Religion ( in all of it's forms ) is and always has been what is wrong with the world. It has killed more people, promoted more prejudice, and started more wars than anything else in history.

Mika,

Sure you aren't confusing marriage with religion?

Yes, if only people were not religious, the world would be a perfect place!

You know what? I am sick and tired of you anti-religion pinko half-wits. You say that because people have committed atrocities in the name of religion, that makes religion bad. What fuzzy logic. If you knew ANYTHING at all about religion you would know that most religious people actually follow the doctrines that they subscribe to. These people do not commit these ikillings and such that you and your ilk are obsessed with. In fact religion is a POSITIVE influence on most involved. Thus it does more good than harm. Religion does bad things when people misinterpret or misrepresent the religion. But you pinko pinheads will never admit this, but that''s fine. You are entitled to your illusions.

I am probably not what you usually describe as a pinko pinhead since I agree with you, even though I am not a believer myself. Religions have many things to teach us, and even if I am not christian or Buddhist, I think there are many things to learn from the teachings of Jesus or Buddha.
Of course, this does not prevent me from being critic toward religions when they promote ideas or acts I don't suscribe too. And I also think that the freedom of thought and of speech has to be completed by the freedom of cult.
But I also think that the state should remain neutral and show no sign of religious preference, precisely to make sure that people from all religions are treated the same. In all the countries where religion and state are too tied, this is the cause of trouble. Example : Iran and Chiites, Saudi Arabia and Sunnites, Serbia and the Orthodox, Ireland and the Catholic church, Israel and Hebraism… This is why I worry when I hear Bush's many references to God. I do not deny him the right to be christian and to have christian values, but the fact that he uses this religion in politics.

I don't have a problem of you being critical. However, I feel that if some horrible act is committed in the name of religion (ie terrorism in the mid east), you should condemn the people committing the act, not the religion. Of course if you see a Christian following the "love one another" teaching and you don't like that, then you could condemn the religion, because the religion actually promotes that action.

As for Bush, there is nothing wrong with the President making references to God. It only becomes a problem when the government starts making laws based on a religious doctrine.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Yes, if only people were not religious, the world would be a perfect place!

You say that because people have committed atrocities in the name of religion, that makes religion bad. If you knew ANYTHING at all about religion you would know that most religious people actually follow the doctrines that they subscribe to. These people do not commit these killings and such that you and your ilk are obsessed with. In fact religion is a POSITIVE influence on most involved. Thus it does more good than harm. Religion does bad things when people misinterpret or misrepresent the religion. But you pinko pinheads will never admit this, but that''s fine. You are entitled to your illusions.


Oh please! Religion is all about how people interpret things that were written years ago. It's meanings twist and transform to accomidate the values of modern society, whatever they may be. How can you say what the correct interpretation is? Perhaps not all religious people now go off and kill others ( though there are still many examples all over the world of wars that are based on differences in religious beliefs ) but that is only because the phase that religion is in now is a mild one. Even so, you will not find people that harbor more prejudice than devoutly religious ones. The very nature of religion causes conflict. It requires that one devote themselves entirely to certian beliefs and values. Because people convince themselves that their religion is the correct one, conflict cannot help but occur when religious values clash. Like you just did, most religious people take any argument against their religion as an insult to their very being. This causes the most savage, longest lasting wars. The worst part is that you cannot carry a discussion with a deeply religious person; they simply cannot accept criticism. Though they may start out calm and friendly, they always become deeply angry when they cannot confute your arguments.

I simply do not understand the attraction to religion. Why on earth would anyone want to follow the ramblings of a bunch of half wits who knew less than any fifth grader today? Are you not capable of creating your own more relevant theories on the world and life in general? I am opposed to religion because it requires that one close their mind to everything but what they are being told. Listening to others will only cause you to quesiton your beliefs, and heaven forbid that you discover that perhaps the time that you have invested in your religion was a waste.

Originally posted by MikaSiku

Why on earth would anyone want to follow the ramblings of a bunch of half wits who knew less than any fifth grader today? Are you not capable of creating your own more relevant theories on the world and life in general? I am opposed to religion because it requires that one close their mind to everything but what they are being told.

