ISLAM, and so-called "NATION OF ISLAM," are two different religions. The
only thing common between them is the jargon, the language used by the
both. "The Nation of Islam" is a misnomer; this religion should be
called Farrakhanism, after the name of its propagator. The religion of
Elijah Muhammad and W.D. Fard died with their death because their
officially and popularly elected successor, W.D. Muhammad, integrated
the community with the Muslim community at-large, following the Qur'an
and Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. Louis
Farrakhan joined W.D. Muhammad and gave his pledge of allegiance to him
after Elijah Muhammad's death; he later rebelled and broke his oath with
impunity, or without paying any expiation, and restarted "The Nation of
Islam."

www.convertstoislam.com


Tentmaker

In the Musnad ( collection of transmitted hadiths) of the eighth Imam ar-Rida (as), it is reported that the Prophet (saaw) declared: "I named my daughter Fatimah (as) (the Weaned One) because Allah (swt) weaned her and those who love her from the Fire." The Prophet (saaw) also called her al-Batul (pure virgin), and said to 'A'ishah: "O Humayra' ( a redish white, a well-known epithet of 'A'ishah), Fatimah (as) is not like the women of human kind, nor does she suffer the illness you ( women) suffer! " This is explained in another prophetic tradition which asserts that she never menstruated. It is likewise reported by Sunni traditionists on the authority of Anas ibn Malik, who heard Umm Salim, the wife of Abu Talhah al-Ansari, say: " Fatimah (as) never experienced the blood of menstruation or parturition, for she was created from the waters of Paradise." This is because when the Messenger of Allah (saaw) was transported to heaven, he entered Paradise, where he ate of it's fruits and drank it's water.

Lady Fatimah (as) the daughter of the Prophet Muhammed(saaw) is without doubt the best of the women of all the worlds.
She is the only female in the 14 Infallibles and therefore has a very special place in that she was the Daughter of the Prophet(saaw), the wife of the first Imam(a.s) and mother of the rest of the Imams(a.s).


Tentmaker

Fatimah, Mary and the Divine Feminine in Islam




--------------------------------------------------------------------------


At the very core of Islamic philosophy there is evidence of what can be called a vision of the Motherhood of God.

In the first Sura of the Koran, the Fatiha that is recited by millions of Muslims in their daily devotions, God is called Al Rahmin, the merciful and compassionate one. “Ramin” is derived from the Arabic for “womb” or “matrix”, mercy is also a feminine attribute, and so Muslims are reminded that God can be either woman or man. Every day God is compared to a mother and woman.

While the Muslim vision is often perceived to be authoritarian and punitive the Koran, on close inspection, is filled with descriptions and vision of God’s more feminine attributes such as gentleness, providence, love, universal compassion and tender-heartedness.

Muhammad was himself a living example of the Divine’s infinite capacity for forgiveness: many times he forgave enemies who had committed unspeakable atrocities against him and his brethren.

The religious intolerance that characterises the behaviour of many Muslim communities today is inconsistent with the heritage of tolerance that is professed by the Islamic tradition. For example, the Koran clearly states in several passages that any person who lives a life of holy reverence is welcomed into paradise regardless of their religion. Muhammad openly praises both Judaism (Abraham is deeply respected within the Koran) and Christianity (Muhammad frequently praises Jesus and Mary in the Koran).

Even more surprising is the Koran’s reverence for Mary, mother of Christ. Muhammad (and also in later Islamic theological scriptures) regarded Mary as the most marvellous of all women, a high adept and living example of the pure and holy life. Later Koranic commentaries describe Mary as an intervening force between God (Allah) and humanity. This intervening force is characterised by Allah’s mercy, forgiveness, sweetness and humility- the embodiment of Allah’s love for creation.

When Muhammad retook Mecca he began a programme of removing the pagan influences from the Kaaba, the most holy of Muslim sites. He removed many frescoes and images that he considered inauspicious but he specifically left on the walls a fresco of the Virgin Mary and her child.

In one of the most powerful Hadiths ( prophetic sayings of Muhammad) it is reported that Muhammad said, “Paradise is at the feet of the Mother”. Does this suggest that the feminine aspect of God is an important and essential pathway to the attainment of supreme consciousness?

Muhammad’s peak defining experience, called the Meraj, saw him elevated through the seven heavens to the realm of God Almighty at the resplendant Sidrath where he communed with God, received his divine visions and instructions and was placed on the inexorable course of his life-mission to establish Islam. Muhammad was escorted by the archangel Gabriel (a masculine force) but the vehicle upon which Muhammad rode was the beautiful “Buraq”. The Buraq was a white horse with wings and the face of a woman! Clearly suggesting that the great power by which Muhammad was elevated to the level of supreme consciousness was ultimately feminine in nature! Some scholars say that the Buraq is an Islamic symbol of the Kundalini, a force that Eastern Yogis describe as the Goddess or Divine Mother.

