Saw on the news that appx:450 volunteers are going to watch the Arizona border for illegal entry from Mexico. They are voicing the opinion that the government (Bush was mentioned) is not doing enought to protect the borders.
Supposedly they are not going to make contact with individuals, they are going to call law enforcement when someone is observed making illegal entry.
Officials are against the plan. Saying that someone may get hurt.
Answer to this statement by one of the minute men was that if a terrorist comes thru he is coming to hurt someone.
Government is sending 500 additional border agents to the area saying it has nothing to do with the minute man project.

Comment:
I do think it strange that passengers on airlines are subjected to such searches when it is quite possible to walk into the United States. I am not saying that airline security is not important. I am agreeing that the borders are virtually unprotected in reality.
We have no idea how many potential enemies to the American way of life are already in place.

I once again say that if we ring the borders with enough personnel we can cut down on drug traffic, cut down on the illegal immigrant problem, and make America a safer place.

I am tired of the Administrations band-aid (high profile) solutions to the problem of American Security!

I too think the administration, and all past administrations, has not done enough to safeguard our southern border. The southern border has been far too accessible to anybody and everybody that wish access.

And Mexican nationals in Arizona have the nerve to protest the Minutemen. I say check the legal status of all the protesters.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3157421&nav=HMO5YCUD

And the Mexican government is threatening legal action. I did not think they even had a legal system in place.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3143272

For more information of how illegals hurting the US go to http://www.alipac.us/

There is a reason they are called illegal, not legal aliens.

Unfortunately, the type of people that would declare themselves "minutemen" and march off to guard the border are the same types of people that are likely to do something stupid. Like beat the crap out of a legal Mexican that happened to be walking down the street.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Unfortunately, the type of people that would declare themselves "minutemen" and march off to guard the border are the same types of people that are likely to do something stupid. Like beat the crap out of a legal Mexican that happened to be walking down the street.
-------------------------------------------------

Lionel, most of the guys I saw in the newscast were 60+ and grey haired. Not the type of radical people you might picture.
They were also from many states.
This concern over national security is not just an Arizona thing.

Unfortunately, the type of people that would declare themselves "minutemen" and march off to guard the border are the same types of people that are likely to do something stupid. Like beat the crap out of a legal Mexican that happened to be walking down the street.

Lionel, this made me really sad to see you, probably our most intelligent poster, make this statement. If you lived near the border, you might feel a little bit different about this problem and people that are proactive and taking action to stop it.

In any case, I'm glad to see the American-Mexican border getting a little bit more publicity than it does. It doesn't make that much sense to me to guard our airprorts as closely as we are now, while the Mexican border flows as freely as it does, with literally millions and millions crossing. Any terrorist organization would be stupid to try to enter the US through our airports when it is so easy to enter the US just by walking.

There is a lot of truth to Lionel's generalization. The only time you get a large group of people together (with the exception of sports) is when they are negatively motivated by something.

Unfortunately this is a logical next step due to my president's inaction and selling his soul for the hispanic vote.

Originally posted by Karankawa
Lionel, this made me really sad to see you, probably our most intelligent poster, make this statement. If you lived near the border, you might feel a little bit different about this problem and people that are proactive and taking action to stop it.

I'm not opposed to people taking action, it just seems like these things always go wrong. Depends on what they're going to do, I guess. If they're just going to radio the authorities, that's one thing. If they're going to start doing citizens arrests then I suspect it won't be long until someone gets detained that shouldn't have been detained.

See why I call Arizona Hell On Earth?

It's about time the border got this much attention. While a good number of nuts will most certainly show up, hopefully the organizers will stick to their convictions by selecting only the minor zealots and being eyes, leaving the true crazies pissed off at being rejected by yet another group.

Have you heard of that cult (everyone's a cult now a days :P) that's killing illegal immigrants? They find 'em and BAM! They shoot 'em. Eek...

And Mexican nationals in Arizona have the nerve to protest the Minutemen
GW- I dont know about your source there (even though they are a major station). I can find absolutly nothing stating that the border crossing at naco was closed. Whats more the only protest account, in Naco, I can find was done by the minute men on April 2nd.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/ACTIVISTNEWS/MINUTEMAN-PROJECT/050402-NACO-PROTEST/01.html

If you go here: (photo essay)
http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/04/25972.php

I talked to the guy with the camera in the 4th picture down (on the right side). He was a racist moron. I was asking innoculas questions as to his motivation (after a long conversation abot cameras). He said quote "nothing pisses me off more than walking ito a store and seeing a sign in mexican" bwhahaha. Besides that fact that mexican isnt a language this guy was quite focused on english. I asked him "we aren't most sign in english AND spanish?" To which he replied "well this is America we're suppossed to speak english." He said he wanted to patrol the border to protect "American culture". When I asked him what American culture was he said "if you dont know what it is I can't (or was it wont?) explain it wo you." I told him that if he was willing to volunteer so much time he should be able to verbalize what he was protecting. He reponded with "American culture is, well...Speaking english for one...and...you should know." He failed to cite one thing that needed to be "protected." He was quite reflective of most of the participants in the minute men that I talked to.

