I thought I'd set up this new post to further discuss the effects of socioeconomics/education/environment on religious beliefs.

This subject was briefly discussed in Stark's Bible thread (by Loki, Blob, and Vile), and I feel it deserves a section of it's own.

WELL.... maybe no one else is interested......

Here's my 2 cents anyway.

Blob had stated in his experiences in England that religion was much more common in the poorer areas (where hope was in higher demand). I can see how that would be the case.

Vile stated that England's reverence for higher education has made them less secular. I can also see how this could effect religious participation/belief.

The strange thing about the area I live (rural S.E. U.S. "Bible Belt") is that for the most part the better educated and influential citizens ARE the ones who attend church regularly. The poorer and less educated are the least likely to attend/participate.

Please no jokes about how the Southern U.S. is "backward"....... LOL.

I've often wondered why this is. Maybe it's a social issue and not a religious one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OldPhart


The strange thing about the area I live (rural S.E. U.S. "Bible Belt") is that for the most part the better educated and influential citizens ARE the ones who attend church regularly. The poorer and less educated are the least likely to attend/participate.
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Having lived mainly in the South I noticed that the participation in large churches was mainly the upper class and 'wanta be's.' The smaller community churches mainly seemed to consist of the more common folks.
The very poor seem not to attend church, but many send their children via church buses that pick up and bring them back on Sundays.
I do not know if this is to help them learn of religion or to get them out of the house for a few hours.

You can talk to the biggest drunk in town and he will tell you that he believes in God although he has no use for 'uppity church folks' and intends to live by his own standards. Says he has as much of a chance of getting to Heaven as those folks that sin all week and goes to church on Sunday. Says he might even stand a better chance because he did not try to fool anyone.

Originally posted by OldPhart
WELL.... maybe no one else is interested......

Here's my 2 cents anyway.

Blob had stated in his experiences in England that religion was much more common in the poorer areas (where hope was in higher demand). I can see how that would be the case.

Vile stated that England's reverence for higher education has made them less secular. I can also see how this could effect religious participation/belief.

The strange thing about the area I live (rural S.E. U.S. "Bible Belt") is that for the most part the better educated and influential citizens ARE the ones who attend church regularly. The poorer and less educated are the least likely to attend/participate.

Please no jokes about how the Southern U.S. is "backward"....... LOL.

I've often wondered why this is. Maybe it's a social issue and not a religious one.

I would be interested to know how the area where I live would break down. By U.S. standards I guess it would be termed very middle class but that would include both blue collar workers and white collar workers.

The city where I live is a computer hot-spot so we have an extremely young population making an incredible amount of money for their age. They are buying homes in the area that a decade ago would seldom have been purchased by anyone until their mid to late thirties.

Most people I know, I would term Christian and many if not most would attend church I think... but that is a guess.

The average education in this particular area would probably be grade 12 with some college or university. Plus this is a university city so there would be many highly educated people. My experience with the academic crowd (generalizing of course) is that many of them in this area are left leaning atheists. At least the last one I dated sure was and so were most of his friends.

I live in heavy bible belt wearing Kentucky.....and it's quite the opposite here.

Almost everyone is a believer.....and most of those people attend church. The church that I attended on Easter had a mix of well-to-do's, dirt poors, and even members of the local retirement home.

God's house should be the ultimate melting pot, because Heaven will be a mix of all his creations.

Religion is a self perpetuating disease.

I think education certainly has an impact because with it people learn to think for themselves and not take as given what is handed down. They also teach their offspring to think for themselves.

Of course educated people may still be religious, but they are more apt to have real reasons for it.

Brainwashing is not just the sport of the poor & uneducated but it is the poor are more educated in it.

Originally posted by OldPhart
Vile stated that England's reverence for higher education has made them less secular. I can also see how this could effect religious participation/belief.


Actually I made the point that higher education might make someone hold more secular beliefs.

Sorry Vile,

I should have said more secular not less.

I suffer from the occasional "brainfart" when typing, talking, .............. well, let's just say I suffer from periodic cerebral flatulence.

Sorry OP, I'd missed this thread.

Originally posted by OldPhart
Blob had stated in his experiences in England that religion was much more common in the poorer areas (where hope was in higher demand). I can see how that would be the case.
Actually I was saying religion is rife amongst the poor of Africa, but that in England the common man has a decent enough standard of living and opportunities to not find himself on his knees praying for things to get better.

Here's what I posted:
Britain's godlessness is part of a wider (particularly North West) European phenomenon.