Fatimah is another prominent female in the Islamic tradition. Muhammad revered Fatimah as if she were a divine being, saying "Allah, The Most High; is pleased when Fatimah is pleased. He is angered; whenever Fatimah is angered!"

Whenever Fatimah would go to the house of Muhammad, he would stand up out of respect for her and honour her by giving her a special place to seat herself in his house. He regarded her as a sort of primordial woman, a symbol of divine womanhood giving her many holy names, such as: Siddiqah; The Honest, The Righteous; Al-Batool, Pure Virgin; Al-Mubarakah, The Blessed One; .Al-Tahirah, The Virtuous, The Pure, Al-Zakiyah ;The Chaste, The Unblemished ;Al-Radhiatul Mardhiah, She who is gratified and who shall be satisfied; Al-Muhaddathah, A person other than a Prophet, that the angels speak to; Al-Zahra, The Splendid; Al-Zahirah, The Luminous.

Shias revere the person of Fatimah, Muhammad's daughter and mother of the line of inspired imams who embodied the divine truth for their generation. As such, Fatimah is associated with Sophia, the divine wisdom, which gives birth to all knowledge of God. She has thus become another symbolic equivalent of the Great Mother.

Sunni Islam has also drawn inspiration from the female. The philosopher Muid ad-Din ibn al-Arabi (1165-1240) saw a young girl in Mecca surrounded by light and realised that, for him, she was an incarnation of the divine Sophia. He believed that women were the most potent icons of the sacred, because they inspired a love in men which must ultimately be directed to God, the only true object of love.

More generally speaking Muslims are reminded in the Koran that humans can experience and speak about God only in symbols. Everything in the world is a sign (aya) of God; so women can also be a revelation of the divine. Ibn al-Arabi argued that humans have a duty to create theophanies for themselves, by means of the creative imagination that pierces the imperfect exterior of mundane reality and glimpses the divine within. The faculty of imagination is commonly associated with the Divine Feminine.


While official Islam may not consistently describe the role of the Divine Feminine, this principle has been described and explored at length in the more esoteric Islamic tradition of Sufism. Sufism emphasises passionate, mystical adoration of God. Many Sufis (and other mystics in other religions) seek a spiritual union between themselves and the divine principle not unlike that between a child (the Sufi) and his mother (God) or a bride (Sufi) and the husband (God).

The Sufi poetry teaches the feminine qualities of joy, love, tenderness and self sacrifice on a path of true knowledge derived from the spiritual heart. The spiritual rebirth of the individual is not unlike the trial and tribulation of physical childbirth, according to the Sufis. They take the principle of divine love and use it to facilitate the process of alchemical transformation from mundane human to spiritual being.

The fanaticism that we see in modern Islam is a new development in a religion that, in its early history, was famous for its tolerance and respect for other religions. In Islam’s classical period in medieval Spain and Egypt perhaps only Buddhism rivalled Islam’s tolerance. The fundamentalism that characterises the behaviour of many of today’s Muslims is in fact anti-Koranic.

A Sufi Ode to the Divine Mother
On the face of the earth there is no one more beautiful than You
Wherever I go I wear your image in my heart
Whenever I fall in a despondent mood I remember your image
And my spirit rises a thousand fold
Your advent is the blossom time of the Universe
O Mother you have showered your choicest blessings upon me
Also remember me on the Day of Judgement
I don’t know if I will go to heaven or hell
But wherever I go, please always abide in me.


Tentmaker

About Islam Comparative Religion Science in Quran Women in Islam Audio/Video Muslims Section More... Home
Introduction

Existence of God

Misconceptions

Questions & Answers

News & Essays

Miscellaneous

Islam vs. Others

Muslims & Jesus

Quran - Bible - Vedas

Miscellaneous

Science in The Quran

News & Essays

Miscellaneous

Women In Islam

Islam vs. others

News & Articles

Miscellaneous

Religion of Islam

Comparative Religion

Science in Islam

Motivation

Women In Islam

Miscellaneous

New Muslims

For Muslims

Downloads

Poems

Online Chat

Contact US





Comparison Between Islam And
Farrakhanism (Nation of Islam)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Published by: The Institute Of Islamic Information And Education; III&E Brochure Series; No. 19

ISLAM, and so-called NATION OF ISLAM, are two different religions. The only thing common between them is the jargon, the language used by the both. The Nation of Islam is a misnomer; this religion should be called Farrakhanism, after the name of its propagator. The religion of Elijah Muhammad and W.D. Fard died with their death because their officially and popularly elected successor, W.D. Muhammad, integrated the community with the Muslim community at-large, following the Quran and Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. Louis Farrakhan joined W.D. Muhammad and gave his pledge of allegiance to him after Elijah Muhammad's death; he later rebelled and broke his oath with impunity, or without paying any expiation, and restarted The Nation of Islam.

Examine the following comparisons between Islam and Farrakhanism with regard to the belief or practice in each:

BELIEF/PRACTICE

1. GOD/ALLAH ALONE

ISLAM: One Unique, never appeared in any physical form; hence, no physical representation is possible. He is recognized through his 99 names.
FARRAKHANISM: ...Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July 1930; the long awaited Messiah of the Christians and the Mahdi of the Muslims.

