Panel Ignored Evidence on Detainee
U.S. Military Intelligence, German Authorities Found No Ties to Terrorists

In recently declassified portions of a January ruling, a federal judge criticized the military panel for ignoring the exculpatory information that dominates Kurnaz's file and for relying instead on a brief, unsupported memo filed shortly before Kurnaz's hearing by an unidentified government official.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3868-2005Mar26?language=printer

____________________________________

The US military has time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted. So who's gonna be the next "terrorist" held without evidence? Oh wait you dont care...youre not from the middle east...

you have once again proven how ignorant you are. I guess a cushy life in america can do that to someone. they read an article on a web site and all of a sudden they are sure the US military just simply can not be trusted.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

The US military has time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted. So who's gonna be the next "terrorist" held without evidence? Oh wait you dont care...youre not from the middle east... [/B]

As a senior member of the US military (E-7) I take extreme exception to you comments about the military not being able to be trusted. All branches of the armed forces are an honorable group of men and women, up and down the chain of command. I put me trust in these people to safeguard all citizens of this country, even pricks like you.

What have you done for your country lately?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing37.gif

Have fun catching a bullet for me.

Your posts and sig thus far have shown you are nothing but an indoctrinated partisan hack uncapable of independant thought. The fact that you are in the military just goes to reinforce this assumption.

If murdering thousands of innocent civilians, torturing and raping them, and stealing the freedom of innnocent people all over the world with no evidence and only heresay is what you call trustworthy you have some serious issues.

What have I done for my coutry? I am the conscience of this country while you are the primal unthinking bloodthirsty savage within. I havent pissed off millions of middleeasterners by raping murdering jailing them. Whereby increasing their hate for the US and the chances of them contributing to the next 9-11, you have done all that. 9-11 would not have happened except for Americas insatiable imperialist appitite done through both economic then military actions.

Again have fun catching a bullet. I'll smile at the "sacrifice" you made for me.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Your posts and sig thus far have shown you are nothing but an indoctrinated partisan hack uncapable of independant thought. The fact that you are in the military just goes to reinforce this assumption.
What you call independent thought, others call myopic, plebeian deduction - in which, you have proven, once again, that there is no such thing as incommunicable nonsense.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
What have I done for my coutry? I am the conscience of this country while you are the primal unthinking bloodthirsty savage within. I havent pissed off millions of middleeasterners by raping murdering jailing them.
No, you've been too busy pissing off millions of your countrymen to bother noticing how you're nothing short of a masturbatory, monotonous, solitaire playing vulgarity to all and sundry.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Again have fun catching a bullet. I'll smile at the "sacrifice" you made for me.
You supposedly value life, morality, and dignity, yet you say shit like that...

you're an ass tossing, armpit-licking, cockweasel, 500.

Originally posted by GW_Rules
As a senior member of the US military (E-7) I take extreme exception to you comments about the military not being able to be trusted.

Sorry General, but E-7 in the military won't get you anything special here on allforums. This is a debate forum ... not the enlisted men's club where we sit around and blow smoke.

Dop

Even still, Dop, that doesn't give 500 the right to make such shitty comments to him. In fact, I'd enjoy slapping him across the face for you GW...but shit splatters. He can sit here in the safety of his home here in the good Ol USA and talk crap (in fact, he has a mouthful) while others are out protecting that right.

While I do NOT agree that Republicans Rule and Democrats Suck, nor do I agree with your username, I will agree with everything else in your post GW. :)

This is a debate forum ... not the enlisted men's club where we sit around and blow smoke. Yeah, yeah, just depends on who you ask. :rolleyes: I direct your attention to 500's post upthread. Generalized "blowing smoke" comments if I ever heard them.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Sorry General, but E-7 in the military won't get you anything special here on allforums. This is a debate forum ... not the enlisted men's club where we sit around and blow smoke.

Dop

And all am doing is debating. I took an exception to 10lbmonkey's personnal attack on the military. I would never want or expect anything special.

As far as catching a bullet, that's my job.

Fair enough gw_fools ...

but, the big monkey was not personally attacking anything ... he was just expressing his opinion ... that's how debate works. Look at it as your 1st ammendment rights in action.

Point in fact -- certain posters have used the 'the liberals don't support the military' meme for so long now, that it no longer carries much weight. You might want to think up a new one.

Dop

Even still, Dop, that doesn't give 500 the right to make such shitty comments to him. excuse me but who was the one who called me a prick and posted an "up yours" emoticon...the hypocracy on these boards is astonding.

So yet again another issue is falling into the cracks because the Riechwingers on the board have chosen to ignore what they cannot defend. I can defend my own freedoms and some jackass killing Iraqis is merely making the world more dangerous for Americans by increasing legitimate hate. If you wanna talk shit in the thread go for it, but at least be willing to address the article at hand while youre at it.


Lets talk about his guy who has been held, not only without evidence against him, but with evidence proving his innocence. The US military has unjustly stolen years of his life and still refuse to release him The same can be said about the 30 others mentioned in the article that have already been found innocent yet are still being held.

500, I read the article that you posted and to an extent, I don't disagree with you. If the guy (and the other 30 or so) are innocent, they should be let go provided there is enough evidence to prove innocence.

