Can they be obtained through spiritual practice?

Because if they can thats 1 million cool notes in the bank.

Second time I've posted this today.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Well, as Christ said, if you have a faith as a mustard seed, you can say to a mountain 'move' and it will move. One can certainly grow in faith by practice.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Can they be obtained through spiritual practice?

This is a good question, can a person learn powers or are they born with them? I tend to think we are born with certain gifts and not everyone has the same gifts. One person may be able to move objects while another can see into the future. I think a person would have to connect with themself and their power. Spiritual practice covers a large area, there is being self spiritual and then there is belonging to a group.

The million dollar prize having never been claimed is a pretty clear indicator that no one can actually demonstrate supernatural powers.

I still believe for some reason (maybe because it's so damn cool).

May be not enough people know about it. Or may be, as somebody pointed out, they don't want to be "pointed at" as the weird-o.

Ed, Don't forget about how our government used people with powers to find secret area's. It was not 100%{but nothing or gov. does is :) }but they did have positive results and even to this day they are still doing research. There must be something going on for the big wigs to step in. Also if you had powers would you run right down and through yourself at the mercy of others? you amy just disapear all together????????????

Originally posted by mad dog
Ed, Don't forget about how our government used people with powers to find secret area's. It was not 100%{but nothing or gov. does is :) }but they did have positive results and even to this day they are still doing research. There must be something going on for the big wigs to step in. Also if you had powers would you run right down and through yourself at the mercy of others? you amy just disapear all together????????????

I believe (I am on the path myself) but it seems like someone would make a cion fall off a table 100 times or something simple just to get the cool mill.

Ed, stay on the path. You can accomplish much. Most of all do not listen to the negatives of uninformed people, as you progress you will look at them as lost children.
As for the million bucks- awareness will make it unimportant. You will have all that you need without the publicity. Every thing that you need will come to you.

It's very interesting the way you phrased it, Dan. Because we, Christians, think the same way. We are on the path, others are uninformed and are lost children. True Christian doesn't need publicity, God sees his/her good actions and He will reward that person. Everything that we will even need will be given to us once we die.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Ed, stay on the path. You can accomplish much. Most of all do not listen to the negatives of uninformed people, as you progress you will look at them as lost children.
As for the million bucks- awareness will make it unimportant. You will have all that you need without the publicity. Every thing that you need will come to you.

That was a nice positive read for a Sunday morning even though I haven't had my coffee yet. :)

Every thing that you need will come to you.

This part still shocks me because daily it is reinforced. The thing with this though is that it is not just some "magical" thinking where everything falls into line. One has to maintain a balance in all things done and thought. But I think most important of all is honesty with self about everything ..total honesty and that is what makes the journey so hard and yet so intrguing.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Can they be obtained through spiritual practice?

I would say...yes and no...:D

Yes and no because it is not about "obtaining" them it is about awakening them. We all have them. With some it is closer to the surface than with others.

I think spiritual practise actually just quiets the mind and allows us to hone in on them. Just because we can not see something does not mean it does not exist it just means our awareness is limited or blocked.

The path to these supernatural gifts can be varied. My believe system is extremely eclectic because it is such a mix of things and my base is Christian so rather (traditional) for the Western world in one sense, extremely bizarre in another sense. But it works for me and it bears fruit every day. You will know as you head down different paths what is right and "light" and what is wrong and "dark". Learn to trust yourself through trial and error and by maintaining a willingness to turn back and go another way when things are wrong, not hard but wrong...there is a difference between difficult and wrong and you will learn to distinguish and that will lead to a trust and then an open mind to all things being possible...

Originally posted by mad dog
This is a good question, can a person learn powers or are they born with them? I tend to think we are born with certain gifts and not everyone has the same gifts. One person may be able to move objects while another can see into the future. I think a person would have to connect with themself and their power. Spiritual practice covers a large area, there is being self spiritual and then there is belonging to a group.

I agree with your "gifts differing". We have to know what is uniquely ours and how we are "called" to use them...for I believe we are all called in one way or another.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
It's very interesting the way you phrased it, Dan. Because we, Christians, think the same way. We are on the path, others are uninformed and are lost children. True Christian doesn't need publicity, God sees his/her good actions and He will reward that person. Everything that we will even need will be given to us once we die.