2. PROPHET/MESSENGER

ISLAM: Muhammad (S) is the last Prophet and the last Messenger. No messenger or prophet will come after Muhammad (S).
FARRAKHANISM: Elijah Muhammad was a Messenger of Allah. Are there any more messengers or prophets to come? Not clear.

3. THE LAST DAY/THE LIFE HEREAFTER

ISLAM: The life on earth as we know it will come to an end; it will be followed by the life hereafter which includes physical resurrection of the entire humankind, judgement and the life of paradise or hell.
FARRAKHANISM: ...BELIEVE in the resurrection of the dead - not in physical resurrection, but in mental resurrection. No already physically dead person will be in the Hereafter; that is slavery belief, taught to slaves to keep them under control. When you are dead, you are DEAD.

4. THE QURAN

ISLAM: It was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (S) between 610 and 632 C.E.
It is the last revelation of Allah to mankind.
FARRAKHANISM: Contradictory beliefs. On one side, ...BELIEVE in the Holy Quran and in the scriptures of all the Prophets of God, and on the other side, We, the original nation of the earth ... are the writers of the Bible and Quran. We make such history once every 25,000 years ... it is done by twenty-four of our scientists. Both the present Bible and the Holy Quran must soon give way to the Holy Book...

5. THE BIBLE

ISLAM: It was revealed to prophets and messengers from Moses (alaihis salam) to Jesus (A) but was corrupted. Authenticity of statements in the Bible are judged by the Quran.
FARRAKHANISM: (See their beliefs above regarding the Quran)

6. SHAHADAH

ISLAM: It means what it says, that is, Allah is Unseen, He is the Creator, the Sustainer. Mankind is accountable to Him Alone, and Prophet Muhammad (S) of Arabia is the final and ultimate ROLE MODEL; no one can substitute for him.
FARRAKHANISM: A cover up to deceive gullible Muslims. Allah (God) appeared in the person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, and Muhammad of Arabia (S) was one of the prophets, not a role model for our times. The real role model and lawgiver for our times is Elijah Muhammad.

7. SALAH

ISLAM: Five times a day is required; SALAH (prayer) includes QIYAM (standing), RUKU (bowing), SAJDA (prostration), JALSA (sitting on the floor) and recitations.
FARRAKHANISM: No five times daily SALAH (prayer); prayer, when done has no RUKU or SAJDA. Friday is a major congregational prayer day, not for SALAH, but to say DUA and to listen to a Minister.

8. ZAKAH (CHARITY)

ISLAM: Required on accumulated wealth after having in possession for one year above the NISAB (certain limits), as defined in SHARIA (Islamic law).
FARRAKHANISM: It is a tax as poor due on income, similar to income tax.
Who benefits?

9. SAWM (FASTING)

ISLAM: Fasting is required in the month of Ramadan, ninth month of Islamic calendar.
FARRAKHANISM: Fasting is required in December only. Fasting in the month of Ramadan is optional.

10. HAJJ

ISLAM: Required once in a lifetime if conditions of finances, health, and safety of travel are met.
FARRAKHANISM: No Hajj requirement. Farrakhan and his cronies take trips to Saudi Arabia, and by the way, to Makkah for the main purpose of image building and to raise funds from gullible rich Arabs.

11. LAWFUL (HALAL); UNLAWFUL (HARAM)

ISLAM: Determined by Allah, the God Alone, announced in the Quran or by the Prophet Muhammad (S), recorded in the authentic Hadith sources.
FARRAKHANISM: Determined by W.D. Fard and announced by Elijah Muhammad. The Quran and Prophet Muhammad (S) have no relevance nor authority with regard to lawful and unlawful.

12. AUTHENTIC HADITH

ISLAM: An indispensable source of Islamic beliefs and practices, the only source after the Quran. Indispensable for the understanding of the Quran itself.
FARRAKHANISM: Ignored, if not totally rejected by Farrakhanis. However, the leadership, including Farrakhan himself, may invoke Hadith if it suits their purpose to fool gullible Muslims.
M. Amir Ali, Ph.D. References for Farrakhanism quotes are given in the authors article: ISLAM OR FARRAKHANISM. For a copy send $3.00 to the address given in this article.

KNOWING THE TRUE ISLAM:

There are many groups in America who claim to represent Islam and call their adherents Muslims. Any serious student of Islam has a duty to investigate and find the true Islam. The only two authentic sources which bind every Muslim are, (1) the Quran and (2) authentic or sound Hadith. Sometimes, Fiqh is quoted as a source. However, only that part of fiqh is a true source and binding which quotes directly Quran and authentic Hadith. All other parts of fiqh are opinions of learned scholars. Since scholars are not prophets or messengers of Allah, they are fallible people. Hence their opinions may be correct or may not be correct; they do not become binding.
Any teachings under the label of Islam which contradict or are at variance with the direct understanding of fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam from the Quran and authentic Hadith should be rejected, and such a religion should be considered a PSEUDO-ISLAMIC CULT. In America there are many pseudo-Islamic cults, Farrakhanism being one of them. An honest attitude on the part of such cults should be not to call themselves Muslims and their religion Islam. Such an example of honesty is Bahaism which is an off-shoot of Islam, but Bahais do not call themselves Muslims nor their religion, Islam. In fact, Bahaism is not Islam just as Farrakhanism is not Islam.