This is a bit simplist ! If some people consider religions the way you decribe it, many other people find in religion a matter for deep reflexion about the place of mankind in the world, relations between people and the ways to make this world a better place. Some of the greatest minds of mankind were deeply religious. I know a lot of people who are believers and who are not the irresponsible fanatic idiots you describe.
And to create your "own more relevant theories on the world" you can always use the thoughts of people like Jesus, Buddha, Mohamet, whose religions may be criticised but who were not precisely stupid.
I would describe me as atheist but that doesn't mean I do not recognize the value of the Bible and many christian teachings and the positive influence they had on me.

And for Dave : my problem with any government making references to God is :
1- if he has no other argument, it means that he his mostly driven by religious beliefs in his acts as a president. He should not have any need to resort to religious arguments.
2- Who is he to reclaim himself from a god-driven crusade, to place himself on the side of good and his enemies on the side of evil ?
3- In the specific situation of post 9-11 world, were different communities could easily become antagonist inside your country, using the religious argument to support his action may only make things harder for those who try to make people from different religions live together peacefully.

Does anyone here know anything at all about the origins of the so-called religion of love, Christianity? Do you know who was the creator of its fundamental doctrines?

Tentmaker

Originally posted by MikaSiku
Oh please! Religion is all about how people interpret things that were written years ago. It's meanings twist and transform to accomidate the values of modern society, whatever they may be. How can you say what the correct interpretation is? Perhaps not all religious people now go off and kill others ( though there are still many examples all over the world of wars that are based on differences in religious beliefs ) but that is only because the phase that religion is in now is a mild one. Even so, you will not find people that harbor more prejudice than devoutly religious ones. The very nature of religion causes conflict. It requires that one devote themselves entirely to certian beliefs and values. Because people convince themselves that their religion is the correct one, conflict cannot help but occur when religious values clash. Like you just did, most religious people take any argument against their religion as an insult to their very being. This causes the most savage, longest lasting wars. The worst part is that you cannot carry a discussion with a deeply religious person; they simply cannot accept criticism. Though they may start out calm and friendly, they always become deeply angry when they cannot confute your arguments.

I simply do not understand the attraction to religion. Why on earth would anyone want to follow the ramblings of a bunch of half wits who knew less than any fifth grader today? Are you not capable of creating your own more relevant theories on the world and life in general? I am opposed to religion because it requires that one close their mind to everything but what they are being told. Listening to others will only cause you to quesiton your beliefs, and heaven forbid that you discover that perhaps the time that you have invested in your religion was a waste.

LMAO! Yes people can interpret religion how ever they want, but you would have to be pretty damn creative to interpret the Bible (at least) to condone killing. Give me a break. You are just an anti-establishment half-wit and there is no point in debating this with you.

Only radical religious people killed others in the name of religion. For example, only radical Muslims attacked the WTC, not mainstream. Most religious people don't go around killing people of another religion. That's what radicals do. Look at the Ten Commandments. Most Christians and Jews respect those Ten Commandments, even though there's a story somewhere else in the Bible/Torah that says that some guy killed some other guy.

True religious people are good people. THat's what I believe. I may not believe in God, but I still believe in many Christian ideals, for example the last 6 (I think; the ones not pertaining to God) Commandments. Don't lie. Don't steal. Don't cheat on your spouse or someone else's. Respect your mother & father (to a point, at least). Et cetera. Religion may have caused numerous wars and death, even today, but it also encourages people to do good. And all this has come from a true Atheist, Mika.

