From:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/23/22829/0084

You go out to a local club on Saturday night. Someone at City Hall doesn't like the musicians, and sends the Constabulary, who order all patrons to the floor at gunpoint, and begin systematic cavity searches. Nothing is found on you, so you're released, but with charges carrying 6 months in jail and a $500 fine, for being in the wrong place.

Greece under the Colonels? no. Czechoslovakia under Soviet occupation? guess again. Flint Michigan, March 19, 2005 under Bush and Granholm.

The raid on Club What's Next was conducted by Flint's Special Operations and Crime Area Target Team units, along with the Flint Area Narcotics Group and the Genesee County Sheriff's Posse.

Links:
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=25203
++++++++

FLINT - What started as a night of fun ended with handcuffs and strip searches for Flint resident Nathan Boisclair and 129 other music fans. Boisclair, who works as a disc jockey in clubs and at parties using the name Halluci-Nate, was one of 130 people arrested Sunday morning when local police raided Club What's Next, 2511 W. Pasadena Ave. Boisclair was on the bill to DJ at the Saturday night party, billed as "Getting Lucky," but police stormed into the club at 1:40 a.m. Sunday before he had a chance to perform. ... Camp and Boisclair said they were lined up against the club's wall, handcuffed for more than an hour, taken in groups into the club's bathrooms and strip searched by police who were looking for drugs.

http://www.mlive.com/news/fljournal/index.ssf?/base/news-27/1111508590310650.xml
----------------------------------------------------

17 out of the 130 people were arrested on felony drug charges. By my math, that's 13% of the people. The police were obviously operating on a credible tip. The police took 17 drug users off the street that night.

In another article it says that $3,500 in cash and $20,000 in illegal drugs were siezed. I'm not sure if it's the same club or not. Do you know?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/4307383/detail.html

I don't agree with people who were ticketed for just "frequenting a drug establishiment." How much did the patrons know about the club prior to getting there? That's impossible to tell. Hopefully all due process will be given to the defendents and the right decision will be made.

Originally posted by GW_Rules
I don't agree with people who were ticketed for just "frequenting a drug establishiment." How much did the patrons know about the club prior to getting there? That's impossible to tell. Hopefully all due process will be given to the defendents and the right decision will be made.
I, too, don't agree with the decision to ticket innocents for frequenting a drug establishment. I mean, think about it, how would these officers know if those people, in fact, FREQUENTED that nightclub? That's ridiculous. Everyone knows those tickets will be thrown out in court, but it's still sad they'll be forced to miss work to prove something they shouldn't have to in the first place. It's unconstitutional and disgusting. Since when is the government allowed to stop someone in a public place for no reason at all? Where does it stop? 500, remarkably, I'm in your corner on this one.

Sorry, Guerilla, if the link posted by GW is indeed the same situation as the link you posted, I don't feel sorry for those receiving the tickets. If it is, in fact, the same establishment and bust, and the defendants paid $10 (as promoted in the ad that tipped off the coppers) to be able to attend, then... in the words of the great Praetorian "cry me a fucking river". Too bad. They weren't in the "wrong" place at the "wrong" time! They paid their $10 to attend a drug party with drugs readily available as was posted in the ad.

What I find ironic is the fact that you posted a "commentary" link while GW posted an actual newslink. I couldn't get your 2nd link to cough up any info.

Apparently Michigan is aiming to become the new a$$hole of the country.

That state is working on a bill that will allow health workers (doctors, nurses, pharms et al) to deny service based on ethics, morality and religion. We all know it's aimed at the gays and abortion patients for now ... but beware of the slippery slope. It will eventually apply to all democrats.

http://www.proudparenting.com/page.cfm?Sectionid=65&typeofsite=snippetdetail&ID=1204&snippetset=yes

Dop

sure dop, and starving disabled people to death based on the words of their "husbands" who live with other women whom they have had children with is not a slippery slope. Next we will be killing of anyone who can not feed themselves. Who is to stop it? obviously the parents ahve no say in the lives of their children.

why is this initial post even in politics? Shouldnt it be in world news?

becasue, Bush ordered the night club to be raided, didnt you read the post? it happened on Bushs watch, so he must be in on it

How far out of your ass did you have to pull your head to be able to make that assumption?

try reading the post Einstein

It sounds like it was a rave. I've been to a few raves in the past and those places are an organised drug jamboree. LSD and Ecstacy being the drug of choice.