Yes, it is a parallel path but I believe it is heading in the same direction "towards the light". You likely believe I am heading in the opposite direction... :D

I do not judge your path to be wrong. I believe it to be right for you for now. You on the other hand believe anyone not on your path to be not only miguided but eternally damned.

It's all about perspective

No it's not. I completely disagree. God is God, for me and for you and for them. Just because some choose to ignore Him and close their eyes, doesn't me He stops existing for them. If a truck is coming straight at me, I can close my eyes and say "there is no truck", but I'll end up dead anyways.
As for you, I think that as long as you accept Christ and the Bible, you are OK. Though, I hope you don't get too lost. Too often we think we see the "truth" and the "light", when in fact, it's just a glitter of the real light--God.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by STOpandthink
As for you, I think that as long as you accept Christ and the Bible, you are OK.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

People are (OK) that do or do not accept Christ and the Bible!
My statement carries just as much weight as the above. I am not prejudice from one to another-for I am aware.

This whole "I know I'm right" disucssion sounds like an all round case of "the lady doth protest too much" to my ears.

It's as though you're all busy trying to convince youselves. My call on "We are on the path" and "I am aware" and the like is that they are mantras of self-assurance.

The irony is we have people who's beliefs bear a striking resemblance to Marvel characters and people who take a book of fairytales just a little too seriously calling one another children.

Blob go to the light, open your eyes, see the light. "didn't work?" okay eat the mushroom take the red pill, now go to the light, oh watch out for the pink goat with 3 eyes he's not nice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob
[B]This whole "I know I'm right" disucssion sounds like an all round case of "the lady doth protest too much" to my ears.
----------------------------------------------

Sure Blob, we should all know that you are the one thats "right."

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE][i]Sure Blob, we should all know that you are the one thats "right."

I would have thought that the same perception-widening logic of your sig should lead you to conclude something to the effect of "no one is right, all are right".

I'm an atheist but I might well be wrong. Hell, I don't know what it all means or why we are here. I'm adult enough to say that. I have made my doubt and uncertainty explicit in both my screen title and my sig.

I wonder if any mystics or theists can in all honesty post words to the effect of "I don't actually know much and could be totally wrong" and really mean it like I do.

Originally posted by Blob


I wonder if any mystics or theists can in all honesty post words to the effect of "I don't actually know much and could be totally wrong" and really mean it like I do.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I did not know much almost half-a-century ago when I began investigation. I know more now. I do not know everything.
I draw my conclusions as you apparently do, by that which I have or have not personally witnessed.
My advice to anyone is to keep an open mind, for with an open mind one will continue to learn until the last breath is taken.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I draw my conclusions as you apparently do, by that which I have or have not personally witnessed.

We all draw our conclusions from our senses (all 6 of them in your opinion) in a literal sense.

But personally I also accept second hand evidence and believe in things I have never directly sensed, such as atoms (yet not spirits). In addition I trust selected authorities, rightly or wrongly (though not unreservedly by any means), such as the bbc, my parents or favourite writers.

Everything is true.

Originally posted by Blob
I would have thought that the same perception-widening logic of your sig should lead you to conclude something to the effect of "no one is right, all are right".

I'm an atheist but I might well be wrong. Hell, I don't know what it all means or why we are here. I'm adult enough to say that. I have made my doubt and uncertainty explicit in both my screen title and my sig.

I wonder if any mystics or theists can in all honesty post words to the effect of "I don't actually know much and could be totally wrong" and really mean it like I do.

Some can and some can't...what is your point...that you are the adult and somehow elevated because you are an atheist ... and that places the rest of us where according to you?

Why do you presume you are the only open minded one? You don't present in a very open minded way at all. You present as though you don't know so no one else should know or have a different amount of surety than you. Maybe, just maybe, some have had life-altering experiences which you have not yet had.


Just because we do not begin every post with..."well I might be wrong here... or I don't actually know much" doesn't mean we aren't questioning or seeking to discover. Isn't that what posting is about... sharing views and ideas?