Heres another photo essay on the minute men:
http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/04/25966.php
And another one on the protestors:
http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/04/25987.php
(the indigenous dancers were fucking awesome, as always)

There was another man with the minute men who was very intelligent. He drew his arguments back to the Corporate control of America, whihc is exactly what all the protesters were talking about. He knew who was behind such things but unfortunatly he thought it was much easier to target/scapegoat mexicans than coporations. He demostrated this quite well when he talked about "Americn culture" (seemingly an orchestrated talking point). When I asked him "what about the coporations that have destroyed American culture by promoting greed and competition over community and cooperation?" To which he responded "Well you people have been fighting the corporations for years and where has it gotten you?" Which besides the obvious irony of his statement (have immigrants stopped?) It seemed to me to scream 'well I have no problem with trying to stop corporations because they are a problem but mexicans are easier to catch.' He was intelligent and well spoken but I had major issues with his conclusions. Particularly when he claimed that there was only one truth and he was the one who had it. He runs this site:
http://www.tianews.com/tianews/

Heres the indymedia coverage of the event:
http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/04/25950.php

Get this: the minute men are patting themselves on the back because they gave water to a border jumper. And while yes it is a good thing there are numerous groups that have been setting up water stations out in the desert for years. Unfortunatly Chris Simcox's racist thugs repeatedly put holes in these containers.
Heres an article on various border groups:
http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/25825.php

Some of the signs protestors were holding:
No human is illegal
Borders imprison us all
Whose illegal, pilgram?
Fronterrorismo (Frotera = border)
Osama is not mexican

Food not bombs was on hand to serve food after the event.

When I asked him what American culture was he said "if you dont know what it is I can't (or was it wont?) explain it wo you." I told him that if he was willing to volunteer so much time he should be able to verbalize what he was protecting. He reponded with "American culture is, well...Speaking english for one...and...you should know." He failed to cite one thing that needed to be "protected."

You begin to realize that American culture is being lost when certain events culminate in your city, say for example, the top rock & roll radio station on FM is replaced by a Mexican radio station. Or Cinco de Mayo becomes a major holiday. Or you walk into your elementary schools that you grew up in and most of the kids are Hispanic and speak Spanish.

It's almost like the US has lost a war and is occupied. It's funny that Iraq gets all that media coverage for being occupied by US troops, but this story gets no play.

Originally posted by Karankawa
You begin to realize that American culture is being lost when certain events culminate in your city, say for example, the top rock & roll radio station on FM is replaced by a Mexican radio station.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here Karan, but don't you usually take the capitalistic viewpoint? I mean, the radio station changed it's format because it would be profitable for them to do so, not because the station was taken over by aliens.

It's almost like the US has lost a war and is occupied. It's funny that Iraq gets all that media coverage for being occupied by US troops, but this story gets no play.

I really don't get the connection here. You speak of the immigrants as if they are an invading enemy, when in reality they are just dirt poor people looking for a better life here.

How would you define "American culture"?

The thing about American culture is that it ADAPTS. There was a time when spaghetti and meatballs and ravioli and pizza were totally alien foods, NOW they are just about as American as apple pie. (please don't go and explain to me how such foods got "americanized" I KNOW that already) The point is that whenever a new group of people come to the U.S., new words, ideas, foods and perspectives are brought into the U.S. culture, making it richer. I'm not worried about a radio station playing Latino music or a new holiday starting up here in the U.S.

Having said that there are two things that I DO worry about when it comes to Mexicans and other spanish speaking peoples here in the U.S.

First off, if you come to America, you MUST learn to speak english. Period. The Italians, Poles, Jews, Pakistanis, Indians (from INDIA, dammit) Russians, Chinese, Japanese and everybody ELSE learned English, same thing with the Mexicans. English is the common language that unites us, don't speak english, you can't fit in, oppurtunities are lost to you. I'm not saying one can't speak a foreign language in their homes, churches or communities, but when you apply for an American citizenship, you'd better speak the American language, which is english.

Secondly, ALL immigrants need to know American history. It tells the story of America and how it came to be. Our history is as common a uniter in America as our language is. Why is there a Bill of Rights? What is the purpose of hte Bill of Rights? How did the Civil War come about? What were the effects of the Industrial Revolution? Unions, wars with Europe, our ideals ALL need to be learned by everybody who comes here.

I think what Karankawa is saying is that he is worried that we are getting an influx of Mexicans that are NOT adapting to our culture. In a way, it's the same old worry that has plagued Americans every time a new group of foreigners arrive here, but in a way it's different. It seems that spanish speaking peoples are NOT learning the language, being poorly educated. This does nobody any favors, least of all, the spanish speaking people who do come here. Without an education and the ability to speak english, they will never fully avail themselves of the benefits that comes from living in America, they will never be American Citizens.

In a familiarization tour this week-end by the minute men, information furnished by them led to 18 arrests, according to CNN.

Sounds like a good beginning.

Excellent post Darth.