Not sure how the police really achieved much, but the people there can hardly complain - the police are doing their job & it sounds like they hit the jackpot.

Taken from Dop's Article Above
Three other three bills that could affect LGBT health care were also passed by the House Wednesday which would exempt a health insurer or health facility from providing or covering a health care procedure that violated ethical, moral or religious principles reflected in their bylaws or mission statement.

Opponents of the bills said they're worried they would allow providers to refuse service for any reason. For example, they said an emergency medical technicians could refuse to answer a call from the residence of gay couple because they don't approve of homosexuality. Ok, and WHAT IF the bylaws or mission statements are changed on a, say, monthly basis just for this reason?

And, WHAT IF, let's say a homosexual couple resided in the home prior to the current resident, and the EMT did not know this when he refuses to answer the call?

WTF is this Country coming to?

we may be wrong, but at least we're politically correct!

should be america's new motto

It'd be nothing short of murder. Not to mention probably one of the greatest attacks on civil rights since a half a century ago.

WTF is this Country coming to?
It's not coming to something, it's falling to something. Something that smells like barbarianism.

Originally posted by DrewM
It sounds like it was a rave. I've been to a few raves in the past and those places are an organised drug jamboree.

True.

Given the fact that drugs are still illegal in this (repressed, Puritanical, filled-with-holier-than-thou-santimonious-religious-asshats) society, I really cannot fault the police for making a move against them.

Originally posted by GW_Rules
17 out of the 130 people were arrested on felony drug charges. By my math, that's 13% of the people. The police were obviously operating on a credible tip. The police took 17 drug users off the street that night.

In another article it says that $3,500 in cash and $20,000 in illegal drugs were siezed. I'm not sure if it's the same club or not. Do you know?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/4307383/detail.html

I don't agree with people who were ticketed for just "frequenting a drug establishiment." How much did the patrons know about the club prior to getting there? That's impossible to tell. Hopefully all due process will be given to the defendents and the right decision will be made.

and more crowded prisons, over run courts, tax money wasted just because a buncha people wanna get high and dance. conservatives SAY they want to SAVE tax payers money. why not go out and find murderers, and rapists instead?
stupid republican

Originally posted by ivan
and more crowded prisons, over run courts, tax money wasted just because a buncha people wanna get high and dance. conservatives SAY they want to SAVE tax payers money. why not go out and find murderers, and rapists instead?
stupid republican


I'm sure if there were murderer and rapist parties, the cops would rush right in and do their business.... but unfortunately there are'nt any......

besides.... murders are very often caught, as are rapists.....

A rave is basically a name for "a social drug participation program"..... so why not stake it out?

You see, it doesnt matter to me much if people who are doing things against the law get caught. Even if the cops didnt have the right to go in.... who cares. If you are a good person, you don't have anything to hide. I wouldn't mind if cops could just come in and search your house any day of the week... i have nothing to hide.

Originally posted by Decka
I'm sure if there were murderer and rapist parties, the cops would rush right in and do their business.... but unfortunately there aren't any......

Sure there are parties like that.

There was a huge one going on in East Timor a few years back. The USGovernment turned a blind eye to it, so as not to upset any of the business interests concerned.

But then, East Timor is not sitting over a huge pool of OIL.

Originally posted by ivan
and more crowded prisons, over run courts, tax money wasted just because a buncha people wanna get high and dance. conservatives SAY they want to SAVE tax payers money. why not go out and find murderers, and rapists instead?
stupid republican

So I'm studpid because I believe the cops did a good job at doing their job. Damn those cops for taking so drugs off the street.

How can this be a Republican issue if the Governor of Michigan, Mayor of Flint, and both the junior and senior Senators are all Democrats? And if I'm not mistaken Michingan was one of the few blue states in last years election.

Drugs often, but not always, go hand in hand with violent crimes.

"So I'm studpid because I believe the cops did a good job at doing their job. Damn those cops for taking so drugs off the street."

Or maybe I'm stupid because I can't spell stupid.

Originally posted by GW_Rules
So I'm studpid because I believe the cops did a good job at doing their job. Damn those cops for taking so drugs off the street.