The foundation of Islam consists of TAWHEED, RISALAH, and AAKHIRAH. And five pillars of Islam are SHAHADAH, SALAH, ZAKAH, SAWM and HAJJ. The rest of the building of Islam consists of SHARIA which includes HARAM and HALAL, RIGHTS and DUTIES, MORAL CODE, CONVEYING THE MESSAGE, IMPLEMENTATION OF THE RULE OF ALLAH and EXCELLENCE in everything Muslims do. Any claims of Islam should be judged on the criteria given in this paragraph. If the foundation and pillars of a building are demolished there is no building left. Such is the case with pseudo-Islamic cults, including Farrakhanism.
For details request the booklet, HOW TO PRESENT ISLAM, A RATIONAL APPROACH by the author of this brochure.

INTRODUCTION OF III&E

The Institute of Islamic Information & Education (III&E) is established for the sole purpose of disseminating true and correct information about Islam and taking corrective action for the removal of misinformation and false perceptions which exist in the American society about Islam and Muslims. This authors article, ISLAM OR FARRAKHANISM and this brochure are contributions to achieve the stated goal. There may be other similar articles and brochures forthcoming on pseudo-Islamic cults not discussed here.
The Institute has published numerous brochures and articles on basic tenets of Islam and Islamic practices. Anyone wishing to have a complete set or a selection thereof should write to the Institute and request a complete list of its publications. In addition, the Institute provides learned Muslims as speakers to schools, churches, community organizations and talk shows. The Institute operates an Islamic Reading Room in Chicago, holds classes for non- and new Muslims who may be interested in advancing their knowledge in Islamic beliefs and practices. For more information write to:

The Institute of Islamic Information & Education
PO Box 41129
Chicago, IL 60641-0129
U.S.A.

ARTICLE FROM WWW.CADVISION.COM


BACK TO WWW.BECONVINCED.COM

The Nation of Islam was founded during the Great Depression of 1930 in the ghettos of Detroit Michigan. Having migrated to the industrial north in search of economic opportunity and to escape the racial oppression in the South, thousands of Blacks now found themselves in a crisis situation. As it turned out "the North was no Promised Land [but, in many ways,] was the South all over again…"1 The main difference being the racial prejudice in the South was overt whereas in the North it was covert.

"The starving, overcrowded blacks living in the slums of Detroit (as in other Northern cities) became increasingly bitter towards the whites who seemed to control their lives. Police officers, who are the ever present reminder of white power; white workers, who displaced blacks as jobs became more scarce or who retained their jobs as thousands of blacks were being laid off; even the welfare workers, who insulted the blacks and made them wait long hours before passing out the pitiful supplies of flour and lard — all these became the symbolic targets of a virulent hatred of whites..."2

Unable to resurrect the institutions and social systems that provided them security and support (i.e. mutual aid societies) in the South, blacks in the North cried out for deliverance. As Colin Akridge wrote, "Instead of looking for a spiritual Savior who would save them from their sins, they wanted a carnal savior who would save them from their poverty. They wanted their 'pie' now and were no longer interested in the Gospel."3

These desires were met in the summer of 1930 when a mysterious peddler of silks and artifacts by the name Wallace Fard Muhammad appeared in Detroit. Very little is known about him except that he is reported to have come from the East. "His mission was to teach freedom, justice, and equality to the members of the 'lost tribe of Shabazz in the wilderness of North America.'"4 He also taught poor blacks that "they were somebody. That they were Black people.… [who had] a past…[and] a future.… a history and a destiny."5

Because of the social climate and his teachings, Fard quickly gained a following. Within about three years he had recruited nearly 8,000 followers. One of these was an unemployed auto worker named Elijah Poole. Poole, who later changed his last name to Muhammad, was born the son of a Baptist minister in Sandersville, Georgia. He eventually migrated to Detroit with his wife, Clara, and their two children, and became a devoted follower of Fard. Due to his efforts on Fard's behalf Fard soon chose him to be his Chief Minister.

In the summer of 1934, Fard suddenly disappeared as mysteriously as he had arrived. Elijah Muhammad was named the new leader and assumed the title of "Messenger of Allah."

Perhaps the single most important event in the development of the Nation of Islam took place in 1947 with the "conversion" of a convict in prison at Concord, Massachusetts. His name was Malcolm Little but he would become best known by the name he later took, Malcolm X.

