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Darth Be'lal
03-29-2005, 11:08 PM
This article is by Thomas Friedman, and was featured in a local newspaper (it's aslo why I stopped buying that newspaper and have resorted to picking up copies left behind in the cafeteria), I'll do a brief synopsis of the article, then go through my thoughts why I disagree with just about every single thing in it, then I'll link to it so you can read it for yourself.

The article starts out with the usual leftist Bush bashing (it's customary now amongst the Left, kinda like having to take your hat off when you enter a building). There he is, ol'Bush, trying to privatize social security and destroy the New Deal while serious problems are on the horizon. In this instance, it's the energy crisis. OH, did I mention that Bush has done NOTHING to ease our dependence on oil.

THEN he goes on about how using oil does strengthen and nourishes the despotic leaders in the Mid East and in Venezuala.

And if that's not enough, there are some 800 million cars in use today, when India and China modernize, sometime around 2050, it'll be 3.25 billion cars all contributing to global warming.

So what to do about it. Friedman calls it a "geo-green" strategy that would marry geopolitics, energy policy and environmentalism.' Here's his little gems of a proposal.

First off, TAX gas use. Gas should be four bucks a gallon, no matter what it costs for crude oil.

Secondly, nuclear power plants need to be contructed and implemented. The less fossil fuels we use, the less greenhouse gasses goes up into the atmoshpere.

A "carbon tax" on any and all power plants that emit "greenhouse gasses." This would encourage corporations to use cleaner sources of fuels such as windpower, hydroelectric dams and solar power.

Then Friedman has the utter gall to these strategies "smart fiscal and climate philosophy."

What it is a huge boondoggle.

Let me do the reality check.

First off, the only parts of Friedman's little proposals that the liberals would stand for would be the tax increases. That is the only thing that would get passed. And if that happened? WELL, anybody working nowadays already knows that about a quarter of one's income is already taken off the top in taxes. That is before state income tax, sales tax, property tax and car tax. Add in these, and it's now more like HALF of your income would go for taxes, because that tax would then be applied to just about every single thing you do. Pick up groceries at the supermarket? The tax levied on fossil fuels would be added to every single thing you bought because the things you buy have to get there using fossil fuels. Turn on the light at home? You'll pay as much in taxes as you would in electricity. You'd have less money, so you'd spend less and the economy would go south, fast. THEN there is the added blow of jobs being lost. We complain about jobs going overseas. Why would a company stay here in America and pay the high prices for power when it can go to China or India and pay half the costs in power and a quarter in labor costs. So there go the jobs. Oh, and that reminds me, don't think for a moment that the Chinese (or India or Russia for that matter) will turn "green" and start doing things environmentally sound. Their only concern will be price per barrell for oil. If there's one thing the Chi-Coms do NOT stand for, it's for other people to mess with them. You can get the U.N. and the Euros to whine about global warming and suggest a Kyoto Treaty with them or whatnot and the Chi-Coms will go and tell the U.N. and the Euros to go kiss their ass! Basically, all the Euros and the U.N. would do at that point is to tell the Chinese to bend over! So, while our economy gets wrecked, the developing Nation's economy will get stronger.

About alternative sources of power:

Hell will freeze over the day a new Nuclear power plant gets built here in the U.S. (Maybe THAT will stop global warming) The environmentalist wackos are already throwing fits about the nuclear waste storage facility at Yucca Mountain, do you honestly think they'll stand for a new Nuclear plant being built? We'll hear all about nuclear meltdowns and the China Syndrome and Chernobyl and isn't it just easier to tax gas some more? So THAT'S a no go.

Wind Energy? Nope! Apparently wind turbines kill birds, lots of them, and places that have the kind of wind needed to make electricity (read off the coast of Cape Cod, where the rich and powerful live) are strictly off limits. I could see a Wind electrical farm being built in downtown Hobboken New Jersey amidst the dumpsters and desolate buildings, but not where it would clutter up the view of the open ocean that the Pilgrims saw (again, read off the coast of Cape Cod).

Hydroelectric Energy? No again! This time I actually agree with the environmentalist wackos. Dams wreak absolute havoc with fish populations as well as insect life that lives on and under the water (I'm a fly fisherman and am well acquainted with what lives in a free flowing river) PLUS you have the problems of silt build up, the accumulations of salt in the western U.S. So, that's a no go as well.

Solar energy? An absolute joke! I've been hearing the promise of how great solar energy is since I was a kid and watching "3-2-1 Contact" and they have NEVER made a solar farm that actually turned a profit. They only work in deserts, take up acres and acres of space and have a tendency to NOT work when the sun goes down or when it rains.