However, when you collectively generalize that the entire military "cannot and should not" be trusted, you wrankled GW (and me too, for that matter). For that reason, GW called you a prick and said "up yours". Who could blame him??

OBVIOUSLY he feels he is not one of the bad guys. Who are you to judge the entire military? I'd say he's probably earned the right to tell you to stick it, especially in light of the fact that it's easy for you to talk shit, (once again, talking about the very institute that paved the way to allow you to talk such shit in the first place!) while your duff is located safely within our borders. Talk about hypocrisy! HA!

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
excuse me but who was the one who called me a prick and posted an "up yours" emoticon...the hypocracy on these boards is astonding.
You disgustingly, and opportunistically, egg people on - particularly those who've sacrificed their lives serving this country, and your shear flippancy is omnipresent. I don't know how long GW Rules has been perusing these forums, but his assessment and criticism of you isn't entirely off the mark. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the political policy the US Government implements, you have NO RIGHT crucifying the messenger for simply doing their job. Unlike FT, you're young - simply pick a country you feel comfortable living in, and get the fuck out of mine, you spineless cock-gobbler.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I can defend my own freedoms...
Then why don't you send a grandiose message to all, and start by leaving...

The people, by and large, who've fought for this nation don't want you here.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
So yet again another issue is falling into the cracks because the Riechwingers on the board have chosen to ignore what they cannot defend.
Defend what??? A few isolated cases of a non-Americans getting treated like foreign criminals in foreign countries? Yes, it's sad what's happened to Mr. Muhammad, but the fact remains: he's no more entitled to due process than any other non-American brought in on charges that he, at the time, couldn't dispute. However, if evidence truly exists that exonerates him - then he should be freed. The problem isn't that issue, the problem surfaced when you blanketly used that incident as the definitive basis for your assumption that our entire military is unjust. It isn't - get over it, or move, it’s your choice.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
... he was just expressing his opinion ... that's how debate works. Dop

Did that qualify as "debate" in your book?

Yeah! What HE SAID!! Dammit! You spineless cock-gobbler 500!

(JFC Prae, "cock-gobbler"? LMFAO!)

This is still america Brooks where we enjoy a freedom of expression or so it is claimed and, although the republicans don't like the idea of fairness, it's a 2-way street.

If the right has 1st ammendment rights then so does the left and no matter how you try and twist words, it still boils down to opinion protected by the constitution.

Dop

And who, exactly, impugned his right to free speech? Take your time, Dop.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Fair enough gw_fools ...

but, the big monkey was not personally attacking anything ... he was just expressing his opinion ... that's how debate works. Look at it as your 1st ammendment rights in action.

Point in fact -- certain posters have used the 'the liberals don't support the military' meme for so long now, that it no longer carries much weight. You might want to think up a new one.

Dop

GW_fools.... good one, I like that

I would not say that all librals don't support the military. Some support it more than others, just like some Republicans are more pro military than others. And it seems some on both sides are inconsistant and cast there votes depending on which way the wind blows on that day.

Wow, GW, I'm impressed that you didn't get all wigged out over the commentary here. In fact, you handled yourself rather well, and even though you support GWB, I think I'll add you to my "nice guy" corner. :)

Originally posted by The Praetorian
And who, exactly, impugned his right to free speech? Take your time, Dop.

I clearly tied debate to the 1st ammendment in my post up-thread which lead Brooks to question my judgement of 500's statements as they apply to debate ...

There is no reason for me to answer the question from Brooks because I stayed awake in 7th grade when they taught the ...

Postulates of Equality
===============
Reflexive Property of Equality: a = a
Symmetric Property of Equality: if a = b, then b = a
Transitive Property of Equality: if a = b and b = c, then a = c

and had you done the same, you wouldn't be asking this question.

Slow enough for ya?

Dop

Originally posted by saycricket
Wow, GW, I'm impressed that you didn't get all wigged out over the commentary here. In fact, you handled yourself rather well, and even though you support GWB, I think I'll add you to my "nice guy" corner. :)

Republicans can be nice guys too. I just take it personnel when somebody, who really does not know what he is talking about, makes unwarrented jabs at the military as a whole. It just pisses me off.

Where in PA are you from? I graduated high school in Williamsport and went to college at Bloomsburg U.

welcome to the board GW, and thanks for your service. The more military men the better, becasue quite frankly, your serivce is being creamed in here daily. I am sure you will soon become quite familiar with echo2, dop, mr shaman, freethinker, you have already met 98lbweakling.

Originally posted by The Praetorian, concerning something 500lbguerilla said
You disgustingly, and opportunistically, egg people on - particularly those who've sacrificed their lives serving this country, and your shear flippancy is omnipresent.

I believe you have it a bit backward there, Prae.

500lb began this by saying nothing more defamtory of the military than --"they have proven that they cannot be trusted".

THAT assertion, contrary to what you or GW_Rules may think, is not entirely unfounded.

500lb had inluded a link that provided background for his having MADE that assertion.......but GW-Rules apparently (in the time honored tradition of rightwing folk from time immemorial) evidently chose to completely ignore the evidence provided by the link, (it seems unlikely by his response that he ever followed and actually read the link) and took extreme offense at 500lb's ""cannot be trusted remark"".