Like Elijah Muhammad, Malcolm was the son of a Baptist minister. He was born in Omaha, Nebraska, but spent his formative years in Lansing, Michigan, where life proved to be a struggle for Malcolm and his family. At age six, their home was burned to the ground by the Ku Klux Klan, and a short time later his father was found dead under a streetcar.

Though his mother tried to keep the family together, they were eventually separated with Malcolm being sent to a boy's institution. While in the eighth grade he was asked what vocation he wanted to pursue. When he responded that he wanted to be a lawyer, he was informed that such a profession was not suitable for a Negro.6 This ugly retort proved to be psychologically devastating. Malcolm would eventually leave the school and rather than pursuing the law, he would embark upon a life of delinquency and crime that would send him to prison for 10 years.

The turning point came in 1948 when his brothers, Philbert and Reginald, introduced him to the teachings of Elijah Muhammad and he converted to the Nation of Islam. "Upon his release from prison in the spring of 1952, Malcolm went to Detroit, Michigan, where he became Malcolm X, a minister of Temple No. 1. From then until 1964 Malcolm X was the main exponent of Elijah Muhammad's doctrine."7

After years of dedicated service to Elijah Muhammad, a rift developed between the two. Malcolm's worst suspicions were confirmed when a news report disclosed that two of Elijah Muhammad's former secretaries had filed paternity suites against him charging that he had fathered their four children. Devastated, Malcolm left the Nation of Islam and formed two organizations, The Muslim Mosque, Inc., and the Organization of Afro-American Unity (OAAU).

Malcolm moved more toward orthodox Islam, traveling extensively in Africa and the Middle East and participating in the Islamic holy pilgrimage to Mecca. After returning to the United States he was assassinated — gunned down at the Audoban Ballroom in Harlem, New York, on February 21, 1965.

With the death of Elijah Muhammad of congestive heart failure on February 25, 1975, his son, Wallace Deen Muhammad became the new leader of the Nation of Islam.8 Because of his knowledge of orthodox Islam, Wallace immediately began to make changes. Perhaps the most dramatic, some ten years later, was when he merged his followers into traditional, international Islam. This merging "'had been his goal for the mission from "day one." I have been trying to bring what used to be called the Nation of Islam to what I call a natural and normal Islamic community,' he said. 'The idea we have had of a community is not Islamic and came from the days of black nationalism. Our religion does not require the degree of organization and centralized control we have been used to. … Muslims are just Muslims, and they go to the mosque, and that is it.'"9 Another significant change was the group's commitment to racial harmony. "The same blacks who once believed whites were devils and who advocated the overthrow of the government now profess racial harmony, brotherly love and American patriotism."10

Not all of Elijah Muhammad's former followers were pleased with this new direction; many did not agree with the reforms made by Wallace. "One of the most hurting blows came when a disenchanted faction split from the fold. That faction, which adheres to the original tenets, is led by Louis Farrakhan…"11 Farrakhan essentially reorganized the old Nation of Islam.

Born Louis Eugene Walcott on May 11, 1933, in the Bronx, New York, Farrakhan was a recruit of Malcolm X whom he had met in 1955. Shortly thereafter he became a member of the Nation of Islam and quickly progressed through the ranks. He served under Malcolm for nine months and became the minister of the mosque in Boston, where he had spent his formative years. After the death of Malcolm X, this highly educated young man who had been raised a devout Episcopalian, graduated from Boston Latin School with honors and who had spent two years at Winston-Salem Teachers College in North Carolina,12 became Elijah Muhammad's National Spokesman.

Although Farrakhan's organization claims to be the authentic Nation of Islam, there are three other organizations making this same claim. John Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad's blood brother, heads one, based in Detroit. A second organization is based in Atlanta and headed by Silas Muhammad. Emanuel Abdulla Muhammad established a third organization in Baltimore.

The most recognized of the four organizations is that founded by Louis Farrakhan.

What really strikes me is the wording here:

"The Nation of Islam" is a misnomer; this religion should be
called Farrakhanism, after the name of its propagator. The religion of
Elijah Muhammad and W.D. Fard died with their death because their
officially and popularly elected successor, W.D. Muhammad, integrated
the community with the Muslim community at-large....

If Farakhan moves to the original tenents than he is not practicing Farakhanism, he is practicing the Nation of Islam. Sounds like an advertisement from another team.

The reason for my first post which uses Farakhanism is to show that those original tenents are still in place.

Pan,

It is an advertisement for another team, the team of Islam in America.

Farakhan did move back to the original tenets of the NOI after splitting with mainstream Islam. Glad you spotted it.

Now you understand why I said that the teachings Malcom X and those of the NOI are two different things, and that Malcom X cannot be connected with the organization if one is to be truthful.


Tentmaker

I completely disagree, NOI can have as many factions as it wants but cannot alter the history. So, to be truthful, we would have to include the history of the organization and we would have to incorporate Malcoms history with the organization and his teachings while he was with the organization as separate from those after the break. After the break, those rantings are opposite. I believe that it is a great disservice to deny that history, otherwise you can't measure where he came from. ( Yes, I understand your great love for the black man here and that this last sentence will not matter one whit to you.)
As for Farakhan, he is not, that I can see any different from the original set up. I don't view him or his views as I have seen them expressed as being original enough to give him Farakhanism. As they are original NOI.