Back to taxes. I really, really loathe the idea of our government cloaking itself in idealism and using that as an excuse to tax people others deem are doing polictically incorrect things like driving. Taxes are for funding the government, not as an instrument of social change, that idea doesn't work. Look what happened when Big Tobacco got sued. The money was supposed to be used to print out pamphlets informing Joe Citizen that, yes, smoking is bad for you and for cancer research. It is NOW being used to plug holes in state deficits and for pork. With those kind of uses for tobacco taxes, do you honestly feel that ANYBODY in power really wish for smokers to quit? It would be the same thing with a gasoline and "carbon" tax.


About Bush not doing a dam thing for the environment. Friedman conveniently (gotta love memory lapses) forgets that Bush has proposed some 1.2 BILLION to fund a "Freedom Car" This is a vehicle that uses hydrogen for power. I think it's a great idea but for two things. We can't effeciently seperate hydrogen from water of fossil fuels and we can't get hydrogen from escaping whatever container it's placed in. Other than that, it's a great idea! Dammit.

What would I do if I had control of the U.S. energy policy?

First off, start drilling for oil, there's plenty in ANWR, the Gulf of Mexico and off the coast of California. I'd get serious about meeting our needs for oil.

I WOULD have more Nuclear power plants built, and get the Yucca facility up and running.

Find a way to exploit shale oil. I'd put a tarriff on foreign sources of oil to protect a fledgeling shale oil business, and I'd find a way to exploit the tar sands in Canada. There's also artificial petroluem.

More trash to energy plants. We have two locally where I live. Americans produce plenty of garbage, which can be made into plenty of energy, dammit.

Looking into converting cars to use natural gas or propane. That DOES work, produces way less emmissions and makes cars last longer than those running on gasoline.


Friedman article is why I don't trust the Left to run our country. Because they will talk bravely about new sources of energy and all that, but in the end, all they will do is raise taxes.

Dammit.


Friedman Article (http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5317111.html)

Freedom Car (http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/engineFuelTechnology/freedomCar.htm)

Freethinker
03-29-2005, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Darth Be'lal

The article starts out with the usual leftist Bush bashing (it's customary now amongst the Left, kinda like having to take your hat off when you enter a building). There he is, ol'Bush, trying to privatize social security and destroy the New Deal while serious problems are on the horizon.

One thing that RightWing imbeciles like you can NEVER seem to grasp is that it is NOT "bashing" when you're telling the TRUTH about someone or their policies.

Bush IS trying to privatize Social Security.

Bush IS intent on destroying any remnant of "New Deal" style democracy that remains in this country, in order to further enrich the wealthy Corporate benefactors who paid to have this mental retardate installed as leader.

[i]Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
OH, did I mention that Bush has done NOTHING to ease our dependence on oil.

Which is the goddamned TRUTH, you poor deluded flagwaver.



Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
THEN he goes on about how using oil does strengthen and nourishes the despotic leaders in the Mid East and in Venezuala.

Ok.

It's TRUE. Every sane human being --which evidently leaves you out of the mix-- in America KNOWS it's true.

So far, you have ZERO refutation of anything Freidman has talked about.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
And if that's not enough, there are some 800 million cars in use today, when India and China modernize, sometime around 2050, it'll be 3.25 billion cars all contributing to global warming.

Ok. More truth.

Try to refute the FACTS imparted by that statement.


Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Let me do the reality check.

First off, the only parts of Friedman's little proposals that the liberals would stand for would be the tax increases.

Intellectual dishonesty abounds.

I have seen some mighty strawmen constructed before, but this one may be the fucking King of them all.

You choose to DISMISS all the other proposals, and select one, one your own, to be the ONLY one that the "wacko librulls" would support.....THEN, you try to construct an argument against that one thing.

Something tells me you did not finish at the top of the debate class.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Friedman article is why I don't trust the Left to run our country.

Just so you know, Sparky....you have not refuted or addressed ONE thing in the Freidman article in an honest way.

But then, you're a Rightwinger. You are incapable of it.

Decka
03-30-2005, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Freethinker
Just so you know, Sparky....you have not refuted or addressed ONE thing in the Freidman article in an honest way.



Oh.. and YOU just address EVERYTHING so honestly LOL....

its like the donkey telling the elephant "you can't fly!"..... well duh....neither can you ass.

Freethinker
03-30-2005, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Decka

its like the donkey telling the elephant "you can't fly!".....

I have made no claim to have addressed the Freidman article, or the points he raises.

Darth has made that claim.

Leper
03-30-2005, 02:20 AM
Darth, I have several semi-related points in response to your post...

You know, I wouldn't even know about environmentalists raising hell about windmills if you weren't raising so much hell about it. Maybe you're the wacko, because as a member of environmental organization, none of the members of my organization have complained about windmills. You need to realize that there are many different kinds of environmentalists out there, and if you attribute the voice of each individual to the entire category, of course it won't make sense to you.

The guy in the article has a lot of good ideas (none of which are his own), regardless of partisanship.