GW_Rules responded to 500lb by posting a gif a a figure extending the middle finger [IOW, signalling "Fuck you!"] , with the words --"Up yours!" on the gif, and finishing it off by regurgitating the childish taunt --"Republicans rule, Democrats suck".

Frankly, since with his FIRST post to this thread he signalled no desire to talk about the substance of the issue, instead coming to the instant defense of the military regardless of and seemingly oblivious to whatever evidence had been provided that they (the military) did something untrustworthy, GW_Rules deserved whatever heated response he got from 500lb.

Further, it is always revealing to see the totalitarianist minded Righties,whenever they are embarrassed by wrongdoings on the part of their cherished heroes or icons being revealed, wrongdoings for which they have NO answer, reduced to the ever-present-- "Aw, why don't you evil librulls just get out of MY country!!!".......

.......lastly, 500lbguerilla DID make a valid point with the link that began this thread....., although a willfully blind partisan like GW_Rules will no doubt find it easy to continue to ignore it.

i agree that 500's comment was of poor taste, even by his standards.

It shows that he takes the military for granted, ridiculing a veteran to "catch a bullet" for him.... it shows he doesnt appreciate what this country gives him.

Why should i listen to a spoiled brat like this?

we all know when it comes to deciding if the military is trust worthy or not a link to a left wing web site run by someone who has never fired a Daisy BB gun is far more reliable then a non commissioned officer actually in the military any old day of the week

The military, just like any other portion of our society has good and bad people in it. What they are commanded to do is not up to them. Also, the rules of engagement are not up to them. As with any stepped structural system of manageing people, it is the people from the top that set the culture for the system. Don't blame the poor soldier carrying a rifle, blame the idiots at the top making decisions and setting cultural norms.

i.e. - If torture had been condemned out right from the top, that condemnation would have gone down through the ranks and Abu Garib may not have happened. Unfortunately the poor soldiers are getting screwed for an atmosphere that was allowed to happen. This is dangerous when groups of young people are put into life and death situations with enemies that are unknown.

The powers that be are almost always responsible to some extent for the actions of their suboardinates in wartime. And they will deny it to their grave. At least that was the way it was when I was in the service.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Have fun catching a bullet for me....
Again have fun catching a bullet. I'll smile at the "sacrifice" you made for me.

This is where the train left the tracks.

Guerilla, I have no problem with your occasional flights into the nether regions of left-wing land, because it makes me look moderate. When you post shit like you did above, however, you're just going to piss everyone off, including me. My father proudly served in the Navy for 16 years, and he didn't do it because he wanted to bomb innocent people at the whim of an out-of-control fascist state. He served his country because he felt it was his duty to give something back to the country he loved. The people serving in the military now are as likely to be your friends, relatives, and neighbors as they are to be career military men and women. If you impugn the character of the men and women who are sacrificing what you enjoy every day, you're worse than the people you attack.

You claim to hate what the government and the military is doing because it kills innocent people yet you poke fun at the notion of someone "catching a bullet". It's difficult to find any credibility in such a statement, and by association it's author.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
you spineless cock-gobbler.

Cock-gobbler? Really Prae...

As the unofficial spokesman for the Gobblers on Allforums Group (G.A.G.) I'd like to unofficially say that 500lbguerrilla is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of our fraternal organization. We only accept members who are chosen specifically for their ability to gobble. While 500 has shown considerable talents in the spewing department, he has demonstrated no exceptional gobbling abilities whatsoever. We the proud members of G.A.G., do therefore request, nay demand, a full and complete retraction of this calumny to be posted forthwith.

Vilepagan
Unofficial President of G.A.G.

G.A.G., LMFAO :D

LMAO Vile! Too funny!!

GW, I'm a graduate of Sayre HS, and live in Athens, PA - just up the road about 1 1/2 hrs. from Williamsport. Nice to meet cha!!

And, contrary to popular belief, although the military does get dinged on a daily basis around here, the general consensus, IMO is that you guys are doing a job that MOST of us think is brave, solid and true.

posted by 500lbguerilla
The US military has time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted.
This is quite different from FT's view of : posted by Freethinker
500lb began this by saying nothing more defamtory of the military than --"they have proven that they cannot be trusted". Is FT merely overlooking the blatant slam here by guerilla, or am I dreaming? :confused:

Originally posted by Decka
i agree that 500's comment was of poor taste.....
Why should i listen to a spoiled brat like this?

Why should you or anyone else listen to an uber-conservative, macho man flag-waver giving 500lb the finger, proclaiming -- "Up yours!", and closing with the puerile -- "Republicans rule, Democrats suck"............................?!?!?!?!?!?....

....when all that 500 lb had done at that point was to --with documentation to back up his side of the argument, I mght add-- point out that the US military had done something very untrustworthy, and that that act followed a previous pattern of committing untrustworthy acts........??

GW_Rules obviously has NO inclination to debate the issue and perhaps discuss what happened and WHY the US Military was deemed untrustworthy by 500lbguerilla............he, with the little spoiled child mentality SO prevalent among the ruling Rightwing, only knows that he was angered by the remarks and was moved to lash out in condemnation of the messenger, without caring about the facts of the matter as detailed in the link.