Pan,

To go into NOI history one must deal with corruption, brutality, robbery, child molestation, slavery, criminal off-shoots, blackmail, terrorism, treason, and murder. It would be a profitless endeavor.

My disrespect for the race sprangs from their letting themselves be used and exploited a 5000-year old racist group, and they then turn and blame the White man for their sufferings. Try looking to the Khazars as the source of your suffering and woe over the span of many hundreds of years.


Tentmaker

um....... Tent, do you think I am black?

Pan,

I've not decided yet. The structure and content of your posts suggest that you strongly identify with the Black race. that, however, is not enough on which to base a decision.

Does it really matter as long as you are rational and show objectivity in your views?


Tentmaker

I hope it doesn't. There for a second I wasn't sure.

I don't think that you can pick and choose what you like from history because history is never a profitless endeavor. Ever.
NOI has crap. Everybody has crap. People need to see that crap so that they can make objetive decisions about them.

I would say that 3/4 of the problems in the US stem from being snowed either through the education system or through the TV gods, and those kinds of problems have a ...... larger ripple effect. If you follow me.

Pan,

Try not mistaking my hatred for scum-sucking Liberals as a form of racism. It is not.

Here is an example of what sets me off:

When we wed we vow to love, honor, and cherish each other. I carry it a few steps further to include those who are friends and associates.

Liberal scum label it as idiocy. But to me the the sexual perversions which they endulge in show to me jjust who the idiot is.

For how can I claim to love, honor, and cherish a woman if I agree to participate in or cocerce her in to acts of oral and anal sex-or other freaky crap? I see it as both demeaning and degrading of both me and the woman whether she is my mate or not.

Scum-sucking Liberals can get me going.


Tentmaker

hmmm.... I place the terms conservative and liberal in the "busy work" file. Point in case: Pro- life/pro-choice= so abortions are illegal because one side believes it is wrong. It doesn't end. There are still abortions.
Outlaw homesexuality- doesn't end it. It still happens.
While people are so pre-occupied with all the "sides" you miss what is happening globally and you didn't win, prove anything, score, or what not. You didn't change anything. Your just being kept busy while there are other things working at large.

Pan,

The battle that I fight is to preserve a semblance of a sane society. If we let freaks with their undisciplined lusts set the social agendas, then we will live in a hell precisely like those that brought down every civilization where it was permitted.

It is not my desire to end the practice of homosexuality, lesbianism, and other sexual perversions. That won tbe done till there is a social construct that makes such things improbable. My position is that the Liberal trash wont go un-answered and uncharged when they spew their filth my way.

I am one person doing what I judge to be right according to my understanding of nature. Till I'm shown that nature is whacko, then I will continue to say that scum-sucking Liberals who try to alter society to their ways ought to be put up against the wall.

Tentmaker

Sanity or norms and values are only relevent to the times and the culture. I have to ask you, since you are obviously against homosexuals and racism, what is it precisely that you consider insane? What you consider insane and what I consider insane may be 2 different things. You may think that sex under the age of 18 is insane, yet not think twice about a 12 year old on death row. I would question your sanity.

Pan,

The short answer:

That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To this end ought governments and societies be established.


Tentmaker

Pretty pink words on paper. You and I both know that when those words were written, they didn't include me.

And I think there is a definite conflict in those words and what you have previously written.

Pan,

When those words were established as foundational principles of this nation it was understood that they included the totality of mankind. What some people (scum-scuking Liberals) refuse to recognize is that those words created moral and legal norms that we all must live by. So, yes, the words did include you. What the words preclude is a different social/political ideology. A reading of the Federalist Papers very clearly shows this.

No, there is no conflict in what I stated in past posts and what I state now. I believe in a Republic based on democratic principles, not on a socialist democracy that destorys the founding ideas.


Tentmaker

I have every intention of replying to these, but when I don't feel quite as bad as I do at the moment.

Pan,

I never thought for a moment that you wouldn't reply. Take all the time you need. There's no rush.


Tentmaker

Good, then I will approach this tomorrow.

When those words were established as foundational principles of this nation it was understood that they included the totality of mankind.

And this is why it took another 200 some odd years to get the right to vote.
No, I have The Federalist papers, they are admirable words and they have been brought around to include everyone but that wasn't the original intent. That is ok. Because they set it motion.
That is absolutely fine.

Homosexuality has been around for ever, and it is genetic, nobody wakes up and says, "gee, I don't think that my life is hard enough guess I will become gay so I can get by butt kicked walking down the street when I least expect it. Maybe I can break my parents hearts, and the added benefit of listening to continuous slurs every day of my life.Ooh ooh ooh, count me in."
Life doesn't work like that. Of all of the homosexuals that I have known, gay and lesbian, all they want are the same rights as everyone else. They hold jobs, they pay taxes, they own property, they contribute to society. There isn't anything wrong with them, and what they do in bedrooms is not by business. If they walk down the street holding hands, its not my problem. They have their own bars, their own clubs, their own stores, and in some towns they are the majority. And their are good and bad just like hetrosexuals.