Drugs often, but not always, go hand in hand with violent crimes.

probably because things are illegal and there is a lot of money involved.
what consenting ADULTS do is their business. if they wanna get high, big deal. i see it as needing to be dealt with just like alcohol. do it in public, get a ticket. drive under the influence, get a ticket and go to jail. the drug war is not stopping consumption of drugs, just like prohibition did not stop consumption of alcohol.
if it was legal an awful lot of money would be taken out of the hands of petty asshole dictators, wannabe dictators, and drug runners. wanna get high? grow it yourself, make it yourself, and/or legalize it. free up an awful lot of prison space for people who REALLY belong there.

New digital camera, Ivan??

I think so, Cricket, but I'm hoping he loses it.

You and me both. :)

Hey Ivan

Is that latest avatar your Rasputin impression?

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Hey Ivan

Is that latest avatar your Rasputin impression?

heh,heh, no, go over to the price of gas thread and it is explained there.

17 out of the 130 people were arrested on felony drug charges. By my math, that's 13% of the people. So....we believe in collective punishment now do we?

this 'rave' was held at a bar serving alcohol. I would guess that 95% were on drugs, they just happned to be the legal kind. The problem is that everyone was charged just for being in the same bar. Thats like arresting all the customers at a store that was just robbed. Or arresting people standing around watching two guys fight it out in the street.

Most people in that bar had absolutely nothing to do with the dealing of illegal drugs in the bar. Yet they were all illegally strip searched and ticketed.


"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-- Thomas Jefferson

I have to say that I agree here, 500. Those people were illegally searched and ticketed...

Originally posted by Decka
You see, it doesnt matter to me much if people who are doing things against the law get caught. Even if the cops didnt have the right to go in.... who cares. If you are a good person, you don't have anything to hide. I wouldn't mind if cops could just come in and search your house any day of the week... i have nothing to hide.

Decka, How old are you? I remember a time when the police didn't need a search warrent. When they could barge into your house at 4:00am and plant whatever they wanted. It happened a lot. It was a time when if you were at the wrong place at the wrong time you were basically shit out of luck.

What should happen to Michelle who is visiting her cousin Stacy for the week and Stacy takes her out to a rave. Michele is from Bumfuck Iowa and doesn't know what a rave is all about. The cops break in a arrest anyone and everyone who is there. Does that sound fair?

I agree with you about the "having nothing to hide", but I still don't want the cops foreging threw my house tearing it up looking for something because some drug dealer has the same name or stole my identity. Once the cops show up your neigbors will never trust you, you are judged just by the fact that they were there. As a corporate officer I could loose my job for just such a thing. In the non profit world it is all about PR and looking good to the public.

Originally posted by Echo2
Decka, How old are you? I remember a time when the police didn't need a search warrent. When they could barge into your house at 4:00am and plant whatever they wanted. It happened a lot. It was a time when if you were at the wrong place at the wrong time you were basically shit out of luck.


First off, i am 22... and i dont really get what you are saying by "planting" whatever they wanted.

Originally posted by Echo2

What should happen to Michelle who is visiting her cousin Stacy for the week and Stacy takes her out to a rave. Michele is from Bumfuck Iowa and doesn't know what a rave is all about. The cops break in a arrest anyone and everyone who is there. Does that sound fair?


Well, if Michelle partook in the rave and did drugs, she'd be arrested of course. Not EVERYONE who was at the rave was aprehended, just the ones who were doing wrong. The cops didnt and wouldnt "break in and arrest anyone and everyone who is there"...... like you said. I would say it sounds perfectly fair for all those who broke the law that night at a rave to be arrested.....
Originally posted by Echo2

I agree with you about the "having nothing to hide", but I still don't want the cops foreging threw my house tearing it up looking for something because some drug dealer has the same name or stole my identity. Once the cops show up your neigbors will never trust you, you are judged just by the fact that they were there. As a corporate officer I could loose my job for just such a thing. In the non profit world it is all about PR and looking good to the public.

First off... not all neighbors are the same, not all neighbors are ultra-judgemental.... you can say SOME might not trust you. BUT.... if the cops had a right to go in and DIDNT need a search warrant, then why would they not trust you? It's standard procedure, just a check up.

And i dont think the cops would necessarily come in and "tear up" your house.... i bet if it was just a random check it would be much less intense than if they had a search warrant.... or at least i would hope.

But i would gladly trade in my "civil rights" if it meant random checks on houses to apprehend criminals....

And i would also expect areas of higher crime rates to be checked more often.... i dont care if it isn't politically correct, its solving the problem....