GOD OF JEWS AND CHRISTIANS A MURDERER-

God tries to kill Moses. 4:23-25
Moses has uncircumcised lips. 6:12, 6:30
God's first plague on the Egyptians: Rivers turned to blood. 7:17-22
(Pharaoh's magicians knew this trick, too.)
Second Plague: Frogs. (Pharaoh's magicians do likewise.) 8:2-7
Third Plague: Lice. (Pharaoh's magicians couldn't do this one!) 8:16-18
Fourth Plague: Flies. 8:21-24
Fifth Plague: God kills the cattle. 9:3
Sixth Plague: Boils. 9:9
Seventh Plague: Hail. 9:19
Eighth Plague: Locusts. 10:5
Ninth Plague: Darkness. 10:21
Tenth Plague: God kills firstborn children and animals. 12:29-30
God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. 4:23
God plans to murder the Egyptian firstborn humans and animals. 11:4-5, 12:12, 13:15
God murders the Egyptian firstborn humans and animals. 12:30
God plans to drown Pharaoh's army. 14:17-18
God drowns Pharaoh's army. 14:27-28
"The Lord is a man of war." 15:3
God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers. 20:5, 34:7
(unto the third and fourth generations)
Instructions for buying a slave. 21:2
Instructions for selling your daughter. 21:7
Instructions for taking a second wife. 21:10
Children who strike their parents are to be killed. 21:15
It's OK to beat a slave as long as he lives a day or two "for he is his money." 21:20-21
Abortion is not a capital crime. 21:22
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." 22:18
You must kill those who worship another god. 22:20
If you misbehave, God will kill you with his own sword . 22:24
God's feet. 24:10
God's finger. 8:19, 31:18
Sabbath breakers must be killed. 31:14-15, 35:2
God repents. 32:14
God tells every man to slay "his brother, companion, neighbor." 32:27
God speaks to Moses "face to face." 33:11
God shows Moses his "back parts." 33:23
God's name is "Jealous." 34:14

Tentmaker

Okay, I've defended religion once, so I won't do it again, not when I'm not religious.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
LMAO! Yes people can interpret religion how ever they want, but you would have to be pretty damn creative to interpret the Bible (at least) to condone killing. Give me a break. You are just an anti-establishment half-wit and there is no point in debating this with you.



Did you even read my post? I did not say that the Bible condones killing ( that is a whole different debate! ) I said that religious beliefs cause many people to fight and kill. As far as you not participating in this debate anymore goes, you have yet to. All you have done, in the manner of a typical religious fanatic I might add, is insult those who disagree with you. This merely proves my point. When an otherwise perfectly coherent human bieng, with many opinions similar to my own, is engaged in a conversation about religion, they freak out and automatically present a holier than thou atitude in order to prevent any real discussion.

The end of the factual debate on Christianity ends at this point. It is claimed that Jesus was from Nazarath. That is a lie. The town of Nazarath was not founded until some 200 years after the alledged death of the questionable messiah.

Tentmaker

Originally posted by astrapol2
This is a bit simplist ! If some people consider religions the way you decribe it, many other people find in religion a matter for deep reflexion about the place of mankind in the world, relations between people and the ways to make this world a better place. Some of the greatest minds of mankind were deeply religious. I know a lot of people who are believers and who are not the irresponsible fanatic idiots you describe.
And to create your "own more relevant theories on the world" you can always use the thoughts of people like Jesus, Buddha, Mohamet, whose religions may be criticised but who were not precisely stupid.
I would describe me as atheist but that doesn't mean I do not recognize the value of the Bible and many christian teachings and the positive influence they had on me.




I am sure that if you look hard enough, and read enough into it, you can find a point of deep reflection in anything. As for religion being an example for how to treat others, I sure as hell hope no one follows it's lead. Look at the bible, according to it, black people are black because Ham decided to take advantage of his father when he was drunk. Women should be completely submissive to men, and let's not even mention it's thoughts on gay people! The good points in religion, the ones that people should live by, are often blatantly obvious to any human being, and the good that they do is largely negated by the damage that is done when people take it upon themselves to interperet them. I am not of the opinion that any belief in anything is bad; infact, when religion is taken at surface value, it can have a positive influence. It is when people look deeper into it that the trouble begins. I did not say that all religious people are idiots, but the reason that so many great minds were religious is because religion was the norm, and belief in the existance of a higher being is comforting. I for one am not willing to accept any information presented to me as fact simply because generations before me have.

Originally posted by Tentmaker
The end of the factual debate on Christianity ends at this point. It is claimed that Jesus was from Nazarath. That is a lie. The town of Nazarath was not founded until some 200 years after the alledged death of the questionable messiah.

Tentmaker



The facts rarely bother " true believers ". You make a good argument for those who will listen though.

Mika,

"Believers" are beyond the service of facts. The non-existent Nazarath is one of my weaker arguments against the falsity called Christianity.