Originally posted by saycricket
This is quite different from FT's view of : Is FT merely overlooking the blatant slam here by guerilla.......???

Oh. Here.

Let me soothe your tender psyche by rephrasing it.

500lb began this by saying nothing more defamtory of the military than they have ------"time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted."

Gosh.....I certainly hope adding the "time and time again" and the "and should not" words will satisfy your fixation with what the intent of the comment was.

The point, FT, was that 500 was being condescending, harassing (among a whole list of other things) and blatantly nasty in his remark. YOU, were merely smoothing over. The meaning by 500 was crystal clear.

no saycricket.... its just that FT has to defend his military-slamming friend.... they all cover each other's backs... whether or not what they say is practical

Originally posted by saycricket
The point, FT, was that 500 was being condescending, harassing (among a whole list of other things) and blatantly nasty in his remark.

This particular discussion, saycricket, is concerned with the remarks in the post of 500lb guerilla's that began this thread, and not his later retaliatory comments........let's just get that straight at the outset.

The only remark of 500lbguerilla's I read in the post in question that could remotely be viewed as "nasty" was this ------ ""The US military has time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted.""------- (to which a person whose tagline is **Republicans Rule, Democrats SucK**, who seemingly never read the link in question, who showed not the slightest inclination to disect and/or refute the comment, or to even discuss the issue, responded to with the middle finger extended [IOW, saying --"fuck you"] , and with the words "Up yours!")

I really fail to see the extreme *condescension* or *harrassment* that you ascribe to 500lb's opening comment.

500lb made a comment about the military collectively and as an institution. GW_Rules tried to make it seem [as is so often the wont of RightWing personalities] as if he was being personally attacked.

Let GW_Rules step up and try to refute the facts of the matter, as outlined in the linked report, instead of responding with something that amounted to --"Hey, you have impugned my sacred honor!!!!......Fuck you!!!....Up yours!!!....You suck!!!!

If he was imbued with such a deep sense of *honor*. what was he doing with **Republicans Rule, Democrats SucK** as a tagline?!?!?

"500lb made a comment about the military collectively and as an institution. GW_Rules tried to make it seem [as is so often the wont of RightWing personalities] as if he was being personally attacked."

And that is what pissed me off. He made a collective generalization about the military. If he says all the military, that includes me, therefore it's personnal.

As far as my tagline, it's a joke. I actually voted for some Democrats in the last local election.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

....you are nothing but an indoctrinated partisan hack uncapable of independant thought........ murdering thousands of innocent civilians, torturing and raping them, and stealing the freedom of innnocent people all over the world.....you are the primal unthinking bloodthirsty savage within.....by raping murdering jailing them.

Hey Dop, this was the post prior to yours that you referred to as "debate". I didn't say he couldn't say these things, I just asked you if you considered this "debate".

Originally posted by Brooks
Hey Dop, this was the post prior to yours that you referred to as "debate". I didn't say he couldn't say these things, I just asked you if you considered this "debate".

You have to admit ... 500 does make some good points.

Dop

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Cock-gobbler? Really Prae...

As the unofficial spokesman for the Gobblers on Allforums Group (G.A.G.) I'd like to unofficially say that 500lbguerrilla is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of our fraternal organization. We only accept members who are chosen specifically for their ability to gobble. While 500 has shown considerable talents in the spewing department, he has demonstrated no exceptional gobbling abilities whatsoever. We the proud members of G.A.G., do therefore request, nay demand, a full and complete retraction of this calumny to be posted forthwith.

Vilepagan
Unofficial President of G.A.G.
Vile - This was hysterical. Probably the funniest thing you've ever posted in my time here. And because of it...

I would like to offer a full and utter retraction to 500 and the G.A.G. collective. My comment was motivated entirely by malice and, in no way, was appropriate given the circumstances. Irredeemably uncouth mouth breather would have been far more apropos.

GWR - Thank you to you and Trav and Echo for your service. No matter what else any of you do in life, you deserve respect for this.

There are some people here who, due to lack of ideas, have nothing left to do but shock. When unable to defend a point one time, Dop even said he just enjoyed pushing people's buttons. Take solace in the fact that all they will ever do is firm up the resolve of both sides politically, but will never influence anyone.

They will call the conservatives bigots and then make blanket statements about everyone in the military.

Echo said that, like anywhere else, there are good and bad people in the military. There are only about four people here who believe otherwise.

There are reasonable people to the left of you. Always read Drew M, Vile Pagan, Blib Blob and sometimes Echo. When I learn something from The Dark Side, the rest of the swamp is worth the slog.

Originally posted by Freethinker
500lb made a comment about the military collectively and as an institution. GW_Rules tried to make it seem [as is so often the wont of RightWing personalities] as if he was being personally attacked.
So it's okay to collectively and categorically generalize when talking about people in an organization, but it's clearly considered taboo when talking about people in general. Would you be okay with me posting a link showing that 1 in 3 black males are in some phase of the correctional system, while following it up with a blanket statement akin to his, "they have, time and time again, proven that they cannot and should not be trusted"?