It's interesting how you pick your sources, Blob. Your parents. Though someone (may be not you) claimed that I (and others) are Christians because of our relatives.
You believe atoms, yet not spirits....Interesting. I never saw any one of them. Books and scientists say atoms exist, the Bible and many other people say spirit exist. Seems rather equal to me.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Some can and some can't...what is your point...that you are the adult and somehow elevated because you are an atheist ... and that places the rest of us where according to you?

Why do you presume you are the only open minded one?
Quite where I have said these things I don't know (open minded is a phrase I avoid because it has overtones of guillibility). My point is that both mystics and theists commonly expresses sentiments to the effect of "others are like children" and "I am right" and this thread is a case in point. I hear it so often that it sounds like people trying to convince themselves - a case of "the lady doth protest too much" as I put it earlier.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Just because we do not begin every post with..."well I might be wrong here... or I don't actually know much" doesn't mean we aren't questioning or seeking to discover.
Absolutely. But comments like those I paraphrased above do.

I am also commonly told I am closed minded by mystics and theists (STOp has done so this very day in the dinosaurs thread). Apparently I should open my mind.

Yet those who advocate this never-defined "open mindedness" also commonly talk of having seen "the light" and to be journeying towards it. Sounds like a case of tunnel vision to me.

You present as though you don't know so no one else should know or have a different amount of surety than you. Maybe, just maybe, some have had life-altering experiences which you have not yet had.
I have had many profound and intense experiences in my life that have impacted on my outlook. I guess I'm just not open minded enough to then go ahead and declare myself "right".

Originally posted by STOpandthink
It's interesting how you pick your sources, Blob. Your parents. Though someone (may be not you) claimed that I (and others) are Christians because of our relatives.
I wouldn't put it quite like that but, yes, religious conviction follows clear cultural and geographical boundaries. Parents are indeed a big influence on most people's lives. This does not exclude atheists.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
You believe atoms, yet not spirits....Interesting. I never saw any one of them. Books and scientists say atoms exist, the Bible and many other people say spirit exist. Seems rather equal to me.
I addressed this issue rather thoroughly here:
http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10679

I don't know whether atoms or spirits exist. But I believe in the former because it is a very powerful way to view the world and brings a lot of understanding; from Rutherford's experiments through to quantum mechanics; from understanding how graphite and diamond are made of the same element through to understanding why balloons go down after a few days; and on and on and on and on....

Spirit seems to be an ill-defined word which is applied like a band-aid to gaps in understanding. Vague and profound emotional experiences are described as spiritual, as though saying the word is enough to explain it.

Originally posted by Blob
Quite where I have said these things I don't know (open minded is a phrase I avoid because it has overtones of guillibility). My point is that both mystics and theists commonly expresses sentiments to the effect of "others are like children" and "I am right" and this thread is a case in point. I hear it so often that it sounds like people trying to convince themselves - a case of "the lady doth protest too much" as I put it earlier.

I don't understand what this particular quote from Hamlet has to do with this particular thread...

Who is protesting what here? No one protested anything.

As for people here feeling they are right why would someone post a "personal belief" in a thread about mysticism if they did not believe and endorse that thought?

I do not know what you are trying to say other than you are the adult and we are children because in your opinion it is like believing that Marvel comic books are true.

Your are trying to be insulting and demeaning without appearing to... why?

I couldn't care less if you opened your mind unless you are unhappy with where you currently are in your life. If you are then maybe a little "gullibility and tunnel vision" would be a good thing.

If not, who cares... but if you do not care then why the need to try to elevate yourself or reduce those around you to less than what you perceive yourself to be?


Blob said:
I have had many profound and intense experiences in my life that have impacted on my outlook. I guess I'm just not open minded enough to then go ahead and declare myself "right".

My intent was not to minimize your personal experiences or to lessen the profoundness of their impact upon your life. Rather my comment was to say that their life altering experiences may have led them in a different direction than the rest of the pack. It does not make them wrong NOR childish simply because they have drawn a different conclusion than most.

If they think that they are "right" and it gives them peace and contentment... then why belittle them for it?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I don't understand what this particular quote from Hamlet has to do with this particular thread...