Tentmaker

Isn't the cause of all wars & the worlds problems - blind dogmatic belief, greed and lack of acceptance?

I don't see how Religion is the cause but it certainly could easily be labeled as the hook upon which these things get hung.

Drew,

The lure that attracts the unknowing fish?

Tentmaker

Originally posted by DrewM
Isn't the cause of all wars & the worlds problems - blind dogmatic belief, greed and lack of acceptance?

I don't see how Religion is the cause but it certainly could easily be labeled as the hook upon which these things get hung.



Blind dogmatic belief, lack of acceptance, my dear you are defining the way that religion effects people. It is because of these beliefs that many wars and cruelties have occured in the past. Of course religion is not responsible for absolutely every negative thing that has ever occured; I phrased my initial post that way merely to get a raise out of those who read it. ( a thinly veiled shout out to Dave Tooner! )

My point is that the world does not need religion. Regardless of whether or not it began as a good thing, most religions have been twisted and taken so far out of context that they mean nothing anyways. Virtually all have roots in violence and hate, and I think that it is past time for people to place that crap behind them.

Blind dogmatic belief, lack of acceptance, my dear you are defining the way that religion effects people

Thats one way to look at it - another way to look at it is this describes human nature in an uneducated setting. If it wasn't religion it would just be something else. People will be people afterall. Certainly a lot of bad has happened in the name of religion - but a lot has happened in the name of freedom too.

I'm not defending religion - I'm not a religious person, I'm just defending common sense.

Originally posted by DrewM
Thats one way to look at it - another way to look at it is this describes human nature in an uneducated setting. If it wasn't religion it would just be something else. People will be people afterall. Certainly a lot of bad has happened in the name of religion - but a lot has happened in the name of freedom too.

I'm not defending religion - I'm not a religious person, I'm just defending common sense.



I am all for the study of religion as a means of disecting human nature, it is when people cling to it as fact that I get annoyed. The terrible things that have been done in the name of religion and the fight for freedom are two entirely different things. Most horrible deeds that the church has committed have been a result of wanting to force their religion on others; whereas the fight for freedom has exactally the opposite goal. It is fought based on the fact that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and customs.

My comment about the fight for freedom was simply comparative - to highlight my point that lots of bad things have been done in the name of many things but the cause was not fundamentally the stated cause. But - to use the fight for freedom as an example - yes it is very different, but do you think every act ever done in the name of freedom was done for totally enlightened reasons & there was no follow the leader mentality?

The truth is that people cling to lots of things that are false - you shouldn't let it get you annoyed - people do what they understand. I too find organized religion oppressive but within that generality there is a lot of good - nothing is black and white & you cannot blame the world's ills on anything other than human nature

Originally posted by DrewM
But - to use the fight for freedom as an example - yes it is very different, but do you think every act ever done in the name of freedom was done for totally enlightened reasons & there was no follow the leader mentality?

The truth is that people cling to lots of things that are false - you shouldn't let it get you annoyed - people do what they understand. I too find organized religion oppressive but within that generality there is a lot of good - nothing is black and white & you cannot blame the world's ills on anything other than human nature



I do not compare the two because, in my opinion, they are simply far too different. The reason that I am so against people clinging to false beliefs is because I have experienced first hand ( through no fault of my own ) just how terrible that can be. As I stated before, I know that all of the world's problems cannot be blamed on religion, but the need to blindly follow the crowd, that is such a large part of religion, is an aspect of human nature that we could do without.

Mika,

You stated, "the need to blindly follow the crowd, that is such a large part of religion, is an aspect of human nature that we could do without."

Are you proposing that the -herd instinct-be eradicated?

What you said could be mis-construed as being a racist statement. Realize that the -herd instinct- is most pronounced in the Black and Brown races. That primitive urge is very weak in the White race.

Tentmaker

Another nice piece of racist ideology by Tentmaker.

Astrapol2,

I call 'em as I see 'em. Aren't you aware that the Blacks get incensed when they learn of a White talking about -herd instict-? It usually provokes the same sort of anger in them as a discussion of "The Bell Curve".

Tentmaker

I'm not getting any further in that kind of debate.

Astrapol2,

Afraid of what you may discover about yourself?