But, even some of the "Indians, Chinese, Japanese" etc. could use a few more lessons about English. It's infuriating when they call and you try to be polite, but get so damn frustrated because you can't understand a word out of their mouths!

Originally posted by saycricket
Excellent post Darth.

But, even some of the "Indians, Chinese, Japanese" etc. could use a few more lessons about English. It's infuriating when they call and you try to be polite, but get so damn frustrated because you can't understand a word out of their mouths!

1. Their transition to English is much more difficult than Spanish-speaking individuals.

2. I'll bet they have, or intend to find, a job.

It's almost like the US has lost a war and is occupied. It's funny that Iraq gets all that media coverage for being occupied by US troops, but this story gets no play.

I really don't get the connection here. You speak of the immigrants as if they are an invading enemy, when in reality they are just dirt poor people looking for a better life here.


It's not all immigrants. It's the illegal ones that come here and expect the rights offorded to the ones here legally.

Or Cinco de Mayo becomes a major holiday. Or you walk into your elementary schools that you grew up in and most of the kids are Hispanic and speak Spanish.
K - you obviously have nevere been to the SW. We do celebrate Cinco de Mayo and we do celebrate Dia De los Muertos and tehre are a huge number of mexican stations. Culture does not stop at man made boundries. They occupy an area.

Darth - I tried to tell the guy that American culture by it very nature is an ecclectic mix of other cultures.

So how does passing laws saying schools can only be teach in English:
A. help the kids learn english
B. Teach them American history

These minute men got a bil passed saying only english can be used in teaching. they only gave 1 year for all the kids to learn english. Of course it doesnt have a drastic an efect since many teachers simply ignore the bill. They are more interested in teaching than anything else.

Theres also quite a few people that are willing to go pick up border crossers and bring them further into the states.

Yes I do think that they should learn to speak spanish because it does ostrocize them. Ususally though they have kids who either pick up english or are born here learning both. You may complain about the first generation not knowing english but the second always learns it.

Guerilla,

They used to use a process called immersion to teach immigrant children english. Basically, it was a crash course in English, it was taught from the time they got to school till the time they went home. It helped immigrants master the english language quickly.

They tried a new idea with the Mexicans. First teach in spanish, then gradually go to english. It was gradual alright, some kids went through their entire school careers without learning english.

It's not discrimination to have to learn English, in spite of what the spaniards will tell you. Without it, you will be severly limited in what you can do here in the U.S.

saycricket,

Believe me, I know a lot about people not speaking proper english, and there are a few surprises too.

One is that at the place I work, they have hired young people from Poland of all places to help out with some of the more menial jobs (crap labor in other words) and these kids can speak english suprisingly well.

I also met a girl from India who came here to the U.S. to get a better education. In spite of being in her early twenties, she could speak English pretty well. Had to admire her for that. Coming to a foreign country, picking up the language, getting an education, living on her own. She was doing good here.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
In a way, it's the same old worry that has plagued Americans every time a new group of foreigners arrive here, but in a way it's different. It seems that spanish speaking peoples are NOT learning the language, being poorly educated. This does nobody any favors, least of all, the spanish speaking people who do come here. Without an education and the ability to speak english, they will never fully avail themselves of the benefits that comes from living in America, they will never be American Citizens.

WOW!!!!!!

I think Darth makes a very good point on this one.

Geez,

FIRST the Red Sox win a world series, NOW Freethinker conceded I may have made a good point.

I'm absolutely stunned!

That was an excellent post Darth. It seems to me that Mexican immigrants learn the language as fast as any group of immigrants does, it may not seem that way however, due to the numbers of immigrants that come here every year from Spanish speaking countries. As always the young will learn the language more quickly than the old, but I think just being here will force an immigrant to learn the language out of sheer convenience.

GW, I can't think of one immigrant I've met, legal or illegal, that believes they should have all the rights of citizens until they get their citizenship.

On the subject of teaching immigrants American History, all immigrants who take the citizenship test are required to show a basic knowledge of our history, and some proficiency with our language...now if only we required that of the people who were born here, we'd be on the right track. :D

Spanish is already the 2nd language of the SouthWest and given time it will be the 1st language. To see it differently is no more than having your head in the sand.

Although there are several reasons why, there's only one that really counts and can/will not be corrected ... the spanish speakers simply refuse to learn/speak english.

Not only is that a problem in the schools, it forces company owners to staff spanish speaking employees and it has become a nightmare for social services, police and fire. You just will not be considered for any of these jobs without some spanish under your belt -- a high fluency level preferred.

In my neighborhood at the Burger King there is not one single non-hispanic employed, including management. They can take your order in english but a majority of the orders are taken in spanish, probably 70% and all the kitchen-bitchen is done is spanish. It has to be this way due to the majority of the customers do not speak english and the Burger King doesn't want to lose their business.

Now take the fireman that's crawling around the burning apartment and finds a hysterical mother ... he'd better be able to communicate with her in spanish so he can find the kids and get them out .. and the police have the same problem and social services in the SW is now 60% spanish speaking centric.

