[continued from the learned helplessness thread]

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Your post implies all prescription drugs and medical procedures were discovered or learned through animal testing. Not true.

OK, then promise not to take any drugs or have any medical procedures done on you that were practiced on animals. Oh, and most doctors have at one point or another gone through dog labs, so promise me you won't be a patient of any of those doctors.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Maybe it would take a month or two longer or maybe it wouldn't.
Might cut into the profit picture a bit though...and we sure can't have that.

Longer or shorter isn't the issue, making sure the drugs/procedures are safe is the issue.


Originally posted by Echo2
The nazi's did medical experiments on people. We do them on animals.

So we should go back to doing them on people?

Originally posted by Echo2
What makes you people think that animals don't feel the same pain we do? Anyone who has ever had a pet can tell you that animals have very distinct personalities and are individuals. So because they can't add and write we should experiment on their bodies?

Do you eat meat?

Originally posted by Echo2
Linear thinking is easy. Compassion takes a bit more depth.

OK then, what's your solution?

They must not have a solution.... :D

Maybe it only pertains to a case of debate (as a point of contention) and has no value outside of the original debate itself?

really, it all comes down to a question of value. We value the lives of humans over the lives of animals, and that's that.

I don't know, maybe as a compromise, howabout this. We give prisoners on death row the option to volunteer for medical testing. If they make it through, they can go free, if not, well, their time on this earth will be a little bit shorter.

It sounds pretty horrible, and i don't think there are enough prisoners to go around, but it IS an alternative. Liberals keep animals from getting hurt, Conservatives get to execute people. Everyone is happy. Well, almost everyone.

keep in mind this would be a volunteer program.

Actually prisoners have volunteered for drug testing.
It is sad that animals must be used in medical experiments.
I do not know what the alternative would be.
Clones with little or no brains would still be complained about as wrong. No plants, that I know of, have systems similar to humans.
Ultimately new proceedures and drugs must be tested.

OK, then promise not to take any drugs or have any medical procedures done on you that were practiced on animals. Oh, and most doctors have at one point or another gone through dog labs, so promise me you won't be a patient of any of those doctors.

So you will voluntarily give up your pet to medical experiments to save a life then. Or maybe it won't actually save a life but test away. Let's not look for any other alternative. Very nice! Oh maybe not your pet just some other mangy old dog.

What is with the all or nothing crap arguement?

So here ya go... yes I promise not to take any drugs or have any medical procedures done on me that were practiced on animals.

Makes as much sense as your presentation. Or was there some kind of defense in there for animal testing that I missed due to your sarcastic angle.

Kind of brought the whole thread to a halt didn't it.

Yeah, guess we don't have an answer or could there be another reason no one wished to jump in?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Longer or shorter isn't the issue, making sure the drugs/procedures are safe is the issue.

Testing on an animal does not ensure drugs or procedures are safe so that is not the issue.

So we should go back to doing them on people?

I know a few people who I could volunteer....:D

I think the point she was making was in retrospect we are horrified since we have evolved a tad....

Now some people are beginning to realize maybe there is a correlation with the animals? Maybe there are more humane ways which we could seek.

OR we could just go with the status quo... it's the popular way...:(

OK look, I don't buy into the all or nothing idea either, but I was trying to make a point, which is that banning all animal testing because we've evolved or whatever isn't especially practical. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but how many realistic alternatives are there? And don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely against animal testing where it's completely not needed, say like spraying hairspray in some rabbit's eyes to see what happens. But at the moment, giving animals some drugs to see what happens is the best way to eliminate as much risk as possible before moving on to human trials.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
OK look, I don't buy into the all or nothing idea either, but I was trying to make a point, which is that banning all animal testing because we've evolved or whatever isn't especially practical. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but how many realistic alternatives are there? And don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely against animal testing where it's completely not needed, say like spraying hairspray in some rabbit's eyes to see what happens. But at the moment, giving animals some drugs to see what happens is the best way to eliminate as much risk as possible before moving on to human trials.

I know that a rat's body is genetically the closest to a humans. It is the best for physical experimentation. Now my girl friend's kid has a rat it is damn disturbing to see the thing cuddle and watch it actually process how to get peas out of a water dish. The bloody things are smart.

