ;)

try going deeper into those trances...:D

Stong's defines firmament as:

07549. eyqr raqiya`, raw-kee'-ah
Search for 07549 in KJV


from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament.



Are not the Sun, moon, and stars visible in the sky? The firmament is the visible part of the sky. It does not say that it is the atmosphere.

I dont know what "Strongs" is but a Quick search on the dictionary reveals this

firmament

The vault or expanse of the heavens; the sky.

n : the apparent surface of the imaginary sphere on which celestial bodies appear to be projected

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
The firmament is the visible part of the sky. It does not say that it is the atmosphere. Birds fly in the firmament so it is the atmosphere:
Genesis 1:20
...and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Which is strange because the firmament IS heaven.
Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven.

Also if firmament meant sky then there is water above the sky.
Genesis 1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it
was so.

And your diety opens trapdoors in the firmament to make it rain:
Genesis 8:2
...and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Of course a common belief around the time the bible was written was that the stars and sun were set into a dome.
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/images/HEBRUNV.JPG
Sounds like the bible is the work of men who knew no better; no a perfect being who knows all.

Where did that picture come from? Was the bible illustrated at one point? That would have made all these vague representations a hella lot easier to work out. Plus since no one could really read back then they would have still got the general idea.

This came from a catholic website...The last sentence is very interesting. Especially since The Bible is said to be the word of god.

Firmament
(Sept. stereoma; Vulgate, firmamentum).

The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables (Chabas, LÆAntiquiteÆ historique, Paris, 1873, pp. 64-67). Likewise to the mind of the Babylonians the sky was an immense dome, forged out of the hardest metal by the hand of Merodach (Marduk) and resting on a wall surrounding the earth (Jensen, Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, pp. 253, 260). According to the notion prevalent among the Greeks and Romans, the sky was a great vault of crystal to which the fixed stars were attached, though by some it was held to be of iron or brass. That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Gen., i) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew word means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended; the Vulgate rendering, ôfirmamentumö corresponds more closely with the Greek stereoma (Septuagint, Aquila, and Symmachus), ôsomething made firm or solidö. The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in such passages as Job, xxxvii, 18, where reference is made incidentally to the heavens, ôwhich are most strong, as if they were of molten brassö. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in the account of the deluge (Gen., vii ), where we read that the ôflood gates of heaven were openedö, and shut upö (viii, 2). (Cf. also IV 28 sqq.) Other passages e.g. Is., xlii, 5, emphasize rather the idea of something extended: ôThus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them outö (Cf. Is., xliv, 24, and xl, 22). In conformity with these ideas, the writer of Gen., i, 14-17, 20 represents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time.

Yeah but Tape the Catholic church views much of the bible as allegory. They do not take it literally. They kind of pick and choose...

They have basically spent centuries doing so.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Yeah but Tape the Catholic church views much of the bible as allegory. They do not take it literally. They kind of pick and choose...

They have basically spent centuries doing so.

I know. I posted this here because some people claim the The Bilble IS the word of god. Period. Therefore, this assumption easily, undeniably leads to the next logical conclusion that the author, god, must exist. At the same time, the largest organized christian denomination admits that many of the "truths" presented in The Bible are reflections of the current belief system of that time, written by men. This admission severely weakens the "word of god" argument at the very least. As to the existance of the allmighty, well, one should not look to the bible as proof. Proof must be found somewhere else.

Originally posted by Tapeworm
I know. I posted this here because some people claim the The Bilble IS the word of god. Period. Therefore, this assumption easily, undeniably leads to the next logical conclusion that the author, god, must exist. At the same time, the largest organized christian denomination admits that many of the "truths" presented in The Bible are reflections of the current belief system of that time, written by men. This admission severely weakens the "word of god" argument at the very least. As to the existance of the allmighty, well, one should not look to the bible as proof. Proof must be found somewhere else.

Aaaaahhh, got ya...and agree!

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Aaaaahhh, got ya...and agree!

I am not sure how you got me. I may have missed something.
I stated that you would have to look somewhere else to find proof. At the same time I don't think there is anywhere else to look. You can look from now until eternity and still never be able to prove what you seek because what you seek does not exist.

Tapeworm, I appreciate the information in the above post.
The way the very first chapter(and others) of the Bible was written had always confirmed to me that it was not the absolute truth of God and was written with the view of men using only scientific knowledge of their time, and this lack of knowledge led them to errors that did not allow them to write as if God had furnished the information as they intended to do.

These various shadows of doubt combined with life experiences led me to the conclusions I live by. A view that the Bible was a wonderful masterpiece of composition by men, with many good messages to live by and many to overlook.

I believe that in generations to come, as more people are educated away from local superstitions, that man will seek more of the answers to his own true abilites rather than depend on superstition to rule his life.

Originally posted by Tapeworm
I am not sure how you got me. I may have missed something.
I stated that you would have to look somewhere else to find proof. At the same time I don't think there is anywhere else to look. You can look from now until eternity and still never be able to prove what you seek because what you seek does not exist.

LOL... I just said I got the gist of your post and agree with you. You can look until eternity for proof. One either believes or doubts...that simple.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

I believe that in generations to come, as more people are educated away from local superstitions, that man will seek more of the answers to his own true abilites rather than depend on superstition to rule his life.