Anyway, here's the deal for what it's worth and whether or not you like it doesn't matter ... spanish will be the 1st language of the SW and eventually the country ... and if you want to live, work and play in this country, you will be espanoling right along with the rest of us.

so dop, they dont have to learn english but we have to learn spanish? why is that? is it because we are so fucking politically correct we cant say no to anything? I dont have a problem learning some spanish, but I would like a little effort on thier part to learn enough english to communicate with me too.

Originally posted by Travh20
so dop, they dont have to learn english but we have to learn spanish? why is that? is it because we are so fucking politically correct we cant say no to anyhting

I'm just the messenger on this one trav so don't take it out on me please ... I don't like it any more than the next person.

Possibly you haven't had enough coffee yet this beautiful morning and didn't entirely understood what I said which was

"they refuse to speak english" which is a lot diffrent than saying they don't have to learn english. See the difference? They just refuse to and say "go ahead and try to make me speak english" to which we say nothing and in fact help them out by supplying all paperwork in spanish, provide interpreters if needed, all signs are now bi-lingual, hire only spanish speakers for most jobs etc etc etc ...

Go with me on this one dude ... if we don't find a way to enforce the use of english .. it's history as the language or our country.

sorry dop, its a hot button issue with me, I agree with what you said about the jobs, as I used to live in Salinas, 90% hispanic farm country. you cant get a job there in any service industry unless you are bilingual. we are to afraid to insisist they learn english, its another caase of or own political correctness and tolerance killing us.

Human communication is an interesting thing.
When in Houston my son and daughter were small. They played with a neighbors Saudi children that spoke no english.
After a few days all four children began to speak to each other in their own language. A mixture of Arabic and English.
Maybe one day the earth language will be a mixture-language.

language is what binds us together as Americans. where else on the earth can you travel 3000 miles and still be in the same country speaking the same language? I can go from california to maine and be able to speak to anyone at any time at any point in between. It is a great thing obviously taken for granted. go over to europe sometime where you travel across a few borders in a few hundred miles and have to learn a new language in every one of them, its not easy. if we lose our cohesive language we will not last as one country anymore, there will be 2 countries. One america, and one more like mexico. i dont know if you hae been to mexico, but there is a reason the mexicans come here, ts becasue they dont want to be in mexico. ANd it will be more like mexico, as there is no push to have these mexicans assimilate into america, they are actually encouraged to act exactly like they would if they lived in mexico. it is a recipe for disaster, and the finest example of the old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Originally posted by Travh20
sorry dop, its a hot button issue with me, I agree with what you said about the jobs, as I used to live in Salinas, 90% hispanic farm country. you cant get a job there in any service industry unless you are bilingual. we are to afraid to insisist they learn english, its another caase of or own political correctness and tolerance killing us.

You used to live in Salinas? What a great place ... isn't that where Janice says Bobby McGee slipped away? and isn't it the hometown of John Steinbeck?

OTOH, I heard they're closing the libraries for lack of funds.

Funny world we live in.

how would they get funds if nobody there speaks english? why would a town 90%hispanic speakers need an english library?

and yes, it is the bobby mgee town and steinbeck hometown

I guess my point was ... closing libraries in Steinbeck's hometown -- sad.

BTW: I have relatives in Stockton and have spent quite a bit of time there over the past 30 years ... Stockton is another good example of where america is headed.

LOL, stockton is a crap holeof epic proportions, almost as bad as Lodi or manteca

Originally posted by Travh20
language is what binds us together as Americans. where else on the earth can you travel 3000 miles and still be in the same country speaking the same language? I can go from california to maine and be able to speak to anyone at any time at any point in between. It is a great thing obviously taken for granted. go over to europe sometime where you travel across a few borders in a few hundred miles and have to learn a new language in every one of them, its not easy. if we lose our cohesive language we will not last as one country anymore, there will be 2 countries. One america, and one more like mexico. i dont know if you hae been to mexico, but there is a reason the mexicans come here, ts becasue they dont want to be in mexico. ANd it will be more like mexico, as there is no push to have these mexicans assimilate into america, they are actually encouraged to act exactly like they would if they lived in mexico. it is a recipe for disaster, and the finest example of the old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Geese trav, This is the most intellegent post you have ever made. Better watch yourself, there might be hope for you yet. :)

I agree echo -- and meant to mention it up-thread ... forgot to

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Unfortunately, the type of people that would declare themselves "minutemen" and march off to guard the border are the same types of people that are likely to do something stupid.
With any luck, the Coyotes (down there) will help thin-out a significant number of the white-trash Aryan Brotherhood (that's flocking down there, to help patrol)! :)

LOL shaman -- yeah, wait until these dudes have to spend a few days in the 120 degree sonoran desert. Watch how fast they catch the next train outta town.

The coyotes are dirty scum fucks too. It wont be a negative thing if they start shooting at each other, unless of course some one gets hit in the crossfire.

now if only we required that of the people who were born here, we'd be on the right track. Bwhahahaaa. "Its funny cause its true"...and sad.