Who is protesting what here? No one protested anything.
They protest the possibility of being wrong. Incessently.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
As for people here feeling they are right why would someone post a "personal belief" in a thread about mysticism if they did not believe and endorse that thought?
Personal beliefs do not necessitate denouncing others as wrong and childish.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
I do not know what you are trying to say other than you are the adult and we are children because in your opinion it is like believing that Marvel comic books are true.
My point is mystics and theists commonly say disbelievers are "like children". I say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We are all childish:
mystics - who believe, like all children and lke I did as a child, that they just might have superpowers
theists - with their book of fairytales
atheists - with their geekiness, cynicism and dinosaur books that most grow out of in their teens

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Your are trying to be insulting and demeaning without appearing to... why?
I'm British. Polite but insulting is our culture.


Originally posted by ~Sal~
I couldn't care less if you opened your mind unless you are unhappy with where you currently are in your life. If you are then maybe a little "gullibility and tunnel vision" would be a good thing.
You assume happiness is better than wisdom. Maybe; but personally I'm not decided.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
If not, who cares... but if you do not care then why the need to try to elevate yourself or reduce those around you to less than what you perceive yourself to be?
I've never seen you put people down Sal and I'm sorry if I have offended you. Please consider any strong comments I make as directed at others who put me down as a child, closed minded, arrogant etc (which I repeat is not something you personally do).

Originally posted by ~Sal~
My intent was not to minimize your personal experiences or to lessen the profoundness of their impact upon your life. Rather my comment was to say that their life altering experiences may have led them in a different direction than the rest of the pack. It does not make them wrong NOR childish simply because they have drawn a different conclusion than most.
I agree. I would prefer those comments are directed at others in this thread (Dan and STOp spring to mind). Afterall, it was me who explicitly raised the issue you are here reiterating.


Originally posted by ~Sal~
If they think that they are "right" and it gives them peace and contentment... then why belittle them for it?
I don't. I'm just pointing out that, as you say, them declaring they are right is done to bring themselves peace and contentment - not because they have access to some higher truth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob
My point is mystics and theists commonly say disbelievers are "like children".
------------------------
Blob, could be that you have misinterpreted my use of the words"like children."
I used this phrase only as a comparison to a person that has not self-experienced that which is in discussion. Children being only somewhat inexperienced in many things-not meant as a derogatory term.
Could be that you are of a young age and took this personal, I do not know your age. Your writing seems educated, yet has a hint of inexperience. This is not derogatory for experience comes with time served.
I have enjoyed many conversations with my friends of all ages here at the forum.
Sometimes I may seem short on patience when told in essence that I do not know what the hell I am talking about merely because the accusing person has not had the experiences that I have had in this life. Not because it effects me personally, but because it effects another reader that may be seeking answers.

When I was a small child and knew some things before they happened and had insights into things others did not discuss I worried about my very sanity. Understand that in that time period people did not publicly speak of such things and few books were available to me. I consulted a few others for explainations among them a minister. He told me it was of the Devil and to fight such things. For years this statement worried me as a child until I met others with similar happenings in their life.
I now try to encourage others to fully explore life and to utililze any "gifts" they may have. Not to have them hide or fear that which comes naturally. Why it is not prevelent in all people I do not know. Yet, I know it exists from personal experience.
Sure, there are what I call "phoney psychics" that rely on the vulnerability of certain people to make money, but I have had the pleasure of knowing some extraordinary people that live quite lives and help people in quiet ways.
These abilities are uneffected by those that disbelieve their existance.

Once again, understand that no personal derogotory statements were directed at you personally

Thanks for speaking to me like I'm a human being Dan.

I do take issue with this though...
Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob Blob, could be that you have misinterpreted my use of the words"like children."
....Could be that you are of a young age and took this personal, I do not know your age. Your writing seems educated, yet has a hint of inexperience. This is not derogatory for experience comes with time served.
I am not young nor inexperienced. I have lived in three different continents and speak swahili. I have an academic career and am about to start a phd as a mature student. I have my family; and friends and colleagues from all over the world. I also do some substitute teaching in tough inner city schools and am not bad at it.

I've seen and done a lot of wierd, wonderful and or stupid things and many consider me mature for my age.