Wake up, FT, his statement, while reflecting some truth, was still based on a bullshit premise, and if you can't see that, then I'll have to change my opinion of your intellect.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
I clearly tied debate to the 1st ammendment in my post up-thread which lead Brooks to question my judgement of 500's statements as they apply to debate ...

There is no reason for me to answer the question from Brooks because I stayed awake in 7th grade when they taught the ...

Postulates of Equality
===============
Reflexive Property of Equality: a = a
Symmetric Property of Equality: if a = b, then b = a
Transitive Property of Equality: if a = b and b = c, then a = c

and had you done the same, you wouldn't be asking this question.

Slow enough for ya?

Dop

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
....you are nothing but an indoctrinated partisan hack uncapable of independant thought........ murdering thousands of innocent civilians, torturing and raping them, and stealing the freedom of innnocent people all over the world.....you are the primal unthinking bloodthirsty savage within.....by raping murdering jailing them.

Originally posted by Brooks
Hey Dop, this was the post prior to yours that you referred to as "debate". I didn't say he couldn't say these things, I just asked you if you considered this "debate".
Now you understand why I didn't respond.

Slow enough for ya?

This particular discussion, saycricket, is concerned with the remarks in the post of 500lb guerilla's that began this thread, and not his later retaliatory comments........let's just get that straight at the outset. Well, NO SHIT. I never disputed that, so don't start twisting.
The only remark of 500lbguerilla's I read in the post in question that could remotely be viewed as "nasty" was this ------ ""The US military has time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted."" This is exactly the comment that I brought up and exactly the reason that GW (and everyone else) got upset. I don't need you to spell it out for me, FT. I may not be as gifted in verse as you are, but I'm no dummy.

I started this thread perfectly reasonably. I gave an example of sbuse that occured not in the heat of battle, not somewhere off base, but in the middle of a highly controlled and regulated military prison. If the military is unable and unwilling to follow the law and observe the truth in such situtaions then it has outright proven that in more hectic and unpredictable situations it will act even worse given the extreme lack of accountability.

It was reponded to with "fuck you Im risking my life so you better be nice to me". When in fact the post said absolutly nothing against individual soilders and commented on the military operting procedures on a whole.

I then responded with a like-worded post talking shit because he was more interested in that then actually debating a topic. He didnt read the link nor did he even bother to comment on it. All he did was call names to a very mild post.

Then all the other right wingers on the board started ragging on me for responding in like while completely ignoring the post that prompted it.

This is a problem. Especially since it came from the exact people who rant on and on about the "group think" of left wingers on teh board (which occurs on both sides and not usually when the righties procliam such ie: the fox blocker thread). I for one have disagreed with every single member on these boards. I have never biasedly defended someones actions. I call what I see when I see it and hasnt really won me any friends . Which is fine, I wasnt looking for friends, I was looking for real debate. Real debate virtually never happens on these boards because in one way or another threads get derailed by stupid partisan bickering. Its the occasional debate crossed with endless and mindless repetition sidetracked discussion in favor of "my side is better" BS. All sides have been guilty of this and it makes these forums worthless. So how about everyone start commenting on what they feel about a particular issue and stop attacking and defending people based on what you assume they believe (I'm looking at you especially Trav...) or whether or not they agree with you on other issues...

And Vile, Thanks for injecting some humor into the thread and getting people to calm down a little.

So who wants to drop this stupid fucking shit and talk about what was in the article?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
It was reponded to with "fuck you Im risking my life so you better be nice to me". When in fact the post said absolutly nothing against individual soilders and commented on the military operting procedures on a whole.
But the conversation has clearly evolved since then, so for you to be arguing the same thing now is indicative of your inability to respond to the more recent rebuttals. Did it ever occur to you that no one was debating the fact that imprisoning people without reason is wrong? If, in fact, that has occurred, then it needs to be observed and corrected, however, like FT, you use injustices like the one here to discredit the entire US military, and that makes your argument nothing short of poppycock, period.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I for one have disagreed with every single member on these boards.
As I'm sure they have with you - on a very regular basis.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I have never biasedly defended someones actions. I call what I see when I see it and hasnt really won me any friends . Which is fine, I wasnt looking for friends, I was looking for real debate.
Did you honestly expect people to be civil after you attacked their decision to honorably serve their country, while putting their lives on the line to supposedly protect the freedoms of a 20 something year-old asswipe who makes it a practice to minimize their efforts at every turn?
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Real debate virtually never happens on these boards because in one way or another threads get derailed by stupid partisan bickering. Its the occasional debate crossed with endless and mindless repetition sidetracked discussion in favor of "my side is better" BS.
This is true, but it is what it is...deal with it.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
So it's okay to collectively and categorically generalize when talking about people in an organization, but it's clearly considered taboo when talking about people in general.

You seem to be missing it.

With the specific comment he made, 500lb was NOT talking about people in an organization as much as the ORGANIZATION itself.

I hope you realize the difference.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Would you be okay with me posting a link showing that 1 in 3 black males are in some phase of the correctional system, while following it up with a blanket statement akin to his, "they have, time and time again, proven that they cannot and should not be trusted"?