A guy at the Shisha bar told me this one:
What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages - trilingual
" 2 languages - biligual
" 1 language - American

It'd be nice if Americans learned English as well as some of the immgrants. It be nice if most Americans would learn how to speak a second language as well.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have to learn english. I'm just saying that this NT approach is useless. If you expect a kid to learn English in a year then he better not be held accountable for his school work since he doesnt know what the hell is being said half the year. Like I was saying the parents don't always speak english but the kids almost always do. There is no way that Spanish will re-take the SW as long as the US is here.

most of these people live along the border so they know how hot it gets, also, I am glad to see shaman is in favor of criminals killing off people simply trying to enforce laws that their own government will not for fear of being labled a racist by some left wing pressure group

Originally posted by Travh20
most of these people live along the border so they know how hot it gets, also,

I just got back from there yesterday ... and here's the deal ...

The foundation of this group, for the most part, lives in the border area but many of the grunts are coming in from out of state. It's a once in a life-time chance to arm-up and play real soldier of fortune for these people. I suspect the novelty will wear off soon or the coyotes/mules will start getting serious and taking these lightweights out -- one at a time. They have a multi-million dollar venture going along the border and a bunch of weekend warriors aren't going to take it away from them. Wait until the south/central american gangs show up ... that's when the shit will hit the fan.

Just my 3 cents

Originally posted by Travh20
I am glad to see shaman is in favor of criminals killing off people simply trying to enforce laws that their own government will not......
Yeah........the defenders of racial-purity (http://www.meta-religion.com/Extremism/White_extremism/Silent_brotherhood/silent_brotherhood.htm); another example of what's great about America!!! :@@:

I'm sure they appreciate your support.

there are always the idiots like shaman who equate enforcing laws to racism. no one is scared of your labels shaman. This shows that people are sick of people like you trying to bully them with labels. they are sick of their representatives and president bowing to pressure groups for fear of being labeled. they are sick of it. hollow promises and half assed enforcement of the law have driven these citizens over the edge.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
LOL shaman -- yeah, wait until these dudes have to spend a few days in the 120 degree sonoran desert. Watch how fast they catch the next train outta town.
I'm pretty-certain they're bigger fans of pick-up trucks (http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HatCr_51/3177-51.asp). :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Travh20
there are always the idiots like shaman who equate enforcing laws to racism.
Yeah.........like Krystalnacht, huh??? :@@:

Originally posted by Travh20
I used to live in Salinas, 90% hispanic farm country. you cant get a job there in any service industry unless you are bilingual.
......And, what.........you weren't qualified to pick strawberries?????????

Gee........it must have been a real heartbreaker, not getting that job!!

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Wait until the south/central american gangs show up ... that's when the shit will hit the fan.
No doubt!

Mara 13; the orphans of Reagan's Central American bloodbath!!

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
Yeah........the defenders of racial-purity (http://www.meta-religion.com/Extremism/White_extremism/Silent_brotherhood/silent_brotherhood.htm); another example of what's great about America!!!

You call them the **defenders of racial purity***........the GOP calls them their base!

I would --if it could somehow be determined-- bet every cent I own that the people refered to in the *racial puirty* link voted overwhelmingly for the (fascist) Bush Government.

Apparently the minutemen are causing a few problems out there, albeit nothing major.

Tripping sensors (http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3164935&nav=HMO6YJ9u)

Dear Everyman,

Yes, I am down here sitting on a 1986 Chevy Scotsdale with my handy flashlite, peanut butter sandwich, and gameboy. Didnt see anything yet. Heard some noise about 300 feet away; deer!! Yesterday, me and Buzz flushed out a family of pilgrims. They was so nicity that Buzz talked me into letting them go across. They says they worked for Old Man Fears. We joked that we worked for Old Man Fear too. Well, feet up on the dash and looking cool tonight here in illegal immigrant country. One thing I learned is that they are sure slick and hard to find ,but, when you find them, they break your heart. God look down on the illegal immigrant and give him or her assylm in Heaven. Amen.

The foundation of this group, for the most part, lives in the border area but many of the grunts are coming in from out of state. Actually most of the organizers didn't live hear either. The bigots came from Texas and set up shop here. Chris Simcox has numerous associations with racist groups

If they are so worried about immigration rather than racial purity, why are they not patroling the canadian boarder? That boarder has more illegals crossing it daily than the mexican boarder. Of course that is a fact that redneck, gun tot'n, tabaco chewin' troglidates seem to not want to think about. That is when they bother to think at all.

LMFAO, ya echo, the candian border has more illegals crossing it everyday then the mexican border, whatever.

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE, seriously??? Do laws not apply when they fly in the face of some half-baked, dimwitted liberal ideology? When have we, as a populous, met our tolerance threshold? Who are you to call the people who've taken it upon themselves to protect our borders bigots and racists? Clue phone for you dumb fucks: IT'S OUR GOVERNMENTS JOB, AND THEY'RE NOT DOING IT. I don't care what the individual motivation is for the "coyotes" out there securing our country's borders, the fact is, IT'S THE LAW - deal with it, you overly sensitive pussies.