Furthermore, you can impose a gas tax or "carbon" tax without raising taxes pretty easily. You see, you counter the extra tax by reducing another tax, such as income tax. I know, it's an outlandish idea, but it can be done, so don't assume the author wants to raise taxes generally. Of course, considering our budget deficits these days, raising taxes would be a fiscally responsible thing to do.

Finally, I think nuclear power would garner a lot of support today. The paranoid craze of the seventies resulting in the cesation of expanding nuclear power is over and I think a lot of people, including environmentalists like the author of that article or myself, would recognize the benefits of such a transition.

Oh yeah, as for hydroelectric power, it's still a good thing. We just need to revamp dam designs to make them less ecologically invasive, and that is being done.

GW_Rules
03-30-2005, 07:45 AM
Freethinker,

Did you say lower income tax to offset a carbon tax? I'm impressed. Since you belong to an environment group I bet you have some strong opinions on drilling here in America.

BorgHunter
03-30-2005, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
First off, TAX gas use. Gas should be four bucks a gallon, no matter what it costs for crude oil.[/URL]
Bravo! I'm definitely in favor of gas taxes. They're absolutely voluntary. Now, I would hope that if gas taxes go up, then income taxes go down...

saycricket
03-30-2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Leper
You see, you counter the extra tax by reducing another tax, such as income tax....Of course, considering our budget deficits these days, raising taxes would be a fiscally responsible thing to do. I agree with the countering measure, but without it, we put the squeeze on middle-class Americans s'more.
Originally posted by Darth Be'Lal
WELL, anybody working nowadays already knows that about a quarter of one's income is already taken off the top in taxes. That is before state income tax, sales tax, property tax and car tax. Add in these, and it's now more like HALF of your income would go for taxes, because that tax would then be applied to just about every single thing you do. 1/4 of one's income? Lately it seems more like a 1/3 to 40%.

And, on the tax being applied to everything...Don't look now, but it's already happening. At least that's what the butcher, baker and candlestick makers in our local neighborhood say in response to the public outcry of higher prices. They blame it on the rising fuel costs which, in turn, come out of our pockets AGAIN.

500lbguerilla
03-30-2005, 02:00 PM
THEN he goes on about how using oil does strengthen and nourishes the despotic leaders in the Mid East and in Venezuala. Hugo Chavez is not a despot. He was democratically elected AND democratically maintained after a recall. The US throught the IRI (McCain) tried to cause a coup to benefit the oil elites in the country. It lasted 3 days and the head of the countries oil company was dictated to be president. Too bad for the republofascists venezuelans believe in real democracy and took to the streets. Surrounding the real despots and chased them out of the palace. Chavez was reinstated through popular revolt. He is no despot. Hes raised the minimum wage, hired thousands of teachers and built huindreds of schools. He just doesnt like US imperialism so the US tries to overthrow him and smear him every chance they can.

For more see:
The revolution will not be televised
and
The Fourth World War

Teddy
03-30-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by BorgHunter
Bravo! I'm definitely in favor of gas taxes. They're absolutely voluntary. Now, I would hope that if gas taxes go up, then income taxes go down...

Let's see...if you increase gas taxes and there is no other alternative source of energy...they only outcome will be that high/middle class people would be the only one able to pay for gas (and they will as they will have still to use their cars to go to work, shopping..). Very nice to penalize the poorest just to "improve" the environment...I would rather plant more trees.

If you increase gas taxes and at the same time decrease income taxes, the consumers will have the same buying power so they will still consume as much gas as they need so still the same pollution. Unless the increase of gas taxes is greater than the decrease on income taxes which it will again favour the richests...

Teddy
03-30-2005, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Hugo Chavez is not a despot.

Read some current history. He did try to overthrow a former democratic government using part of the army (the one loyal to him). After a while in jail, he was elected and afterwards he also won a referendum. Of course, you forgot to say about the new laws against free of speech in the press. A journalist now can go to jail if they say something not to Chavez's taste.
Some people living in favelas are starting to be fed up because they have not seen any improve in their living standards, I could give you some links but they are in Spanish.

Darth Be'lal
03-30-2005, 06:25 PM
Freethinker,

Let me spell it out for you. My main point of refutation is that the only proposals that Friedman made that would be implemented would be the tax increases. Let me repeat that: the ONLY proposals that Friedman suggested that would be implemented would be the tax increases. THAT was the main the thrust of my post. I've also noted that YOU, freethinker, did not disagree with any of my reasons why windmill energy farms, solar energy farms, nuclear power plants or hydro electric power would NOT be implemented as part of a plan to generate more electricity. Furthermore, as is typical of you, you've failed to note that Bush DID do something about our dependence on foreign oil, he has funded research using hydrogen as a fuel. Do you actually read my posts and follow my links, or do you just blather? Also I said that I would do a brief synopsis of Friedman's article, checking off the reasons for a new energy strategem. I'm guessing you failed to notice that one, buckwheat. So, no, during a synopsis I would not agree or disagree with what Friedman wrote, I would just tick off the major points he read.