I have found myself really disliking that sociology = liberal. I think its unfortunate that people tend to associate sociology w/ it.
I don't know where that got thrown in or mixed in, but it drives me batty.
Sociology deals with large groups of people w/ common denominators. Of course there are two different views, sociologists who believe that one must use the information that they have and those who believe that its their job to study it.
When you start looking at things like crime, w/ groups of course, one of the things you look at is what puts it into motion and to nip it in the bud. That doesn't make the person unnaccountable, it means,"gee, historically this is a major componant that influences someones reasoning behind this action, if we change this element we alter the statistics." So effort is put into prevention.

Pan,

You opened the wrong door. Using sociological assessments on which to hang political arguments about racism is not what I'm about.

The U.S. is a Republic wherein the people act according to democratic principles. The engine of the Republic is Capitalism.

Tentmaker

Let me start with what do you mean by liberal trash? I need you to be specific here so I understand what you are saying.

Pan,

It was my intent to lead you to the point I'm trying to make, letting your own brain reach the obvious conclusion. But you seem to be hung up on labels that I use to denote people behaving in various ways. I'll will continue trying to push you in the direction I wish for you to go, To do it, however, it appears I must begin defining.

What do I mean by "liberal trash"? By that compound label I mean to designate those people who are without a viable moral code and who depend on others for their support. Dead beat dads and welfare moms are examples of what I mean by the label.


Illegal immigrants from Third World countries are the worse of all. The vast majority are illiterate, diseased, without any morals, lazy, unreliable, untrust-worthy, of a criminal mentality, and enter this country simply to commit crimes and/or draw welfare. Say me nay. For I live in a State where billions of dollars go yearly to "liberal trash".


Tentmaker

I am not going to go in the direction you want me to go. Let me clue you in to something Tent, I was born in Tucson,AZ. So your whole "oh woe is California, is pretty lost here." I know all about immigration, I know all about the problems that are associated with it.
To top that off, I spent 6 years 90 miles from Cuba. So not only did we have mass amounts of Cubans, but Haitians..... a country that the US screwed so bad that it will be hundreds of years if ever to get back up again.
But it gets even better, I worked for a group of people who sold papers and cards illegally, we had mass amounts of people coming from the Eastern Block that believed they were coming over her legally, but were forced into prostitution to pay off this huge travel expense that was never going to be payed off or sent to work as cleaning maids and the men were forced into working in back of the house kitchens. Working 17 hours a day for 2 bucks an hour, kept in constant fear, shifted from one place to another. All they wanted to do was to go back home. Everyone knew what was going on, INS would come through the door. Which was how I was able to verify what I knew.
I have been across this country a couple of times, and i have seen some crap on immigration that would make you cry.
If they come from a Latin country, they are probably very conservative. As well as those from the Eastern Bloc.
Another thing that you may want to check out is how America sells itself, the U.S. information Society sells the US, they have 2 different websites, they dessimate 2 different packages of information and they play some of the most hardcore propaganda crap that has ever been.
Yes, I expect you to define precisely what it is you mean. Because what has been defined as "liberal trash" is obviously a different definition than what you have.

Pan,

Now let me clue you in. In owned property in Tucson, Az. I resided in Tucson for a number of years. I have a son who was born in Tucson. I also owned property in Oracle and Mammouth.

I also owned a home and business in St. Pete, Florida.

I know of the houses of forced prostitution and of the sweatshops.

Don't you think me a virgin when it comes to exploitative capitalism employed by the bastards controlling the U.S?

What you fail to comprehend it that no one owes these people anything. It has been my experience that in the majority of instances it is their own people who is shafting them. So why do you blame America for that which is done illegally by the vary people of which we speak?

To make it short and sweet. In a Republic governed by democratic principles, a person's worth is guaged by his/her economic achievements. Under our Constitution one of your inalienable rights is that of "free trade". That is, you may enter into contractual agreements of a capitalistic nature. Your participation in the American system of capitalims is encouraged, not discouraged. One's lack of worth is judged by one's lack of economic accomplishments, i.e., being on the public dole.

Tentmaker

Great, then we have the same background here. I am getting that feeling on several posts. No need to preach to the choir.

Because the cost is so damned great. It is so damned great. The corporations make a profit, the small business owner makes a profit, the jack off who is selling them is making a profit, and its a no win situation. They don't deserve this. Everybody has a right to live without fear. They don't have to do that here, albeit, but you understand what I am saying. Being angry at people who are powerless is easy, being angry at the those who perpetuate the bs is in my eyes a better aim.
When your a pawn in a game that you don't know the rules,(language/laws/norms/values/etc.) it is a problem. Most of the people don't come here with crime being there objective. Yes, there is usually someone of their ethnicity or nationality who is doing the screwing, but just like here..... your a contributer for buying the stolen merchandise. No you don't owe anything to them, you do owe it to your children, your lifestyle, ethical business practices, and keeping it sane.