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE, seriously??? Do laws not apply when they fly in the face of some half-baked, dimwitted liberal ideology?

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal."
--Martin Luther King Jr.

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
Louis D. Brandeis

Your "but its the law" argument is pathetic and quite possibly the weakest argument ever.

How about "but they are human beings". I guess that holds no merit against "but its the law" in your book.

On the project - Its hilarious that they are impeding the border patrols ability to do its job.

And by the mexicans government count crossings have halved. Down to 200 a week. How many immigrants did the MM spot 20? And they're only gonna be out there for a month. What a waste of time.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7408501/

Maybe theyre are finding out that the border patrol actually is doing its job. It just happens to be an impossible job.

Remember that the reps scream from the roof that they are pro life. But when poor people try to come to this country to make a better life for themselves and their children they take their pick-ups and shotguns and go guard the boarders to keep them out.

They scream about keeping unwanted fetus's alive yet once the fetus is born they don't want to help it out in any way. Cut moneys for head start, cut aid to dependant children, cut programs that help the needy and poor.

It is all about their greed and sky fairy idealogies. sound like you mean it but act differently. force others to live by your idealogies but don't lend a helping hand.

we are protecting the borders so we don't become the boarders

Originally posted by Travh20
we are protecting the borders so we don't become the boarders

Nice play on words.

Originally posted by Travh20
we are protecting the borders so we don't become the boarders

Excellent! The far-left loves easy to digest simplistic sloganeering!

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Excellent! The far-left loves easy to digest simplistic sloganeering!
We do? :o

no blood for oil!!!!

not in my name!!

bush knew planes flew!!!

bush lied people died!!!!

Hey Hey!! ho ho!! Bush regime has got to go!!

fascist!!!!

Exactly.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Exactly.
Wait, a few bumper stickers and slogans the far left uses means that everyone on the far left uses them? Dosen't every political agenda have their slogans? And, the reason there are so many short slogans now, is because there is a WAR. In a protest you don't have enough time to write out a huge opinion on a sign. So you come up with simple slogans to show your point of view. Why is that bad? Have you ever seen the far-right religious protesters? If the far left uses slogans, so does the far right.

If anyone says bush doesn't have an amnest program for illegals ... well read this ... it may be a back-door approach to amnesty but it's amnesty nonetheless

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=8e5def74eb899f80

how long before a american born is the minority in our own armed forces ???

Here's a good article on the cost of illegal immigration

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=90333

Originally posted by Overdose
Have you ever seen the far-right religious protesters?

ya, they are idiots with idiotic signs too, does that mean the left wingers signs somehow are not dumb?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal."
--Martin Luther King Jr.
Great parallel, genius. :rolleyes: Drinking from a water fountain is free, but do you cut in line to do it? No, and in this particular situation, despite its illegality, you justify it under the guise that we're operating like Nazis by forcing them to use legal channels. Whatever -
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
Louis D. Brandeis
Keep fighting that noble cause, Che...
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Your "but its the law" argument is pathetic and quite possibly the weakest argument ever.
Yeah, tell that to a judge…:rolleyes:

You wouldn't know a weak argument if it came up and bit you in the ass, you ponce.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
How about "but they are human beings". I guess that holds no merit against "but its the law" in your book.
And what bearing does that have, seriously? Human beings need to eat, too - does that mean that they can just walk into your home and raid your refrigerator because they're hungry? Absolutely not, or are the laws that protect a citizen's rights only for Fascist nations? Let me ask you something, 500: what civilized country allows a person to enter without the proper documentation? Take your time.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Maybe theyre are finding out that the border patrol actually is doing its job. It just happens to be an impossible job.
Not with walls, electrified fences, dogs, armed guards, and a big fucking "Ninguna violación bajo pena de MUERTE" sign - it's not.

Originally posted by Echo2
Remember that the reps scream from the roof that they are pro life. But when poor people try to come to this country to make a better life for themselves and their children they take their pick-ups and shotguns and go guard the boarders to keep them out.
And how are the two scenarios even remotely similar? Securing our nation's borders and protecting our citizen's lives are directly correlated as I see it. I suppose you thought you had a point in the bizzaro world of confounded, foggy Echoisms, but then again, I suspect this comparison was a stretch for even you.
Originally posted by Echo2
They scream about keeping unwanted fetus's alive yet once the fetus is born they don't want to help it out in any way. Cut moneys for head start, cut aid to dependant children, cut programs that help the needy and poor.
Okay, Echo - I get it...now you're FOR social programs. Trav's right - you are a walking contradiction, lady, and a mass of wailing inanity, too boot.

Moderate, my ass - you're just too stupid to make up your mind. Is staying consistent on any given issue really that difficult?

Originally posted by Overdose
Wait, a few bumper stickers and slogans the far left uses means that everyone on the far left uses them?

If enough of them do it, then at some point a generalization becomes pretty close to the truth. But no, not everyone on the far left uses them.

Originally posted by Overdose
Dosen't every political agenda have their slogans? And, the reason there are so many short slogans now, is because there is a WAR.