Yes, it would be perfectly fitting ---- IF every one of those human beings you refered to were members of an organization bound by strict rules of behavior, and whose orders they were bound to follow upon pain of death, then YES, i DO think that would be a fitting comment.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Wake up, FT, his statement, while reflecting some truth, was still based on a bullshit premise

You think the premise was flawed??

Ok.

I'm perfectly fine with that.

But let GW_Rules attack the premise and stop the whining about it being "personal".

It's childish.

Originally posted by saycricket
I don't need you to spell it out for me, FT.

I meant no condescension toward you. My apologies if it sounded that way.

Okay, I understand - thank you.

However - I hope you can understand the cause of my confusion. He has chimed in with Dop on a few occasions talking about our service people as essentially nothing more than rapists, torturers, and murderers, and that, to me, seems like a pretty blanketed assessment of our men and women in uniform...NOT the institution.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

Which is fine, I wasnt looking for friends, I was looking for real debate.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla:

"....you are nothing but an indoctrinated partisan hack uncapable of independant thought........ murdering thousands of innocent civilians, torturing and raping them, and stealing the freedom of innnocent people all over the world.....you are the primal unthinking bloodthirsty savage within.....by raping murdering jailing them."

Originally posted by Brooks
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla:

"....you are nothing but an indoctrinated partisan hack uncapable of independant thought........

note;

500lb posted that AFTER his opening post was greeted with --"Waaah, I'm in the military, you have insulted me!....fuck you!!...Up yours!!"

You're right. Any lover of "real debate" would turn into that after being cursed at.

Originally posted by Brooks
Any lover of "real debate" would turn into that after being cursed at.

Touche'.

Good point.

Appearently you missed my next post of this...

If you wanna talk shit in the thread go for it, but at least be willing to address the article at hand while youre at it.

By the way Prea whats up with this IF?
If, in fact, that has occurred, then it needs to be observed and corrected, however, like FT, you use injustices like the one here to discredit the entire US military, and that makes your argument nothing short of poppycock, period.

This HAS been documented and is persisting contrary to international law and respect for life. The US military has done a good job of discrediting itself. Systematic abuse is well documented at Gitmo, Abu G and many other prisons around Iraq. You sound like the republican senators telling people not to harm condoleezas credibility by talking about her lies... They did it, they are responsible, they discredited themselves. As I have said this isnt in some hard to control situation. This is occuring in the most controlled environment possible.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Panel Ignored Evidence on Detainee
U.S. Military Intelligence, German Authorities Found No Ties to Terrorists

In recently declassified portions of a January ruling, a federal judge criticized the military panel for ignoring the exculpatory information that dominates Kurnaz's file and for relying instead on a brief, unsupported memo filed shortly before Kurnaz's hearing by an unidentified government official.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3868-2005Mar26?language=printer

____________________________________

The US military has time and time again proven that it cannot and should not be trusted. So who's gonna be the next "terrorist" held without evidence? Oh wait you dont care...youre not from the middle east...

The US military can be trusted just not the people who give the orders (GWB). Same can apply for our military:

Edit: Damnit i have a funny pic and do not know how to upload it from my comp, any one noe how to help

The US military can be trusted just not the people who give the orders (GWB). Since in the militray those not giving orders are told to "shut up and do what theyre told" my statement applies.

i AM STILL TRYING TO FIGUE OUT HOW WE STOLE THE FREEDOM OF THE IRAQIS AND AFGHANIS

Originally posted by CX returns
any one noe how to help
Yeah, here's how: dude, it's an extra keystroke. Spelling the word correctly serves to do two things effectively: 1) makes you appear quasi-competent, and 2) takes less than a second to do. Sorry, but people who abbreviate shit like that should be met in an alley with a gallon gasoline and a blowtorch. No offense.

Lot of pent-up anger there, Praetorian. Have you considered therapy? :)

box19, your one funny dude.

Lot of pent-up anger there, Praetorian.
Not really, I just have an extremely low tolerance for out and out stupidity.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Yeah, here's how: dude, it's an extra keystroke. Spelling the word correctly serves to do two things effectively: 1) makes you appear quasi-competent, and 2) takes less than a second to do. Sorry, but people who abbreviate shit like that should be met in an alley with a gallon gasoline and a blowtorch. No offense.

Not really, I just have an extremely low tolerance for out and out stupidity.

Oh, so you're intolerant towards yourself? Because only a dumbass would talk down to me over computer language (i used it because i was in a hurry). Do I talk down to you about being a dumbass? Well, maybe i do, bad example, but anyway, for future reference, if you're not going to answer my question, then shut the hell up. No one should care if i choose to use computer language. Only dumbasses or people who have issues care about stupid shit like that. Take your meds or punch a wall or something else and shut the hell up. That reminds me, how do i upload from my comp onto here?

Originally posted by CX returns
Oh, so you're intolerant towards yourself?
Yuk-yuk, CX, I'm sure you have an unbelievable ability to make many four year-olds jealous with a retort like that.
Originally posted by CX returns
Because only a dumbass would talk down to me over computer language (i used it because i was in a hurry).
Correction my feeble-minded quibbling querulous twerp of a friend: Pascal, C++, PHP, and Java are computer languages. Yours was something akin to what a mentally challenged person would communicate with.