Tentmaker

Keep this for teenagers. I have no lessons to take from you.

Astrapol2,

Lessons? Am without a clue as to what you mean by that statement. My question to you was based on my perceiving your un-rest with certain topics. One assumes that it lies in an immature development of personal beliefs.

Tentmaker

Originally posted by Tentmaker
Astrapol2,

Lessons? Am without a clue as to what you mean by that statement. My question to you was based on my perceiving your un-rest with certain topics. One assumes that it lies in an immature development of personal beliefs.

Tentmaker

One is losing his time assuming things about people one doesn't know.

Astrapol2,

Not so. A study of people is always profitable. Impressions sent winging their way through cyberspace are often very reliable.

Tentmaker

only one thing out of many that could be said am i going to say.
In the Qu'ran it states that killing another human being is the most evil thing imaginable for a muslim to do. yet the almighty and praised Mohammed goes on a bloody rampage killing hundreds of people with his bloodthirsty army just to promote that very religion....contradiction springs to mind???? thats all i want to say. i'm a christian myself. the depth you people go into scares me. lol

Predslayer,

The correct spelling is Qur'an, or Qur'aan-your choice. That which you claim is no where stated in the Qur'an(my choice of spelling). Islam is the religion of the warrior, and Jihaad is his way of getting to heaven. The command of Allah as given to Mahomet and written in the Qur'an is that the faithful Muslim will go forth and kill the infidels. A failure to so disqualifies the Muslim for the heavenly blessings of 70 virgins and 70 young boys to attend to all the warrior's carnal needs.

The Prophet Mahomet's normal form of warfare was to impale babbies on spears and parade the through the towns and villages to terrify the people. Those children not murdered were raped and then killed. The average age of rape victims was 8 years.

Can you prove that you are a Christian?

What depths are you speaking of?

Tentmaker

^(sorry for taking so long to reply. i was on hols.)^
What do you mean can i prove i am christian?? of course im christian you twat. now shut up and stop rabbling crap u imbicile. (sorry about the spelling of Qur'an/Qu'ran wotever. we only done the basics in RE. in which by the way, we were told the rules of Islam taught by the Qu'ran, and it said that killing is forbidden. so sorry if i was misinformed but thats wot i was told) sorry again for any misinformatives i may have uttered

Pred(avert},

You all another one of the local idiots?

If you claim to be a Christian, the odds are 1000 to 1 that you are not. Of course, you aren't, and never will be. You are too stupid to achieve the mandatory degree of hypocrisy.

Tentmaker

where do you get all of these stupid false facts. The chances are 1000 to 1 that you arent.........what a load of shite. i dont care if its an official fact, its still a load of shite. how would you know anyway. i am a christian. i attend Holy Cross church just down the road from me and the usual priest is Fr.Tommy. now go get some facts on that you lying asshole.

Pred(avert),

Holy Cross House of queers, overseen by head pedophile Fr. Tommy.

I know the score.

Which deition of the Holy Queer Book do you prefer?

Tentmaker

what the hell .....?? do you even know where holy cross church is. and calling fr.tommy a paedo which you cant even spell rite...well thats just wrong. hes an old man. and apparently you dont know the score, because every time you're proven wrong you start insulting people and their beliefs. you really are a huge prick you know that. i know now why you are called tentmaker. you live in a tent because you have no friends. cu*t

Pred(avert),

You need to visit your friendly dictionary. Talking about one who can't spell. You are a blight upon the English language, and a curse from your parents.

I am a "hugh prick"? Well, I am generously endowed, but I don't boast of the gift of a mighty staff.

Contrary to your indelicate opinion, I am called Tentmaker because of my profound, some say divine, wisdom.

Tentmaker

Religion itself isn't what to blame. The beliefs are generally good. It's the stupid people who try to interpret them, or use them for their own personal gain. Take Christianity, for example. Christianity doesn't teach killing in the name of Christianity. Yet a bunch of stupid people a while back thought it did, and we had the Crusades.

ClassAction,

Ever hear of "Not one jot or tittle shall in any wise pass out till all be fulfilled."?

If you have then your assertion is false. For the Old Testament (Torah) is replete with passages where YHWH commanded the Israelites to commint murder.


Tentmaker