Sure, but usually not cute rhyming ones.

Originally posted by Overdose
In a protest you don't have enough time to write out a huge opinion on a sign. So you come up with simple slogans to show your point of view. Why is that bad?

I'm not going to argue opinions. It bugs some people and not others. Suffice it to say after hearing a billion "hey hey, ho ho, blah blah blah has got to go" and "2, 4, 6, 8, stop the , stop the hate." I find myself wishing for something a little more interesting.

Originally posted by Overdose
[B]Have you ever seen the far-right religious protesters? If the far left uses slogans, so does the far right.

Honestly, I've not seen the far-right using rhyming overly simplistic slogans. I can't really think of any slogans at all off the top of my head, although I have no doubt that they use them. But they seem to prefer disgusting pictures of dead fetuses and such things.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Honestly, I've not seen the far-right using rhyming overly simplistic slogans. I can't really think of any slogans at all off the top of my head, although I have no doubt that they use them. But they seem to prefer disgusting pictures of dead fetuses and such things.

Maybe they don't chant cute slogans but they sky-write Jesus messages over the skies of Florida and other fundy, right wing states.

WTF is the difference?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
But they seem to prefer disgusting pictures of dead fetuses and such things.
As opposed to war torn Iraqis, of which, no one knows who definitively killed them, but with regards to late term abortions, everyone knows who the culprits are.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
WTF is the difference?
Nothing really - I suppose they're both annoying, but can you give me some examples (not that I'm doubting you - just curious).

Originally posted by LionelHutz
[B]Honestly, I've not seen the far-right using rhyming overly simplistic slogans. I can't really think of any slogans at all off the top of my head, although I have no doubt that they use them. /B] I do recall 3000 or so Republicans shouting in unison, "Flip! Flop! Flip! Flop! Flip! Flop!" It doesn't rhyme but it's just as simplistic and stupid.

Originally posted by Jester
I do recall 3000 or so Republicans shouting in unison, "Flip! Flop! Flip! Flop! Flip! Flop!" It doesn't rhyme but it's just as simplistic and stupid.

Well I knew there had to be at least one! :)

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Well I knew there had to be at least one! :)

How about "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" :D

Originally posted by Vilepagan
How about "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" :D

Ah yes. Particularly simplistic and it even rhymes. Maybe the far left just needs to get some new simplistic slogans. :)

Looks like the neo-nazi, white supremicist vigilantes are in full swing now ...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20050407/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers

"Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
That's absolutely hysterical...

The fact that he made an illegal alien sport that shirt isn't only funny, it's painfully appropriate. These people know what they're doing is wrong, and if their only penance for breaking the law is to talk to a sheriff, get a free meal, and be interviewed by the ACLU, then I say our priorities are pretty fucked up. He wasn't hurt, starved, beaten, or harassed, and even if he were, he's still an illegal, and thusly, isn’t subject to due process.

Btw, the ACLU has taken an interest in this circus, and meanwhile, I guess they still haven't figured out what the A stands for...classic.

Yeah, sounds like real hardened Nazi shit to me, Dop...:rolleyes:

Who gave this redneck from out of town the right to decide who is illegal and who isn't? How did he decide? The color of the person's skin ... more than likely.

You people are disgusting. Every damn one of you has immigrant blood in you. (unless you are full blooded American Indian). My Father came here from Ireland as a child, My grandmother came from Scotland and my great grandfather cam from germany.

If there were peole like these idiots stalking the shores and boarders of this country when our ancesters came here, we wouldn't exist.

Land of the brave and home of the free my ass. More like land of the rednecks and home of the bullies.

Originally posted by Echo2
You people are disgusting. Every damn one of you has immigrant blood in you. (unless you are full blooded American Indian). My Father came here from Ireland as a child, My grandmother came from Scotland and my great grandfather cam from germany. There aren't too many people who want to stop legal immigration, which is, i assume, how your family came here. But immigration laws are there for a reason and most people who want to stop illegal immigration just want to see those laws upheld.

Originally posted by Jester
There aren't too many people who want to stop legal immigration, which is, i assume, how your family came here. But immigration laws are there for a reason and most people who want to stop illegal immigration just want to see those laws upheld.

Tell that to bush -- he's the person that has the power to do something about the situation. Instead, he has opened the borders, enlisted 50,000 illegals (30,000 of which are now legal) into the military and is getting ready to offer carte blanche amnesty.

Bush has become the immigration president. Blame him.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Tell that to bush -- he's the person that has the power to do something about the situation. Instead, he has opened the borders, enlisted 50,000 illegals (30,000 of which are now legal) into the military and is getting ready to offer carte blanche amnesty.

Bush has become the immigration president. Blame him.
Very, very true, Dop - and I'd love to spit in his eye over this debacle. I hate the way politicians (dem and repub) sell their souls for votes, and that's exactly what Bush has done in this regard. I hate his current immigration policy, period. Fucking democrat.

Originally posted by Jester
There aren't too many people who want to stop legal immigration, which is, i assume, how your family came here. But immigration laws are there for a reason and most people who want to stop illegal immigration just want to see those laws upheld.
Thank you, once again, Jester, for the sensible post. Give it a gander, Echo, and stfu.