One of the most haunting reports I have seen was a follow up on a guerrilla that had been used for sign language learning, communicating and testing.

Years later the scientist had been walking through a room full of guerrilla's that were going to be shipped off and injected with some wonderful disease. One of the guerrilla's began signing him like mad. Calling to him. The guerrilla had remembered him from ten years previous.

The scientist was shaken badly and the guerrilla luckily for him, was removed from the project. His analysis of the whole industry and it's lack of integrity and the ethicality of the whole thing have stuck with me.

It is not cut and dry.

Just like eating meat. Damn but I just love my steak and any kind of beef. But do I really truly believe the slaughter of animals for food is okay... no I don't. I just don't go there when I eat my fillet. And the fact that we are poisoning our own food supply may be a gentle warning whisper that we need to exam that as well.

I don't have an answer I just know it's not ok.

The thing that gets me about these people that crusade for animal rights is 9 out of 10 of them would happily crusade for the right to kill an unborn child, but when it comes to killing a lab rat in the interests of saving a life they are all against it.

Lets be realistic - a rat is a rat, if it takes a million rats to save one life - then bring in the rats to be slaughtered.

Few are for mindless cruelty, but this isn't that - it's a case of research to benefit mankind. I'm ok with that & until I'm reincarnated into rat kind - I doubt my views would change.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
One of the most haunting reports I have seen was a follow up on a guerrilla that had been used for sign language learning, communicating and testing.

Years later the scientist had been walking through a room full of guerrilla's that were going to be shipped off and injected with some wonderful disease. One of the guerrilla's began signing him like mad. Calling to him. The guerrilla had remembered him from ten years previous.

The scientist was shaken badly and the guerrilla luckily for him, was removed from the project. His analysis of the whole industry and it's lack of integrity and the ethicality of the whole thing have stuck with me.


There is another wonderful story I read a few years ago. A chimpanzee had been taught sign language in a research project. The project lost it's funding, and the chimpanzee was transferred to a zoo, where it was placed with several other chimpanzees in an outdoor exhibit. Months later a class of deaf children was at the zoo, and noticed the chimps signing to each other. They were amazed because the chimps were debating how they could move a large log to lay it across the moat and escape. They warned the zoo keepers, who removed the log.
That is behavior that is entirely to human to make me comfortable experimenting with drugs on chimpanzees.

Thats exactly the reason WHY they are perfect specimens for experiments. To be honest chimps are cute but I really couldn't give a rats ass about a chimps life. I would never want to see any form of cruelty without purpose - that would be sickening, but if a chimp is needed to test some drug then wheel him in - better test it on a chimp than a human. It's just the reality of life. We are the zoo keepers because we are smarter than chimps.

Fall in a chimps cage and he'll beat the crap out of you for no good reason at all - at least we only do the Dr Mengele routine when there is something to be gained for HUMANkind.

Advance science, suck up all the oil - live the best life we can & when it's all gone, well at least we had it good. Unlike the chimps who never had it good.

Poor chimps.

Cool story about the log thing though - clever buggers those chimps.

Originally posted by Imagineer
There is another wonderful story I read a few years ago. A chimpanzee had been taught sign language in a research project. The project lost it's funding, and the chimpanzee was transferred to a zoo, where it was placed with several other chimpanzees in an outdoor exhibit. Months later a class of deaf children was at the zoo, and noticed the chimps signing to each other. They were amazed because the chimps were debating how they could move a large log to lay it across the moat and escape. They warned the zoo keepers, who removed the log.
That is behavior that is entirely to human to make me comfortable experimenting with drugs on chimpanzees.

That made me laugh!

I know I am over the top about inflicting pain on anything. Even bugs in the house get tossed out rather than stomped on...if I get to them first that is. :D

With all of the science we have now there have to be better ways to approach experiments than animal testing. They are getting away from it more and more because it is not as effective as once thought. Our bodies do not always respond as predicted. Just because it works on a chimp does not mean it will work on a human. Many times the corollary just does not work and it is only realized much later. Long term effects can never be measured till a human ingests it long term.

Now we actually are using humans for testing using blind studies. With their knowledge and consent of course. Unlike the studies done during WWII.