As for you Leper,

There WAS a proposal, a serious one, to build massive windmills off the coast of Cape Cod to supply energy to Massechussetts. This, in my knowledge, would've been the first truly large scale wind electric generating plant done on a massive scale. And it got shot down, because it would ruin the view (you could only see these things on a VERY clear day and only as a smudge on the horizon) and that the wind generators would kill birds. I'm sick and tired of hearing all these wonderful things alternative energy is going to do, then nothing is done, except raise taxes. And before you start calling others names, leper, do some research and get on the same page that others are on, dammit. Or do I have to post a link that you won't bother to read?

As far as this absolute BILGE about raising taxes on gas only to lower them on income, I haven't got the slightest clue where you guys get that idea at. That simply doesn't happen, a new source of revenue is found and just added to the others. The idea of raising taxes on gas is to PUNISH those who drive a lot, it just isn't much of a punishment if taxes go up in one area only to come down in another, is it? And I see none of you has disputed that the prices of EVERYTHING will go up. That will sour the economy, and jobs will be lost. Keep in mind that someone poor and struggling will be even worse off if they have to pay such "green" taxes. And I did mention that China, Russia and India are NOT going allow such taxes to drain THEIR economies.


Dammit.

Freethinker
03-30-2005, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by GW_Rules
Freethinker,

Did you say lower income tax to offset a carbon tax? I'm impressed. Since you belong to an environment group I bet you have some strong opinions on drilling here in America.

I believe you're confusing me with Leper.

But yes, i happen to think drilling ANWR is a horrendously bad idea.

From the studies I have read, it has, at best, six months worth of oil.

I also read somewhere that 95% of that wilderness area IS open to drilling, yet the Big Oil Corporatistas [and their pathetic lapdogs in Congress] demand we drill in the 5% set aside for a wildlife refuge.

Maybe they're just trying to demonstrate their absolute power.

Darth Be'lal
03-30-2005, 06:41 PM
Thank you freethinker, your quote:

"But yes, i happen to think drilling ANWR is a horrendously bad idea.

From the studies I have read, it has, at best, six months worth of oil.

I also read somewhere that 95% of that wilderness area IS open to drilling, yet the Big Oil Corporatistas [and their pathetic lapdogs in Congress] demand we drill in the 5% set aside for a wildlife refuge.

Maybe they're just trying to demonstrate their absolute power."

For strengthening my main point. People will talk a good talk about ending our dependence on foreign sources of oil but, in the end, they just want to do nothing. Drilling in ANWR? Well no we can't do that, it's a wildlife refuge (never mind that the part of ANWR that would be drilled looks like moonscape). Pretty much the same arguments off the coast of California and in parts of the Gulf of Mexico. For that matter, the environmentalist wackos throw fits over the Yucca Mountain nuclear storage sites (so much for using nuclear power) and they'd go nuts if a new oil refinery was proposed or if shale oil was ever exploited.

Talk is great, but it's not going to solve our energy problems, dammit.

Freethinker
03-30-2005, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
People will talk a good talk about ending our dependence on foreign sources of oil but, in the end, they just want to do nothing.

Goddamn it, I wanted to **do something** 40 years ago, when i first heard of solar power, and hydrogen power and a host of other viable solutions ---IF they were pursued with HALF the vigor and money that oil has been sought--- to our energy problems.

The Big Oil Corporatistas who control our society said --"No". We're making bliions selling oil. We don't want to change".

Hence, we sit here in 2005 with a massive problem on our hands, and STILL things will not get better, because the Powers-That-Be intend to remain rich and powerful......and the People be damned.

Period.

LionelHutz
03-30-2005, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Freethinker
From the studies I have read, it has, at best, six months worth of oil.

Oil companies may be evil, but they're not stupid. No way in hell are they investing in that kind of infrastructure for 6 months worth of oil.

Leper
03-30-2005, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by LionelHutz
Oil companies may be evil, but they're not stupid. No way in hell are they investing in that kind of infrastructure for 6 months worth of oil.

Yall are wrong. Calling it "six months worth of oil" is misleading. It's only six months worth of oil if that were the sole source of oil used by the U.S., which of course will not be the case. If Texas oil were made the sole source of oil for the U.S., I guarantee it wouldn't be around more than a few months either.

Decka
03-30-2005, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Leper
Yall are wrong. Calling it "six months worth of oil" is misleading. It's only six months worth of oil if that were the sole source of oil used by the U.S., which of course will not be the case. If Texas oil were made the sole source of oil for the U.S., I guarantee it wouldn't be around more than a few months either.

very true... its just a way for the liberals to make it seem less than it is so the people who are on the fence might lean their way.