Pan,

We are all more or less pawns in a game little understood by any of us. What is of no value in a search for freeing ourselves from the predators is a playing of the blame game. That is precisely what the predators wish for us to do. It makes the manipulating of us that much less difficult.

My effort is directed toward ferreting out the truth and using it to expose the dirty little games played by the low-life bastards. I can't post what I know here because the Eyes of Big Slimeball would see it have this forum closed down in a week's time.


Tentmaker

I have a problem w/ the blame game. Yes, certain topics that people argue about endlessly are "busy work."

Other topics, need to be talked about, need to be out in the open.
Because its the silence that is killing us.
And yes, I understand.

I thought about this last night after I logged off, and I know you don't like getting caught up in definitions but could you tell me a couple of blame games that you dislike.

Pan,

To answer your question.

I don't wish to bore you with historical detail you already know. So let me cut straight to the chase. Before the Balfour Declaration Jewish radicals, insurgents, were already operating in Palestine. That is, they were murdering Palestinians, and were doing it with financial help from the Jewish community at large.

There was the Stern Gang, a bunch of murdering thugs who were Zionist's assassins. The British military tried stooping them, but the soliders who were helping to create the State of Israel suddenly became the enemy and became themselves murder victims of the Stern Gang. Finally, Britian pulled its troops out, and the killing of Palestinians got underway in earnest.

When Israel became a State in 1947 the word went out from Zionist headquarters for the Jewish operatives in Palestine to kill and take all the land as fast as they could. In a few short weeks, thousands of Palestinians died. The victims were peoole whose only crime was living on the land that the Zionists wanted.

Now, for the past 50-odd years, thousands more Palestinians have been murdered by the Zionists butchers. Why is it done? To get Palestinian land. How is it done? The BLAME GAME.

The usual routine is for some Zionist agent (generally a Mossad sucker) to provoke a Palestinian into doing something rash. Once it is done the Mossad sends in the troops. Palestinians, armed only with rocks, attack the tanks and armored vehicles. Then the killing begins. Who is at fault? the Palestinians, of course. The BLAME GAME.

To America we come at a time of slavery. Who is BLAMED for it? White America. Why? The BLAME GAME.

But who were the first slavers? Who owned the ships that transported the slaves from Africa? Who owned the insurance companies that insured those ships? Who sold the Africans to the owners of the auction houses? Who were the people who caused laws to be enacted that made slavery possible in the first place? Finally, who were the only people who had the money to finance the operation? It sure the hell wasn't the white plantation owners.

There are thousands of aspects to the BLAME GAME. The masters of the game have their very capable psychologists to show them how to manipulate people's opinion in order to hide the manipulators' role in the game.

The critical thing the manipulators are doing today is to keep racial tensions at a high pitch. The one aspect of the BLAME GAME they have played for thousands of years.

Do you think that discrimination in America is a chance thing? If you do, you're wrong. Discrimination is but a tactic of the game. Who is the most guilty of job discrimination in America? To answer that, you need but ask yourself who it is that owns the giant international corporations.

The BLAME GAME and its role in racial division is crucial to the war being waged for control and possession of the wealth of the world. Who is it that benefits the most from the BLAME GAME?

Yes! to the first one. And yes to the second one.

Yes! racial tensions are kept in place specificly as "busy work." This is the only logical reason for Jesse Jackson NOT being in prison.
Slavery has been around for as long as wars have been fought. You have to stay 10 steps ahead to not fall in the trap. Largly kept in place by the fear platform. I think its damned hard not to fall into the trap. Yes, Africans sold Africans into slavery. However, there were free blacks already in America that owned land and infact had white indentured servents. There was a great deal of prejudgice but it was class orientated and for a long time, whites and blacks intermingled, married etc. Then the laws changed.
This history that the US has with slavery is brutal and its cruel and it needs to be accepted. On the other hand someone trying to force me to not only be held accountable for those actions but telling me that I am guilty of something now, is saying that as a white female w/ half of an education and owning a home (or rather the bank owns it) is holding much weight in this society. That is merely just giving power away, I don't have that kind of power, and I don't want it for that purpose.

Pan,

Okay, you have the picture. So why should we (a black and a white) aid and abet the games of the slavers by playing the Blame Game according their rules and requirements?

We both know who controls the game, and we know for what purposes they control it. Without the black and white buying into the con game of racial hatred, what would the slavers do?

We shouldn't!

Pan,

So the profitable alternative is life in a Republic where the people are governed by democratic principles as they engage in fundamental capitalism which is best suited for the self-reliance of every individual.

Knew you would see it my way.:D

I just don't see that as the alternative way of thought. You can do better than that.

Pan,

I offer what is familiar to the people, not what I consider best. The alternatives which I see are not acceptable to those conditioned by that which is.