Should I be embarrassed to have it suggested I post like a young, inexperienced person? Or should you be embarrassed for having been unable to perceive me? Perhaps you misunderstand me for lack of experience, Dan.

I can't help wonder what makes me seem young. Perhaps it is my enthusiastic support for science; my readiness to trust authority.

Or perhaps you suspect I lack experience with not the worldly but the other-worldly. Yet even this is not so.

In fact, although I have never believed in god, until about the age of 25 I was "open minded". I believed, on and off, that perhaps I was a reincarnation of a Jew killed in the holocaust, on account of inexplicable revelations I made at the age of 3 years old. I grew up in a non-religious house where ghosts and presences were claimed and accepted. Not often, but it happened. I also posted an account (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9978&perpage=&pagenumber=2) of strange sleep experiences I have had in my first contribution to this forum.

So Dan, I have to reject your assertion of childishness and inexperience on my part. My skepticism of mysticism is based on at least some knowledge and experience of what it is I disbelieve. But otherwise thanks for the nice post.

Originally posted by Blob
I'm British. Polite but insulting is our culture.

I should have picked up on that since those are my roots and experience. Sorry.

Ok, back to ur discussion....

They protest the possibility of being wrong. Incessently.

I think we have a different interpretation on the quote "She doth protest too much". To me it means someone who perhaps says no, no don't when in reality they mean yes.

But to get back to your point, we likely do deny the possibility of being wrong incessantly because it is a personal experience which is entirely different than book knowledge. I know for me when reading a book or to make it more "AllForums" in nature, a few of VilePagan's poems have made me catch my breath or pause when reading a line or two. It is because those particular lines reach beyond mere words on a page and touch a personal memory, experience or happening. Knowledge does not do that for me. Knowledge excites me in a different way...

So as far as held beliefs go about other powers, one would naturally feel their personal experience after examining it or perhaps even denying it for a time to be correct.

If you are going from a purely factual perspective, you may not personally own that perspective so if later it is proved to be incorrect you do not have to "examine" your whole world. You accept another theory and move on.


My point is mystics and theists commonly say disbelievers are "like children". I say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We are all childish:

Once again this could be merely a difference in word interpretation. I do not see "child like" as a bad thing. In fact to me "child like" is a wonderful thing that I hope to never lose. There are so many times that the wonder of something will elicit a child-like response from me.

Also I come from a Christian base and Christ does in fact say that in order to believe we must become as children.

On the other hand I try to avoid childish behavior. Much to my shame I sometimes fail.



You assume happiness is better than wisdom. Maybe; but personally I'm not decided.

Actually, I do not believe that it is possible to be happy unless one has acquired wisdom. To me wisdom is a quality which is earned by experiencing the shitty things that life throws at us and then taking that crap and making it work for us by stretching and growing and thus becoming more loving and accepting of our selves and thus others.

As for knowledge though I truly believe wisdom far exceeds knowledge. My mother had a grade 8 education. You would never have guessed that when meeting her for she was one of the wisest, and kindest people ever. Although she really could swipe at you with that cold British humour. But one does not have to have vast knowledge to be wise.

I've never seen you put people down Sal and I'm sorry if I have offended you. Please consider any strong comments I make as directed at others who put me down as a child, closed minded, arrogant etc (which I repeat is not something you personally do).

That was an incredibly kind thing to say and I thank you. Sometimes though I must confess I have to delete a whole post and start over again because I have (gone at someone) and I know I can sound exceedingly harsh. Must be those British roots.
Actually though, I was not personally offended in the least. I am too old to be offended so easily.

The reason perhaps I went at you was probably more about the tone of your post which put my back up and that was just my hot tempered reaction... so... I too apologize if I sounded harsh.

As for an access to a higher truth... damn right I do... :D ok... kidding... well not really, but sort of....

Catch ya in another post on mysticism... :) :D

Actually will make a few comments on your post to Dan but will have to do it later...

Ya know, reading this topic immediately put me in mind of something very funny..

Has anyone here seen the DVD version of the movie "The Incredibles"?

For those that haven't, there is a special mini movie called "Jack Jack Attacks" about a baby with very special supernatural powers that he was far too young to either understand or control. This show had me laughing almost to tears :D

wat's supernatural is essential natural