Originally posted by Decka
I would gladly trade in my "civil rights" if it meant random checks on houses to apprehend criminals....

You would?!?!?!

I believe we have just uncovered a foundational difference between conservative-minded people and liberal-minded people.......

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla


"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-- Thomas Jefferson

bravo! and we can thank GW bush and the government under him and amerikas paranoia for having that taken away.

Originally posted by Freethinker
You would?!?!?!

I believe we have just uncovered a foundational difference between conservative-minded people and liberal-minded people.......

i wonder how he would feel if he got searched and they found copied VHS tapes and DVD's and CD's in his house and he got charged for copyright infringement even though he wasn't selling them?
only a paranoid fuckin nazi would want government to have the right to search ANYONE for any reason , real or perceived.
i bet he thinks it is ok to have racist policies such as racial profiling.

Originally posted by ivan

only a paranoid fuckin nazi would want government to have the right to search ANYONE for any reason , real or perceived.


Or a citizen who --in the time honored Conservative traditition-- has been indoctrinated from birth to obey, to be complacent and to not think critically.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I believe we have just uncovered a foundational difference between conservative-minded people and liberal-minded people.......
Don't say that - I completely disagree with Decka here...

500,

Read my entire first post on this thread. I actually agreed with you that the people who did not have drugs should not have been ticketed. But I do applaud the police for making those 17 arrests.

Did you ever find out if the link I posted on my thread was the same as yours?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Don't say that - I completely disagree with Decka here...

LOL....believe it or not, I thought of you specifically when i posted that.....and that you would not agree with Decka.

I am becoming convinced that you have a tenacious streak of logic [IOW, a tendency toward rational thought and --maybe-- a progressive viewpoint] running thru your particular brand of "conservatism".

Thank you, FT. I was raised in a family of STAUNCH conservatives, and while I appreciated being raised by parents who were responsible and loving (not trying to infer that liberal parents wouldn't be) - sometimes I felt like Al Franken around my father, who is slightly right of Barry Goldwater politically, and I'm NOT kidding. I'll tell you a short story, and while I'm typing - I'm smiling, and not because it's particularly funny - it reminds me of the standard conservative bashing liberals have fun doing on shows like Saturday Night Live. I was around my dad about 2 weeks ago and while we were watching TV in a cigar bar downtown Chicago, he sees Warner Saunders and immediately, and loudly, asks me if he looks like he has AIDS. Dumbfounded, I asked him why he'd be under that impression. He told me that he always thought he was "femmie". I immediately said you think Warner Saunders is femmie??? First off, dad, I don't usually make it a habit to observe a newsman's weight and appearance. Secondly, straight people catch AIDS too. Thirdly, why are we talking about this? My dad is 68, a retired Lt. Col in the Air Force, and a highly educated man - he graduated from Dartmouth in the early 60's, so I feel obligated to cut him some slack. After I responded, I just about dropped my jaw in disbelief. In my family - I'm a liberal. Isn't that a kick in the pants..?

Good story prae but it doesn't make you a liberal ... it's just signs that you may be finally growing up.

Dop

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Good story prae but it doesn't make you a liberal ... it's just signs that you may be finally growing up.

Dop

Dop, that was rather a backhanded slight. :@@:

It was the same article but it doesnt make any difference they violated the 4th amendment. I dont care how much money they netted (BTW the large sum of cash was probably the money the pigs stole from the door.) Unless they know who was specifically selling drugs and only harrassed them this is completely illegal.

So your telling me that it is OK for cops to seal off a whole city block on the hunch that they might find drugs on 13% of the people? Cocktail party? Art opening? Concert?

But i would gladly trade in my "civil rights" if it meant random checks on houses to apprehend criminals.... You're one paranoid slave Decka...

I usually dont chime in on the idiotic "liberal/conservative are better..." but given the stupid shit happening on the other thread...Dop, get off it.

I actually agreed with you that the people who did not have drugs should not have been ticketed Nor should they have been strip searched...You want the cops to have a shower cam at your house?

Backhanded Echo?

If you're using the word as an adjective then I will agree.

Keep in mind, used this way the word implies a compliment, the indirectness and sarcasim notwithstanding.

Dop

i think two things are happening here....

A. i wasn't specific enough in my thoughts...

B. What i said is being exaggerated to the extreme

You would?!?!?!