Before you get your panties in a knot prae, I am totally on your side about this. I just don't understand why some peole feel the need to resort to vigilanteism(sp?). It's so redneckish.

Personally I think we should have military bases all around our boardes. No one comes in without a passport or visa and anyone here illegally should be deported immediatly. Illegals should not be allowed any public assistance and their kids should not be allowed in public school. No drivers licence, no rental agreement, no credit, nada.

If we take away the carrot, the rabbits won't run as fast.

He wasn't hurt, starved, beaten, or harassed, and even if he were, he's still an illegal, and thusly, isn’t subject to due process. Lets see armed thugs in the middle of the desert tell you to pose with a shirt, what would you do? Prea your a damn liar and you know it, they did harrass this guy. At the start they said that they were just gonna call BP on them. Guess that went out the window...

So for those that support the minute men what about NAFTA?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
So for those that support the minute men what about NAFTA?
I'm not sure I understand the parallel...

What does free trade have to do with people entering this country illegally?

Originally posted by Echo2
Before you get your panties in a knot prae, I am totally on your side about this. I just don't understand why some peole feel the need to resort to vigilanteism(sp?). It's so redneckish.


Vigilantes existed before rednecks. They typically come into existance when the government isn't enforcing the law. That's exactly the trouble with illegal immigration.

Here ya go -- the vigilantes are now holding people at gunpoint.

Even in Arizona that is illegal and even if the dude has a carry permit he's only allowed to clear leather if his life is threatened and he must use the weapon to save his life. None of that was the case here.

This dude is in maricopa county jail for fucking with some beaners??? I hope for his sake they have him in isolation or he won't live to see his next birthday.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0413detain13.html

Cline said Haab is a "very typical and normal guy" who liked to carry handguns and often wore a Glock pistol in a holster. Normal people don't like to carry a gun with them everywhere they go.

He said his friend acted like a soldier, assessing the decision and taking quick action, just like he was trained to do. And to control every situation with the threat of death.

I don't really like the phrasing of the article and its whole focus on what illegal. More imporat is what would he have done if they still tried to leave. More likely than not he would have shot at them. This guy is a psycho trying to play a hero. All he had to do was get a description of the vehicle and the license plate.

Said on the news of Haab that he was not associated with the minuteman project. I say this guy used extreme measures.
What I chuckled at was the fact that the illegals wanted to press charges.

Hope the wet-backs carry the news back to Mexico with them.

Also, saw on the news that Laredo College on the Texas border is going to erect a 10 foot fence in hopes of keeping illegals and drug smugglers off campus. Police confiscated 50 lbs. of drugs left on the tennis courts of the campus by illegals in one incident.

NAFTA and illegal immigration:
http://www.siliconv.com/trade/tradepapers/immigration.html

What this article fails to mention is that Mexican farmers (as well as all farmers under free trade) cannot compete with SUSIDIZED agribusiness. Its not that they are importing large quanities so mush as that they are getting money from the US taxpayer whihc artificially drive the price of grain down. The US taxpayer is paying to starve foreign farmers and padding the profits of agri-business. As it goes wiht most things in America. Socialism for business, capitalism for everyone else.

wet-backs Fuck you Cracker.

I'm in Phoenix at this very minute and reading the articles in the Arizona Republic and it appears even the far right is trying to distance themselves from this guy.

This is freaking hillarious considering AZ is the most gun-loving/owning state in the country.

On NAFTA/FTAA's new fuedalism:
http://www.newint.org/issue374/facts.htm

On Subsidies:
http://www.aworldconnected.org/article.php/489.html

Its hilarious because the US was whining about susidies because Europe was susidizing the AirBus. Hardly something that will make people die of starvation. As oppossed to excessive US agribusiness subsidies that kill untold numbers of people.

Its also funny how those who opposse "free trade" are called 'anti-globalizationists' When in fact they are pure globalizationists seeking to destroy not just barriers to trade but barriers to people as well.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Fuck you Cracker.
Just out of curiosity, what are your nationalities?

I would he is probably say half jackass and half chicken

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Fuck you Cracker. [/B]
----------------------------------------------

500 lbs of whatever,
I suppose you were speaking to me.
The term wet-back is used for anyone swimming the Rio Grande and coming out wet. Is not a racial term. Was not used as such.

The term "cracker" is a racial term.
Those of us with IQ's above our age number refrain from using such.

Looks like the chief dickhead of the AZ minutemen is getting out of dodge. He says "mission accomplished" -- where have I heard that before?

Actually you can sum up this article in one sentence ...

"Jeebus friggin keeeeyrist ... waddya mean it gets to be 120 degrees here?"

Told ya they'd be booking pronto when the Sonoran desert summer begins to set in. BWAhahahahahahaha

ROTFLMAO

http://www.fresnobee.com/24hour/nation/story/2320272p-10537783c.html

dop, its april, its 83 degrees, not 120

temperature (http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USAZ0247.html)