Correction my feeble-minded quibbling querulous twerp of a friend: Pascal, C++, PHP, and Java are computer languages. Yours was something akin to what a mentally challenged person would communicate with. That's what I was thinking...what language acutally uses the word "noe"? Or "any one" ?

EXACTLY, Cricket - Who on EARTH is in that big of a hurry? Oh, no...pressed for time, can't include that K and actually spell the word correctly. That'd take an additional 3.1232662443 nanoseconds, and time is money - especially to a retarded Canadian kid.

LMAO Prae!

Originally posted by Travh20
i AM STILL TRYING TO FIGUE OUT HOW WE STOLE THE FREEDOM OF THE IRAQIS AND AFGHANIS

For a few hundred thousand of them, we "stole" it by causing them to die.....either thru direct violence or thru U.N. sanctions [that, it should be noted, were invoked due to U.S. insistence] that starved them to death or by deliberately poisoning water supplies that led to mass die-offs from the spread of various diseases.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Yuk-yuk, CX, I'm sure you have an unbelievable ability to make many four year-olds jealous with a retort like that. [QUOTE]

No, i was just stating that because you were intolerant to stupity, that you were intolerant yourself. Besides i don't know anyone who is four... but i do know a couple of people who have the mental reasoning of a four year old, and many of them happen to be republican. Go figure

[QUOTE]Correction my feeble-minded quibbling querulous twerp of a friend: Pascal, C++, PHP, and Java are computer languages. Yours was something akin to what a mentally challenged person would communicate with.

Now, Now, my ignorant little pissant, we don't want talk like that on this forums, but republicans like you never learned to talk nice... or develop any reasoning power... or to talk in the other sides opinion about things and not insult them like a four year old (hey what do ya know, i know someone else with the mental reasoning of a four year old! Yay!). Anyway, your stupidity and willingness to insult people over stupid things aside, computer language can also be considered to be langauge like this:

yo, kan yah ghet that program fo me, thad be gr8!

anyone would recognize that as computer langauge or messenger langauge, whatever floats your boat. In short, only a dumbass would rip me over something as stupid as this.

[QUOTE][B]EXACTLY, Cricket - Who on EARTH is in that big of a hurry? Oh, no...pressed for time, can't include that K and actually spell the word correctly. That'd take an additional 3.1232662443 nanoseconds, and time is money - especially to a retarded Canadian kid.[QUOTE][B]

You do realize you are not Rex Murphy rightÉ (keyboard screwed up, getting french crap, dunno how to fix, reply with retarded post after reading). Its better to be a (Q)Retarded(Q) kid than a dumbass ignorant american( dont insult me intelligent Americans, i know you are out there, and i wasnt refering to you). Youd be surprised how busy my life is. According to your logic, a student who just so happens to be in Academic classes with a 75% average just so happens to be retarded, even though he is in perfect mental health. I like your logic, i really do. Really i havenèt heard anything that stupid since Ann Coulter stated that the Canadian Government sent troops to Vietnam during the Vietnam war and made an ass of herself on national TV.

Edit: Grr... stupid thing, anyway will some tell me how to upload pics from my hard driveÉ (F*cking french stuff!!!) thanks.

I swear, from what i've seen, Praetorian learned how to argue using this guide:

http://ninjapirate.com/logic.html

why do we hate the iraqis so much to starve and poison them to death freethinker? what do the elected leaders of the United States have against iraqis civilians?

Originally posted by CX returns
Now, Now, my ignorant little pissant, we don't want talk like that on this forums, but republicans like you never learned to talk nice... or develop any reasoning power... or to talk in the other sides opinion about things and not insult them like a four year old (hey what do ya know, i know someone else with the mental reasoning of a four year old! Yay!). Anyway, your stupidity and willingness to insult people over stupid things aside, computer language can also be considered to be langauge like this:

yo, kan yah ghet that program fo me, thad be gr8!
May I suggest you hone your writing skills before applying borrowed glories as a mere typist? [/sarcasm]

Great job explaining something that didn’t need to explained, brainiac. ;)
Originally posted by CX returns
In short, only a dumbass would rip me over something as stupid as this.
Correction: only an armpit-licking sub-literate simpleton would choose to communicate like you did.

Originally posted by CX returns
(keyboard screwed up, getting french crap, dunno how to fix (there's a shocker...), reply with retarded post after reading). Its better to be a (Q)Retarded(Q) kid than a dumbass ignorant american. Youd be surprised how busy my life is. According to your logic, a student who just so happens to be in Academic classes (what...as opposed to Yoga classes, dipshit?) with a 75% average (Congratulations...you're MEDICORE) just so happens to be retarded, even though he is in perfect mental health. I like your logic, i really do. Really i havenèt heard anything that stupid since Ann Coulter stated that the Canadian Government sent troops to Vietnam during the Vietnam war and made an ass of herself on national TV. (In some way, you must be under the impression that I give a shit. Blow it out your ass, you congenitally clueless pulp of stultifying inanity.)
You're a massively befouled conglomerate of intellectual constipation, and that's pretty impressive for a Canadian mouth breather.