I believe we have just uncovered a foundational difference between conservative-minded people and liberal-minded people....... Good one FT.

And - great story, btw, Prae.

Taken from GWR's link posted on page 1
Officers said they had been planning their sting since October after getting tipped off by an online advertisement promoting the rave.

The cost at the door was $10 for access to all types of drugs including Ecstasy, cocaine, pot and GHB, the "date rape" drug.

Police said young partygoers from throughout Michigan and Ohio attended the party. If you pay money to attend this rave KNOWING that there will be illegal drugs present, I fail to see that you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, and thus, susceptible to search and potential subsequent arrest.

PS. I see they've changed the article from yesterday somewhat.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
So your telling me that it is OK for cops to seal off a whole city block on the hunch that they might find drugs on 13% of the people? Cocktail party? Art opening? Concert?
Not saying that I disagree with you, 500, but I seriously doubt that you'd find drugs on people at a cocktail party. The art opening and concert, maybe, but not a black tie affair or any formal cocktail party, for that matter. I'd probably be the only person arrested if that were the case, especially if I had to hobnob with my dad's friends. :)

Prae, you're such a bad boy! :)
Lemme ask you, WTF do you do for a living that allows you to lurk like a jackal in the Politics threads all day? It's hilarious every time I see The Praetorian "browsing". You're like a viper, ready to strike and I fall over myself trying to read your latest reply on any given topic.

Originally posted by saycricket
Prae, you're such a bad boy! :)
Lemme ask you, WTF do you do for a living that allows you to lurk like a jackal in the Politics threads all day? It's hilarious every time I see The Praetorian "browsing". You're like a viper, ready to strike and I fall over myself trying to read your latest reply on any given topic.
I, like most trust fund babies, work for my father, who has a company that manufactures plaques, pins, medals, and awards for schools all across the nation - we're a mail order business. At the beginning of the year, we send out 350,000 catalogs, sit back, and hope the money comes rolling in March, April, May, and June. My job is to establish commercial sales, run payroll, sales tax, manage employees, bank reconciliations, and correspond with vendors. Being the boss's kid, I'm allowed a fair amount of latitude, as you can imagine. When I'm not busy firing people, doing work, or picking my ass, I'm on Allforums. This place has taught me a lot. I like the people who post here - for the most part; everyone's intelligent, compassionate, and level headed. Besides, it's a trip to talk to people all across the world on a daily basis for free.

lazy spoiled brat, get to work.

"picking my ass" -- LOL. But, I agree with you (not on the ass picking)...there are a ton of brainy people on this forum and I have learned a lot as well. In fact, my views on politics, for example, have changed drastically since first posting here many months ago. Much of that is Trav's fault though. Arguing with him was a lot more fun when I disagreed with nearly everything he said, but I can't quite say that anymore.

Cricket - you do realize that that "article" was taken word for word form a cops mouth right?

Notice how it fails to even mention what was on the flyer for the bar/rave or whatever you want to call it.

13% isnt exactly a high percetage of people with drugs on them.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

13% isnt exactly a high percetage of people with drugs on them.

It's not? If you randomly searched people walking down the street, how many do you think would have drugs on them?

Originally posted by Freethinker
You would?!?!?!

I believe we have just uncovered a foundational difference between conservative-minded people and liberal-minded people.......

Or.... its just my personal opinion

I have nothing to hide so i dont care if i get searched.

It would make me feel more safe to know that people are being looked over..... In my opinion crime would go down, and lives would be saved.

Don't take my opinion and brand it on all of conservative people lol

If you randomly searched people walking down the street, how many do you think would have drugs on them? If you randomly asked people how many of them used drugs Im pretty sure youd get a much higher percent.

Fact is neither of us knows but if you think its OK to harrass the majority of the population for the "crimes" of 13% you got a problem.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
If you think its OK to harrass the majority of the population for the "crimes" of 13% you got a problem.

That problem is called the-- *totalitarianist* [IOW, uber-conservative] mindset.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Fact is neither of us knows but if you think its OK to harrass the majority of the population for the "crimes" of 13% you got a problem.

I don't think that. But 13% of the people in a bar doing something illegal is a pretty significant number. (Not that I think possession should be illegal, but the cops don't make the laws).

Originally posted by Freethinker
That problem is called the-- *totalitarianist* [IOW, uber-conservative] mindset.
Amazingly enough, I agree.