Excellent!

Great firmament post tapeworm. Very interesting.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
I dont know what "Strongs" is but a Quick search on the dictionary reveals this

firmament

The vault or expanse of the heavens; the sky.

n : the apparent surface of the imaginary sphere on which celestial bodies appear to be projected

Strong's is the leading authority on the definition of the Hebrew words which were in the bible. The bible was not written in english, it was translated into english. Strong's is a "dictionary" which tells you the meanings of the original hebrew words. This is Strong's definition of the word firmament. You determine what the firmament is from this definition.

Here it is:

Firmament:

07549. eyqr raqiya`, raw-kee'-ah
Search for 07549 in KJV


from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament.


Are not the Sun, moon, and stars visible in the sky? The firmament is the visible part of the sky.

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX



Are not the Sun, moon, and stars visible in the sky? The firmament is the visible part of the sky.

Bilbo - did you just completely miss or choose to ignore my post on how firmament was defined by several ancient cultures?

I wiil go to heaven just as soon as someone finds it.

It doesnt exist, thus no one will find it, thus your not going there.

If by the break down of logic and reality did Heaven actually exist along with God, the guy is still a tosser and id rather take my chances with the Devil.

NASA forgot about telling us about having to get those spaceships thru all that water up there.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
NASA forgot about telling us about having to get those spaceships thru all that water up there. Of course! I see now! Breaking through the firmament is why rockets have a pointy front end.....

and thus why we have rain, it breaks the seal and it all comes gushing out, thus when planes are flying it rains as well, its all so clear now.

and THATS why they decommisioned Concorde, that thing must have been ripping holes half way to sunday.

Ahhhh

Here's a failed prophecy (though this is strictly superfluous for the reasons Dan pointed out in his previous post - but it shows erroneous man wrote the bible unaided by supernatural forces)
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. [/B][/QUOTE]


Isaiah is prophesying about the new Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven at the end of time-not the present day city in Israel.....

I agree, Chaff, though Stark wouldn't. It's gone now but there was a thread were I presented her with this about 16 or 17 times!

I used to be a strong Catholic, just like every member of my family, but thanks to a philosophy class I've broadened my horizons. Like others have mentioned, their are tens of thousands of religions out there, many of which conflict with one another. Which means, logically, that if there is in fact a "correct" religion, the rest would have to be "wrong". But whose to say which one is which? This is one of my many reasons for despising organzied religion, which are far too bogged down by rituals. Buddhism is perhaps the exception, since it mainly teaches peace. And that's never wrong.

I myself believe that if you're simply a good person, you'll go to heaven (if it exists). Forget the priests who think they know it all, and the Churches that try to tell you what to do with your life.

Welcome ComicsGn!

Buddhism may or may not be peaceful in principle, but it certainly is not always so in practice.

Militant Buddhism (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/468rruhe.asp)

Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to heaven. Not buddah, not mohammad, not confucious, Jesus Christ is the only one who rose from the dead!

Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to heaven. Not buddah, not mohammad, not confucious, Jesus Christ is the only one who rose from the dead!


You may want to keep in mind that many people are understandably skeptical about such claims. Can you prove that Christ rose from the dead? You can't expect everyone to go out on a limb and have faith. I personally think that Jesus was a great man who taught worthwhile moral principles, an opinion that almost all can agree upon. But is he the Son of God? That's where things get tricky...

Originally posted by XFRODOBAGGINSX
Jesus Christ is the only one who rose from the dead! No he isn't! In fact he wasn't even the first to rise from the dead.

Dionysus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Influence_on_Christianity)

Originally posted by Blob
No he isn't! In fact he wasn't even the first to rise from the dead.

Dionysus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Influence_on_Christianity)


dionysus rebuttal (http://tektonics.org/copycat/dionysus.html)

The rebuttal makes no attempt to deny Dionysis rose from the dead. It quibbles only the when and other specifics:
In others, "it is simply said that shortly after his burial he rose from the dead [in what form???] and ascended up to heaven; or that Zeus raised him up as he lay mortally wounded; or that Zeus swallowed the heart of Dionysus and then begat him afresh by Semele...[or] the heart was pounded up and given in a potion to Semele, who thereby conceived him."
As I say, Jesus is not the only, nor even the first, to rise from the dead.

there is actually a theory gaining ground that all those greek "gods" stories are related to actual humans (not gods)from an advanced antedeluvian civilisation.(call it atlantis,if you find that fits for you.

I don't think the quote you use agrees with the fact Jesus was not in actuality the first and only,to be fair....

Chaff,
Bear in mind that when I say Jesus or Dionysis "rose from the dead" I don't believe either actually did (in fact I doubt the former ever existed at all). What I mean is believers have believed Jesus/Dionysis "rose from the dead". In this sense jesus was not the first, and that quote demonstrates that your rebuttal does not deny this.

there is actually a theory gaining ground that all those greek "gods" stories are related to actual humans (not gods)from an advanced antedeluvian civilisation.(call it atlantis,if you find that fits for you. I'm sure it's gaining ground - crankery is increasingly popular these days.

Blob
wonder which is crankier-greek gods or ancient civilisation?

both on a par maybe...