I don't know why and this is strictly speculation.... But the common man of North West Europe has enjoyed an unprecedented high quality of life in material terms for the past half century or so. People just haven't had the hardship that results in hoping things will be better in an after-life. Although America has now replaced Europe as the dominant power the quality of life of many rural and urban Americans still remains relatively tough. The attraction of religion with its easy promises - all you have to do is believe - mean it is particularly prevalent amongst those with little material control over their lives (though not exclusively). This can be seen by the virulence of religion in Africa, India and so on. I lived in Africa 3 years and only ever met a handful of African atheists - and they were cosmopolitan sophisticates (comfortable city-based artists, teachers, journalists and the like). I have met and talked with hundreds of desperately poor people in my life - people who typically have seen their own children and family members die for want of money; people who go a day or two without eating every week to get by - and not one of them was an atheist. Indeed, such wretchedly poor people usually incessently pepper their way of talking with references to the divine. Poor souls. There ain't no justice in the world and I truly wish heaven existed for those who suffer grinding poverty. No wonder it's an attractive belief system - and this is why I honestly don't judge people accepting Jesus (or Allah or whatever) in a negative light.

To clarify - this is just my gut feeling on what is doubtlessly a very complicated issue.
http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10993&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

I remember having read an article about this a few month ago. Basically, it said that it is commonly admitted by sociologist that the richer and more educated a country is, the more secular it gets - which means that more people tend to be atheist, and that religion is less influencial on public life but tends to be considered as a private opinion.
This is true in Europe and Asia.
The article pointed out the fact that there is a big exception to this : the USA. In the USA, while the standard of living and education is one of the highest in the world, religion plays a very important part in people's lives and in the country life.
To explain this, there were historical reasons (the religious faith of the founding father), and also the fact that in the USA, unlike in most other countries, religions and churches were competing to attract people, with lots of money and modern marketing techniques. Religion, becoming a product, was successful like nowhere in the country of capitalism.

Originally posted by astrapol2
and also the fact that in the USA, unlike in most other countries, religions and churches were competing to attract people, with lots of money and modern marketing techniques. Religion, becoming a product, was successful like nowhere in the country of capitalism.

I read a similar article (perhaps even the same one) and competition was listed as one of the primary reasons for the continued "health" of religion in the U.S. But not so much because there was marketing of religion, but rather because people had more choices and were able to find religions that fit their own particular tastes, so to speak. Whereas in many other countries one particular religion tends to dominate, so it's more of a take it or leave it proposition.

Great post Lionel,

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Even in the somewhat rural area I live, there are a plethora of different denominations and/or churches to attend.

Many people "visit" many different churches before finding one that "fits" them best (if any do). This area is mainly protestant Christian and the gamut ranges from very conservative Primitive Baptists (even some snake-handlers) to the fairly liberal Episcopalian Churches. Even Churches within the same denomination can vary greatly in their belief and worship structure.

One other thing I might add, is that I feel many people choose their church also as a social institution. They find not only the worship/belief system that they prefer, but also enjoy the social functions of people with "like" beliefs.

Originally posted by OldPhart


One other thing I might add, is that I feel many people choose their church also as a social institution. They find not only the worship/belief system that they prefer, but also enjoy the social functions of people with "like" beliefs.

Sure. From what i read of you in another thread, it's precisely the fact that you changed church that made you an agnostic.
I agree that the lack of choice in religion - or even in churches - plays an important part in the secularistaion of Europe.
In France, churches are now an "old people" thing. You will hardly see people under 50 or 60 at most masses. This sure does not encourage young people to think religion is cool.
That sure played a part in my personal path from catholicism to atheism, even if I like to think it's most of all a rational decision.

astrapol2,

Many churches here in the US are "dying" too. They are mainly the congregations that refuse to evolve to fit the current times.

You initial post on this thread mentioned the effects of the marketing of religion in the US. This is also true to some degree. There is massive amounts of money spent by many churches to increase attendance (and thus increase income).

Most of these churches, in the area I live, that pursue this line of member enticement - are the "social" churches (where the attendees are much more concerned of their appearance to others, than their spirituality within themselves).

I appreciate your candor relating to the decision to move from Catholicism to Atheism. There are many reasons that people lose, gain, or return to religion besides pure rationalization.

I sometimes think religion is like a type of food; If you are force fed it, you tend to hate it. Some people will never like the taste of it. Some can't get enough of it (and don't understand why everyone doesn't love it), and other people's taste mutate to either like the flavor, or to abhor it.

Originally posted by astrapol2

That sure played a part in my personal path from catholicism to atheism, even if I like to think it's most of all a rational decision.

It seems that of all of the christian denominations, roman catholicism has the highest "burnout" rate.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
It seems that of all of the christian denominations, roman catholicism has the highest "burnout" rate.
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Lionel, what in your opinion causes this high burnout rate.
Could it be the rituals/idol thing, or more in the doctrines?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Lionel, what in your opinion causes this high burnout rate.
Could it be the rituals/idol thing, or more in the doctrines?

I dunno for sure. I would guess its the various dictates of the church regarding birth control, divorce, abortion, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Yes. And also the weight of the institution. It's a huge, very hierarchical, organization, that once was allpowerful in Europe and now just seems to be unable to cope with the modern society. Vatican II council tried to change this during the 60's but this spirit seems to be dead and now unfortunately the most powerful and dynamic part of catholicism is the most conservative.
There are some very positive parts of catholic church though and many people of great value - as in most religions. That's why, even if I don't beleive in god, I still believe religions can play a positive part in modern societies.