Btw, I'll throw down on an IQ test with you any day of the week, Junior.

Originally posted by Travh20
why do we hate the iraqis so much to starve and poison them to death freethinker?

If the *we* in the sentence above refers to the political leadership in the US.......I would not accuse them of really "hating" anyone.

But let us be quite clear;

....they WILL, without the slightest hesitation, kill any person or any group of persons, no matter the number of people in that group, should those people interfere with the PROFITS of US Corporations.



Originally posted by Travh20
what do the elected leaders of the United States have against iraqis civilians?

Personally??

Nothing. Nada.

Oh sure, the elected leaders have USED the farcical --"Why, the people over there are evil wrong-God people who are jealous of us and want to kill ALL of us!!"-- fucking lie, but that was not out of hatred, but simply for the purpose of inciting the dimwitted Public here to accept the coming slaughter in Iraq.


The Iraqi people just have the misfortune of being in the way of billions in profits for huge Defense and Petrochemical companies operating in Iraq.

I dont recall anyone saying anything about religion being part of the reason we invaded, except of course the insane left wingers who could find a way to turn anything into a profit driven crime

Oh, no...pressed for time, can't include that K and actually spell the word correctly Prea - You're in no position to complain about grammer nazis. You gave me shit a while back.

BTW its spelled know not knoe.
:banana:

(man I can't get enough of that dancing banana)
(BTW banana = haha, funny)

Hey buddy, next time include all of my post instead of cutting bits and pieces out.

Now, Now, my ignorant little pissant, we don't want talk like that on this forums, but republicans like you never learned to talk nice... or develop any reasoning power... or to talk in the other sides opinion about things and not insult them like a four year old (hey what do ya know, i know someone else with the mental reasoning of a four year old! Yay!). Anyway, your stupidity and willingness to insult people over stupid things aside, computer language can also be considered to be langauge like this:

yo, kan yah ghet that program fo me, thad be gr8


May I suggest you hone your writing skills before applying borrowed glories as a mere typist? [/sarcasm]

Great job explaining something that didn’t need to explained, brainiac.

No i had to explain it because for some reason you didn't have enough brain power and too much stupidity to figure out what i was talking about earlier. For example:

Correction my feeble-minded quibbling querulous twerp of a friend: Pascal, C++, PHP, and Java are computer languages. Yours was something akin to what a mentally challenged person would communicate with.

Oh yea, don't diss the mentally challange. I got a friend who is challanged you fuck. As for the language "they" would communicate with, it would be english jackass, something some of the republican citizens can't even speak properly or write/ type very good.

As for your other commentary:

In short, only a dumbass would rip me over something as stupid as this. (Me)
Correction: only an armpit-licking sub-literate simpleton would choose to communicate like you did. (You)

Again with the insults. Care to come up with something relevent or will you continue to waste my time with insults? This may come as a shock to you, but i actually have a life. You know school work, friends, etc. Nothing like conspiracy theories, bashing the left, or filling your head with more Fox garbage, just normal things that we teenagers do.

Btw, I'll throw down on an IQ test with you any day of the week, Junior.

I feel i might be at a disadvantage here. Mainly because of the fact you may be older than i am, and therefore may have gone for post seconadry education somewhere, whereas i'm just a 16 year old still learning about the world and its history. However if you prove that you have the same intelligence on the forums as you do in real life, i feel that i could take you on the IQ test.

Youd be surprised how busy my life is. According to your logic, a student who just so happens to be in Academic classes (what...as opposed to Yoga classes, dipshit?) with a 75% average (Congratulations...you're MEDICORE).

No it means i'm pretty smart by the school standards (Academic is the highest education level). I thought i'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you were an intelligent person. Thanks for showing me i was nuts to even think that. To translate what the 75% is for the stupid people in here, it's a B. B is not medicore. Thanks for proving that your a dumbass Prae.

Anyway i'm done arguing with you on this subject if you are. If you got nothing else to say, then good. if you want to keep pointing out grammer mistakes, acting like a dumbass and making a big deal about stupid shit like you usually do, then go right ahead. i won't stop you, you'll just end up looking like a fucking moron day-in, day-out.

Originally posted by Freethinker
For a few hundred thousand of them, we "stole" it by causing them to die.....either thru direct violence or thru U.N. sanctions [that, it should be noted, were invoked due to U.S. insistence] that starved them to death or by deliberately poisoning water supplies that led to mass die-offs from the spread of various diseases.

We'll never know how much money in food and aid was siphoned away from the citizens from Iraq by Kofi Anon, France, Russia and Germany. It's over a billion (that we know of). That kind of money might have saved some of those "few hundred thousand".

This was one of the few times the world was supposed to get out of the way and leave it to the UN.

Originally posted by Brooks
We'll never know how much money in food and aid was siphoned away from the citizens from Iraq by Kofi Anon, France, Russia and Germany.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And even if people in high positions in France, Germany and Russia --as you allege-- profited thru dishonest acts, I am still hard pressed to think of a more heinous act than poisoning the water supplies of the people of a decimated, defeated and disease-riddled nation.